00 - WoT - Game Over - Chris in Hot Water

[Remus West]

Sean, this rule set did HUGELY favor the bad guys. They were given the ability to make 4 day kills. 2 of which superceded the Good Guys ability to do anything. They were given knowledge of their kills while the village was not after Aram was gone. The Seer could only be mostly sure if he had found a bad guy with his scan. Still, you guys made good plays even if you got lucky.

Killing me when you did likely saved Sean's life because I had almost pulled my Grund vote due to his accusation of Sean. The only reason I did not was I wanted the information regarding the failed bandwagon for sure (which we failed to get due to Aram being dead). Then you killed me thinking I might be Perrin when I was nothing but I was going to come out full bore against Sean at that point. Not that it would have mattered because my other two suspects at the time were way off. Ah well.

Anyway, I think with a couple tweaks this could be a very balance ruleset and I thought it fun if annoying due to the length of some of the nights.

[Austin]

Going blind is teh suck though - ruins most of the enjoyment for the blinded folks.

I agree losing Aram stunk, but you weren't completely blind. Two of the Bad Guys would be pretty clear when lynched. And Perrin could scan the dead and let you know if it became important - or share using one of the talking things. Granted, it didn't work out that way because of RL issues, but it was possible.

Right, it wasn't a slam on the rules, but it did suck.

[Lassr]

Pleased to meet you. Hope you guessed our names.

Indeed I did.

Only thing I'm hoping is that Scoop didn't recover the Life artifact and then fail to use it here. Please tell me you guys still had that.

LIFE is still sitting in my tent with the armor. I did not protect it last night because it's use would have brought back Unagi and we still would have won. If you guessed right and used it on Sean then we would still win with the kill tonight.

[Sean, Minister of KtSP]

Sean, this rule set did HUGELY favor the bad guys. They were given the ability to make 4 day kills. 2 of which superceded the Good Guys ability to do anything.

Yeah, but we only used three of those day kills, and every single one of them was entirely circumstantial. Not to mention that two of those could have just as easily been used on us, so how does that favor EVIL? The rules didn't favor us there, luck did.

They were given knowledge of their kills while the village was not after Aram was gone. The Seer could only be mostly sure if he had found a bad guy with his scan.

While it may be a weakness in the rules that taking out Aram leaves the village blind, it's not the rules' fault that Aram got himself pegged and killed by Monday Night.

Still, you guys made good plays even if you got lucky.

We made some very good plays, but we also got VERY lucky. I'll give you that. Again, I don't see that as the rules favoring us.

Killing me when you did likely saved Sean's life because I had almost pulled my Grund vote due to his accusation of Sean. The only reason I did not was I wanted the information regarding the failed bandwagon for sure (which we failed to get due to Aram being dead). Then you killed me thinking I might be Perrin when I was nothing but I was going to come out full bore against Sean at that point.

I had a pretty good feeling you were coming after me in the morning, and that factored into the decision to kill you as well. Would have sucked if you'd had the armor.

I thought it fun if annoying due to the length of some of the nights.

Some of the days were no picnic, either.

[Lassr]

Further questions: Hitting the specials as early as you did: Luck or good guesses or what?

good guesses. Sectoid was acting like the game where he was the seer and Bubbles was scanned as a one power user and we zapped him immediately when we realized we found LIFE. We assumed mipe was Thom.

[Kraegor]

If Min found "No Power", then it was either Good or Camo. Why does that suck?

and if she found power she learned what?
in comparison what did aginor learn in the same situation?

min would never know who was converted. was aginor constrained by the same thing?

Clear information vs Vague information. Aginor never had to wonder.

Min knows someone is powered. So what? what can she do with that knowledge? She can quickly reveal!! "I don't know if they are evil but they have powers!!"

[qoute="stessier"]
Not entirely. Had he been hidden it could have provided one day of No Pet and clean kill of Graendal. Also, prevented Bad Guys from faking Pet.
[/quote]

in concept, yes. in practice, no. Timing makes it useless. Dark can circumvent the risk easily.

