Diplomacy Discussion Thread

This is the place for self-contained forum games

Moderator: Zaxxon

Post Reply
User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 33598
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Diplomacy Discussion Thread

Post by Remus West »

Lets start with the wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)

Of course, I remember that there is a trick to linking there but can not remember what it is. :oops:

Anyway, the game is set in Europe with 7 major powers. England, France, Germany, Italy, Austria, Turkey, and Russia. All save Russia begin with 3 supply centers and 3 units. Russia begins with 4 of each.

There are two types of units, Armies and Fleets. Armies move on land (duh) while Fleets can be both coastal or at sea. Fleets can not attack or support attacks into a fully land-locked province while Armies can not attack or support attacks into the sea.

The game is broken into 3 main phases. Spring, Fall, and Build (I like to call that one Winter). During the Spring and Fall the powers manuver their units around the board attempting to take more territory. During these phases there are several options for units. They may either move, support another unit, hold, or in the case of a Fleet at sea Convoy an Army over the sea.

Each Phase is broken into 3 parts. Diplomacy - Write - Resolve.

During the Diplomacy section powers talk to each other and for plans/alliances. Anything and everything is fair game for promises. None of the promises are enforcable through rule.

During the Write phase all powers write down their orders for their units. What moves where etc.

During the Resolve phase all the orders are revealed and the ones that suceed are carried out.

Example:
England has a Fleet in the English Channel. England attempts to move the Fleet to Belgium. Order: F Eng -> Bel

Germany has an Army in Ruhr. Germany tries to move the Army to Belgium. Order: A Ruh -> Bel

On resolve neither unit would move as they are at equal strength 1-1.

Now suppose that France has an Army in Picardy. France chooses to support the English Fleet into Belgium. Order: A Pic S F Eng -> Bel.

Upon Resolve the English fleet would move from the English Channel into Belgium as they had a 2-1 advantage. The German Army would remain in Ruhr.

During the Build phase the number of Units on the board per power are adjusted. Powers may have no more units than they control Supply Centers. If they control 3 Supply Centers but have 4 Units they must disband one. Powers have the option of building more units if they control more supply centers than they have units in play. If they have 4 Units but control 6 Supply centers they MAY build 2 units. Units may only be built in home (starting) supply centers of that Power.

Control of Supply Centers is determined by the last occupant during a Fall phase. For instance, Italy move into Mar. during a Spring move. Mar still belongs to France. Italy remains in Mar the following Fall. Mar now belongs to Italy. Later, France moves back into Mar during the Spring but then moves on into the Piedmont during the Fall. Mar would remain in Italian control.

Confused?
Ask and I shall try to clarify.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
User avatar
stessier
Posts: 30391
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: SC

Post by stessier »

That is all very clear. Thanks for the write up!

I haven't read the wiki link yet (probably won't until tonight), but do you only lose units by losing Supply Centers (ie., no real combat losses)? And when is a winner declared? Must he control the whole board, or just the majority?
User avatar
Grundbegriff
Posts: 22277
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 am
Location: http://baroquepotion.com
Contact:

Re: Diplomacy Discussion Thread

Post by Grundbegriff »

ONE

Great! Here's a Quick & Dirty Guide:

The main reason the Diplomacy rules seem confusing is that they include the main ideas and all the details about how to resolve conflicts. The rules overwhelm, because they don't distinguish between the Big Ideas and the little piddling details.

