Dip Game 2 Game Over

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:53 pm

Welcome back. Hope she's recovering nicely!

SpaceLord · Post by **SpaceLord** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:09 pm

I also wish your wife well.

Europe, on the other hand, will fall to the Limeys.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:42 pm

st_dysan wrote:Ok guys, Turkey is back and after amassing my 140k troops for an attack on Iraq, Remus has my moves. Sorry bout the hold but my wife just had surgery last week so my orders were all centered around my 5 yr old.

Plus I was very busy getting a bandwagon going on Remus, and as many of you know that was successful, so that was more of the real reason. I will recover..or at least try

carry on

Here's hoping for a speedy recovery for your missus.

However, I should point out the flaw in your strategy - at this time (1901), Turkey (Ottoman Empire) already controlled Iraq.

By the way, Remus, you should have my moves, so PM me if you don't.

st_dysan · Post by **st_dysan** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:10 pm

She had shoulder surgery to repair a tear, it was successful and she's on the mend, it just takes awhile for the recovery, and she's meaner than usual so feel sorry for me not her.

She's doing great, thanks for all the well wishes.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:50 pm

By the way, it's a lock that at some point I am going to send a PM to the wrong person, with comical results (and possibly tragic results for my country).

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:21 am

Results for Fall, 1901 (Movement)
General Notices:
No retreating units; retreat phase skipped.
Order resolution completed on 12-Jul-2007 at 02:24:08 GMT-05:00

Order Results:
Austria:
Austria: F alb -> adr
Austria: A ser -> bul
Austria: A vie -> bud

England:
Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 1.

England: F nth -> bel
Bounced with ruh (1 against 1).
England: F nwg -> nwy
England: A yor -> lon

France:
Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 2.

France: A gas -> spa
France: F mao -> iri
France: A spa -> por

Germany:
Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 3.

Germany: F hol Supports A ruh -> bel
Germany: A kie -> den
Germany: A ruh -> bel

Italy:
Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 2.

Italy: A apu -> tun
Convoy path taken: apu→ion→tun.
Italy: F ion Convoys A apu -> tun
Italy: A ven -> tri

Russia:
Supply centers were gained. Units that may be built: 2.

Russia: F bla Supports A ser -> bul
Russia: F bot Convoys A lvn -> swe
Russia: A lvn -> swe
Convoy path taken: lvn→bot→swe.
Russia: A ukr -> rum

Turkey:
Turkey: F ank Holds
Turkey: A con -> bul
Bounced with ser (1 against 1).
Turkey: A smy -> con
Failed because Turkey: A con -> bul failed.

Build Orders due Thursday 11:59 PM EST

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:47 pm

Results for Fall, 1901 (Adjustment)
General Notices:
Order resolution completed on 12-Jul-2007 at 23:50:19 GMT-05:00

Order Results:
Austria: No Build

England:
England: Builds F lvp

France:
France: Builds F bre
France: Builds F mar

Germany:
Germany: Builds F ber
Germany: Builds F kie
Germany: Builds A mun

Italy:
Italy: Builds F nap
Italy: Builds A ven

Russia:
Russia: Builds A sev
Russia: Builds F stp/nc

Turkey: No Build

Spring 1902 Orders due Monday 11:59 PM EST

Cesare · Post by **Cesare** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:35 am

Austin · Post by **Austin** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:19 am

NO! Not my precious England! Oh wait, wrong game. phew...

SpaceLord · Post by **SpaceLord** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:23 am

Austin wrote:NO! Not my precious England! Oh wait, wrong game. phew...

My only hope:

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:36 pm

Bump to remind of orders needed.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:40 am

Results for Spring, 1902 (Movement)
General Notices:
Order resolution completed on 17-Jul-2007 at 13:33:51 GMT-05:00

Order Results:
Austria:
Austria: F adr Supports A bud -> tri
Austria: A bud -> tri
Austria: A bul -> ser

England:
England: F lvp Holds
England: A lon Holds
England: F nth Holds
England: F nwy Supports F nth
Support cut by Move from St. Petersburg.
Dislodged from stp (2 against 1).