The Day Scan only provided the generic name of the item. Unless they had already had the item or someone outed an item, the Darkfriends had no way to know if something was good.

The three thefts part is true, but its amazing how rarely that worked in their favor.

it's not about something being good. it's not about knowing the power. You read how someone is behaving during the day. You then scan them and see an item in their tent. You steal from them the following night.

Dark had foresight. Light had hinsight.

Always a step behind.

---------

on the whole a few tweaks here and there and it's a worthy ruleset. But as it is, Light is overmatched.

[Unagi]

Bad guys being able to day scan... so they could steal at night: crippling. that's 3 separate thefts at night one being a known target.
Bad guy Night scan of one power users... i.e. "hey where are the good powers..."

None of our day scans resulted in the theft of 'the good powers' the following night.

The 'day scan' helped mainly just now at the very end game to verify that ChrisG wasn't lying when he was so kind to tell us that he had the Armor and that it was available to be stolen at night.

[Kraegor]

We made some very good plays, but we also got VERY lucky. I'll give you that. Again, I don't see that as the rules favoring us.

when you can kill your own guy for the hell of it? that ain't luck.

[Grundbegriff]

Also, didn't grund at the beginning say that lassr is evil?

Nope.

I thought Sean was evil. He seemed so odd and quiet. However, I had to do a lot of backflips before arriving there, and even then the picture was clouded.

I thought Lassr was a Masonette. I had the strong feeling that he and Unagi were talking (i.e., enjoying one another's trust), but I guessed Masonhood rather than Darkfiendishness.

Excellent job, Evildoers! Those who say the rules favored the Dark too strongly are just bitter. They favored the Dark slightly (by way of lynchblindness after only one strike (the death of Aram)), but Light still could've won the game if only we had discerned the evil among us. We didn't.

[Unagi]

it's not about something being good. it's not about knowing the power. You read how someone is behaving during the day. You then scan them and see an item in their tent. You steal from them the following night.

Again, In our game it was never about the day scan.
(In fact, on WED and FRI we didn't even submit our Day Scan.)

Your behaviour made it obvious that you had the EGO - we didn't day scan you - we just robbed you on you behaviour. If we scanned you and saw that you had OBJECT#12 - why would that have made it so clear that OBJECT#12 was important?

[Kraegor]

None of our day scans resulted in the theft of 'the good powers' the following night.

The 'day scan' helped mainly just now at the very end game to verify that ChrisG wasn't lying when he was so kind to tell us that he had the Armor and that it was available to be stolen at night.

did the scan provide information of a tent without requiring the usage of a night theft?

answer would be yes.

did it provide daytime i.e. LOOK AHEAD intel to affect whether or not you would bother stealing from a target?

YES. how is that so??? well obviously... if you were planning to steal from them you frickin scanned em first!

[Kraegor]

Excellent job, Evildoers! Those who say the rules favored the Dark too strongly are just bitter. They favored the Dark slightly (by way of lynchblindness after only one strike (the death of Aram)), but Light still could've won the game if only we had discerned the evil among us. We didn't.

bitter? More or less accurate. I certainly blundered more than once.

[Lassr]

it was more luck on getting the powerful artifacts than the rules set. If those had been turned against us we would have been bitching about the rules. One thing that does favor bad guys, we can just blast away, the good guys have to be certain who they are blasting.

Our easy win was more due to very good guesses in the beginning then great timing and luck on finding items.

but I'll take it.

Now, when triggercut said "we must must must must lynch LASSR today if I die", I knew then that he was the one that stole the LIFE out of my tent. We found EGO that same night and we were desperately trying to get a hold of Sean to use it before triggercut could blast me (from the posts it looks like triggercut tried and his PM was lost somehow). More luck.

[Lassr]

oh and to answer scoop's question, why did we compel a vote against Unagi.

It was going to be a 4-4 tie unless we could get some one to vote with us. All 3 of us jumping on the compel vote would be highly suspicious and we were still in a situation where we could lose.

Take Unagi out and we had an almost sure victory.

