WW Meta Discussions

[Chaosraven]

Concerns:

Timing clarifications

Ghost Posts

Public Knowledge

Absenteeism

Others?

[Chaosraven]

I believe the Public Knowledge of Innocent PM (being given the Innocent Card) by posting the actual text of it in the Rules Post will eliminate any potential for exploitation of the "non-role".

The intent of having Innocents is for all players to "hide" within that Umbrella. Good Specials and Bad Guys. Without having that Information available to ALL players this gives a potential advantage to the Innocents.

While I do not feel this to be a GameBreaking Loophole, it does need to be fixed.

What it does is give One Player (the First to exploit it) the "Safe Word" so that the Other Innocents won't vote for that player. All other Claims after the information is exposed are suspect.

We have tried to avoid giving Innocents PMs at all, but that is ineffective because of the Meta involved in a player not showing up when they have not received PM notification that the Game is Underway.

I have tried to give Unique Messages to all Innocents (and tried to give the same to Wolves on another occasion) but both of these options are confusing to the Innocents and leaves the Good Guy Specials out (as they also need to hide in that group).

Handing out the Cards (in RL) has the Simple effect that a Single Word completes the effect.
Individually tailored PMs for the information has flavor text special to the game.

Rather than remove the Flavor Text and making a Vanilla PM, posting the Shared Public Knowledge in the Rules Thread allows for both Flavor Text and the ability for all players to use the "non-roled" Innocent hiding place as intended.

[Chaosraven]

Absenteeism can cut both ways.

As evidenced by the first game I ever played to st_dysan and Newcastle in Lars5, it can and does have an impact.

Some games have required Night Participation of some kind from ALL players. (see Grund's games where a PM had to be sent, even if it was "no action")

So although people have objected to a Wolf playing in this fashion (as someone MIA has by and large been an unpowered innocent) it also hurts the Good Guys in the extent that a player Assumed to be MIA Unpowered also narrows down the Pool the Bad Guys have to find the good guy specials.

The Player becomes a Warm Body, but not a voting one.

Their name hits the bottom of the threat matrix and stays there.

They do not get lynched (even without the Single Response to be Poked)

Unfortunately real life does indeed play a part quite often, and often Innocent players may not feel involved enough to matter. They have no info to go on, a lonely existence of Paranoia.

This used to be counterbalanced by the ability to PM (all players could) but the thread suffers with all of the Behind the Scenes activity as people posture and pose and lie to each other (games within games).

I do not propose the return to the days of All Players PM, nor do I advise all games having Some Form of Required Participation.

This one sort of has me at a loss.

[Silky]

Absenteeism can cut both ways.

That about sums up my thoughts on the subject. The wolf team can never be sure it isn't a ruse and neither can the villagers. Both have the option to take care of this problem. I have no problems voting for someone that either claims he cannot participate or bows out altogether. It is risky at best to "plan" on doing this as I and others have seen one game wasted due to participation.

The problem comes in when it is someone who's actions are required to roll the cycle forward. Lets say the seer for sake of argument did not participate for a number of days. At some point the moderator has to roll the game forward. This would lead to an unbalanced game and I cannot think of a good way to fix it.

[tru1cy]

Absenteeism can cut both ways.

That about sums up my thoughts on the subject. The wolf team can never be sure it isn't a ruse and neither can the villagers. Both have the option to take care of this problem. I have no problems voting for someone that either claims he cannot participate or bows out altogether. It is risky at best to "plan" on doing this as I and others have seen one game wasted due to participation.

The problem comes in when it is someone who's actions are required to roll the cycle forward. Lets say the seer for sake of argument did not participate for a number of days. At some point the moderator has to roll the game forward. This would lead to an unbalanced game and I cannot think of a good way to fix it.

Agreed. A critical role being absent can really derail a game, but forced active participation shouldn't occur. It's a two edge sword, but the current system work


I do have a problem with using meta information to gain advantage.

[Chaosraven]

The problem comes in when it is someone who's actions are required to roll the cycle forward. Lets say the seer for sake of argument did not participate for a number of days. At some point the moderator has to roll the game forward. This would lead to an unbalanced game and I cannot think of a good way to fix it.

In the unfortunate event that a player with an important Role is going to be MIA for an extended period of time, they should most likely send in a Set of Orders for eventuality.

I scan Silky Night1, remus Night2, and Grund Night3 (in the event these players are dead by that time the scan will be lost)

My suggestion.