France:
France: F bre -> eng
France: F iri Supports F bre -> eng
France: F mar -> spa/sc
France: A por Holds
France: A spa -> gas

Germany:
Germany: A bel Holds
Germany: F ber -> kie
Germany: A den Holds
Germany: F hol Supports F kie -> hel
Germany: F kie -> hel
Germany: A mun -> ber

Italy:
Italy: F ion Convoys A tun -> gre
Italy: F nap -> apu
Italy: A tri -> vie
Italy: A tun -> gre
Convoy path taken: tun→ion→gre.
Italy: A ven -> tri
Bounced with bud (1 against 1).

Russia:
Russia: F bla Supports A sev -> arm
Russia: F bot -> bal
Russia: A rum -> bul
Russia: A sev -> arm
Russia: F stp/nc -> nwy
Russia: A swe Supports F stp/nc -> nwy

Turkey:
Turkey: F ank Supports A con
Turkey: A con Holds
Turkey: A smy -> arm
Bounced with sev (1 against 1).

Retreat for Spring 1902 orders due Tuesday 11:59 PM EST

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:10 am

Are these more automated moves for Turkey?

If st_dysan wasn't able to play, he should've passed his position to someone who wouldn't throw the game through inattention, apathy, or distraction.

SpaceLord · Post by **SpaceLord** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:22 am

Wow, what a crazy course of events.

I made 3 agreements with three players, and not one, not two, but all three were broken by the other party before the end of 1902.

Nice.

Ah well. I will see if I can hang on a bit longer.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:46 pm

I have made an error in this turn. Spacelord, it will not effect the situation in the North so please plan your retreat. The map will likely look different before the Fall 1902 begins. I will edit the above turn summary and results post to reflact the changes once made.

st_dysan · Post by **st_dysan** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:58 pm

Hey all, let me respond. I sent my orders last night at about 4 or 5 pm eastern. Remus stated that he might possibly have accidently deleted them. I checked my PM sentbox and my pm to Remus is not there. So I'm not so sure after typing them and sending them, they didnt actually get sent, at any rate Remus didn't get them. Remus has offered to redo the turn with my moves. I assured him that I would give him my original moves with no consideration to what everyone else did. I wanted everone else to know and I think its important that everyone agrees cuz its kind of equivalent to hitler issueing the orders for Barbarossa and them not going out, events continue.

Anyway, I hope that explains it, I'm still here and actively in the game.

Turkey out

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:05 pm

The wife's shoulder excuse was better

st_dysan · Post by **st_dysan** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:13 pm

Well they are gonna operate on the other one shortly, but I'll save that excuse for some future forum game

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:17 pm

As st_dysan's moves did not alter the map from what was posted I do not think anyone has a complaint. The only change you will note is in the results write-up where it is explaining what happened with holds and who got bounced where.

SpaceLord · Post by **SpaceLord** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:19 pm

st_dysan wrote:Well they are gonna operate on the other one shortly, but I'll save that excuse for some future forum game

As long as you don't try that a third time, on a different shoulder.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:29 pm

Remus West wrote:As st_dysan's moves did not alter the map from what was posted I do not think anyone has a complaint.

Sounds good. Glad it's you in the game, st_dysan, and not an autopilot.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:31 pm

edit has been made. as noted above, the only difference is in the write up of Turkey's and Russia's moves, the end results are the same.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:50 pm

Do we have a rule about whether diplomacy (i.e., PMs) should take place during Retreat and Build phases?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:Do we have a rule about whether diplomacy (i.e., PMs) should take place during Retreat and Build phases?

Good question - I've been assuming that the answer is yes, since that's how I've always played it (admittedly, the diplomacy during these phases tended to be briefer and less formal).

I would think yes, unless there's a specific rule against it, since it's relevant to where parties put their units, which is a proper subject of negotiation & diplomacy.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:05 pm

Also, this is a nitpicky question, but in cases like this:

Russia:
Russia: F bla Supports A sev -> arm
Russia: F bot -> bal
Russia: A rum -> bul
Russia: A sev -> arm

Turkey: A smy -> arm
Bounced with sev (1 against 1).

Shouldn't the result be "Bounced with sev (1 against 2)"? Sev is moving in with two units of force (the unit with a support) whereas Smy is moving in with one unit of force. So shouldn't it be 1 against 2? Otherwise it looks like they should bounce, with nobody in the square.

