[WW] Crimson Moon III - Game ends in a Draw?

[triggercut]

As for the wolves killing a claimant to the Coroner role, that idea is just stupid. The Coroner has no way to prove himself the way Silky and pr0ner are proven. NO WAY the wolves take a player the can cast doubt on instead of taking out a known innocent. NO WAY.

B. We wolves kill Zurai overnight. Woohoo! 5-2 is the spread.

5-2 spread with 2 certain knowns and no way to get rid of both before the final day if the village gets one of you.

Once again, this is not to say that triggercut is a liar. This is to say there is no way for the village to be certain of EITHER before tomorrow. You may be able to make more sense of this when I am gone.

Please do not make up your mind before all the information is in.

I have profound hope that you are indeed a wolf and that it will be borne out by my scan of your dead body tonight.

If you're an innocent, it's likely we'll lose. I put the blame for that particular hypothetical at 33% me, 67% you. If you're a wolf, you've given it one helluva shot with a deck stacked against you. If you're a villager, I have no idea what in god's name you've been doing.

That said, I think you're a wolf, trying to subtly build Zurai's case for him.

[Zurai]

Right. I knew I was the Village Coroner, and hence not a wolf. What were you hiding, wolfboy?

Nothing. I said I believed Lassr was innocent. Twice directly in response to your claims that he might not be, as a matter of fact.

My task (you know, to be helpful to the village and not ignore them) was to show Lassr's innocence while trying to remain hidden as the Coroner.

And my task was to stay alive long enough to provide useful information for the village. I had already stated many, many times that I considered Lassr to be innocent. There wasn't anything else constructive I could do at that point. Considering that you were after my blood from the word "go", I decided that laying low after Remus distracted you from me on day 2 was the wisest course. Continuining to fight against your fanatical arguments would have done no one any good but the wolves; instead I laid low for another day and got another nighttime scan, and was able to determine that tru1cy was the seer, which means Austin was a wolf.

[triggercut]

BTW, let's try this:

I report Remus as wolf:

1. Lynch me that day.
2. Lynch Zurai day after. Game over, village wins.

I report Remus as innocent.

1. Lynch Zurai that day
2. We figure out who between Mr. Bubbles and Newcastle is the stealth wolf.

I will not be killed by wolves before Zurai dies by the lynch. If the wolves kill me, they prove Zurai is a liar.

[Zurai]

I report Remus as innocent.

1. Lynch Zurai that day
2. We figure out who between Mr. Bubbles and Newcastle is the stealth wolf.

And where are you in all this, hmm? That sounds an awful lot like a wolf setting up two villagers to be lynched.

[triggercut]

And my task was to stay alive long enough to provide useful information for the village. I had already stated many, many times that I considered Lassr to be innocent. There wasn't anything else constructive I could do at that point. Considering that you were after my blood from the word "go", I decided that laying low after Remus distracted you from me on day 2 was the wisest course. Continuining to fight against your fanatical arguments would have done no one any good but the wolves; instead I laid low for another day and got another nighttime scan, and was able to determine that tru1cy was the seer, which means Austin was a wolf.

No one was "distracted" from you. You've always been lead wolf suspect in my mind since you changed your vote before Lassr's lynch (and the whole "Don't lie to prove you point" on that has been put to rest now.) I'd be happy to go after you except for Remus doing things that all but begged be considered as the most likely to be a wolf.

[triggercut]

I report Remus as innocent.

1. Lynch Zurai that day
2. We figure out who between Mr. Bubbles and Newcastle is the stealth wolf.

And where are you in all this, hmm? That sounds an awful lot like a wolf setting up two villagers to be lynched.

In the remote possibility that Remus is innocent, we have to decide whether you or I am more believable as the Coroner.

I think I am. I don't even think it's close. For one thing, I've got actual truth on my side. (Hey, Zurai, when you gonna rationalize the reasoning behind me coming out as Coroner to counter-claim you?? Why'd I do that?)

If Remus is innocent, we have to assume he was playing the most head-up-the-ass game of Werewolf ever played, openly defending two werewolves. We lynch you and take our chances. If our chances include me, I'm cool with that, even though it delivers the game to the wolves; that loss won't be on my head.

