Lars Lynching Liasons 5: [Game has ended]

[Lassr]

I haven't read the wolf forum but who were they debating killing the night they chose stessier? I would think that allowing him to live, even if he then created a run against tru1cy, would have been better as you could have watched who he contacted and seen possible hints about his knowledge. Hell, the wolves could have come up with some reasoning to make them "suspect tru1cy" just in case another wolf was contacted before tru1cy got lynched. More of a gamble maybe but I think it would have a higher pay off and it would have created doubt in stessier regarding tru1cy when he was still alive 2 nights later.

They didn't have time to debate. The Mentalist gets to send in his contact as soon as night hits and begin to talk immediately. I had sent my message to tru1cy like 2 hours after night fell. They had pretty much picked up on Scoop and Silky, though, and I remember at one point Lassr was mentioned, but I don't remember which day. Rev posted that Trig should go since the real wolves were high on his list.

I certainly would have preferred they let me live, but tru1cy was not to be trusted and I was going to pass on bogus information to him. It would have been interesting to see how that would have played out, though, because I had no clue who the wolves were and might have said I was visiting a wolf and then visited someone else or vice versa. It probably would have blown up in my face within 2 days unless I got lucky and found the cabal. When I saw St_dysan checking the board again, my first thought was that I would visit him next...so it's probably best that I died when I did.

Yes, my name was listed as a possible meal the night stessier contacted tru1cy. So, that was some good timing stessier!

[stessier]

Yes, my name was listed as a possible meal the night stessier contacted tru1cy. So, that was some good timing stessier!

Well, then...YAY ME!

I noticed that in Lars 4.0, you were the Mentalist. We both found wolves on the third night and died for our trouble. And both times we were seanced. And both times Kraegor was dead set against it. And both times Grund was another viable alternative to a lot of people even though he died on the first day.

Why do we even play these games if everything is predetermined???

[RevHempus71]

Yeah great game everybody. I have deffinately learned some new stuff to adapt to my play. Lars 6.0 I am in. had to get that out of the way early. Well, Chaos and Remus have got me addicted to this game. Please tell me I don't have to worry about DT"s if I don't get enough......
See you all in Trigg's game soon.

[Lassr]

Yes, my name was listed as a possible meal the night stessier contacted tru1cy. So, that was some good timing stessier!

Well, then...YAY ME!

I noticed that in Lars 4.0, you were the Mentalist. We both found wolves on the third night and died for our trouble. And both times we were seanced. And both times Kraegor was dead set against it. And both times Grund was another viable alternative to a lot of people even though he died on the first day.

Why do we even play these games if everything is predetermined???

Ha! You're right! I was almost certain kraegor was a wolf also because of that and, well, I was wrong...

[Kraegor]

in both cases I KNEW what the medium would say, thus YES I was against a seance where no new intel would be gained. And Lassr called me names! /sniffle.

I'd second grund's call, Lassr's scans were the turning point. w/o those scans it would have been much more difficult to finish with a village win. The cabal would have successfully come forward w/o the seer's help. But those scans narrowed the hiding pool substantially for the wolves.

[stessier]

in both cases I KNEW what the medium would say, thus YES I was against a seance where no new intel would be gained. And Lassr called me names! /sniffle.

Of course you did...we all did...He would say "Bring forth the MENTALIST."

What is it with all the Villagers in this town? The Mentalist talks to live people. The Medium talks to dead people. Very, very different, yet everyone treated the names as interchangeable. As a member of the more noble profession, I take offense!!!

[Kraegor]

Of course you did...we all did...He would say "Bring forth the MENTALIST."

ok so I knew what the medium AND mental-ist would say....

[Chaosraven]

From a rarely plays perspective, while I don't care for it, I think playing in absence is a much more legitamate play than the way most games have had people trying to pass codes by passing along what the game moderator has told them. I have long since thought that this form of play is unsportsmanlike and it was largely why I dropped out. It's intentionally trying to change the intended nature of the game.