Again, it's nitpicky, but I'm just curious.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:11 pm

El Guapo wrote:Also, this is a nitpicky question, but in cases like this:

Russia:
Russia: F bla Supports A sev -> arm
Russia: F bot -> bal
Russia: A rum -> bul
Russia: A sev -> arm

Turkey: A smy -> arm
Bounced with sev (1 against 1).
Shouldn't the result be "Bounced with sev (1 against 2)"? Sev is moving in with two units of force (the unit with a support) whereas Smy is moving in with one unit of force. So shouldn't it be 1 against 2? Otherwise it looks like they should bounce, with nobody in the square.

Again, it's nitpicky, but I'm just curious.

For some reason the game returns it like that. I agree with you about the wording but I am just pasting the results the game prints out.

As for Diplomacy during retreat and build phases, the answer is yes, feel free. There is always discussion between any submited orders and both builds and retreats are submitted orders. I give less time for these discussions since there is rarely need for lengthy discussion about them. If people feel they will need more time for these phases I can extend it but would like to set a rule as to the time limit on them now and stick with it the rest of the way. So far I have been making builds and retreats due the day after I post updates.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:33 pm

El Guapo wrote:I would think yes, unless there's a specific rule against it, since it's relevant to where parties put their units, which is a proper subject of negotiation & diplomacy.

I ask because Remus mentioned that he's relying on the 2k4thEd rules, and they state that

Rules p. 17, sec. 4 wrote:After all the orders have been revealed and read, the moves made and the conflicts resolves, any dislodged (defeated) units make their retreat. These retreats are written down (just like orders) and are revealed at once. No diplomacy or discussion takes place prior to writing retreat orders -- all countries are on their own.

Concerning builds, the rules also state that

Rules p. 17, sec. 5 wrote:As with retreats, gaining and losing units (collectively known as "adjustments") are written and exposed simultaneously without discussion or diplomacy of any kind.

I mention this not because I favor enforcing those rules, but because Remus said he was following the rulebook and I wanted to know how strictly and whether he was declaring an exception here.

I find those two rules silly for an internet game-by-PM stretched out over days or weeks (even though they might be meaningful for a face-to-face game lasting only a few hours).

What do y'all think? And Remus: What's your ruling?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:48 pm

El Guapo wrote:Shouldn't the result be "Bounced with sev (1 against 2)"? Sev is moving in with two units of force (the unit with a support) whereas Smy is moving in with one unit of force. So shouldn't it be 1 against 2? Otherwise it looks like they should bounce, with nobody in the square.

I think the idea behind the wording (provided by jDip) is to make resolution more intuitive.

If 2 units head east from Carson City toward Utah, and 1 unit heads west from Cheyenne toward Utah, what happens in Utah? One of the eastbound units from Nevada collides with one of the westbound units from Wyoming, and they cancel each other out. Smash!

What else happens in Utah? Another eastbound unit from Nevada enters, bumps into nothing (i.e., finds no opposition), and takes Utah.

Likewise, if total attack from west = 5 and total attack from east = 3, then 3 bump 3 and 2 bump... nothing (and thus prevail).

Think of as you would think of canceling out like terms in math. Compared with "3 bump 2 and 3 wins" JDip's verbiage is (a) just as accurate, (b) more literal, and (c) arguably more helpful in resolving really thorny batches of orders (i.e., thin out anything pair that cancel one another and see what's left.)

(What's weird, though, is how the single defender ends up canceled by the primary attacker, leaving the support to usher in the victor; it should be that the single defender cancels with the supporter, leaving the victor to march on in....)

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:05 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
El Guapo wrote:I would think yes, unless there's a specific rule against it, since it's relevant to where parties put their units, which is a proper subject of negotiation & diplomacy.
I ask because Remus mentioned that he's relying on the 2k4thEd rules, and they state that
Rules p. 17, sec. 4 wrote:After all the orders have been revealed and read, the moves made and the conflicts resolves, any dislodged (defeated) units make their retreat. These retreats are written down (just like orders) and are revealed at once. No diplomacy or discussion takes place prior to writing retreat orders -- all countries are on their own.
Concerning builds, the rules also state that
Rules p. 17, sec. 5 wrote:As with retreats, gaining and losing units (collectively known as "adjustments") are written and exposed simultaneously without discussion or diplomacy of any kind.
I mention this not because I favor enforcing those rules, but because Remus said he was following the rulebook and I wanted to know how strictly and whether he was declaring an exception here.

