War Of The Roses-Remus not executed on Friday...

[Remus West]

 Remus West 
 


I want out of this joke/mess.

[Mr Bubbles]

Well not the reaction I was hoping for, but if other people feel that way maybe we best stop the game right now. An empty victory is a victory not worth winning.

[triggercut]

Seems to be the consensus. Sorry. I'm willing to go forward but I'm not sure anyone else is.

The biggest flaw I've seen here is there's very little game to play on a regular forum, and as such that really kills the interaction. What happens in this thread basically becomes accusations and executions.

[stessier]

The biggest flaw I've seen here is there's very little game to play on a regular forum, and as such that really kills the interaction. What happens in this thread basically becomes accusations and executions.

I also found it hard to plot in the Family Forum knowing that the Betrayer was there and sharing everything. And as mentioned, it looks like the Underpowered side has very little chance/incentive to keep playing.


Are we officially done, then? Because I have an idea what happened to the White Rose on the first day and it doesn't involve anyone betraying anyone else.

[triggercut]

The biggest flaw I've seen here is there's very little game to play on a regular forum, and as such that really kills the interaction. What happens in this thread basically becomes accusations and executions.

I also found it hard to plot in the Family Forum knowing that the Betrayer was there and sharing everything. And as mentioned, it looks like the Underpowered side has very little chance/incentive to keep playing.


Are we officially done, then? Because I have an idea what happened to the White Rose on the first day and it doesn't involve anyone betraying anyone else.

I suppose so. I and I agree that the unbalancing of the teams didn't have the effect I wanted or thought it would.

For the record: your theory is dead on the money.

[stessier]

For the record: your theory is dead on the money.

Well, I did have inside information that helped me figure it out. Funny to see how fast they turned on each other though.

[Mr Bubbles]

For the record: your theory is dead on the money.

Well, I did have inside information that helped me figure it out. Funny to see how fast they turned on each other though.

Day one for us killed it. One person basically took the hope out of our group. I tried to entertain myself as much as I could, but with the Lancasters always in control it just wasn't the same.

[Semaj]

 Steisser 
 


Gotta stay true to form...

I have a few dozen ideas what went wrong with this game.... It probably had as much to do with no shows as anything els.e But once we get down to here, almost nothing really needs ot be said on these forums. Everything is decided ahead of time and this is more of a mere formality.

i dunno what the hell you are talking about with the white rose...

changes I would make:

1) Even teams, first vote requires 1 more than your current total votes can muster.
2) Ways for a team thats behind to catch up. (protection and nightly assassins are nice, but the fact the fear of getting caught and almost always getting caught didn't bode well, it was easier for em not to use it and protect themselves)
3) The fact no one except the bastards could PM each other. We all pretty much knew what each other was thinking and the bastards were the only ones with any idea what the other guys were thinking.
4) Killing off an entire side is the only way to end a game. Maybe allowing people to also vote for someone as king after a certain point might be ideal. If a seriously high % is reached that person is named king and then gets ot name his 2 other winners. He's king, he gets to choose.

I could think a few others but this should be a decent start

[Semaj]

For the record: your theory is dead on the money.

Well, I did have inside information that helped me figure it out. Funny to see how fast they turned on each other though.

Day one for us killed it. One person basically took the hope out of our group. I tried to entertain myself as much as I could, but with the Lancasters always in control it just wasn't the same.

If everyone had voted they way they should have, someone on the other side should have died. Someone didnt do thier job on our side and I'd kill and I will kill, to find out who it was

We were supposed to jump all over each other, it was the "Plan"

[stessier]

Maybe allowing people to also vote for someone as king after a certain point might be ideal.

That's an interesting thought. What if there were two votes going on? One would be for the lynch and the other would be for King. Whichever vote majority was reached would lock in the selection (so early on, lynches would prevail, but maybe later a King vote could end the game).

i dunno what the hell you are talking about with the white rose...

The flower for the House of York was a white rose. The flower for the House of Lancaster was a Red Rose (which is what my avatar is). When the war was finally settled, the new house flower was a White Rose inside the Red (or something like that).