As far as I can tell (and something I mentioned back when I first started and even before then when I joked with Remus about how he couldn't be lieing based on his posting almost exactly what was sent to him before day one is some game, the best way for the moderator to interact with the players is by publicly proclaimed and predetermined messages, as Trigger is planning to do. Roles and communications should be like giving out cards, where everyone knows what the cards say. Without an approximation of this mechanic the game is served with very little intrigue.

It is a Loophole that needs to be closed.
I have offered advice on how do such a thing. The easiest is to simply have the Information as Public Knowledge.
The Lack of PM to an innocent is an exploitable loophole, matching up with the "absent" play.
Individually unique PMs is time consuming and potentially more confusing/further from the spirit of the Game.

Much the way Lars avoided the Meta of "well all the orders were in so lets see who was left out of that little batch" with the 24hr rule. (despite some dead players impatience).

Absenteeism is an unfortunate aspect of the game that does have an impact. The Player in question is NOT someone whose orders/input we are waiting on. In this game a Cabal or a set of Wolves can still get majority without them behind the scenes, but a Mentalist, Seer, Hunter? Those people are removed from the Matrix for those Roles for a Meta reason.

Your "largely why I dropped out" is Puppies.

[LordMortis]

Your "largely why I dropped out" is Puppies.

It's an aspect of the game I actively dislike. It completely ruins the feel and the tactics of the game for me. The distraction and annoyance is enough to keep me generally from playing and it's a tactic that is used a lot either intentionally or unintentionally. If others dig on it, that's OK. It's just not my bag.

[Chaosraven]

Your "largely why I dropped out" is Puppies.

It's an aspect of the game I actively dislike. It completely ruins the feel and the tactics of the game for me. The distraction and annoyance is enough to keep me generally from playing and it's a tactic that is used a lot either intentionally or unintentionally. If others dig on it, that's OK. It's just not my bag.

I doubt anyone "likes" it, and I agree it needs to be resolved. Much the way in the Game where I was giving only the Innocents the ability to Post "anonymously" was broken (and pointed out in time) as they could Conclusively Prove themselves in a single "Outing" on the "BBS" that could not be faked.

I stated it was Puppies because you and I have had numerous discussions regarding the games and it never played a "large part" of your side of the discussion.

I have started a Meta Discussion thread for this purpose.

[Newcastle]

just wanted to throw this out there. I want to apologize to the wolves (and to the villagers) about my actions early in the game, when I asked to be lynched due to my being absent for a long period. I wasnt intending on making a meta play. I was simply hoping to get myself killed, so that my absence wouldnt hurt everyone elses game play. I know silent players can be a hassle and pain to deal with. Simply because you dont know where their thuoghts are because yo8u havent heard their rationale. It really wasnt a play to get me to be proven innnocent, and hence survive. It really was based on being able to give the village a safe lynch.

Anyway, was a fun game (the part that I did play). And look forward to seeing y'all in the next game.

[LordMortis]

I stated it was Puppies because you and I have had numerous discussions regarding the games and it never played a "large part" of your side of the discussion.

You're just not listening. (I know. I'm exceptionally easy to ignore.) I've been grumbling and commenting on this for every game, literally ever since Remus and I joked about it, I think in your game, maybe. The game where Remus all but quoted the post to him that stated he was an innocent villager and to acknowledge him I joked around and said I could have posted the exact same thing. I might have even been the one who started it with some sort allusion. I don't remember. But I do remember that was when I realized the system was broken and commented game after game as such.

I think the game was Lupus Prime...

Yep. That was where I really started becoming disenchanted... And where I led the game off by making the exact sort of play I don't like with:

"Hey! I can't seem to get into either computer or the lab! There seems to be some sort of system error. Who's running the fleabag operation? "

I was playing a game of Marco Polo that makes more sense to me then hiding codes you can fake in your posts, even though I think it's unfair and I think that tempation is too strong because it's there when it shouldn't be and I have made those obeservations in every game I've paid attention to since then.

[Chaosraven]

I stated it was Puppies because you and I have had numerous discussions regarding the games and it never played a "large part" of your side of the discussion.