I find those two rules silly for an internet game-by-PM stretched out over days or weeks (even though they might be meaningful for a face-to-face game lasting only a few hours).

What do y'all think? And Remus: What's your ruling?

Posted above. Face to face games we have always done 15 minute diplomacy for Spring and Fall then 5 min for Build and Retreat although in all honesty most build/retreats were open discussions at the table then hastily written down. Not a lot of backstabbing going on in those phases but it is possible. I will maintain the 1 day period for these phases but feel free to PM all you want whenever you want.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:59 am

Results for Spring, 1902 (Retreat)
General Notices:
Order resolution completed on 18-Jul-2007 at 01:02:44 GMT-05:00

Order Results:
Austria:
England:
England: F nwy -> nwg
France:
Germany:
Italy:
Russia:
Turkey:

Fall 1902 Orders due Friday 11:59 PM EST

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:06 pm

Bump to Remind.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:41 am

Results for Fall, 1902 (Movement)
General Notices:
All dislodged units destroyed; advancing to next phase.
Order resolution completed on 21-Jul-2007 at 04:34:16 GMT-05:00

Order Results:
Austria:
Austria: F adr -> tri
Bounced with ven (1 against 1).
Austria: A ser Supports A tri -> bud
Support cut by Move from Greece.
Austria: A tri -> bud

England:
England: F lvp Holds
England: A lon Holds
England: F nth -> edi
England: F nwg -> cly

France:
France: F eng Supports F hol -> nth
France: A gas -> bre
France: F iri -> lvp
Bounced with lvp (1 against 1).
France: A por -> spa
France: F spa/sc -> mao

Germany:
Germany: A bel Holds
Germany: A ber Holds
Germany: A den Holds
Germany: F hel Supports F hol -> nth
Germany: F hol -> nth
Germany: F kie Supports A den

Italy:
Italy: F apu -> ven
Italy: A gre -> ser
Bounced with ser (1 against 1).
Italy: F ion -> adr
Failed because Austria: F adr -> tri failed.
Italy: A ven -> tri
Italy: A vie Supports A ven -> tri

Russia:
Russia: A arm -> ank
Bounced with ank (1 against 2).
Russia: F bal Supports A swe
Russia: F bla -> con
Russia: A bul Supports F bla -> con
Russia: F nwy Holds
Russia: A swe Supports F nwy

Turkey:
The Army in Constantinople cannot retreat; unit destroyed.

Turkey: F ank Holds
Turkey: A con -> bul
Bounced with bul (1 against 1).
Dislodged from bla (2 against 1).
Turkey: A smy Supports F ank

Orders for Build/Remove due Monday 11:59 PM EST

For some reason the game did not print the supply centers gained as it has in the past so....this is my quick count, please check and notify me of any errors.

Austria - 1 lost, must remove a unit
England - 1 lost, must remove a unit
France - no change
Germany - no change
Italy - 2 gained, build 2 units
Russia - 3 gained, build 3 units
Turkey - 2 lost, both units destroyed, no build/remove.

Again, Build/Remove orders due Monday 11:59 PM EST

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:35 pm

Remus West wrote:For some reason the game did not print the supply centers gained as it has in the past so....this is my quick count, please check and notify me of any errors.

I don't know what governs JDip's inclusion of Build rights in the turn report. However, you can retrieve the info with CTRL-U or with Reports >> Turn Status. Scroll down for the totals.

jDip wrote: Supply Center Ownership:

Austria: Budapest, Serbia (2 total).
England: Edinburgh, Liverpool, London (3 total).
France: Brest, Marseilles, Paris, Portugal, Spain (5 total).
Germany: Belgium, Berlin, Denmark, Holland, Kiel, Munich (6 total).
Italy: Greece, Naples, Rome, Trieste, Tunis, Venice, Vienna (7 total).
Russia: Bulgaria, Istanbul, Moscow, Norway, Rumania, Sevastopol, Leningrad, Sweden, Warsaw (9 total).
Turkey: Ankara, Smyrna (2 total).

Adjustments:

Austria: 2 supply centers, 3 units. 1 unit must be removed.
England: 3 supply centers, 4 units. 1 unit must be removed.
France: 5 supply centers, 5 units. No units to build or remove.
Germany: 6 supply centers, 6 units. No units to build or remove.
Italy: 7 supply centers, 5 units. 2 units may be built.
Russia: 9 supply centers, 6 units. 3 units may be built.
Turkey: 2 supply centers, 2 units. No units to build or remove.