[Silky]

Look Zurai. I am not trying to do anything other than what I think is best for the village. If you are indeed the coroner then I will apologize now for being so publicly suspicious of you.

I understand that what you are saying is that of all the things going on on day 1 I was the one that sent your wolf radar off. Neither one of us could or should argue that point. With that being the case you felt your duty was to keep your vote on me unless something more suspicious came up or if it was good for the health of the game (i.e perma side lock).

All I want you to understand is wolf or no your actions set off my wolf detector. I have done the exact same thing when I was a bad guy in these games. When I see the same things I have done from the other side of the fence I naturally get suspicious. This has been compounded by the claim or coroner and then again by the counter claim of coroner.

Perhaps I am being blinded by that. I promise you that if I live throughout the night that I will do my best to throw out my predispositions and look at it all over again with objective eyes.

[Austin]

[Zurai]

(Hey, Zurai, when you gonna rationalize the reasoning behind me coming out as Coroner to counter-claim you?? Why'd I do that?)

I already did a few posts up in response to pr0ner. I in return asked what gain I would have gotten from stepping forward like this if I was a wolf and no one has yet to give me a response there.

For the record I don't believe it was a good play for you to spoof being the Coroner like this. Pr0ner is right that you could have just sat tight. That's the only way I can rationalize the facts I have at hand, however: Lassr was innocent, tru1cy was the Seer, and I am the Coroner.

Look Zurai. I am not trying to do anything other than what I think is best for the village.

...

All I want you to understand is wolf or no your actions set off my wolf detector. I have done the exact same thing when I was a bad guy in these games. When I see the same things I have done from the other side of the fence I naturally get suspicious. This has been compounded by the claim or coroner and then again by the counter claim of coroner.

I have no problem with that. If you read carefully, I've never had a problem in this game with being called suspicious. I have never played a WW game where I was considered NOT suspicious by the majority of players. Something about me just radiates suspicion.

The thing I have a problem with is that people continually misrepresent what I have said, even when I took the time to clarify the point.

[Remus West]

BTW, let's try this:

I report Remus as wolf:

1. Lynch me that day.
2. Lynch Zurai day after. Game over, village wins.

I will not be killed by wolves before Zurai dies by the lynch. If the wolves kill me, they prove Zurai is a liar.[/quote]Lynching BOTH of you assures the wolves victory.

Village, we have 1 repeat, ONE miss after today. You can not go with a plan that involves lynching BOTH triggercut AND Zurai that assures the wolves their victory.

Whichever one you determine to believe tomorrow you must trust to the end be that Zurai or triggercut.

[Zurai]

Man, my grammar in that last post was horrid!

I in return asked what gain I would have gotten from stepping forward like this if I was a wolf and no one has yet to give me a response there.

should be:

In return I asked, "What gain would there be for me in stepping forward as the Coroner, if I were a wolf?" -- and no one has given me a response to that, yet.

If you read carefully, I've never had a problem in this game with being called suspicious. I have never played a WW game where I was considered NOT suspicious by the majority of players.

should be:

If you read carefully, I've never had a problem (in this game) with being called suspicious. I have yet to play a WW game where the majority of players didn't think I was suspicious.

[Remus West]

In the remote possibility that Remus is innocent, we have to decide whether you or I am more believable as the Coroner.

I think I am. I don't even think it's close.

All the more reason for a wolf to do it.

For one thing, I've got actual truth on my side. (Hey, Zurai, when you gonna rationalize the reasoning behind me coming out as Coroner to counter-claim you?? Why'd I do that?)

already addressed.

If Remus is innocent, we have to assume he was playing the most head-up-the-ass game of Werewolf ever played, openly defending two werewolves. We lynch you and take our chances. If our chances include me, I'm cool with that, even though it delivers the game to the wolves; that loss won't be on my head.

Cool, great, you get me lynched because I did not agree with you methods, methods WHICH YOU HAVE ADMITTED WERE ODD, and I have my head up my ass? I never once defended Austin so stop with that. I said I did not agree with the means used to put his head on the plate before Unagi came forward. I did not stand in the way of lynching him. I even said I thought it was the best idea given the claims. After that I pointed out the possibility of his having been the one telling the truth. It was possible. It was not likely but it was possible. Particularly with Silky saying he thought the wolves would allow Unagi to live. Remind me never to disagree with the methods of the mighty idiot again. It is your own convictions that are leading the village to doom. If you are a wolf then it has likely been well played. If it is as a villager then you have sucked it up huge.