Here's a summary of just the Big Ideas:
  • Exactly seven players.
  • A map with 75 territories, including 19 sea and 56 land.
  • 34 of the 56 land territories are Supply Centers (the ones with dots in them)-- these are the only territories that ultimately matter.
  • Some of the 56 land territories are "landlocked"; others are "coastal" (have shoreline). For example, Budapest and Paris are landlocked, but Naples and Norway are coastal.
  • The game proceeds from year to year starting in 1901, and each year includes the following phases: (a) Spring Movement, (b) Summer Retreat [if needed], (c) Fall Movement, (d) Winter Retreat [if needed], (e) Adjustment [consisting of Builds or Disbandments]. So that's two movement turns (spring and fall), each followed by retreats if needed, and then a reallocation of units.
  • Each player starts with three or four Supply Centers that count as his home turf.
  • After each fall, every player adds or subtracts units until his number of units equals the number of Supply Centers he controlled as of that fall. (So obviously the key to the game is to get more Supply Centers, in order to get more units, in order to get even more Supply Centers.)
  • A player may build new units only on his home turf. If his home Centers are occupied or have been taken over, tough luck on the lost Builds.
  • There are two types of unit: Army and Fleet.
  • Armies can stand on any land territory, landlocked or coastal. Armies can move into any adjacent land territory.
  • Fleets can stand on any sea territory and any coastal land territory, but never on a landlocked territory. Fleets on a coast can move into any adjacent coastal territory on the same coast.
  • A Fleet can Convoy (carry) an Army across water.
  • No territory may have more than one unit on it at a time.
  • No unit can execute more than a single order.
  • The number of units a player possesses must always equal the number of supply centers he controlled the previous fall.
  • Any unit may try to move into any eligible adjacent territory. For example, an Army in Vienna may legally try to move into tyr, boh, gal, bud, or tri. For another example, a Fleet in Marseilles may legally try to move into pie, lyo, or spa, but may not try to move into gas or bur (not into bur because it's landlocked, and not into gas because even though it's coastal, it's not adjacent along a coast).
  • Any unit may Support some other unit's attempt to move.
  • Pieces competing to occupy the same territory cancel one another out.
That's an overview of the key ingredients and main concepts. Gameplay consists of PMing other players to try to work out backroom deals to Support one another's moves (or to block someone else's moves). After a couple of days of negotiation, every player submits orders to the game referee.

Orders consist of instructions to stay put, to go somewhere, or to support some other unit that's trying to stay put or go somewhere. All the moves are resolved according to some fairly straightforward rules, and the game ref posts a new map indicating whose moves were successful, whose failed, and so forth. Then, negotiations begin again.

Success requires knowing when to be trustworthy, when to trust, when to backstab, and when to plan against backstabbing from others.

The goal is to control 18 Supply Centers, and control is determined by who occupies what when each fall's movement phase is resolved. (Occupying a Center in the spring but not the fall earns you diddly squat.)
User avatar
Grundbegriff
Posts: 22277
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 am
Location: http://baroquepotion.com
Contact:

Re: Diplomacy Discussion Thread

Post by Grundbegriff »

TWO

Let's talk for a moment about how to issue orders. Here's an example from spring movement, 1901:

Code: Select all

Austria: Austin
  A bud -> ser
  F tri -> ven
  A vie -> bud

Italy: El Guapo
  F nap -> ion
  A rom -> ven
  A ven -> tyr
To prevent confusion, disagreements, and misinterpretations, orders are usually issued following a simple syntax:
  • 1, the letter A or the letter F to indicate whether you're ordering an Army or a Fleet.
  • 2, the abbreviated name of the territory where the ordered unit now resides.
  • 3, the operation to be performed: a line - or an arrow -> or an S or an H.
  • 4, the desired outcome. (a) If you're ordering a Hold, there is no fourth element. (b) If you're ordering a move, this will be the abbreviated name of the territory you wish to enter. (c) If you're ordering Support for some other unit's Hold, this will be the abbreviated name of the territory whose Hold you wish to Support. (d) If you're ordering Support for some other unit's move, this will be the exact order that that unit is issuing.
I've given four elements of the syntax and four cases ((a) - (d)) for the fourth element, so let me give a few concrete examples:

(Case 4a): Suppose I have an Army in Budapest, and I want it to Hold its ground. The correct order to issue would be:

A bud H

The first element is the A to indicate the type of unit ordered.
The second element is the bud to indicate that unit's current location.
The third element is the H to indicate the operation to be performed.
The fourth element (desired outcome) isn't necessary in the case of a Hold, since it obviously applies to the current territory.

(Case 4b): Suppose I have an Army in Budapest, and I want to move it to Serbia. The correct order to issue would be:

A bud - ser or A bud -> ser

The first element is the A to indicate the type of unit ordered.
The second element is the bud to indicate that unit's current location.
The third element is the -> to indicate the operation to be performed.
The fourth element will be ser, the intended destination.

