(Almost) Simple WW Game - Game Over

[Semaj]

This is the day I post about 50 times and die a horrible death because I dont know how to not stir up the pot or stay silent... My prediction in advance...

I just got on I.E. I just woke up... I got about 4-5 pages of crap to read. Last time I tried to post the boards went down, so I'm a bit hesitant to post again

But to me we have 2 thought processes to go by:

1) No wolf pointed to another wolf

2) A wolf pointed to another wolf.

I'll expand more after I vote for someone... after reading a few pages...

[Semaj]

Here's the sequence and timing in which folks were cleared as non-She-wolfy:


Unagi clears Bubbles (2009 Apr 30, Thu 03:42 pm)
Scoop clears Lassr (2009 Apr 30, Thu 05:19 pm)
Lassr clears Bubbles (2009 Apr 30, Thu 05:30 pm)
Grundbegriff clears Scoop (2009 Apr 30, Thu 11:48 pm)
Chaosraven clears Newcastle (2009 May 01, Fri 09:55 am)
Semaj clears Lassr (2009 May 01, Fri 12:49 pm)

Using this for theo-rising

I deleted the people pointing to remus... I dont hate any of you, but it is useless for this discussion... Man I have been watching way too much house.

We have a daisy chain: Grund-scoop-lassr-Bubbles

Scoop died last night leading me to say Lassr is indeed good... In a logical and decided manner.
As such, Lassr pointing to Bubbles should clear bubbles to a lesser extent.

I have a hard time clearing newcastle just yet for one reason, if the he-wolf pointed to the shewolf, this would be it and it might win the game if we assume they are good guys.

More to follow...

[Grundbegriff]

Scoop died last night leading me to say Lassr is indeed good... In a logical and decided manner.
As such, Lassr pointing to Bubbles should clear bubbles to a lesser extent.

Just two questions:
(1) Is it possible for someone who was cleared of She-Wolfishness to be a He-Wolf?
(2) What do "is indeed good" and "clear... to a lesser extent" mean in view of your answer to (1)?

[Unagi]

Scoop died last night leading me to say Lassr is indeed good...

Could you explain what you mean by this.

How does Scoop's death make you say Lassr is indeed good.

I'm totally perplexed by this Semaj.

The only thing that Scoop's death does is tell us that Lassr's name was indeed on the list of (He-wolves and Villagers).... but, of course you already knew that was the case... So, I don't see how Scoop's death did anything to Scoop's claim.

[Grundbegriff]

Pondering....

[Semaj]

I do enjoy how quickly the game is going, fast voting while normally bad means people who die wont spend 3 years waiting for the next game to be played, as such dying isnt as painful as it can be in the giant complex games. No this has nothing to do with me helping the game as much as me saying my enjoyment levels have risen.

Back to an earlier point:
If a wolf didnt point to the other:
Our list of people to kill is -
Chaosraven
Grundbegriff
Semaj
Unagi

If the wolves did point to the other:
Our list of people to kill is:
Chaosraven and Newcastle.

As such, unfortunately killing Chaosraven gives the town the best chance of a wolf. And I say unfortunately because it smells of a frame job.

[Lassr]

I know semaj is correct since I am an innocent villager but I'm am interested in how he came up with that fact since scoop's death does not clear me of being the he-wolf.

[Semaj]

Scoop died last night leading me to say Lassr is indeed good...

Could you explain what you mean by this.

How does Scoop's death make you say Lassr is indeed good.

I'm totally perplexed by this Semaj.

The only thing that Scoop's death does is tell us that Lassr's name was indeed on the list of (He-wolves and Villagers).... but, of course you already knew that was the case... So, I don't see how Scoop's death did anything to Scoop's claim.

Ok... unless the wolves are trying to play with just 1 wolf and planned this out to a huge degree without talking... The night kill was an innocent, who pointed to someone who was not the ... fuck... shewolf... And as I write this it dawns on me we could have people who pointed to the he-wolf.

*bangs head against wall*

Does this mean no one is safe?

gahh I totally was doing math based on no one pointing to a wolf.

This means rather than do a numbers game, we need to just vote for people we think are evil. Which kills my current line of thinking.

[Grundbegriff]

And as I write this it dawns on me we could have people who pointed to the he-wolf.

*bangs head against wall*

Does this mean no one is safe?

gahh I totally was doing math based on no one pointing to a wolf.