[Silky]

I know the feeling Zurai. I have played so many of these I lost count. At least 10 I think. Once I was a bad guy. That game was fun for me. Twice I was a seer and I was lynched first turn in both I really don't know why I bother most times. I have more up and down's than Paris Hilton.

[Remus West]

By the way, could we get a friggin guillotine? The guy who runs this gallows sucks. I don't want to spend the next few days standing here with my dick in the wind. Kill me and let me rest. At least its a clean death instead of being someone's midnight snack.

[Remus West]

Perhaps I am being blinded by that. I promise you that if I live throughout the night that I will do my best to throw out my predispositions and look at it all over again with objective eyes.

Thanks, thats all I'm asking the village to do tomorrow.


One last parting shot at convincing you all though. How many times have I, as a bad guy, even tried to save another bad guy? Why would I go so far out on a limb in your eyes and thus give you a 2 for 1 special?


By the way, the answers are:
Only 1 time, when we were vampires and we needed Austin to make it through the day to convert a villager that night. I was trying to sacrifice myself for him so we would have a shot. It worked out a little better than that.

In this game I wouldn't. None of the wolves are more important than another.

[triggercut]

(Hey, Zurai, when you gonna rationalize the reasoning behind me coming out as Coroner to counter-claim you?? Why'd I do that?)

I already did a few posts up in response to pr0ner. I in return asked what gain I would have gotten from stepping forward like this if I was a wolf and no one has yet to give me a response there.

Sure. Almost too easy.

You've been mentioned again and again as a possible lynch target for day 4 tomorrow. I've brought your name up again and again. If you're a villager, you're going to try to prove your value as an innocent member of the voting bloc. If you're a wolf, claiming a Village Role is a final hail mary.[/quote]

For the record I don't believe it was a good play for you to spoof being the Coroner like this. Pr0ner is right that you could have just sat tight. That's the only way I can rationalize the facts I have at hand, however: Lassr was innocent, tru1cy was the Seer, and I am the Coroner.

"Please don't lie to make your case."

[Zurai]

You've been mentioned again and again as a possible lynch target for day 4 tomorrow. I've brought your name up again and again. If you're a villager, you're going to try to prove your value as an innocent member of the voting bloc. If you're a wolf, claiming a Village Role is a final hail mary.

Exactly. I was mentioned as a possible lynch target. If I was a wolf, and Remus is a wolf (which I'm not 100% convinced of), there'd still be 2 "safe" targets there: Newcastle and Mr. Bubbles. Considering that Mr. Bubbles really has said absolutely nothing of any worth to the village the entire game, I'd think there would be a reasonable chance to get him lynched instead. There certainly would be enough doubt for me to not get desperate enough to come forward as the single village special that cannot prove itself!

There is literally no gain for me to have come forward if indeed I was a wolf. Coming forward as the only village special that cannot prove itself to the village is suicidal.

"Please don't lie to make your case."

Ah, but unlike you, every time I've made that request I was able to prove that the other person was lieing or misrepresenting my point. You cannot.

[triggercut]

Village, we have 1 repeat, ONE miss after today. You can not go with a plan that involves lynching BOTH triggercut AND Zurai that assures the wolves their victory.

Whichever one you determine to believe tomorrow you must trust to the end be that Zurai or triggercut.

Wrong again, wolfboy.

Right now it stands 5 villagers, 2 wolves.

If Remus=wolf, it'll be 5 v 1. Wolves kill trusted, 4 v 1. I volunteer for Lynch, 3 v 1. Wolves kill anyone but Zurai, 2 v 1. Village lynches Zurai because the game didn't end when I was lynched, village wins.

If Remus is not a wolf, things get dicey.

BTW, why the heck did I go after my wolf teammate Austin so hard on Day 2, anyway? No one was accusing anyone, and then there's me, going after someone we know is a wolf, hammer and tongs. Why the heck did I do that again?