Geesh, Yorkies don't know history.

[triggercut]

For the record: your theory is dead on the money.

Well, I did have inside information that helped me figure it out. Funny to see how fast they turned on each other though.

Day one for us killed it. One person basically took the hope out of our group. I tried to entertain myself as much as I could, but with the Lancasters always in control it just wasn't the same.

If everyone had voted they way they should have, someone on the other side should have died. Someone didnt do thier job on our side and I'd kill and I will kill, to find out who it was

We were supposed to jump all over each other, it was the "Plan"

You all did your jobs just fine. Something else happened.

Here's a hint: Scoop had already placed his Church vote, making his public vote just a cosmetic "cover". He voted for you, I assume at random. That set in motion a chain of events that the Lancasters figured out that resulted in the York Day 1 plan not carrying out the way it should've.

[Scoop20906]

 Remus West 
 
The only way to try harder is to try again.

[Isgrimnur]

[Mr Bubbles]

So scoop is the double crosser?

[stessier]

If everyone had voted they way they should have, someone on the other side should have died. Someone didnt do thier job on our side and I'd kill and I will kill, to find out who it was

We were supposed to jump all over each other, it was the "Plan"

Ah, but you miscalculated oh great ones (or forgot the rules).

Here is what I posted in our house forum (by the way, can we open these up for general reading?):

I'm feeding my daughter (2 years olds and pasta are an adventure!), so the short answer is that Semaj could have met T-1 condition by Step 8 in your first scenario if the Lancaster Hammer undervoted for him and was in the set I mentioned on the short list to die tonight (because someone in there is the Hammer).

To me this makes the most sense. There is no motive at all for any York to betray on the first day. In my scheme, everyone played it straight, the Lancasters just got there faster.

And here is how the vote went down:

--x Scoop20906 acc Semaj(1)
Grundbegriff acc Semaj(2)
stessier acc Semaj(3)
Remus West acc Semaj(4)
--x Semaj acc Scoop20906(1)
Austin acc Remus West(1)
Kelric acc Semaj(5)
Isgrimnur acc Semaj(6)
--x RevHempus71 acc SeanMoKtSP(1)
Mr Bubbles acc Grundbegriff(1)
--w Semaj wd Scoop20906(1)
Semaj acc Grundbegriff(2)
--w RevHempus71 wd SeanMoKtSP(1)
RevHempus71 acc Grundbegriff(3)
Chaosraven acc Grundbegriff(4)
--w Scoop20906 wd Semaj(5)
SeanMoKtSP acc Semaj(6)

Let's say all the Yorks voted for Grund with their squires if not directly, then this is what the Yorks think should have happened:

Scoop acc Grund(1)
Grund acc Semaj(1)
stessier acc Semaj(2)
Remus acc Semaj(3)
Semaj acc Grund(2+3)
Austin acc Grund(4)
Kelric acc Semaj(4)
Isgrimnur acc Semaj(5)
Rev acc grund(5)
Mr Bubbles acc Grund(6)
Chaos acc Grund(7) <--- Grund should be dead, but alas! There must be a traitor in our midst!!
Sean acc Semaj(6) <---- Semaj dies

This is what actually happened:
Scoop acc Grund(1)
Grund acc Semaj(1)
stessier acc Semaj(2+3)
Remus acc Semaj(4)
Semaj acc Grund(2+3)
Austin acc Grund(4)
Kelric acc Semaj(5)
Isgrimnur acc Semaj(6) <--- Semaj loses Church vote because he self protected and our Hammer had already voted
---------
Rev acc grund(4)
Mr Bubbles acc Grund(5)
Chaos acc Grund(6)
Sean acc Semaj(7) <---- Semaj dies

So really, Semaj, you have no one to blame but yourself. Had you not self protected, your plan would have worked.

[Austin]

So scoop is the double crosser?

I figured as much. He has tendencies.

[Scoop20906]

Here's a hint: Scoop had already placed his Church vote, making his public vote just a cosmetic "cover". He voted for you, I assume at random. That set in motion a chain of events that the Lancasters figured out that resulted in the York Day 1 plan not carrying out the way it should've.