This means rather than do a numbers game, we need to just vote for people we think are evil. Which kills my current line of thinking.

That's the drum Unagi has been beating. Yes, "cleared" means "possibly still a wolf, but not that wolf"-- which is fairly meaningless, given that we never find out which wolf we've killed.

[Semaj]

I know semaj is correct since I am an innocent villager but I'm am interested in how he came up with that fact since scoop's death does not clear me of being the he-wolf.

It's a well known fact I dont read rules, it gets in the way of my reads of people. So I glanced slightly at them in the begining. I spend more time fidgeting over who is doing what for why and less time figuring out who is evil for why. I assumed whomever we pointed to wasn't a wolf... in any form.

As such me pointing to you (in theory, not so much with the understanding of the rules) made you a not-wolf and with scoop being proven an innocent, pointing to you proved you as a not wolf... as opposed to not she-wolf, which is the case.

And by to a lesser extent (Grund asked) If we were going by my o so wrong theory, the daisy chain proves everyone else in the line after the one part is cleared.

[Semaj]

And as I write this it dawns on me we could have people who pointed to the he-wolf.

*bangs head against wall*

Does this mean no one is safe?

gahh I totally was doing math based on no one pointing to a wolf.

This means rather than do a numbers game, we need to just vote for people we think are evil. Which kills my current line of thinking.

That's the drum Unagi has been beating. Yes, "cleared" means "possibly still a wolf, but not that wolf"-- which is fairly meaningless, given that we never find out which wolf we've killed.

Yeah, which begs the question, why were people so hung up on it? It basically what I felt like I was reading (Apparently not well enough). Focusing on who is evil seems a much better pursuit than trying to clear people of being one of the wolves, while they still could be the other.

[Grundbegriff]

Yeah, which begs the question

or rather, it raises the question

why were people so hung up on it?

The "clearance" is fairly meaningless, but it's not entirely meaningless. At most, it allows us to say things such as

If the He-Wolf did not "clear" the She-Wolf, then the She-Wolf is a member of {Chaosraven, Grundbegriff, Semaj, theohall, Unagi}
and
If the He-Wolf did "clear" the She-Wolf, then the She-Wolf is not a member of {Chaosraven, Grundbegriff, Semaj, theohall, Unagi}

The trouble, of course, is that our understanding of what the He-Wolf might've done is theoretical and hunchy. Figuring out the optimal strategy for the He-Wolf is one thing; figuring out who would've followed or deviated from the optimal strategy is another.

[Unagi]

Scoop died last night leading me to say Lassr is indeed good...

Could you explain what you mean by this.

How does Scoop's death make you say Lassr is indeed good.

I'm totally perplexed by this Semaj.

The only thing that Scoop's death does is tell us that Lassr's name was indeed on the list of (He-wolves and Villagers).... but, of course you already knew that was the case... So, I don't see how Scoop's death did anything to Scoop's claim.

Ok... unless the wolves are trying to play with just 1 wolf and planned this out to a huge degree without talking... The night kill was an innocent, who pointed to someone who was not the ... fuck... shewolf... And as I write this it dawns on me we could have people who pointed to the he-wolf.

*bangs head against wall*

Does this mean no one is safe?

gahh I totally was doing math based on no one pointing to a wolf.

This means rather than do a numbers game, we need to just vote for people we think are evil. Which kills my current line of thinking.

Dude.

STILL , this makes no sense....

Scoop claimed Lassr and so did You.

That you should learn anything from Scoop's death implies you didn't even trust your own claim.


Can you help me make sense of this?

[Lassr]

Scoop died last night leading me to say Lassr is indeed good...

Could you explain what you mean by this.

How does Scoop's death make you say Lassr is indeed good.

I'm totally perplexed by this Semaj.

The only thing that Scoop's death does is tell us that Lassr's name was indeed on the list of (He-wolves and Villagers).... but, of course you already knew that was the case... So, I don't see how Scoop's death did anything to Scoop's claim.

Ok... unless the wolves are trying to play with just 1 wolf and planned this out to a huge degree without talking... The night kill was an innocent, who pointed to someone who was not the ... fuck... shewolf... And as I write this it dawns on me we could have people who pointed to the he-wolf.

*bangs head against wall*

Does this mean no one is safe?

gahh I totally was doing math based on no one pointing to a wolf.