[Zurai]

BTW, why the heck did I go after my wolf teammate Austin so hard on Day 2, anyway? No one was accusing anyone, and then there's me, going after someone we know is a wolf, hammer and tongs. Why the heck did I do that again?

To put you in exactly the position you're in now:

Controlling the entire trusted block of the village like a puppet-master.

[triggercut]

Ah, but unlike you, every time I've made that request I was able to prove that the other person was lieing or misrepresenting my point. You cannot.

If you're not lying about me being the Coroner, after the game my name is Fannie Flagg.

[triggercut]

BTW, why the heck did I go after my wolf teammate Austin so hard on Day 2, anyway? No one was accusing anyone, and then there's me, going after someone we know is a wolf, hammer and tongs. Why the heck did I do that again?

To put you in exactly the position you're in now:

Controlling the entire trusted block of the village like a puppet-master.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

The wolves are on the brink of a 4:3 lead, and I decide that I'd rather control the village as puppet-master, when I can't even get half the damn rules here straight?

Sorry, not a good refutation.

[triggercut]

There is literally no gain for me to have come forward if indeed I was a wolf. Coming forward as the only village special that cannot prove itself to the village is suicidal.

Yeah, nothing to gain except the fact that you were going to be lynched, so you'd better claim to be our last special and unable to prove yourself.

Sorry, not much logic there.

[Zurai]

My impression of triggercut right now:

[triggercut]

My impression of triggercut right now:

That's really all you've got to answer with?

[Zurai]

I was trying to inject some levity into the thread.

I know, I know. Werewolf is srs bizniz. Sorry, I'll remember that in the future.

[Zurai]

BTW, why the heck did I go after my wolf teammate Austin so hard on Day 2, anyway? No one was accusing anyone, and then there's me, going after someone we know is a wolf, hammer and tongs. Why the heck did I do that again?

To put you in exactly the position you're in now:

Controlling the entire trusted block of the village like a puppet-master.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

The wolves are on the brink of a 4:3 lead, and I decide that I'd rather control the village as puppet-master, when I can't even get half the damn rules here straight?

Sorry, not a good refutation.

Really?

If I hadn't stepped forward, you would have had uncontested control of the village. That sounds like BRILLIANT wolfplay to me. I salute you for it.

Yeah, nothing to gain except the fact that you were going to be lynched, so you'd better claim to be our last special and unable to prove yourself.

Sorry, not much logic there.

You pointed out earlier that I was a potential lynch target. Now you're saying that I was absolutely, positively going to be the next person lynched.

Which is it, "wolfboy"?

[triggercut]

Zurai, you've misunderstood the question, or are stalling for time to think of an answer. I'll ask again:

Why at the start of day 2, with no villagers standing accused, would a presumptive wolf (me, in this case) not only put forth the name of a teammate (Austin, in this case), but then champion throughout the day that this particular wolf be lynched? Give your answer with knowledge that at the time, the village held a 6-3 lead, and that if the wolves had convinced the village to lynch another one of their own, that the wolves would've held the village at 4-3.

Thanks. Please answer the question this time, instead of ad-hominem attacks and then chuckling dismissal of same.

[Remus West]

BTW, why the heck did I go after my wolf teammate Austin so hard on Day 2, anyway? No one was accusing anyone, and then there's me, going after someone we know is a wolf, hammer and tongs. Why the heck did I do that again?

Because of the day 1 happenings made it VERY likely Austin was going down anyway? Because by doing so you gain the trust of the village but

For the record: this game, I have no special ability other than a certain crafty-ness.

so are not worth the Wolves attention to kill at night?

Again, I have never said you are NOT the Coroner. What I have said is the village needs to take time and make the decision tomorrow.

Let me ask you this though. If you are NOT a wolf, why would you not back off of Austin when he claimed to be the Seer? Why keep pushing for his death BEFORE Unagi countered his claim? Why would a normal villager do that? Why would the Coroner do that knowing only that Lassr was innocent and nothing more?

There are points on both sides of the equation.

Its all, sadly, going to come down to the mistaken belief that I am a wolf when I am not.

Let me ask you this though, what do you do if both Coroners tell the truth about me and tell you I am innocent? What does the village do then when it is clear you have two wolves to find?