[Sean, Minister of KtSP]

and if she found power she learned what?
in comparison what did aginor learn in the same situation?

Min's scan revealed a 75% chance of someone being Evil on a positive result, but 100% of us could be found this way.

Aginor's scan revealed a 100% chance of a Good Special on a positive result (except that pesky CAMO means it wasn't a 100% chance), but we could only find two out of six Good Specials this way, and only ONE of the THREE highest priority Specials gave a positive result.

We killed Aram by deduction and luck, and Perrin by deduction and self-confirmation.

We only discovered if our night kills were good choices as long as Wormwood was alive, and we had no way of knowing if we were right about Bubbles.

[Kelric]

Oh well. I had been planning on gearing up my play last week but didn't have the time at work and the Light wound up being completely blind so I just said screw it.

[Sean, Minister of KtSP]

Frankly, I think you guys were far more handicapped by Chaosraven and Rev's computer troubles than by anything in the rules.

I thought Sean was evil. He seemed so odd and quiet. However, I had to do a lot of backflips before arriving there, and even then the picture was clouded.

It's kind of funny that my quietness made people think I was Evil. It really was because of my job, and not my specialness.

My job usually involves doing anything but sitting near a computer. And frequently involves 10 to 12 hour days. The iPhone helps, but less than you'd think. While I can read enough to keep up, I usually don't have time to stand around and type on the phone.

I really didn't think I was any more quiet than I've been in any other game.

[Remus West]

Giving the ability of Shooter to the Hunter role was done to balance out the Beserker role. This game had two Beserkers in Wormwood and Greandal (and that was the weakest part of Greandal's power). Yet nobody had a certain shooter power save through the artifacts -- one of which could be and was expended by Evil. Combine that with the 2 day shots removing the village chance to lynch anyone during the day they were used and it is a HUGE advantage for the evil team. Think about how big it is when the good team makes a protection save. It is the same type of thing only more so because the protection doesn't kill a player from the other side.

I'm not saying good could not have won, we could have. I am saying the game was heavily slanted. Had Evil made stupid plays they could have lost, had they not played well they could have lost, had they not gotten lucky they could have lost. They did a lot of good things and thus won but they also started with a huge advantage. Not that it matters as I have been on the side that one due to huge advantage before (CR's Alien game for one). I like the ruleset, just think it needs tweaked.

For instance:

Ditch Ego. It is a russian roulette game for the good guys and a sniper for the bad.

Alter Life just a bit so that if Graendal gets shot the Compelled does not die. Balefire removes her from the thread before she makes her vote the day before than it certainly removes her before she Compels that night.

Give Min actual Seer powers regarding which of the one power users she has found, good/evil one power user or not a one power user response. Aginor already knows that from his scans.

[Remus West]

Sean, I am not going to tell you why I thought you were evil but it had nothing to do with silence. If you get Evil again and do the same thing I will be able to call you out on it.

[Unagi]

First I would like to thank stessier for hosting the game and all his hard work. Well done stessier.

I would like to thank ChrisGrenard for his kind words earlier, and to answer his question. I think our win was part 'skill' (we really did a lot of analysis and actually KNEW the rules, unlike a great number of other players) and partly 'luck' - with all of these objects and the random roll of the dice as to who wins them - one must give Lady Luck her props.

We detected a quiet Sectoid - we thought maybe he was a Maiden, and if not - we were pretty sure that he was a special of some sort.
We were right.
That led up nicely to the Grund lynch, where it could be argued that killing a Good-Grund could be repaired once we learned that. We knew that data would never come.

In fact, I went and looked for the player that seemed to be the most bummed about that loss of data...

No Aram? That sucks.

This screamed to be missing the final sentance : "I have the Tang-o'Life!!"
So that's how LIFE was (first) found.

Mr.Bubbles was seeming to be Special so we scanned him.
When he came up as a One Power, we knew we had MIN - why?