I am thinking in hindsight that my early vote for Semaj pushed the voting issue too quickly but I wanted to confuse them. It didn't work. I think now I should have just not voted my comestic vote.

No more hints please. Just explain the grisly details.

[Mr Bubbles]

So scoop is the double crosser?

I figured as much. He has tendencies.

And we all gave you a hard time

[Chaosraven]

Mr Bubbles, you failed me.

[Grundbegriff]

So scoop is the double crosser?

I figured as much. He has tendencies.

And we all gave you a hard time

That's just the point. There was no double-crosser in York on the first day.

[Mr Bubbles]

So scoop is the double crosser?

I figured as much. He has tendencies.

And we all gave you a hard time

That's just the point. There was no double-crosser in York on the first day.

Indeed. I would apologize to Austin, but its not in my nature.

[Scoop20906]

I wasn't the doublecrosser.

It seems when Semaj played his protection, he also pulled his double vote.

Am I right in assuming that if Semaj had kept his double vote on then we would have killed Grund?

[Mr Bubbles]

Mr Bubbles, you failed me.

How exactly did I failed you my pigmentally challenged brother?

[Austin]

I wasn't the doublecrosser.

It seems when Semaj played his protection, he also pulled his double vote.

Am I right in assuming that if Semaj had kept his double vote on then we would have killed Grund?

I still blame you.

[Mr Bubbles]

I wasn't the doublecrosser.

It seems when Semaj played his protection, he also pulled his double vote.

Am I right in assuming that if Semaj had kept his double vote on then we would have killed Grund?

Here's a hint: Scoop had already placed his Church vote, making his public vote just a cosmetic "cover". He voted for you, I assume at random.

You failed us. I am so disappointed that I just can't talk. I'm speechless.

[stessier]

I wasn't the doublecrosser.

It seems when Semaj played his protection, he also pulled his double vote.

Am I right in assuming that if Semaj had kept his double vote on then we would have killed Grund?

He didn't "pull" the double vote. By the Lancaster's getting him to N-1 while he had on his protection, he lost his double vote.

And yes, had he not protected, Grund would have died.

[Scoop20906]

Well, if nothing else came of this game, that moment where we all assumed one of us double crossed the family was pretty neat.

Austin, sorry for accusing you but I thought you were fishy with your posts.

It interesting to see how quickly we turned on each other. But, I agree with Austin, I do have tendencies.

[stessier]

Here's a hint: Scoop had already placed his Church vote, making his public vote just a cosmetic "cover". He voted for you, I assume at random.

You failed us. I am so disappointed that I just can't talk. I'm speechless.

That's true and I guess even funnier. Had Scoop chosen anyone other than the York Hammer as his initial vote, the plan also would have worked. So it was really a joint effort there.

Well done Yorks!!

[Scoop20906]

I wasn't the doublecrosser.

It seems when Semaj played his protection, he also pulled his double vote.

Am I right in assuming that if Semaj had kept his double vote on then we would have killed Grund?

He didn't "pull" the double vote. By the Lancaster's getting him to N-1 while he had on his protection, he lost his double vote.

And yes, had he not protected, Grund would have died.

SEMAJ!!!!!! YOU BLEW IT!!!

[Mr Bubbles]

I wasn't the doublecrosser.

It seems when Semaj played his protection, he also pulled his double vote.

Am I right in assuming that if Semaj had kept his double vote on then we would have killed Grund?

He didn't "pull" the double vote. By the Lancaster's getting him to N-1 while he had on his protection, he lost his double vote.

And yes, had he not protected, Grund would have died.

SEMAJ!!!!!! YOU BLEW IT!!!

I'll make it easy on both of you. You both blew it. You blew it in large nasty chunks.

I'm going home.

[Scoop20906]

Yeah, we both blew it. How funny.

[stessier]

So do I have this right for posterity?

The Lancasters
Remus West - The Protector
Isgrimnur - The Wise
Grundbegriff - The Learned
stessier - The Hammer
mipe - The Ambitious
Kelric - The Betrayer
Sean - The Bastard

The Yorks
Chaosraven - The Protector
Austin - The Wise
Scoop - The Learned
Semaj - The Hammer
RevHempus - The Ambitious
Mr Bubbles - The Betrayer

[Isgrimnur]

You've got the Lancasters right.