[triggercut]

If I hadn't stepped forward, you would have had uncontested control of the village. That sounds like BRILLIANT wolfplay to me. I salute you for it.

You came out on day 3, after all votes were tabulated. I made my move on Austin at the beginning of day 2, and indeed cast the first vote against him.

You didn't answer the question.

Please do?

[Zurai]

Zurai, you've misunderstood the question, or are stalling for time to think of an answer. I'll ask again:

Why at the start of day 2, with no villagers standing accused, would a presumptive wolf (me, in this case) not only put forth the name of a teammate (Austin, in this case), but then champion throughout the day that this particular wolf be lynched? Give your answer with knowledge that at the time, the village held a 6-3 lead, and that if the wolves had convinced the village to lynch another one of their own, that the wolves would've held the village at 4-3.

Thanks. Please answer the question this time, instead of ad-hominem attacks and then chuckling dismissal of same.

I already answered that question twice: to gain control of the village.

Let's say you pushed for me, since I was actually your first vote on day 2 (not Austin, as you claim). Let's say you managed to pull that through. Yeah, there's 4 villagers to 3 wolves left, but the 2nd most powerful special is likely still alive: the Priest. Unagi already had 2 people he could trust absolutely (pr0ner and Silky), and it's nearly impossible for wolves to spoof the priest due to the way roles are assigned -- especially once they've eaten two specials who do not have minor roles.

Given that there's now a 3-villager trusted block vs a 3 wolf block, chances are the trusted block is going to be able to convince the lone untrusted villager to back them. There's even a chance that the priest gets that lone untrusted villager as his 3rd day confession. That is Game Over with a capital GO for the wolves.

Instead, they mastermind a plan to sacrifice one of their own to fish out one of the village specials (Coroner or Priest, since they know the Seer is dead) and win over the complete trust of the village. That kills at least two with one stone: it gives them an important target for their nightly kill, and it gives them at least one (possibly more) day of picking the village lynch target.

Yeah, yeah, the wolves didn't know for sure that the Priest had 2 living confessions at that point - but they have to plan for it. The priest in this game is a time bomb for the Wolves. They have to plan their entire strategy around the existance of the Priest and the Seer. They got lucky snagging tru1cy on night 2, and your brilliant play on day 2 got you Unagi's name.

As for:

You came out on day 3, after all votes were tabulated. I made my move on Austin at the beginning of day 2, and indeed cast the first vote against him.

If you'd read the thread, I've already stated that I missed Mr. Bubbles' vote on Remus. I thought there were still only 3 votes on him when I stepped forward. I'll admit it was a blunder on my part and it may yet win you the game.

[Remus West]

9 of us left? 7 v 2 if we got lucky, or 6 v 3 if we didn't.

We'd better hope Lassr was a Werewolf, or we're up against it lads.

I will do some analyzing and be back, but my radar is perking hard on Remus West.

First post of Day 2.

We should start a game sometime where Austin actually is a seer. He seems to really want to be one.

I kind of think our seer is dead. I think it was Grund. Just a hunch, no analysis beyond that.

As for Austin....dear lord.

I'm not sure I read the rules of the game correctly, but I think if you scan someone as innocent, it's probably not the best play for the seer to steer that person toward the gallows. Especially when the vote balance in teams is 8-3. That's a perilously thin margin for the village.

Austin's a wolf, bank it.

Funny thing is, I was 33% sure that Remus was innocent until today. Now I'm leaning on him as a suspect. I dunno.

This was before Unagi had even checked in regarding Austin's claim. Why would a non-Wolf want to take the chance he was wrong and Austin was actually the Seer? How could a villager be certain of it? pr0ner's reaction to the claim was completely understandable, he had been called a wolf and knew he wasn't. How could you know?

[triggercut]

Because of the day 1 happenings made it VERY likely Austin was going down anyway? Because by doing so you gain the trust of the village

So, before a single vote is cast, I decide "sorry bud, you're my teammate, but you're taking one for the team."

but

For the record: this game, I have no special ability other than a certain crafty-ness.

so are not worth the Wolves attention to kill at night?