Well, that leads to mipe. mipe. I am going to be honest with you here. Kraegor was spot-on, you ran your mouth WAY too much. We had you listed as 'Thom' very early in the game and that helped US greatly in our move on Mr.Bubbles. In short, your declarations of being a pretty unimportant special was Mr.Bubbles death sentence.

This lead nicely to lynching Austin... Sorta.

Yes, some Good-Guy mistakes were made (don't laugh Kraegor).
First - I do want to congratulate Triggercut - he was the first and fairly early named all three of us. That was very nicely done! Very.
Sadly, this was followed up by triggercut searching Lassr and finding the LIFE on him.
Triggercut declared his knowledge of the LIFE being found on Lassr (not to you all, but that was clear to US) (the mistake was not to tell everyone right then and there WHY Lassr MUST DIE).
This was interesting when it happened. Triggecut managed to tell us he was the one that needed to be killed and that he was the one that had the Tang-o'Life, and at a time that it was critical for us to find it and silence the man that knew it. So, instead of helping the Good-Guys nail a bad-guy and retain the toy, his declaration actually helped us know to silence him and to get back the toy and keep it out of the Good-Guy's hands. I am not sure why he didn't just shoot Lassr, as I suspect his 'missing post to a moderator' was all about - but - why did he even Chime In about it? I suspect actually that he wanted to share with everyone his results of the night - even though (and I am not sure why he thought this) I think he felt he would not be alive in the morning (being a Night Kill or something) What was that all about triggercut, Why did you make that strange declaration right before day-break?

And them Kreagor sitting on the Austin vote (he was actually sitting on his choice to Shoot Me or Chris) as long as he did really drew the spot lite to him being the one that had the EGO. So we bum rushed him and got it.
That was a 'You snooze you lose' moment that had other ramifications beyond just not shooting Me or Chris. At this stage of the game - EVERYONE wanted that day to pass. We could check names off that would have shot Austin if they could have - and the list became fairly clear who was sitting on EGO.

I was actually very tickled by Scoop and ChrisG's conversation all day yesterday. All the self congratulations for finding Wormwood, and all of Scoops declarations that it was a tactical blunder.

You guys do realize that was the Whole Point, right?
The thing with yesterday was this: If Sean or Lassr were killed, that was a BIG PROBLEM.
So, we made the move that forced the play yesterday (as long as we could find one person willing to add to Kraegor's forced vote).
(I thought it would be Kraegor that searched and found the Walking Stick EGO on me thought, not ChrisG - but that worked out even better.)

I'd love to discuss how you guys played The Pet. Triggercut in particular. How is making a "tell" that you are totally compelled following the spirit of this game and how that role was defined. This game started off and I think Chaos gave it an honest effort. Then triggercut announced that he had no intention of actually playing that part of the game. That just seemed a bit lame to me. Sorry triggercut, I like you and I think you are a good player and above all, a good sport. I just think something made you not play that out as a good sport would have. I don't know how I would have played it either. I was pretty disappointed in how people played that out though, and your declaration of a planned "Compel - Tell" was a bit of a slap in the face to the ruleset and that game-piece. You were not alone in this treatment of the game-piece.

And then we have Scoop.

I simply can't understand why they would compel kraegor to vote for one of them. I think it was a dumb move but I suspect I am missing something (as usual).

Too busy looking at the trees - you missed the entire forest my dear friend.

You really need to read the rules of these games until you feel you have a strong handle on them. You must have described the use of the LIFE toy incorrectly - well - EVERY SINGLE TIME you spoke about it's use. You were corrected by players and moderators and the rules were even cut-n-pasted in the middle of you discussing it. You do see now, right - that the LIFE became meaninless to you guys, BECAUSE we had me lynched. It was no 'blunder' it was pure genius.

[Semaj]

it seemed like circumstances handed the game to the bad guys.

Chaosraven was a no-show this entire game, as was rev.

The good guys were lynching blind and as such, few wanted to go through and see why people were dying. The bad guys got 2 free day kills and got them instantly as day turned, essentially giving them 3 kills in a row where no one could do anything or read much into it other than "There goes a boatload of good guys" twice.