(Case 4c): Suppose I have an Army in Budapest and I also have a Fleet in Trieste. Suppose I want the Fleet to Hold and I want the Army to Support that Hold. The correct orders to issue would be:

F tri H
A bud S tri


The first element in each order tells the type of unit. The second tells the location. The H indicates that the Fleet in tri will Hold. The S tri indicates that the Army in bud will Support the Trieste Fleet's attempt to hold.

In case of combat against Trieste, the latter will have a defensive value of 2: the unit itself, and the unit supporting it.

(Case 4d): Suppose I have an Army in Budapest and I also have a Fleet in Albania. Suppose I want to move that Albanian Fleet into Trieste. If my enemy in Tyrolia also tries to move into Trieste, we'll stand off. So I'll Support my Fleet into Trieste using the Budapest Army. The correct orders are:

F alb -> tri
A bud S F alb -> tri

The first order picks out the Albanian Fleet and moves it into Trieste. The second order picks out the Budapest Army and directs its support (S) at the previous order. Now, the sequence of the orders doesn't matter. What does matter is that When one unit supports the movement of another unit, the Support order must match the movement order exactly. This is shown above in the matched blue portions

With this guidance in mind, let's look at a couple of last turn's orders:

Austria: Austin
A bud -> ser
F tri -> ven (Bounced with rom (1 against 1).)
A vie -> bud

Italy: El Guapo
F nap -> ion
A rom -> ven (Bounced with tri (1 against 1).)
A ven -> tyr


Austria moved all three of his units. According to this info, he moved the Army from Budapest to Serbia, the Fleet from Trieste to Venice, and the Army from Vienna to Budapest. Two of these moves worked, but one did not.

Italy moved all three of his units. He moved his Fleet from Naples to the Ionian Sea, his Army from Rome to Venice, and his Army from Venice to Tyrolia. Two of these moves worked, but one did not.

You can tell which moves failed because they're underlined and they're followed by an explanation. In this case, the explanation for Austria's failed move is the same as the explanation for Italy's failed move: they bumped into each other in a standoff over Venice, and since each was using a single unsupported unit (1 against 1), both orders failed. Venice was left unoccupied.

This real-game scenario exactly matches the example I made up for the explanation in my last note, but uses different territories (tri and rom fighting over ven, rather than por and gas fighting over spa).

Questions about this game turn, about how to write orders, or about any other aspect of this standoff? After questions have been answered, I'll explain a bit more about combat resolution, convoys, support, and WRINKLE TWO (unwanted Support).
User avatar
Grundbegriff
Posts: 22277
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 am
Location: http://baroquepotion.com
Contact:

Re: Diplomacy Discussion Thread

Post by Grundbegriff »

THREE
How exactly does support getting cut happen?
Suppose Alfred is supporting Betsy, and Betsy is attacking Carlos. Suppose further that Carlos is holding and has no support. In that case, it's two against one: Alfred and Betsy against Carlos. Betsy moves into Carlos's territory, and Carlos is dislodged.

Here's the rule: if Alfred is attacked from any place other than the target of his support, then that support is cut.

Let's step through what happened in-game last night:

Image

Kelric really wanted to move his Ukrainian army into Rumania. He ordered that move, and then he supported the move from Sevastopol and from Galicia. That's a total force of 3:

A ukr -> rum
A gal S A ukr -> rum
F sev S A ukr -> rum


The only way Rumania will resist such an attack is by (a) defending with a force of 3, or (b) defending with a smaller force, but cutting the attacking force down as well.

As it happens, Rumania can exercise either option, since Remus and Austin are apparently cooperating. So, Remus orders Rumania to support something else (see below). For purposes of defense, a unit offering support elsewhere is holding its own territory, and counts as 1. Remus also orders Bulgaria to support Rumania's hold. Finally, Austin orders Serbia to support Rumania's hold. Rumania has three defensive units, and can successfully stand off the Russian attack:

A rum S A bud -> gal
A bul S A rum
A ser S A rum


Now, a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. Even though Rumania had 3 units of defense and Russia had 3 units of offense, Russia only ended up attacking with 2 units of offense. Here's why. In exchange for Austin's order for Serbia to support Rumania's hold, Remus orders Rumania (as mentioned above) to support Austin's invasion from Budapest to Galicia.