Once again, in english? Are you wondering why I started off the game denying a role? Really? "Hey everyone, I haven't gotten a scan in yet, but I'm the Coroner!" (BTW, the reason I truly believed that Austin made a blunder by claiming two scans? When Chaos called for the wolves' day one kill, but I did nothing, I subconsciously put that into my head.)

Let me ask you this though. If you are NOT a wolf, why would you not back off of Austin when he claimed to be the Seer? Why keep pushing for his death BEFORE Unagi countered his claim? Why would a normal villager do that? Why would the Coroner do that knowing only that Lassr was innocent and nothing more?

Let's go back to the analysis here.

When I re-read tru1cy's post noting that the wolf wagons were obviously not rolling on Austin, it caused me to put a huge burden of suspicion on the latter. At the time I *knew* that Lassr and tru1cy, 2 of the 4 with votes on Austin, were absoluely innocent. If Austin was innocent, pr0ner, and Unagi had to be wolves.

At this point, I put both Lassr and Austin side by side on some paper. Why did one guy sit at 4 votes for nearly three days, while another guy went from zero to six votes in 36 hours? The first conclusion I drew was that the Wolf Wagons clearly rolled Lassr over, and that there must be at least two wolves voting Lassr to the gallows. The second part was "who were the wolves?"

Now probabilities enter it. If Austin was innocent, then Unagi and pr0ner were wolves, and either one wolf or no wolves voted for Lassr. In that situation, I was left to try to accept the idea that 5 non-wolves and 1 wolf settled on Lassr absent any really hard evidence.

I found that to be extremely, extremely improbable.

Unagi moving from Austin to Lassr seemed like the least-likely (by far) move of a wolf. That left pr0ner as the only wolf voting for Austin.

It didn't add up. Austin should've collected 2 more votes at some point early on.

Searching for clues, I latched onto tru1cy's post one more time. He had accused Austin, but then stated that there were too many innocents in the group of him, Lassr, Unagi, and pr0ner. At that point I became convinced tru1cy was the Seer, and that he either scanned Austin and found him wolfy, or scanned one of the other three and found them innocent. In any event, everything was pointing at Austin (cast the first vote against our eventual lynchee, after he'd miraculously held onto life at 4 votes).

As Austin's denials became more and more preposterous, he claimed to be the seer.

Now look at pr0ner's reaction. It isn't one of bemused "haha, no I'm not"....it's one of surprise, shock, and honestly a little anger. As someone who has been misrepresented by a lying liar in this game, I can tell you that it's no fun. pr0ner's response seemed to be honest and exactly what I'd expect if the Seer was being spoofed, and at that point I figured our seer was tru1cy and accepted that in my head as a given. I believed pr0ner, not Austin, but I'll admit my resolve was wavering a bit until Unagi's post.

[Remus West]

Let's say you pushed for me, since I was actually your first vote on day 2 (not Austin, as you claim).

He said THE first vote, not his. I think he meant the first on Austin.

Let's say you managed to pull that through. Yeah, there's 4 villagers to 3 wolves left, but the 2nd most powerful special is likely still alive: the Priest. Unagi already had 2 people he could trust absolutely (pr0ner and Silky), and it's nearly impossible for wolves to spoof the priest due to the way roles are assigned -- especially once they've eaten two specials who do not have minor roles.

eaten? if you are the Coroner and get lynched they would never know you had a role.

Given that there's now a 3-villager trusted block vs a 3 wolf block, chances are the trusted block is going to be able to convince the lone untrusted villager to back them. There's even a chance that the priest gets that lone untrusted villager as his 3rd day confession. That is Game Over with a capital GO for the wolves.

which was my point about Unagi proving himself by getting eaten. You don't want to go there if you are trying to make a point. Nobody wants to hear it. The other villagers (by this I mean pr0ner and Silky as I don't know about the rest of you) thought the Priest would live through the night.

[triggercut]

9 of us left? 7 v 2 if we got lucky, or 6 v 3 if we didn't.

We'd better hope Lassr was a Werewolf, or we're up against it lads.

I will do some analyzing and be back, but my radar is perking hard on Remus West.

First post of Day 2.

We should start a game sometime where Austin actually is a seer. He seems to really want to be one.

I kind of think our seer is dead. I think it was Grund. Just a hunch, no analysis beyond that.

As for Austin....dear lord.