This means rather than do a numbers game, we need to just vote for people we think are evil. Which kills my current line of thinking.

Dude.

STILL , this makes no sense....

Scoop claimed Lassr and so did You.

That you should learn anything from Scoop's death implies you didn't even trust your own claim.


Can you help me make sense of this?

Thank you, I was about to ask the same thing when I went back and saw he was the 2nd person to clear me as the she-wolf. But using his interpretation of the rule then he would have been the second person to clear me of being a wolf in general. Something smells here.

[Lassr]

This is the day I post about 50 times and die a horrible death because I dont know how to not stir up the pot or stay silent... My prediction in advance...

may have gotten something right.

[Chaosraven]

(1) Is it possible for someone who was cleared of She-Wolfishness to be a He-Wolf?

And as I write this it dawns on me we could have people who pointed to the he-wolf.

...and people wonder why I point out and reiterate "the obvious"

[Semaj]

Scoop died last night leading me to say Lassr is indeed good...

Could you explain what you mean by this.

How does Scoop's death make you say Lassr is indeed good.

I'm totally perplexed by this Semaj.

The only thing that Scoop's death does is tell us that Lassr's name was indeed on the list of (He-wolves and Villagers).... but, of course you already knew that was the case... So, I don't see how Scoop's death did anything to Scoop's claim.

Ok... unless the wolves are trying to play with just 1 wolf and planned this out to a huge degree without talking... The night kill was an innocent, who pointed to someone who was not the ... fuck... shewolf... And as I write this it dawns on me we could have people who pointed to the he-wolf.

*bangs head against wall*

Does this mean no one is safe?

gahh I totally was doing math based on no one pointing to a wolf.

This means rather than do a numbers game, we need to just vote for people we think are evil. Which kills my current line of thinking.

Dude.

STILL , this makes no sense....

Scoop claimed Lassr and so did You.

That you should learn anything from Scoop's death implies you didn't even trust your own claim.


Can you help me make sense of this?

Thank you, I was about to ask the same thing when I went back and saw he was the 2nd person to clear me as the she-wolf. But using his interpretation of the rule then he would have been the second person to clear me of being a wolf in general. Something smells here.

Just because I saw him as trusted doesnt mean he was a proven trusted to anyone else. I meant it was as solid as the evidence can get for clearing someone. I was looking to clear people not do and if buts or whys.

[Grundbegriff]

(1) Is it possible for someone who was cleared of She-Wolfishness to be a He-Wolf?

And as I write this it dawns on me we could have people who pointed to the he-wolf.

...and people wonder why I point out and reiterate "the obvious"

I hope you understand that I wasn't seeking knowledge with that question, but was asking it rhetorically for Semaj's benefit since he didn't seem to get it.

[Grundbegriff]

Dude.

STILL , this makes no sense....

Scoop claimed Lassr and so did You.

That you should learn anything from Scoop's death implies you didn't even trust your own claim.


Can you help me make sense of this?

Thank you, I was about to ask the same thing when I went back and saw he was the 2nd person to clear me as the she-wolf. But using his interpretation of the rule then he would have been the second person to clear me of being a wolf in general. Something smells here.

Just because I saw him as trusted doesnt mean he was a proven trusted to anyone else. I meant it was as solid as the evidence can get for clearing someone. I was looking to clear people not do and if buts or whys.

But if you had been told that Scoop was 'trusted', what difference would it make that someone else received the same info? Nothing that happens to anyone else can possibly change the reliability of what you've been told.

[Semaj]

to me, none.

To everyone else, loads.

[Unagi]

Scoop died last night leading me to say Lassr is indeed good... In a logical and decided manner.
As such, Lassr pointing to Bubbles should clear bubbles to a lesser extent.

Let's take a look at what you said at the start of this.


The choice of words is what I am looking at here.

"Scoop died, leading me to say Lassr is indeed good...."

This very much, IMO, implies that you framed this statement under the context that you wanted it to be known that it was not clear to you before - but is now.

Before: we didn't know.
Now: Lassr is indeed good...

Assume, Semaj really did think that these 'claims' were totally clearing.

Just the fact that 2 people cleared 1 other person is enough to actually clear that person.