When people had the power to do something good, they didn't use it. And no one seemed to want to read until it was way too late.

The rule set did favor the bad guys, but not enough to claim thats what made this game theirs. The items were highly important to winning this game and the fact they could work in groups of 3's trading and stealing gave em a leg up which they used to perfection while everyone kept trying to steal from pretty much everyone else.

[stessier]

Giving the ability of Shooter to the Hunter role was done to balance out the Beserker role. This game had two Beserkers in Wormwood and Greandal (and that was the weakest part of Greandal's power). Yet nobody had a certain shooter power save through the artifacts

There was Aram who could kill after a Good Guy was lynched.

I was really bummed when he died. I wanted to see how that would work...

[Unagi]

Sean, this rule set did HUGELY favor the bad guys. They were given the ability to make 4 day kills. 2 of which superceded the Good Guys ability to do anything. They were given knowledge of their kills while the village was not after Aram was gone. The Seer could only be mostly sure if he had found a bad guy with his scan. Still, you guys made good plays even if you got lucky.

This is a very unfair assessment I think.

2 of our Day Kills were via 'Zerkers' - so I will give you that we had 1 extra Zerker...
2 of the other Day Kills were open to All Players - and hence don't count toward favoring one side or the other, although - I will admit they are more easily used by us - so I will give you a little there too.
3 bad guys.
15 Good guys. We had a lot of killing to do Remus and even you must admit that it was still not a sure win until we re-found LIFE and tracked down the story of the OWL. And none of that was because of 'dice roll' (aside from the fact that all the items smelled of dice)

However, The fact that we had knowledge of our kills was only because of Wormwood - just as Perrin / Aram gave that info to the Good Guys. What's so unusual about that?

The evil Seer couldn't detect most of the specials.

The Seer (Min), I can see what you are saying about her - but I will tell you that we feared her for sure. I think it's agreed that Thom was a fairly week special (although NOT a throw away special) - but if Min got a scan, well... I would have shared it.

[ChrisGrenard]

Here are my thoughts on the game rules:

I think that the aspect of the powered artifacts needs some serious work. My complaints against them is that many of them heavily favor the evil team. Here's why:

Due to that it's impossible to defend your stuff, having the life or ego early is completely useless for the good guys. You don't know any bad guys, so why use it that day? Of course, by the next day, it's probably been stolen.

Eventually, these steals are likely to land it in the hands of the evil team, who will immediately use them. They have no reason *not* to. It's a free extra kill for the day, while depriving the good guys of their lynch.

The armor is *potentially* useful, but in practice it's likely to be stolen by other villagers, who then *must* activate it immediately or lose it. Again, strategy goes out the window as far as timing when you are forced to use something to keep it.

Basically, due to the aspect of randomness along with having multiple bad guys, the powered artifacts become tools of the evil team rather than the good team.

This is where I think the inequality lies. The aspects of knowledge actually became far less severe after you recognize that only one bad guy won't give out info, but all the killing powers that the good team had did not work out at all due to lack of early info.

In other words, this game gives a minor advantage to the bad guys early on and a fairly sizable advantage towards the middle of the game.

Now, overall I must say that I don't think the bad guys have any more than a slight advantage. A lot of their win can be attributed to bad plays on the good team. However, I do think that powered items need to be reworked.

Plus, I hate any game mechanics that add random chance to the mix.

[triggercut]

I had Sean and Unagi made, but didn't want to give too much away. Lassr was the one I put together last. The night before the day I died, I found the entire badguy Tangerine stash in his tent--five of the damn things, including Life.

The PM that never was had me attempting to use it on Lassr. Oh well.

The lack of a check-in mechanism with three potential killing props was a major hole in this ruleset. The tangerines made things interesting, but that loophole needs to be closed.

[Remus West]

Sean, this rule set did HUGELY favor the bad guys. They were given the ability to make 4 day kills. 2 of which superceded the Good Guys ability to do anything. They were given knowledge of their kills while the village was not after Aram was gone. The Seer could only be mostly sure if he had found a bad guy with his scan. Still, you guys made good plays even if you got lucky.