[Chaosraven]

I do have a problem with using meta information to gain advantage.

I agree that forced Participation is not wanted. (Where I made the comment about the Speed Limit of Posting - or the You Must be at Least This Tall - kind of thing)

Some people Post Less than others. Some just cannot shut up. That is the Behavior that gets analyzed when it changes.

The unfortunate side of playing this game over an extended period of time rather than face to face is the Weekend, the Vacation, the Unexpected Circumstances, and the NonRequired Participation of all players without abilities that need their participation.

And those get analyzed as well.

[Kraegor]

to respond to the CR/LM debate from the Lars game

I've only played the forum version and thus had/have no preconceived expectations. I see the meta stuff more as pet peeves.

I'm of the impression the bias comes from Face 2 Face experience playing the game. even remus mentioned his own gripe about "it's like flashing your role card" in another thread.

Altho I dislike meta play, the existence of absentee players is a common component of these games. There is no pure way to police everything, so I simply regard it as an aspect of the system.

The only way to have a "pure" game would require that we limit signups, start filtering applicants for online/posting reliability....etc Which would limit any infusion of new blood.

We all stumble from time to time. Most of the hiccups in the games I've participated in have been minor and had no large impact.

Even in the Lar's game Newcastle's absence did NOT guarantee him to be an innocent. The wolves simply did not exploit Newcastles play enough to provide deflection for st_dysan. The opportunity was there they just didn't seize it. And yeah this is all hindsight 20/20 but the point is valid.

The only games where the outcome felt predetermined were the one's wherein the ruleset had a slant towards one side or the other to begin with. Even then, the only reason the weaker side lost was due to unwillingness to make a bold move to offset the rules bias (I include myself in this group with the Monty python loss)

[Kraegor]

In the unfortunate event that a player with an important Role is going to be MIA for an extended period of time, they should most likely send in a Set of Orders for eventuality.

I scan Silky Night1, remus Night2, and Grund Night3 (in the event these players are dead by that time the scan will be lost)

My suggestion.

presuming the absence is a planned occurrence, this sorta behavior should be common courtesy.

[LordMortis]

to respond to the CR/LM debate from the Lars game

I've only played the forum version and thus had/have no preconceived expectations. I see the meta stuff more as pet peeves.

My expectation is for what makes the game enjoyable for me. A meta game as it were might not bother me. Looking for tells and unturning stones is part of what you are doing. The particular stone and tell of the PM's changes the nature of the game into something I don't like. It's creating a second and even more powerful version of the masons or bastardization of them at the least.

When you claim to be an innocent all of the other innocents can get together and wait for the secret sign. They use this reassure each other and examine you. That is not what the unassigned were meant to do.

Again I have no problem that others aren't bothered by this approach. Good for them. I don't like it, so I don't often play.

[Chaosraven]

to respond to the CR/LM debate from the Lars game

I've only played the forum version and thus had/have no preconceived expectations. I see the meta stuff more as pet peeves.

My expectation is for what makes the game enjoyable for me. A meta game as it were might not bother me. Looking for tells and unturning stones is part of what you are doing. The particular stone and tell of the PM's changes the nature of the game into something I don't like. It's creating a second and even more powerful version of the masons or bastardization of them at the least.

When you claim to be an innocent all of the other innocents can get together and wait for the secret sign. They use this reassure each other and examine you. That is not what the unassigned were meant to do.

Again I have no problem that others aren't bothered by this approach. Good for them. I don't like it, so I don't often play.

But it doesn't work that way.

ONE Player says "Ok Guys, we got the Message "You are a Regular n0rma1 \/1LLa63R"

Now all the other Players who got the same message say to themselves, quietly, alone "hey, HE'S a guy just like me" and don't vote for him as a lynch.

All the Bad Guys and all the Good Guy Specials go WTF? And then say, oh ok... now we have the same info.

The Guy who said it first cannot trust anyone else who "shares the secret". Anyone after the first guy who makes the same claim has no impact.

[Kraegor]

My expectation is for what makes the game enjoyable for me. A meta game as it were might not bother me. Looking for tells and unturning stones is part of what you are doing. The particular stone and tell of the PM's changes the nature of the game into something I don't like. It's creating a second and even more powerful version of the masons or bastardization of them at the least.

When you claim to be an innocent all of the other innocents can get together and wait for the secret sign. They use this reassure each other and examine you. That is not what the unassigned were meant to do.

heh, that's what I don't understand. Chaos and I tried that. I still died. That scenario was the epitome of meta pm usage. The other innocents couldn't even remeber their damn PM!!