Think about it.
For the claims to be dishonest, they would need to be told by a wolf (no villager would lie)...
For two identical claims to be dishonest, each lie would have been told by a wolf, making their "claim" - ironically honest (for lack of a third wolf to be the beneficiary of the lie).

So, for a player in Semaj's frame of mind to be looking at his claim, and thinking "Yeah, but how can I get everyone else to understand that Lassr is NOT a wolf", the fact that Scoop already claimed it too - should have been when Semaj came forward and said that was proof positive that Lassr really isn't a wolf.

And then again, keep in mind, Semaj claims that he felt (at the time) these claims totally cleared a player of being any wolf.

When Semaj says:
"As such, Lassr pointing to Bubbles should clear bubbles to a lesser extent."
What scenario would lead to Bubbles not being totally cleared when both Unagi and Lassr cleared him... same as above - Once 2 players claimed someone, Semaj should have declared that person totally cleared.

I don't know that I doubt you really did think that... It's actually not all that relevant to you being a wolf or not Semaj.

What stands out to me is this missing math that you didn't even remotely attempt to do while under that belief.

If I was under the belief that the name I got was simply a villager's name, the second I saw Lassr claim "Mr Bubbles", I would have immediately pointed out that it must be true then, because if Lassr and I were both lying, then we are done looking for wolves - and Mr. Bubbles is cleared by that.

It would have been even more obvious to me, if I was the second in line to claim it...

You weren't looking for wolves.

 Semaj 
 

[Semaj]

you do realise, and I know this is going to be o so fun....that i didnt post anything on anyone monday, right? Nothing, no accusations, no nothing. I didnt question the rules, I didnt do anything but what I assumed was help clear lassr when I woke up friday. I mentioned how silly it was to assume someone is evil because they wake up later than everyone else. Then I avoided the weekend, because no one usually posts and I end up posting 45 things and everyone comes back calling me the antichrist. I come back let you know after I wake up I'll read and comment and come back to the voting closed. The next day started and here we are, nitpicking my every word in the hopes of finding a wolf. Which has worked o so well in the past.

So this is my "first day".

Lets see here... Damned if I argue every point, damned if I dont. Ah well.. time to go down in flames and give the bad guys a pass on today.

Unagi:
normally I'd point out thats how I always talk, period, but it's just plain silly.

OK so when I make grandiose claims like Lassr is good, you would all go: how do you know? You must be evil!

When I go: Look here is proof! It means it shouldnt be an arguable point. It's not me whom you can all think am not relevant or good. I assumed when someone had 2 people pointing at them they should be in the clear, not like I said this yesterday obviously, but it's not like I had much a chance. But it felt that with his death there was solid proof he was good and thus who he pointed at was good. I could have sworn I was just summarizing the discussion made yesterday. The difference was I assumed (Wrongly, which makes it funny you guys are all hung up on me not being positive) it cleared people.

Perhaps I should use possibilities (Essentially, roughly, should be, lesser extent, etc.) less and instead never use a word that can be misread or misquoted for someone elses benefit. But I thought the point of this game was to go quickly and play a game inside 3 months. Not get people so scared to talk nothing gets done. As such, try to read what you want in the way I type, but you are wrong.

As for that whole not looking for wolves concept, I believe if you can cut non wolves out of the equation, the wolf pile gets smaller to hide in and easier to dig through. At what point have I said "Lets not get a wolf!"?

Me, I was looking for any advantage i could get in determining who I think is evil and why. Saying something I assumed was common sense was more for my thought process than the belief you all need to be spoonfed information.

At this point you'll find evil in anything someone types if you look hard enough. Me, I got my list of my top 3 wolf suspects and my o so ingenious plan was to poke and prod as the day progressed and see how these lads squirmed.

[Grundbegriff]

This is weird.

Semaj and Unagi are both on the not-confirmed list (i.e., possible She-Wolf if the He-Wolf didn't name Her).
Semaj seemed to place heavy emphasis on the naming process and Unagi seemed to dismiss it.
Semaj is now appealing to improvisation and sloppiness and asking for interpretive flexibility, while Unagi is now appealing to rules and precision and interpretive rigor.

The weird part is that either move could be a lupine tactic-- reasoning toward slack or reasoning toward perfection.

[Grundbegriff]

Me, I was looking for any advantage i could get in determining who I think is evil and why.

Except consulting the rules?