Austin really wants Galicia, so in addition to ordering a move from Budapest to Galicia and acquiring Remus's support from Rumania, Austin also orders Vienna to support the move from Budapest to Galicia. Three attacking units:

A bud -> gal
A rum S A bud -> gal
A vie S A bud -> gal


Galicia counts as holding (since it's offering support elsewhere rather than moving), and Kelric orders Warsaw to support Galicia's hold, so there are only two defensive points in Galicia over against Austin's invasion force of 3.

Two interesting consequences follow: first, Galicia is one of Kelric's supporting units for Kelric's own invasion of Rumania. Since Galicia is being attacked from somewhere other than Rumania (into which Galicia's support was supposed to flow), Galicia's support is cut. The basic idea is that Galicia has been distracted from offering support over here by having to deal with an unrelated attack over there. Now Kelric is attacking Rumania with only 2.

Second, Remus's Rumania is one of Austin's supporting units for Austin's invasion of Galicia. That was supposed to be an invasion force of 3, which would've defeated Kelric's defense of 2. However, since Rumania is being attacked from somewhere other than Galicia (into which Rumania's support was supposed to flow), Rumania's support is cut. Now Austin is attacking Galicia with only 2. Since the defense is also 2, it's a standoff.

As a result, Kelric's attempted invasion fails 2-to-3, and Austin's attempted invasion fails 2-to-2. And each invasion was responsible for cutting one point of support off the other invasion's offensive value!
User avatar
Chaosraven
Posts: 20235
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:26 am

Post by Chaosraven »

The number of units a player possesses must always equal the number of supply centers he controlled the previous fall.
This applies during the Winter Phase (Build) as you could potentially Lose a Unit but do not replace it until then.
"Where are you off to?"
"I don't know," Snufkin replied.
The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

Sweet sweet meat come. -LordMortis
User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 33598
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Post by Remus West »

stessier wrote:That is all very clear. Thanks for the write up!

I haven't read the wiki link yet (probably won't until tonight), but do you only lose units by losing Supply Centers (ie., no real combat losses)? And when is a winner declared? Must he control the whole board, or just the majority?
Units can be lost through combat if they have no place to retreat to legally. Also, a Unit forced to retreat has the option of disbanding instead.

Winner is declared either by all sides deciding the game has reached a stalemate or by one player reaching 18 Supply Centers controled.

Example of destroyed Unit through combat.

Turkey:
F Bla S A Rum -> Sev
F Arm S A Rum -> Sev
A Rum -> Sev

Russia:
F Sev Hold
A Ukr S F Sev
A Mos S F Sev

Austria:
A Gal -> Ukr

The Austrian attack on Ukr cuts the support from there. The battle in Sev is thus won by Turkey 3-2. The Russian Fleet would be dislodged and force to retreat. Because there is no open legal province for the unit to move to it is instead destroyed and removed from the board. Evn if Ukr was empty a Fleet in Sev would be destroyed as Fleets can not legally move to Ukr.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
User avatar
stessier
Posts: 30391
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:30 pm
Location: SC

Post by stessier »

It's still all making sense (which is a little scary).

One question about orders. Do you have to give orders for every unit you have, or is it understood that ones not mentioned are holding where they stand?
User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 33598
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Post by Remus West »

stessier wrote:It's still all making sense (which is a little scary).

One question about orders. Do you have to give orders for every unit you have, or is it understood that ones not mentioned are holding where they stand?
Any unit not given specific orders is by default given a hold order.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 33598
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Post by Remus West »

BTW, is anyone interested in running a game when the current ones finish? Likely still be a while but it may be nice to see if there is enough interest to generate two seperate games. By seperate I mean if you sign up for one do not sign up for both type thing. Lets see if we can get unique games running.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
User avatar
Bakhtosh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10900
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:24 pm
Location: The First Avenger
Contact:

Post by Bakhtosh »

Can fleets capture territory?

What is the order for having a fleet convoy an army?
“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” -Thomas Jefferson
Finding Red Riding Hood well-armed, the wolf calls for more gun control.
User avatar
Austin
Posts: 15192
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:49 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Contact:

Post by Austin »

Bakhtosh wrote:Can fleets capture territory?

What is the order for having a fleet convoy an army?
Yes, Fleets can move into any coastal spot they are adjacent to. They can move along the shoreline also but cannot cross land.