If that's the only aspect of meta that turned you off, I would think we've taken some pretty decent strides to address it. for the most part we don't discuss the PMs.



------------------------
There IS the incidental "oh lynch me i'm innocent and afk!" thing as evidenced in the last game, and THAT needs to stop occurring. As a courtesy announce your absence, sure, but beyond that STFU! The decision to lynch yer absent ass can be made w/o your blessing!!

And newcastle don't beat yerself up so much, it's happened in other games in different variations. You are not the one and only offender. The explicit problem is that no one bothers to roleplay and thus they mention external stuff like "i didn't get a pm" when once the game starts that "concept" should not be in the discussion...etc...

Needs to be more like "Click" player is on autopilot and no one knows...

[LordMortis]

But it doesn't work that way.

It works different ways depending on how you game the system and how the system is set up. You play it with a whole outing at once. Others play like sonar. They bounce pieces and see who listens and responds with a mating call. A whole conversation can happen without the specials ever knowing about it. The conversation become more and more clear to those who know without ever giving tells to those who aren't.

[Chaosraven]

They have no way of "getting together" or of "reassuring each other"...

They actually have no way of knowing at the outset that THEY ALL received an identical PM, regardless of what it was.

In the Lars5, I found out behind the scenes in discussion with the Mentalist. I told him "Unpowered Innocent", he prodded for Specific Info of my role, and as I have no abilities, I gave him the "town Innocent". Which apparently he had ALREADY received from his first contact, as he claimed they Matched.

Now, I can make the assumption that all Innocents received the same PM, but he couldn't, so I explained to him that the pair of us could be wolves with a prepared story as to our "roles" and of course they would match.
I warned him that *I* "I" etc could be "innocents" or "wolves" and as remus pointed out, even he figured it out quick in the one game.

Did anyone think to send a message to the Mod and ask him for that information?

Having run many of these games, I have received craploads of PMs behind the scenes for rules clarifications, and have to carefully weigh what I say back in the event it is information they would not have or something everyone should know.

By Grund objecting as a Ghost, my proof was there.
By Lars objecting as the Mod, my proof was there.

I left that part out of the thread itself.

I have also, in the past, let a Mod know when in one of their games they let something slip that should probably be edited as unbalanced information.

[Kraegor]

But it doesn't work that way.

It works different ways depending on how you game the system and how the system is set up. You play it with a whole outing at once. Others play like sonar. They bounce pieces and see who listens and responds with a mating call. A whole conversation can happen without the specials ever knowing about it. The conversation become more and more clear to those who know without ever giving tells to those who aren't.

well yeah...but that concept exists in a face2face game as well, yes? That seems like an explicit facet of both game styles (face/forum) and can most certainly be exploited either way.

I'm sure knowing certain players you can tell by tonal inflection if something is hidden etc. It's not like everyone is a perfect poker player.

[Chaosraven]

But it doesn't work that way.

It works different ways depending on how you game the system and how the system is set up. You play it with a whole outing at once. Others play like sonar. They bounce pieces and see who listens and responds with a mating call. A whole conversation can happen without the specials ever knowing about it. The conversation become more and more clear to those who know without ever giving tells to those who aren't.

And why do you think I have carefully avoided orchestrating such a thing and have taken steps in my own games and with suggestions to avoid that Exact Occurrence?

People don't look that closely. The intended TARGET doesn't look that closely.

The Codes in question were Cabal talking to Cabal, and Mentalist Contact to Mentalist Circle (of One), and should have been Wolf to Wolf.

You can't all out at Once. How are the Good Guy Specials and Bad Guys not going to have the Code Word before all the Innocents show up?

[LordMortis]

well yeah...but that concept exists in a face2face game as well, yes?

It might but in a face to face game you each get a card. That will have a simple title on it. There is no giveaway from the card.

This is what I think is a positive step for Trigs game and something I have quietly been lobbying for since I mostly stepped away. And that is that each role is like a card. None of the information sent by mod to players is privledged and can be used as code.

[Chaosraven]

well yeah...but that concept exists in a face2face game as well, yes?

It might but in a face to face game you each get a card. That will have a simple title on it. There is no giveaway from the card.

This is what I think is a positive step for Trigs game and something I have quietly been lobbying for since I mostly stepped away. And that is that each role is like a card. None of the information sent by mod to players is privledged and can be used as code.