You're just not listening. (I know. I'm exceptionally easy to ignore.) I've been grumbling and commenting on this for every game, literally ever since Remus and I joked about it, I think in your game, maybe. The game where Remus all but quoted the post to him that stated he was an innocent villager and to acknowledge him I joked around and said I could have posted the exact same thing. I might have even been the one who started it with some sort allusion. I don't remember. But I do remember that was when I realized the system was broken and commented game after game as such.

I think the game was Lupus Prime...

Yep. That was where I really started becoming disenchanted... And where I led the game off by making the exact sort of play I don't like with:

"Hey! I can't seem to get into either computer or the lab! There seems to be some sort of system error. Who's running the fleabag operation? "

I was playing a game of Marco Polo that makes more sense to me then hiding codes you can fake in your posts, even though I think it's unfair and I think that tempation is too strong because it's there when it shouldn't be and I have made those obeservations in every game I've paid attention to since then.

No, I agree that you have always been a proponent of eradicating that form of Marco Polo Meta, however you never stated it played even a small part in your decision to stop playing. That's what I meant.

[triggercut]

The coded messages thing cuts both ways. I think it is a legitimate and risky play.

In this game, coded messages and misinterpretation of same led to the day 1 debacle that saw our hunter outed and shooting an innocent villager, and nearly led to the village requesting a seance of a player who thought he was getting coded messages from a wolf (although that "wolf" was actually in the Cabal.) The beauty of these games is that for every action, there seems to be a counteraction. Every play is a double-edged sword.

[Chaosraven]

The coded messages thing cuts both ways. I think it is a legitimate and risky play.

In this game, coded messages and misinterpretation of same led to the day 1 debacle that saw our hunter outed and shooting an innocent villager, and nearly led to the village requesting a seance of a player who thought he was getting coded messages from a wolf (although that "wolf" was actually in the Cabal.) The beauty of these games is that for every action, there seems to be a counteraction. Every play is a double-edged sword.

True enough.

On Grund's "List" he had Bakh as the Hunter and me as the "Seer"
So I tried to use that to act as a Meat Shield for the real Seer, if still alive, and as a Meat Shield for other Good Specials still alive otherwise.

My suspect list prior to your death had 2 wolves, and 2 cabal, I believe.

[stessier]

The coded messages thing cuts both ways. I think it is a legitimate and risky play.

In this game, coded messages and misinterpretation of same led to the day 1 debacle that saw our hunter outed and shooting an innocent villager, and nearly led to the village requesting a seance of a player who thought he was getting coded messages from a wolf (although that "wolf" was actually in the Cabal.) The beauty of these games is that for every action, there seems to be a counteraction. Every play is a double-edged sword.

That player saw messages everywhere. He had two wolves as Cabal, one Cabal as Cabal, and two Cabal as wolves. (The other two wolves were meat shields who were trying to get lynched, so I think that should count in his favor.) So in the end, he was right!! They were all talking...just not to each other...or to him...hrmm

[Silky]

Well it certainly would have been exciting if Grund was able to make his reveal and case. I wonder how different the game might have gone.

[stessier]

Well it certainly would have been exciting if Grund was able to make his reveal and case. I wonder how different the game might have gone.

That's the amazing part. Bakhtosh shot to avoid outing specials. But Grund was going to honestly try and provide a wolf. Only the wolf was a Special. So Bakhtosh accomplished his goal. But Grund was good.

My head hurts.

[Grundbegriff]

He had two wolves as Cabal, one Cabal as Cabal, and two Cabal as wolves. (The other two wolves were meat shields who were trying to get lynched, so I think that should count in his favor.) So in the end, he was right!! They were all talking...just not to each other...or to him...hrmm

I'm good at spotting non-normals. I find it more difficult, though, to detect their alignment.

That's the amazing part. Bakhtosh shot to avoid outing specials. But Grund was going to honestly try and provide a wolf. Only the wolf was a Special. So Bakhtosh accomplished his goal. But Grund was good.

My head hurts.

And then, beautifully, the village killed the real Sorcerer anyhow. That effectively closed the door on all those issues and allowed for a fresh start of sorts.

[Sectoid]

Well done? Everyone. We (the good guys) won! Yay us! Well, with little to no help from me, again. I guess I only served to confuse the heck out of Remus. I think I'll stick to that. Anyway good game everyone, especially the wolves. Figures that my first vote was right, even though I did it as a joke. See you all in Trigg's game I suppose.