For the order, 'C' is for convoy and that's good enough for me. /cookiemonster

Say you wanted to move A Spa to Liverpool. If you had a Fleet in Mao and Iri you could get him there.

A Spa -> Lvp
F Mao C Spa -> Lvp
F Iri C Spa -> Lvp

Convoys can only be broken by dislodging the Fleet. Simply attacking into the Fleet's waters will not break the chain.
Your ad here.
User avatar
Grundbegriff
Posts: 22277
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 am
Location: http://baroquepotion.com
Contact:

Post by Grundbegriff »

Here's something I didn't learn until midway through my first game. It would've affected some of my choices, so I'll put it here for the newbies.

The rules say that a Support order must exactly match the order of the unit thus supported. That's not quite true.

When Freedonia wants to Support Erewhon's move into Gematria, there must be a match:
A Erewhon -> Gematria
A Freedonia S A Erewhon -> Gematria
Likewise, when Freedonia wants to Support Erewhon's Hold, there must be a match:
A Erewhon H
A Freedonia S A Erewhon H

(This can be abbreviated to
A Erewhon H
A Freedonia S A Erewhon)
What the rules do not make clear is that Freedonia can Support Erewhon's own position rather than supporting Erewhon's Supporting action. (Freedonia can support Erewhon's holding of ground even while Erewhon tries to support (but not attack) something else):
A Erewhon S Gematria
A Freedonia S Erewhon
This combination is legal, and means that Freedonia does not Support (nor oppose) Erewhon's Support of Gematria, but does Support Erewhon's holding of ground in case someone tries to dislodge Erewhon. Note that the Support order does not match the order of the Supported unit, and that that's ok in this case. Note also that the following combo will fail:
A Erewhon -> Gematria
A Freedonia S Erewhon
This fails because "A Erewhon H" doesn't match Erewhon's own orders.

The main implication is that you can chain support.

Alpha S Beta
Beta S Gamma
Gamma S Delta
Delta -> Epsilon
...
User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 33598
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Post by Remus West »

Grund, thats not accurate. If you support a province and the unit in it moves the support order will fail. Chaining support is doable the way you discribe but the last suppost order you had:
Gamma S Delta
will fail because Delta attacked.

Image
If what you are saying was true then the Austrian army in Galacia would be supported from Silesia.
Results for Spring, 1912 (Movement)
General Notices:
Order resolution completed on 21-Jan-2008 at 11:49:48 GMT-05:00

Order Results:
Austria:
Austria: A gal -> ukr
Dislodged from ukr (2 against 1).
Austria: A sil Supports A gal
Support failed. Move orders must be supported explicitly.

Russia:
Russia: A ukr -> gal
Russia: A war Holds

Turkey:
Turkey: A rum Supports A ukr -> gal

Image

For a support order to take effect it MUST match the order given the unit in the province.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 42344
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Post by El Guapo »

Grundbegriff wrote: What the rules do not make clear is that Freedonia can Support Erewhon's own position rather than supporting Erewhon's move. (Freedonia can support Erewhon's holding of ground even while Erewhon tries to do something else):
A Erewhon -> Gematria
A Freedonia S A Erewhon
This combination is legal, and means that Freedonia does not Support (nor oppose) Erewhon's move into Gematria, but does Support Erewhon's holding of ground in case someone tries to dislodge Erewhon. Note that the Support order does not match the order of the Supported unit, and that that's ok in this case.
This is not quite right - this move set is not legal. Basically, the rule is that a support order must match another unit's order to either move into another space or stay in the same space (regardless of what the unit that is staying is doing, whether nothing, supporting, or convoying). In short, a unit that is moving may be supported in that move; a unit that is not moving may be supported in holding. Thus, the above move:
A Erewhon -> Gematria
A Freedonia S A Erewhon
is not legal, since A Erewhon is moving, and thus cannot be supported in not moving (holding). A Freedonia S A Erewhon - Gematria, by contrast, would be legal (assuming Freedonia borders Gematria), because the support matches Erewhon's move into Gematria.