I'm not sure I read the rules of the game correctly, but I think if you scan someone as innocent, it's probably not the best play for the seer to steer that person toward the gallows. Especially when the vote balance in teams is 8-3. That's a perilously thin margin for the village.

Austin's a wolf, bank it.

Funny thing is, I was 33% sure that Remus was innocent until today. Now I'm leaning on him as a suspect. I dunno.

This was before Unagi had even checked in regarding Austin's claim. Why would a non-Wolf want to take the chance he was wrong and Austin was actually the Seer? How could a villager be certain of it? pr0ner's reaction to the claim was completely understandable, he had been called a wolf and knew he wasn't. How could you know?

Austin claimed to be the seer after claiming that he truly believed Lassr was innocent after claiming that he was pretty sure Lassr was a wolf after accusing Lassr.

That looks an awful lot like a string of untruths; why when someone one vote away from being lynched claims to be the seer would any reasonable person accept it?

[Remus West]

First, I appreciate the belated analysis post. Had you posted that when you originally accused Austin rather then posting wackiness I would have been inclined to vote with you against him. I still would have pulled back right away when he claimed Seer though as I would not have wanted to take the risk.

Because of the day 1 happenings made it VERY likely Austin was going down anyway? Because by doing so you gain the trust of the village

So, before a single vote is cast, I decide "sorry bud, you're my teammate, but you're taking one for the team."

Its been done before. The first Fallen game I called Crux out when he wasn't even a suspect. He was my teammate. I used the trust earned by that move to push the rest of the village into the final fatal moves so it has been done before.

Anyway, I am not a wolf so hopefully my contribution will be worthwhile in the end. Be very careful pr0ner and think about what you have said and been done. (sorry Silky, I'm guessing you are the one to get eaten tonight as you have been more active.)

[Remus West]

Austin claimed to be the seer after claiming that he truly believed Lassr was innocent after claiming that he was pretty sure Lassr was a wolf after accusing Lassr.

That looks an awful lot like a string of untruths; why when someone one vote away from being lynched claims to be the seer would any reasonable person accept it?

Why would any reasonable person not want to give time for that claim to be proven false rather than lynch their own Seer? I have gotten an outed Seer lynched more than once as a bad guy why wouldn't folks be wary of it?

[Remus West]

Aw crap. I just realized I was leaving the wrong hints in my messages. I had left hints that I am the Weaver. Said the wolves made a tangled web, made the comment about all their eggs in one basket. Just went back and looked at CR's original PM to me and realized I am not the Weaver.

I'd like to claim I was smoking pot so couldn't be held accountable but I quit that 20 years ago.

[triggercut]

First, I appreciate the belated analysis post. Had you posted that when you originally accused Austin rather then posting wackiness I would have been inclined to vote with you against him. I still would have pulled back right away when he claimed Seer though as I would not have wanted to take the risk.

Didn't feel like I *could* post it that way at the time without giving myself up as the Coroner.

The first Fallen game I called Crux out when he wasn't even a suspect. He was my teammate. I used the trust earned by that move to push the rest of the village into the final fatal moves so it has been done before.

In that game, wasn't it done by you on the day 3 staking? Did you not do that to "pay off" PM's sent to Schroeder and others regarding your innocence? Did you not sacrifice Crux to make yourself seem an innocent?

In the case of this game, I had no PM's to follow-through on, I breezed through day 1 with no votes on my head at the time of Lassr's lynching, and the advantage of throwing Austin over for the wolves would've been far, far outweighed by trying to keep him alive and force a 4-3 standoff on Day 3.

In fact, I think that's exactly what happened. I think Remus may have fought vehemently for Austin on Day 2 for that reason. I think Zurai is making the final play for the wolves by claiming my role. We'll see tonight, eh?

[Chaosraven]

The Village was particularly busy that weekend, marching Remus West up to the gallows and calmly discussing varying points-of-view with him. Eventually he did the air dance and his tongue ceased flapping as it protruded from his mouth.

And the Village went to bed with questions unanswered.

It Is NIGHT
The Wolves MUST submit a Victim
The Seer MUST choose to Scan/Contact
The Coroner MAY choose to ID a body

[Remus West]

Finally, sheesh.