[st_dysan]

My apologies to all... circumstances conspired against me and I feel horrible about it, especially to my furry brothers. I've played much better games and will play much better in the future, i hope i didnt ruin anyones experience. But i will kill again.

[Austin]

My apologies to all... circumstances conspired against me and I feel horrible about it, especially to my furry brothers. I've played much better games and will play much better in the future, i hope i didnt ruin anyones experience. But i will kill again.

No worries. Didn't ruin mine; we won. But seriously I enjoy having you in the games.

[RevHempus71]

Nothing to think about St-D. I enjoyed my second game very much. I have heard about your play from others and look forward to having you in other games in the future.

[Remus West]

My apologies to all... circumstances conspired against me and I feel horrible about it, especially to my furry brothers. I've played much better games and will play much better in the future, i hope i didnt ruin anyones experience. But i will kill again.

I agree that was no where near your normal excellent play level.

That said, I think you have shown in the past that you participate in games so it would be silly to say anything other than "Eh, life happens. Glad you are o.k and I will look forward to the next time we play."

[Lars]

I'm glad that everyone enjoyed themselves for the most part. I enjoy running the games, it's very interesting to watch people reason stuff out and to see their thought processes in action as they try to peace together a puzzle that seems to be constantly changing. I'm sure there will be a 6.0, but I won't do that until late spring at the earliest, these games take forever.

I'm feeling like the game rules currently seem pretty balanced, meaning that both sides have a pretty good chance to win the game. I'm thinking of a couple game tweaks, and I wanted to see peoples thoughts on them:

* Cutting back on the number of Cablist scans to perhaps 1 or 2 during the whole game
* Allowing the Werewolf Hunter to use his 1 shot to neutralize the Beserker Werewolf if the Werewolf Hunter is still alive when the Beserker Werewolf attacks, and the Hunter has not already used his 1 shot already.

My reasoning is that the Cablist seem to actually get more information on the dead players than the wolves do, and the reason that I gave the wolves some limited information on dead people is to give them an option to attempt to hide in a specials role if they needed to. As it stands now, the wolves can never do that because it's pretty much guaranteed that the Cablist will know most of the roles of the dead anyhow, so by limiting some of the scans, a desperate wolf might be able to pull it off.

The change to Werewolf Hunter would do 2 things: It would give the Werewolf Hunter an extra incentive to keep hidden and stay alive to counter the Beserker Werewolf, and it would give incentive to the Beserker Werewolf to stay hidden as long as possible, which he really should be doing anyhow.

Thoughts?

[Chaosraven]

* Cutting back on the number of Cablist scans to perhaps 1 or 2 during the whole game

Hmmmm. Perhaps 1 Scan per Cabalist? Only one per night, after use that Cabalist is "done" and in the case a Cabalist that hasn't used his Scan gets killed it isn't left over?

Remus, Grund, and Austin are the Cabal.
They decide to use Grunds scan first.
If Remus is killed that night or lynched during the day, only Austins remains.

This assumes you want to Limit the Cabal (which may be considered unbalanced in that they are Masons and Priests)

* Allowing the Werewolf Hunter to use his 1 shot to neutralize the Beserker Werewolf if the Werewolf Hunter is still alive when the Beserker Werewolf attacks, and the Hunter has not already used his 1 shot already.

So if Alive, what happens? Lynch tru1cy and if Bakh was alive, would he be revealed as Hunter? Informed he used his shot? Would it still be a lynch or a shot with a lynch still available?

[Lassr]

* Cutting back on the number of Cablist scans to perhaps 1 or 2 during the whole game

Hmmmm. Perhaps 1 Scan per Cabalist? Only one per night, after use that Cabalist is "done" and in the case a Cabalist that hasn't used his Scan gets killed it isn't left over?

Remus, Grund, and Austin are the Cabal.
They decide to use Grunds scan first.
If Remus is killed that night or lynched during the day, only Austins remains.

I like that idea. Makes them have to decide to risk losing a scan if they do not do them early and die before getting the chance.