[Kelric]

I tried to plot as much as possible as the Betrayer, but being the last in line (since the Bastard can leap frog to the front) makes it pretty tough to get to the end.

[triggercut]

Yep, those are correct, stess.

And the way the day 1 vote came down was pretty much correctly described here. All the Yorks either put a real or squire vote on Grund, and Semaj had his church vote on Grund. That day it was 7 votes to execute. There were 4 Real votes on Semaj, and 1 fake vote, from Scoop. At that point to Semaj's mind, he was at five votes and needed to invoke protection.

Good thing too, because one of the four "real" votes on him was stessier, who also put his Church vote on Semaj. Semaj was actually at 5 votes when he invoked protection.

Isgrimnur pushed him to six votes, and protection kicked in. Semaj's Church vote on Grund disappeared.

At this point I suppose you could say that the Lancs got there faster without giving the Yorks a chance, but 2 Yorks had yet to register a vote despite posting in this thread (Bubbles and Semaj, who didn't place his regular vote until later on Grund) and another York (Rev) voted for Sean initially.

[triggercut]

I tried to plot as much as possible as the Betrayer, but being the last in line (since the Bastard can leap frog to the front) makes it pretty tough to get to the end.

In your position, I'd have followed the Yorks with my Squire vote on Day 1, and then have gone all in with them on Day 2 in public voting.

[stessier]

So how did Remus get to the requirement yesterday?

Was it my vote that did it? There had to have been other squire votes floating around to make it work...

Edit: I didn't use my squire vote, I put my Church vote on Remus when he voted for me. My thinking was that if it came down to me or him, it was going to be him (as I would have switched my visible vote if things got tight), but he was still far enough away where it shouldn't have been the kill vote.

[triggercut]

So how did Remus get to the requirement yesterday?

Was it my vote that did it? There had to have been other squire votes floating around to make it work...

Edit: I didn't use my squire vote, I put my Church vote on Remus when he voted for me. My thinking was that if it came down to me or him, it was going to be him (as I would have switched my visible vote if things got tight), but he was still far enough away where it shouldn't have been the kill vote.

The other reason this game probably had to draw: I missed Semaj changing his vote to stessier, which I noticed on Saturday morning.

There were other rules problems that I had. Remus sent in a protect order one night on someone, and I didn't immediately lock it in with a response. I then sent Isgrimnur his scan result and was writing up Rev's assassination of Remus when Remus sent in a note that he'd changed his mind, and wanted to self protect. I flipped a coin on that decision, but honestly both sides could claim that whatever decision was made was made unfairly.

[Semaj]

Yep, those are correct, stess.

And the way the day 1 vote came down was pretty much correctly described here. All the Yorks either put a real or squire vote on Grund, and Semaj had his church vote on Grund. That day it was 7 votes to execute. There were 4 Real votes on Semaj, and 1 fake vote, from Scoop. At that point to Semaj's mind, he was at five votes and needed to invoke protection.

Good thing too, because one of the four "real" votes on him was stessier, who also put his Church vote on Semaj. Semaj was actually at 5 votes when he invoked protection.

Isgrimnur pushed him to six votes, and protection kicked in. Semaj's Church vote on Grund disappeared.

At this point I suppose you could say that the Lancs got there faster without giving the Yorks a chance, but 2 Yorks had yet to register a vote despite posting in this thread (Bubbles and Semaj, who didn't place his regular vote until later on Grund) and another York (Rev) voted for Sean initially.

I asked when I needed to do it, you said it had already kicked in. I wanted to save it until I was headed to the gallows. I said to you I would watch the vote count closely and when I got real close then worry about it. But I can see what happened... There was no clear definition of when I had to use the power by. But I had both votes on Grund before the power kicked in...

[stessier]

The other reason this game probably had to draw: I missed Semaj changing his vote to stessier, which I noticed on Saturday morning.

Ahh, that would explain it. Thanks!