True, as long as ALL Players have Access to that Information.

By that same standard, timing rules (when does the seer get his result? what does he get if X happens) are also something that Should Be common knowledge, otherwise they serve as Proof. The Proven Roles that can't be faked are Powerful, regardless of what they do.

[Kraegor]

well yeah...but that concept exists in a face2face game as well, yes?

It might but in a face to face game you each get a card. That will have a simple title on it. There is no giveaway from the card.

This is what I think is a positive step for Trigs game and something I have quietly been lobbying for since I mostly stepped away. And that is that each role is like a card. None of the information sent by mod to players is privledged and can be used as code.

heh, the "flavor" for the Roles PMs was always a bit extraneous anyways. I understand some folks like to use the creativity but for "game setup" I would agree that a "card" with a simple title is the better approach for role assignment. leave setup as transparent as possible.

conversely put in all the flavor ya want in the back n forth PMs of scan results etc.

Flavor in role assignment is sorta like the DM using his "in game" voice when telling you how to roll your stats. dude, the game hasn't started, relax!

[Chaosraven]

Ghost Posts:

good, bad, ugly?

"I'm still reading, even though I''m dead" Popcorn

emoticons

any actual text, gamerelated

any actual text, unrelated

I think the Spoiler Forums are good so that dead people have a secret place to discuss the game they have left to be able to refrain from posting inappropriately in the game thread or somewhere nearby where it can be discovered

[Chaosraven]

Flavor in role assignment is sorta like the DM using his "in game" voice when telling you how to roll your stats. dude, the game hasn't started, relax!

[LordMortis]

This is what I mean by it's not for me. Y'all are defending a dynamic I simply don't like. Obviously there's something to it that you enjoy exploring and enjoy coming back and finding new ways to explore it. I'll sit back and passively watch your games when I feel like it and it's all good. Enjoy your exploration. It's not for me. It's a layer I don't care for and don't want to have to think about.

[Kraegor]

Ghost Posts:

good, bad, ugly?

"I'm still reading, even though I''m dead" Popcorn

emoticons

any actual text, gamerelated

any actual text, unrelated

I think the Spoiler Forums are good so that dead people have a secret place to discuss the game they have left to be able to refrain from posting inappropriately in the game thread or somewhere nearby where it can be discovered

/shrug. I'd say a separate forum is the answer to game chat jitters for the dead. As for the popcorni, I don't care one way or the other as long as there is no "advice" in them veiled or otherwise.

[Scoop20906]

To prevent the whole "role card" thing, what if the Moderator simply only sent the role name by private message to the player with no description. Role descriptions are in the rules post anyway right?

For example I get the following "PM":

Seer

Or this:

Werewolf

Is there anyway to meta this?

[Remus West]

Regarding Ghost posts, I think posting the binky to show you are still reading at the start or end (after lynch results posted) of the day to show you are reading is fine. Anything else I am starting to feel goes to far. Its not part of the game and we are dead so we should not be communicating even jokes. Anyway, thats the rule I am going to hold myself to, posting binky at start and/or end of day only and nothing between. So now you guys know how you can shut me the F up.

[Scoop20906]

Opps, sorry, I went more carefully through the thread and saw this is already a suggestion.

[Kraegor]

To prevent the whole "role card" thing, what if the Moderator simply only sent the role name by private message to the player with no description. Role descriptions are in the rules post anyway right?

For example I get the following "PM":

Seer

Or this:

Werewolf

Is there anyway to meta this?

provided it's the same usage as on the First Post of the "Roles" list in the game thread? None that I can see, there would be no content to exploit.

[Austin]

To prevent the whole "role card" thing, what if the Moderator simply only sent the role name by private message to the player with no description. Role descriptions are in the rules post anyway right?

For example I get the following "PM":

Seer

Or this:

Werewolf

Is there anyway to meta this?

Yours was more clear, Kraegor's had more funny though.

[Chaosraven]

This is what I mean by it's not for me. Y'all are defending a dynamic I simply don't like. Obviously there's something to it that you enjoy exploring and enjoy coming back and finding new ways to explore it. I'll sit back and passively watch your games when I feel like it and it's all good. Enjoy your exploration. It's not for me. It's a layer I don't care for and don't want to have to think about.