[stessier]

Tuesday Vote Tally

• Unagi acc Semaj (1)

Votes needed = 4

Against Semaj (1): Unagi

[Mr Bubbles]

Me, I was looking for any advantage i could get in determining who I think is evil and why.

Except consulting the rules?

Yeah thats kind of interesting. I haven't had a whole lot of time the last few days to post much because of life, but man.. that whole thought process on why I am less proven. I wouldn't argue I was less proven if it was just my word, but when two people clear me it would be seem strange to think that you could derive any way in which I'm less proven.

I'm hoping to post more later, but honestly right now I'm going to be a little patchy until Tuesday when i have two projects done.

[Unagi]

OK so when I make grandiose claims like Lassr is good, you would all go: how do you know? You must be evil!

Umm... Durr - when we asked "how do you know?"...

Wouldn't you have simply said - "Because that was the name I was told." I think we would all understand the nuance that it was an opinion you held 'from your point of view'... I mean, we'd all have a simular position.

It makes no sense.

[Lassr]

I have this feeling that we are going in the wrong direction but semaj's error is just hard to ignore. As a wolf you may not pay as much attention to the rules of the villagers and that's kind of what semaj's error feels like.

But I have this gut feeling that wolves may be pouncing on this error to get another innocent killed. I would not be shocked if the wolves were Unagi and Grund right now but it's hard to vote that way because there's just nothing out there to point that way (except for maybe Grund because of the Scoop kill last night which I mentioned earlier). We needed another night of not she-wolf visions.

[Unagi]

I have simular concerns (big surprise, you are on my list of 'sneak attacks'), but I just can't see how someone who thought these names were absolute in the nature of the clearling - didn't really play the game as if that helped him find wolves.

[Mr Bubbles]

I have a feeling that wolf is pointing out that a wolf may pounce on an error made on Semaj's behalf.

[Grundbegriff]

My concern in dealing with Semaj's apparent tell (poke the confirmed?) is that we'll lose sight of other oddities-- most notably Newcastle's preoccupation with He-Wolf signaling strategies. That's the most creepy-seeming thing so far, hunchwise, in my book, and it has implications.

What if Semaj is just being sloppy and asystematic? He dies so early in these games that it's hard to get a read on what he'd be like if allowed to live. (Of course, if this is what he'd be like, then it's no wonder he's a perennial favorite for early execution. ) To a very systematic player, a very non-systematic player's sloppiness might seem like a chain of inexcusable blunders; to a loose player, tight reasoning might look like forceful manipulation.

The whole "clearance is a good|evil binary absolute, but clearance is also incremental and cumulative" confusion may or may not be a question of style. On the other hand, not knowing the rules, and boasting of always ignoring the rules, and yet also claiming that it was all about some heroic effort to discern the slayers seems like classic lupine hemming and hawing (and howling). For that reason, if for none other, I'm inclined to deal with this now rather than someday/never.

 Semaj 
 

[Grundbegriff]

Where the howl is Chaosravenous?

[Newcastle]

 grund 
 



This is wolvy grund. This is grund trying to stay out of the limelight, this is nto grund trying to drive hte conversation or anything, this is grund being sneaky.

What would an innocent grund do? He wuoldn't so deflty try to insunuate on people (ie see his post re: unagi & semaj)> He is not tryin to create clarity but sow confusion.

Grund is a supine lupine treat, who needs to be tonights BBQ via the lynch.

I seriously thought of him being it yesterday. This is just not innocent grund we are seeing.

Couple of thoughts also - why woudl the she wolf clear out the knowns? Or halfknowns for that matter? What did Scoops death help them with? I think the basic of it is that it helps create confusion for us. Because the running theory was that the pool that Scoop belonged to was semi proven.

The other thing I as thinking was that the Wolves can play very aggressively and in a different matter. They don't have to worry bout being called out by a seer. That's something to consider. We have no safety check, we only have our reasonign to go off of.

Anywoo

Impressions on others.
Unagi - his aggression at pinning people down strikes me as very odd.
Lassr - lack of remorse when we took out theohall. Simply strikes me as uhm, lupine
CR- Kind of stayin in the backdrop i am thinking
Mr. BUbbles - Claims busy, been quiet for the last day or so
Semaj - not sure what to make of it.

[Grundbegriff]

 grund 
 

This is wolvy grund. This is grund trying to stay out of the limelight

By posting repeatedly?

this is nto grund trying to drive hte conversation or anything, this is grund being sneaky.