Meanwhile, the following set of moves would be legal:
F Erewhon S F Gematria AND EITHER
F Gematria H, OR
F Gematria S F Delta, OR
F Gematria C A Omega - Alpha.
In all of those cases, F Gematria is not moving, and can therefore be supported in remaining in Gematria (i.e. may be supported in not moving).

Bottom line: if a unit is moving it can be supported in its move but may not be supported in staying in place; if it is staying in place it may be supported in staying in place but not in moving.

This does make mutual supports possible (i.e. A Erewhon S A Gematria, A Gematria S A Erewhon is legal).
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Grundbegriff
Posts: 22277
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 am
Location: http://baroquepotion.com
Contact:

Post by Grundbegriff »

Remus West wrote:Grund, thats not accurate. If you support a province and the unit in it moves the support order will fail. Chaining support is doable the way you describe.
You're right. It works only for chained support. I've fixed the OP.
For a support order to take effect it MUST match the order given the unit in the province.
False. The whole point of my message was that this isn't always true, and nothing you've said changes that. Consider:
A Utopia S Boxen
A Boxen S Croatoan
Here's an example of chained support. The support order for Utopia does not match the order given the supported unit. Specifically, "S Boxen" does not match "Boxen S Croatoan". Nevertheless, in apparent violation of the "matching orders" rule, chained support works.
User avatar
Grundbegriff
Posts: 22277
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 am
Location: http://baroquepotion.com
Contact:

Post by Grundbegriff »

El Guapo wrote:This is not quite right - this move set is not legal.
Yeah, yeah. Don't pile on; I've already removed the blemish. ;)
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 42344
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Post by El Guapo »

Grundbegriff wrote:
El Guapo wrote:This is not quite right - this move set is not legal.
Yeah, yeah. Don't pile on; I've already removed the blemish. ;)
Man, I go to all this effort to clear things up, and Remus beats me to the punch. Jerk. :wink:

My basic point remains - I think the "supports must match orders" is very misleading, but not altogether false. What supports must match is the space that you would like the supported unit to be in - either the one it is currently in, or a space into which it is moving.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Bakhtosh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10900
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:24 pm
Location: The First Avenger
Contact:

Post by Bakhtosh »

1) Can you circle the wagons? (EG answered this above - nevermind)
A bur S A ruh
A ruh S A mun
A mun S A bur

giving each territory a defense value of 2...unless the chain is broken
(A hol -> ruh
A kle -> mun
A ber S A kle -> mun)

That will break ruh's support of mun, giving it a defense of 1, which is being attacked by 2.

2) In the map Remus posted, an army in por could convoy to lon right? Can the convoying fleet in eng support the attack?
“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” -Thomas Jefferson
Finding Red Riding Hood well-armed, the wolf calls for more gun control.
User avatar
Grundbegriff
Posts: 22277
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 am
Location: http://baroquepotion.com
Contact:

Post by Grundbegriff »

El Guapo wrote:the rule is that a support order must match another unit's order to either move into another space or stay in the same space (regardless of what the unit that is staying is doing, whether nothing, supporting, or convoying).
BTW, that's a nice way to summarize the actual practice. Too bad the rules as printed aren't this clear. ;)
User avatar
Grundbegriff
Posts: 22277
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:46 am
Location: http://baroquepotion.com
Contact:

Post by Grundbegriff »

Bakhtosh wrote:1) Can you circle the wagons? (EG answered this above - nevermind)
Yes (redundant, but included for reinforcement of the point)
2) In the map Remus posted, an army in por could convoy to lon right?
Right. And it doesn't have to be an army from the nation providing the Fleets (though there are a few weeds down that path).
Can the convoying fleet in eng support the attack?
No; it's busy Convoying.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 42344
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Post by El Guapo »

Bakhtosh wrote:1) Can you circle the wagons?
A bur S A ruh
A ruh S A mun
A mun S A bur

giving each territory a defense value of 2...unless the chain is broken
(A hol -> ruh
A kle -> mun
A ber S A kle -> mun)

That will break ruh's support of mun, giving it a defense of 1, which is being attacked by 2.

2) In the map Remus posted, an army in por could convoy to lon right? Can the convoying fleet in eng support the attack?
1) Yes (although it's A Kie, not A Kle)

2) Yes, an army in Por could convoy to London (A Por - Lon, F MAO C A Por - Lon, F Eng C A Por - Lon) - as long as you have a continuous fleet chain, you can convoy from any coastal space to any coastal space (i.e. A Syr - StP would work if you had fleets connecting those spaces). Note that any fleet getting dislodged anywhere in the chain would cause the convoy to fail.