This is a very unfair assessment I think.

2 of our Day Kills were via 'Zerkers' - so I will give you that we had 1 extra Zerker...
2 of the other Day Kills were open to All Players - and hence don't count toward favoring one side or the other, although - I will admit they are more easily used by us - so I will give you a little there too.
3 bad guys.
15 Good guys. We had a lot of killing to do Remus and even you must admit that it was still not a sure win until we re-found LIFE and tracked down the story of the OWL. And none of that was because of 'dice roll' (aside from the fact that all the items smelled of dice)

However, The fact that we had knowledge of our kills was only because of Wormwood - just as Perrin / Aram gave that info to the Good Guys. What's so unusual about that?

The evil Seer couldn't detect most of the specials.

The Seer (Min), I can see what you are saying about her - but I will tell you that we feared her for sure. I think it's agreed that Thom was a fairly week special (although NOT a throw away special) - but if Min got a scan, well... I would have shared it.

Any blind lynch senario favors the bad guys. This is a game of using information. When the good guys have no way to know if they succeeded in nailing a bad guy (even if 2/3rds of the time we would have) it matters. A lot. Imagine if I had pulled my vote from Grund and gotten Sean lynched that day instead. We learn nothing and the next day we likely lynch Grund anyway as there were enough who felt he was evil. Having a single player that can check the side the lynched played for is pretty weak IMO as that player has to come forward to make that information useful at all. Then they are gone. Look how much effort went into reexamining the Bandwagons of day 1 once Rev told everyone that Grund was indeed good. Zero. Might work for this game to identify Aginor but suppose you had gotten shot instead of lynched? How would the village have known it was a good thing? They couldn't. Same with the Bubbles thing, they made they correct assumption about it but he could have been evil and the result of that day would have been no different.

[LordMortis]

Slow interpretation of the rules is why bad guys had an advantage. Had they picked up quickly then they would have used item kills as quickly as possible and openly. "I have this. I am going to use it." Defend yourself before I take you down." Every turn an item of death was held by a good guy was an increased chance that the bad guys were going to get it and use it.

Bad guys could settle in and go. Good guys had to figure shit out.

I don't know if it was intentional or not. I assume it was because it's how I would have played but what made the bad guys game was to continually assissinate from the pool of most likely next lynch, leaving very little room for setting someone up to lynch and then letting them live in a trap, and also leaving the village having to start more toward scratch every day. Fortune does not favor the bold in these games.

[Unagi]

Sean, this rule set did HUGELY favor the bad guys. They were given the ability to make 4 day kills. 2 of which superceded the Good Guys ability to do anything. They were given knowledge of their kills while the village was not after Aram was gone. The Seer could only be mostly sure if he had found a bad guy with his scan. Still, you guys made good plays even if you got lucky.

This is a very unfair assessment I think.

2 of our Day Kills were via 'Zerkers' - so I will give you that we had 1 extra Zerker...
2 of the other Day Kills were open to All Players - and hence don't count toward favoring one side or the other, although - I will admit they are more easily used by us - so I will give you a little there too.
3 bad guys.
15 Good guys. We had a lot of killing to do Remus and even you must admit that it was still not a sure win until we re-found LIFE and tracked down the story of the OWL. And none of that was because of 'dice roll' (aside from the fact that all the items smelled of dice)

However, The fact that we had knowledge of our kills was only because of Wormwood - just as Perrin / Aram gave that info to the Good Guys. What's so unusual about that?

The evil Seer couldn't detect most of the specials.

The Seer (Min), I can see what you are saying about her - but I will tell you that we feared her for sure. I think it's agreed that Thom was a fairly week special (although NOT a throw away special) - but if Min got a scan, well... I would have shared it.

[LordMortis]

Slow interpretation of the rules is why bad guys had an advantage. Had they picked up quickly then they would have used item kills as quickly as possible and openly. "I have this. I am going to use it." Defend yourself before I take you down." Every turn an item of death was held by a good guy was an increased chance that the bad guys were going to get it and use it.