*sigh*

[Kraegor]

heh not my idea. LM's

err well chaos wanted the "known" flavor version which is a similar theory...so he gets co-authorship. but that's sorta redundant to me. If ya post the full text in the thread....wtf send the full text via PM? send me the short version, mofo!!....filling my inbox with spam...the nerve...

[Chaosraven]

heh not my idea. LM's

err well chaos wanted the "known" flavor version which is a similar theory...so he gets co-authorship. but that's sorta redundant to me. If ya post the full text in the thread....wtf send the full text via PM? send me the short version, mofo!!....filling my inbox with spam...the nerve...

Honestly, I liked whoever it was that sent the entire list of PMs to all players with their assignment BOLDED.

[Remus West]

heh not my idea. LM's

err well chaos wanted the "known" flavor version which is a similar theory...so he gets co-authorship. but that's sorta redundant to me. If ya post the full text in the thread....wtf send the full text via PM? send me the short version, mofo!!....filling my inbox with spam...the nerve...

Honestly, I liked whoever it was that sent the entire list of PMs to all players with their assignment BOLDED.

That was me but everyone else bitched and complained the entire first day about it. I was thinking maybe putting the players version in color may make it stand out more.

[Kraegor]

Remus did that confusing ass setup. Hell he had to explain wtf he meant after game start, hehe.

[Kraegor]

[Chaosraven]

Remus did that confusing ass setup. Hell he had to explain wtf he meant after game start, hehe.

I knew what it meant

[Lassr]

heh not my idea. LM's

err well chaos wanted the "known" flavor version which is a similar theory...so he gets co-authorship. but that's sorta redundant to me. If ya post the full text in the thread....wtf send the full text via PM? send me the short version, mofo!!....filling my inbox with spam...the nerve...

Honestly, I liked whoever it was that sent the entire list of PMs to all players with their assignment BOLDED.

in my BSG games I just copied and pasted the roles from the rules on page 1 into a PM and sent it.

[Unagi]

Re: Ghost Posts
I've often held back a 'popcorn ghost' post because I felt like even that may be interpreted as 'Ahhh, the latest development is interesting." - and I don't want to effect the game.

The problem with the ghost-posts is that one guy does 'popcorn', then the next guy does 'roll-eyes', and now we are starting to reveal opinion. And even the 'popcorn' can sometimes be read as 'Ahh, interesting development' ... Sadly, the ghost posts are also often very fun to see.

This may be a silly suggestion - but perhaps we should request that ghosts stay silent until the Night Cycle, and then they should limit themselves to 'pop-corn'. Waiting until the Night Cycle will keep anyone from accidentally or purposely underscroring a specific post.

I will also say, I liked the 'no game talk at night' rule the last game had. Seemed to offer a nice punctuation to each day.

[Chaosraven]

heh not my idea. LM's

err well chaos wanted the "known" flavor version which is a similar theory...so he gets co-authorship. but that's sorta redundant to me. If ya post the full text in the thread....wtf send the full text via PM? send me the short version, mofo!!....filling my inbox with spam...the nerve...

Honestly, I liked whoever it was that sent the entire list of PMs to all players with their assignment BOLDED.

in my BSG games I just copied and pasted the roles from the rules on page 1 into a PM and sent it.

Whatever method is fine, as long as players know what it is.
Hell, even people smart enough to ask the Mod behind the scenes "hey, how did you set this up" or sumpin'

[Remus West]

Remus did that confusing ass setup. Hell he had to explain wtf he meant after game start, hehe.

See, people are still bitching about it. Bastages.

[Chaosraven]

Re: Ghost Posts
I've often held back a 'popcorn ghost' post because I felt like even that may be interpreted as 'Ahhh, the latest development is interesting." - and I don't want to effect the game.

The problem with the ghost-posts is that one guy does 'popcorn', then the next guy does 'roll-eyes', and now we are starting to reveal opinion. And even the 'popcorn' can sometimes be read as 'Ahh, interesting development' ... Sadly, the ghost posts are also often very fun to see.

This may be a silly suggestion - but perhaps we should request that ghosts stay silent until the Night Cycle, and then they should limit themselves to 'pop-corn'. Waiting until the Night Cycle will keep anyone from accidentally or purposely underscroring a specific post.

I will also say, I liked the 'no game talk at night' rule the last game had. Seemed to offer a nice punctuation to each day.

Depends on the game, I suppose. I like the Night Talk, even when one of sides chooses to read into it, it can be an effective tool for misdirection.

Of course, it might also be related to my inability to shut up so reading Night without Nighttalk is pretty boring.