You wouldn't be reacting to my casting suspicion on you for your weird commentaries, would you?

[Lassr]

Where's the Grund misdirections and traps? That's bugging me also.

But I still cannot ignore semaj and that's the way I'm leaning this round.

[stessier]

Tuesday Vote Tally

• Unagi acc Semaj (1)
• Grund acc Semaj (2)
• Newcastle acc Grund (1)

Votes needed = 4

Against Semaj (2): Unagi, Grund
Against Grund (1): Newcastle

[Newcastle]

not but it would be rather your pointing the fingers at everyone, and not really locking on, or analyzing. This is you tryin to survive, not tryin to rock the boat. This is not you giving it all for the village.

And what is odd about theorizing how the wolves are communicating? They have to somehow right? Wouldn't you think they would at least try? Wouldn't you? Wouldn't you give a wink, a nod, an extra parsimonous kudos, a veiled shut up your drawing too much attention post?

I dont find it odd giving out ones thoughts. Am sorry you feel that way. If you come up wolvy grund, am gonna scour your posts to find it because I think that's the real reason you are tryin to shut down this line of thinking, because in effect you are by mocking my efforts and calling em loopy therefore tryin to marginalize em.

You sir are a wolf.

[Grundbegriff]

not but it would be rather your pointing the fingers at everyone, and not really locking on, or analyzing.

You claim I've pointed the finger at everyone? When and where did this take place?

As for analysis, let's do some:

This is wolvy grund. This is grund trying to stay out of the limelight....
The other thing I as thinking was that the Wolves can play very aggressively and in a different matter. They don't have to worry bout being called out by a seer. That's something to consider.

So let me see whether I follow.... Wolves are sneaky, staying out of the limelight, but wolves are aggressive and worry-free, since there's no Seer?

this is nto grund trying to drive hte conversation or anything, this is grund being sneaky.

I believe I'm second on the dogpile here, having insisted that we deal with this today. So I'd say this is Newcastle dodging the question at hand: whether to take down Semaj.

He is not tryin to create clarity but sow confusion.

By "staying out of the limelight" and "not driving the conversation"?

What did Scoops death help them with? I think the basic of it is that it helps create confusion for us. Because the running theory was that the pool that Scoop belonged to was semi proven.

What does "semi proven" mean here? And how many times must we go over this ground?
Is it possible for a "semi proven" player to be a wolf?
Yes [ ] No [ ] (check one). If you answer correctly, then you'll also realize that "not She-Wolf" != "trusted".

And what is odd about theorizing how the wolves are communicating? They have to somehow right? Wouldn't you think they would at least try? Wouldn't you? Wouldn't you give a wink, a nod, an extra parsimonous kudos, a veiled shut up your drawing too much attention post?

It's all about emphasis. Undue emphasis.

in effect you are by mocking my efforts and calling em loopy therefore tryin to marginalize em. You sir are a wolf.

My goal isn't to mock your efforts, but to raise the issue of whether repeatedly screaming "How Would A Wolf Signal A Wolf?!" is itself a way of signaling a wolf....

I wouldn't expect a wolf to be so obvious, but then we're talking about you.

...





OK, I am possibly mocking your efforts-- if you're a Wolf!

[Semaj]

 grund 
 

This is wolvy grund. This is grund trying to stay out of the limelight, this is nto grund trying to drive hte conversation or anything, this is grund being sneaky.

Actually he's one of my top 3, for that exact reason. I think he's the hewolf and trying to signal/already has signaled the shewolf.

Because by now I'd see some 3 part post where he analyses everyone in the game. When he doesnt do that, he reeks of evil to me...

 grund 
 


Normally I'd think something off with Unagi's aggression, but in recent games (Last half a year at least) he's become way more aggressive. I am not clearing him (because thats evil, and impossible to do) but he seems more of normal I dont give a shit Unagi than Unagi who has something to lose.

[Unagi]

Normally I'd think something off with Unagi's aggression, but in recent games (Last half a year at least) he's become way more aggressive.

Frankly, I'm always accused of being aggressive... and chatty, and too quiet, and dumb, and idiotic, and mistaken.

But I would like to point out that you are totally full of it, as you'd be hard pressed to even produce a game I was in - in the last 6 months.