Remus West wrote: Austria - 1 lost, must remove a unit
England - 1 lost, must remove a unit
France - no change
Germany - no change
Italy - 2 gained, build 2 units
Russia - 3 gained, build 3 units
Turkey - 2 lost, both units destroyed, no build/remove.

Turkey lost 1 supply center, and 1 unit was destroyed. No build/remove.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:56 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
Remus West wrote:For some reason the game did not print the supply centers gained as it has in the past so....this is my quick count, please check and notify me of any errors.
I don't know what governs JDip's inclusion of Build rights in the turn report. However, you can retrieve the info with CTRL-U or with Reports >> Turn Status. Scroll down for the totals.

jDip wrote: Supply Center Ownership:

Austria: Budapest, Serbia (2 total).
England: Edinburgh, Liverpool, London (3 total).
France: Brest, Marseilles, Paris, Portugal, Spain (5 total).
Germany: Belgium, Berlin, Denmark, Holland, Kiel, Munich (6 total).
Italy: Greece, Naples, Rome, Trieste, Tunis, Venice, Vienna (7 total).
Russia: Bulgaria, Istanbul, Moscow, Norway, Rumania, Sevastopol, Leningrad, Sweden, Warsaw (9 total).
Turkey: Ankara, Smyrna (2 total).

Adjustments:

Austria: 2 supply centers, 3 units. 1 unit must be removed.
England: 3 supply centers, 4 units. 1 unit must be removed.
France: 5 supply centers, 5 units. No units to build or remove.
Germany: 6 supply centers, 6 units. No units to build or remove.
Italy: 7 supply centers, 5 units. 2 units may be built.
Russia: 9 supply centers, 6 units. 3 units may be built.
Turkey: 2 supply centers, 2 units. No units to build or remove.

Remus West wrote: Austria - 1 lost, must remove a unit
England - 1 lost, must remove a unit
France - no change
Germany - no change
Italy - 2 gained, build 2 units
Russia - 3 gained, build 3 units
Turkey - 2 lost, both units destroyed, no build/remove.
Turkey lost 1 supply center, and 1 unit was destroyed. No build/remove.

Uh, JDIP and I agree on Turkey. Not sure where you got 1, but they lost both Bulgaria and Constantinople this year.

This map is good for seeing who owns what but sucks for moves. I will post a similar map at the end of each year from now on.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:13 pm

Actually, Bulgaria was owned by Austria. If you have been using jDip the whole time you can replay the history by hitting ctrl+page up or ctrl+page down or just by going to the history tab.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:56 pm

Matthew wrote:Actually, Bulgaria was owned by Austria. If you have been using jDip the whole time you can replay the history by hitting ctrl+page up or ctrl+page down or just by going to the history tab.

Ah, you and Grund are both correct, mixing up the two games in my head. Good thing the game does not rely on my head.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:15 pm

Remus West wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:Turkey lost 1 supply center, and 1 unit was destroyed. No build/remove.
Uh, JDIP and I agree on Turkey. Not sure where you got 1, but they lost both Bulgaria and Constantinople this year.

That's pretty cool, given that Turkey hadn't successfully moved at all during the game up to that point. Meanwhile, Russia had offered support from Bulgaria to the fleet that invaded from the Black Sea.

But I guess you and JDip should just have your little party and not let the likes of me bother you.

{Edit: Blast! Matthew and your late repentance negated the force of my snark....}

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:13 pm

Results for Fall, 1902 (Adjustment)
General Notices:
Order resolution completed on 24-Jul-2007 at 12:07:05 GMT-05:00

Order Results:
Austria:
Austria: Removes F adr

England:
England: Removes F cly

France:

Germany:

Italy:
Italy: Builds F nap
Italy: Builds A rom

Russia:
Russia: Builds F sev
Russia: Builds F stp/nc
Russia: Builds A war

Turkey:

Srping 1903 Orders due Friday 11:59 PM EST

SpaceLord · Post by **SpaceLord** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:18 pm

Bah.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:18 pm

Nothing to see here. What may have been here to see does not happen until next week. I'm more of an idiot than originally thought though.