F Eng cannot both convoy and support; a unit can only be given one order per turn.
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Bakhtosh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10900
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:24 pm
Location: The First Avenger
Contact:

Post by Bakhtosh »

One more: what's the island off of den with the supply center, but no label?
“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” -Thomas Jefferson
Finding Red Riding Hood well-armed, the wolf calls for more gun control.
User avatar
Austin
Posts: 15192
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:49 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Contact:

Post by Austin »

El Guapo wrote:
Bakhtosh wrote:1) Can you circle the wagons?
A bur S A ruh
A ruh S A mun
A mun S A bur

giving each territory a defense value of 2...unless the chain is broken
(A hol -> ruh
A kle -> mun
A ber S A kle -> mun)

That will break ruh's support of mun, giving it a defense of 1, which is being attacked by 2.

2) In the map Remus posted, an army in por could convoy to lon right? Can the convoying fleet in eng support the attack?
1) Yes (although it's A Kie, not A Kle)

2) Yes, an army in Por could convoy to London (A Por - Lon, F MAO C A Por - Lon, F Eng C A Por - Lon) - as long as you have a continuous fleet chain, you can convoy from any coastal space to any coastal space (i.e. A Syr - StP would work if you had fleets connecting those spaces). Note that any fleet getting dislodged anywhere in the chain would cause the convoy to fail.

F Eng cannot both convoy and support; a unit can only be given one order per turn.
Also to clarify, attacking a Fleet involved in a convoy does NOT interrupt the convoy unless the Fleet is dislodged. (Contrasted to attacking into a territory where the current unit has a support order interrupts the support while the current unit defends itself)
Your ad here.
User avatar
Austin
Posts: 15192
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:49 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Contact:

Post by Austin »

Bakhtosh wrote:One more: what's the island off of den with the supply center, but no label?
Den
Your ad here.
User avatar
Bakhtosh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10900
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:24 pm
Location: The First Avenger
Contact:

Post by Bakhtosh »

Okay...so that's all one territory.

So if TeamA controlls Denmark, then the only way to get from the Baltic Sea to the North Sea is by capturing Denmark or moving a fleet from Sweden to Norway and then out? Nifty.

Also, a Fleet sitting in Norway has access to a LOT of ocean.
“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” -Thomas Jefferson
Finding Red Riding Hood well-armed, the wolf calls for more gun control.
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 42344
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Post by El Guapo »

Bakhtosh wrote:Okay...so that's all one territory.

So if TeamA controlls Denmark, then the only way to get from the Baltic Sea to the North Sea is by capturing Denmark or moving a fleet from Sweden to Norway and then out? Nifty.

Also, a Fleet sitting in Norway has access to a LOT of ocean.
You could also go through Kiel. Some possible routes:

F Bal - Swe - Ska - Nth
F Bal - Kie - Hel - Nth
F Bal - Kie - Hol - Nth
F Bal - Swe - Nwy - Nth
As well as F Bal - Den - Nth
Black Lives Matter.
User avatar
Chaosraven
Posts: 20235
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:26 am

Post by Chaosraven »

somebody might want to explain to the new guys the areas on the board with a North Coast and a South Coast and what it means to them...
"Where are you off to?"
"I don't know," Snufkin replied.
The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

Sweet sweet meat come. -LordMortis
User avatar
Bakhtosh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10900
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:24 pm
Location: The First Avenger
Contact:

Post by Bakhtosh »

If 3 players attempt to move into the same territory A attacks with 2, B with 1 and C with 1, then A captures the territory?
“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” -Thomas Jefferson
Finding Red Riding Hood well-armed, the wolf calls for more gun control.
User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 33598
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Post by Remus West »

Bakhtosh wrote:If 3 players attempt to move into the same territory A attacks with 2, B with 1 and C with 1, then A captures the territory?
Assuming that "A attacks with 2" means with an attacking unit and a unit supporting that attack then yes, A would take the province. It is possible to "bounce" yourself. Sometimes this can be done to protect multiple provinces with fewer units.
Ex:
Austria:
A Rum -> Bud
A Ser -> Bud

Russia:
A Gal -> Rum

Galacia could have gone to either Budapest or Rumania. If Austria moves Rumania into Budapest without doing the same from Serbia then Russia sneaks into Rumania behind him. By making the double move into Budapest all units bounce from there and remain in their original locations thus leaving Budapest open for a possible build that year.