Bad guys could settle in and go. Good guys had to figure shit out.

I don't know if it was intentional or not. I assume it was because it's how I would have played but what made the bad guys game was to continually assissinate from the pool of most likely next lynch, leaving very little room for setting someone up to lynch and then letting them live in a trap, and also leaving the village having to start more toward scratch every day. Fortune does not favor the bold in these games.

[triggercut]

Yep, knowledge in this game is power.

A good guy picks up a Tangerine that of Life or Ego in this game, and he thinks...."Hmm, I'd better be careful *if* I use this, and make sure I hit a badguy." A badguy picks up one of those tangerines and thinks "Bam. You're dead." In this ruleset particularly, they could act quickly and rapidly, before votes were cast and discussion was made.

What I want to know from surviving idiot villagers in this game is how, after I posted as my last post "Whatever happens, Lassr must must must die" (thus leading to my incineration) that none of y'all managed to vote against him?

[Lassr]

What I want to know from surviving idiot villagers in this game is how, after I posted as my last post "Whatever happens, Lassr must must must die" (thus leading to my incineration) that none of y'all managed to vote against him?

Yes, I would like to know this also. I was prepared to defend myself by saying the bad guys must have zapped triggercut in an attempt to frame me. I thought I was dying the next day...

And yes, I agree the rules favored the bad guys but I don't think it was "hugely". It just turned out that way do to the series of events, But anyhow, I was on the losing bad guy team in Chaos game which was hugely in the favor of the good guys. So we're even in my case!

[Kraegor]

I sent this to stessier

as a note on playstyle.

I only have to vote Unagi.

I don't have to indict. I don't have to support.

The conflict in compulsion is a direct result of the lack of clear direction. Much the same as a reflexive response of punching someone in the face. apologizing. punching them in the face again.... telling them you don't want to hurt them... another punch...

all outward communication is contrary. only the punch exists. Just as the compulsion directs. Vote unagi. That's it.

Seems within the spirit of the design. Had a "vote" inherently meant "provide justification" the concepts of "indict" and "support" would be redundant and in fact more powerful than they already are. I am presuming that "indict" is a means to force a choice between a concentrated attack by the pet vs. a diffuse attack.

they chose to give me unfocused direction. I am exploiting that.

[Austin]

I sent this to stessier

as a note on playstyle.

I only have to vote Unagi.

I don't have to indict. I don't have to support.

The conflict in compulsion is a direct result of the lack of clear direction. Much the same as a reflexive response of punching someone in the face. apologizing. punching them in the face again.... telling them you don't want to hurt them... another punch...

all outward communication is contrary. only the punch exists. Just as the compulsion directs. Vote unagi. That's it.

Seems within the spirit of the design. Had a "vote" inherently meant "provide justification" the concepts of "indict" and "support" would be redundant and in fact more powerful than they already are. I am presuming that "indict" is a means to force a choice between a concentrated attack by the pet vs. a diffuse attack.

they chose to give me unfocused direction. I am exploiting that.

That was my take also. They had me vote for Bubbles. I was also conversing with Bubbles privately. Had they said, vote Bubbles and indict Bubbles they would have gotten a different response from me. That said I only had a couple posts before Bubbles was dead and my compulsion broken. I'm not sure I like items going off and killing people without people having time to check in though. And we certainly were not helped by a couple good guys having computer failures. That said, it's a ruleset worth tweaking I think. I'm growing weary of complex though and would like to see another back to basics at some point.

[Unagi]

I sent this to stessier

as a note on playstyle.

I only have to vote Unagi.

I don't have to indict. I don't have to support.

The conflict in compulsion is a direct result of the lack of clear direction. Much the same as a reflexive response of punching someone in the face. apologizing. punching them in the face again.... telling them you don't want to hurt them... another punch...

all outward communication is contrary. only the punch exists. Just as the compulsion directs. Vote unagi. That's it.

Seems within the spirit of the design. Had a "vote" inherently meant "provide justification" the concepts of "indict" and "support" would be redundant and in fact more powerful than they already are. I am presuming that "indict" is a means to force a choice between a concentrated attack by the pet vs. a diffuse attack.

they chose to give me unfocused direction. I am exploiting that.

What the hell?



How do you say you don't need to 'Indict' or 'Support' - hell why don't you add that you don't need to 'vote' Why not come in here and say:

"I VOTE UNAGI FOR PRESIDENT `08 !! Although I vote:  Lassr 
 
...in this game."

People that were not willing to play with the ruleset should not have signed up. People that signed up should play with the ruleset. I don't get your point Kraegor. Did you just not like that game-piece? That's fine and I can actually get behind you on that opinion - but playing it out like that was not, and you know it, what stessier requested.

I'd honestly like to discuss all this, and I don't want to ruffle feathers really.

[Semaj]

Ok I agree with Kraegor...

Vote means: put your vote on
Indict means: make someone look guilty
Support means: Make someone look less guilty by throwing your support behind them.

My main point of contention from compelled people is... Outside of this little tidbit you should play the exact same way you normally would. Why not indict more than just the one person. It doesn't say as pet the only person you can indict is X, the only person you can support is Y.... Vote means you have to vote for someone, but why not vote a few times before switching over. You are still the same person... Just have your vote where it needs to be when it matters, not right away and all day.

Once your pet doesn't mean you do your little bit and then run off for the rest of the day. Keep playing the damn game while you are pet.

[stessier]

but playing it out like that was not, and you know it, what stessier requested.

I'd honestly like to discuss all this, and I don't want to ruffle feathers really.

It's true, it's not really what I intended, but I wrote the rules as well as I could and hoped for the best. I realized early on that people would play to how they interpreted the rules and there was really nothing I could do about it short of telling everyone exactly how to play in each specific case.

Kraegor's explanation made sense and I really didn't mind him going in that direction. There was nothing in the rules to prevent it and I certainly couldn't expect people to read my mind for what I intended. I really think it is a flaw in the role more than in how people played it.

[Unagi]

Triggercut, what I don't understand was why you came in with that post at all regarding the need to kill Lassr. Why Broadcast, unless you thought you were the night kill or something???


Austin, if we waited (and I am not saying we shouldn't have) for everyone to check in each day, how would that have worked with CR's absence (and Rev's). Also, can you articulate why it's important for everyone to check in exactly? I wasn't getting why you felt that was unfair earlier in the game.
For what it's worth - as the Evil side, I saw a missing Good-Chaos as a severe hit to The Bad Guys. Everyone knows how easy it is to make people think CR is toying with their minds (of course you do), but it's almost impossible if he isn't even posting. This whole game, I looked at the CR absense as a hit to the Bad-Guys, not a hit to the Good-Guys... hell - we killed him as 'a trusted' pretty much.

[stessier]

Incidentally, Grund came up with a much better set of order for next time (if there ever is a next time):

(a) Defend Bubba if Bubba requires defense
(b) Do everything you can do to get Sue killed (which is even stronger than "Vote against").

The "everything in your power" part would let them use toys as well. That could have a bunch of fun, unintended consequences.

Edit: found the actual rules Grund suggested.

[Grundbegriff]

I had Sean and Unagi made, but didn't want to give too much away.

Why not? What was the possible harm in "giving it away"?

I'd think that if you'd really had them made, you'd have shouted it from the rooftops and not wavered.

[stessier]

For what it's worth - as the Evil side, I saw a missing Good-Chaos as a severe hit to The Bad Guys. Everyone knows how easy it is to make people think CR is toying with their minds (of course you do), but it's almost impossible if he isn't even posting. This whole game, I looked at the CR absense as a hit to the Bad-Guys, not a hit to the Good-Guys... hell - we killed him as 'a trusted' pretty much.

Oh yeah...Chaos should have his new computer today. The night you killed him, he had just made the effort to get all caught up on the reading so he could really jump in and participate. I think he was miffed at the wasted effort.