As for multi-coastal provinces.
Stp, Spa, and Bul all have 2 coasts. When a Fleet enters that province they must state which coast they are entering. i.e. F Mao -> Spa NC moves the Fleet onto Spain's north coast. This is important because Fleets in Spa NC can not interact with the Wes, Lyo, or Mar provinces as they are adjacent to the SC and NOT the NC.
Stp and Bul work similarly, as for which coast is available for your entry, you must be adjacent to it. Thus you can not move F Gas -> Spa SC because they are not adjacent. You can move F Gas -> Spa NC. You can not move F Bla -> Bul SC but you can move F Bla -> Bul EC. etc.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
User avatar
Bakhtosh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10900
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:24 pm
Location: The First Avenger
Contact:

Post by Bakhtosh »

3 Territories: X, Y, and Z

---
|X|
---
|Y|
---
|Z|
---

There is 1 army in each territory.

A Z -> Y
A X S A Z -> Y

If A Y -> Z then Y will get bumped/destroyed
If A Y -> X then everyone stays put

Right?
“I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” -Thomas Jefferson
Finding Red Riding Hood well-armed, the wolf calls for more gun control.
User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 33598
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Post by Remus West »

One thing about chaining support. Yes, you can support a unit that is supporting another unit. Keep in mind though that ANY attack breaks the support so even if you have:

Unit A S Unit B
Unit C S Unit B
Unit D S Unit B
Unit B S Unit E

Any attack on unit B cuts the support offered to E. Even if it is an otherwise pointless attack.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
User avatar
Remus West
Posts: 33598
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Not in Westland

Post by Remus West »

Bakhtosh wrote:3 Territories: X, Y, and Z

---
|X|
---
|Y|
---
|Z|
---

There is 1 army in each territory.

A Z -> Y
A X S A Z -> Y

If A Y -> Z then Y will get bumped/destroyed
If A Y -> X then everyone stays put

Right?
No. Units may not cut support offered into their own province. A Y can not cut the support X is offering. In both senarios Y will be dislodged.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
User avatar
El Guapo
Posts: 42344
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Post by El Guapo »

A few other little tricks/nuances:

1) You cannot dislodge your own unit, nor can you support a foreign unit in dislodging one of your own units. Thus if France orders:

A Bur H
A Gas - Bur
A Mar S A Gas - Bur:

then A Bur remains in place, since France can't dislodge its own unit. This can be useful - in the above, for example, France could order A Bur - Bel while still putting two units of force into Burgundy in case Germany attacks Burgundy.

2) Similarly, you cannot cut your own support.

3) However, a foreign unit can disrupt a self-bounce. Hence, with Remus' example above, if Austria orders A Rum - Bud, A Ser - Bud, and Russia anticipates this, Russia may order: A Gal S A Rum - Bud. In that case, Rumania moves into Budapest with two units of support. This could be useful in making Austria block Budapest, or in opening Rumania.

4) One exception to the "support is not cut by an attack into the supporting unit's space" rule - if the supporting unit is dislodged, then its support is cut. Thus in the ordinary case:
Germany:

A Mun - Bur
A Ruh S A Mun - Bur

France:

A Bur - Ruh
A Mar - Bur
Support from Ruh is not cut, since it is offering support into Burgundy. Thus, A Mun moves into Burgundy, A Bur is dislodged, and A Mar is bounced (two units moving into Burgundy, while France has only single units of force). Support is, however, cut in the following case:

Germany:

A Mun - Bur
A Ruh S A Mun - Bur

France:

A Bur - Ruh
A Bel S A Bur - Ruh
A Mar - Bur
In that case, A Ruh is dislodged from Burgundy. Because it is dislodged, its support is cut. Thus A Mun - Bur has only one unit of force, and bounces with A Mar.
Black Lives Matter.
Post Reply