(Almost) Simple WW Game - Game Over

[Grundbegriff]

See? I told you he'd keep that torch burning!

Here's the thing you're not taking into account, Unagi. It's possible for a player to be both oblivious to the the rules and illogical. What's more, it's possible for him to be both of these things and innocent.

Semaj's virtual self-outing as a werewolf without even bothering to try to live and maintain cover could've been disastrous for our team, as stessier's prediction suggested. However, your prosecutorial zeal-- going all Torquemada on the apparent wolves-- made up for that deficit by intensifying my own cover as I followed in the wake of your crusade. Meanwhile, the fact that you eliminated any doubt about your allegiance sealed your fate as a night victim.

So yes-- Semaj should reconsider his methods. But you would be even more potent if you fine-tuned your own.

The perfect He-Wolf, btw, would've played like Unagi for the first third of the game, and then like Semaj for the middle third. Causing as much damage to innocents as possible and then making himself a target for his partner to take down would've been ideal. I note this for future reference....

[Grundbegriff]

So, yeah - I said it before, and I'll say it again... Going off that list of names was a red herring and Grund used it to his advantage. There is no real value at all in going off that list.

At least it gave y'all something to argue about on Monday instead of just sitting there staring at each other until someone flinched.

Unagi overplays the meaninglessness of the list. It wasn't meaningless. It's just that its meaning was complex where minds want simple clues. That actually made the list useful for the Bad Guys. Once people locked onto the idea that the She list contained a wolf, finding Semaj there satisfied that itch and bumped the remainder (including me) a notch up the innocence rubric.

The list also introduced the idea of testing for confirmation of non-Sheness, and that had a direct impact on the selection of nightly victims.

So the list was a factor. It just wasn't especially useful in support of wolfhunting.

[Semaj]

ZOMG, we won, yayz.

I do have to say a few things:
1) I completely didnt read the rules, I kinda glanced and apparently forgot or screwed how pointing worked. I did assume pointing meant you couldnt be a wolf... I assumed we had those two guys as trusteds which is why I was confused when scoop died, lol.

You STILL don't get it.

It doesn't matter that you did or didn't read the rules.

If you were good - and you thought the names totally cleared people: The moment you saw that someone else cleared who you cleared - You should have understood, and pointed out to everyone (even in your wrong assumption) that this person was totally cleared.
You then would have also understood how (again - even with your wrong assumption) that Mr Bubbles should be deemed cleared via the Lassr/Unagi claim.

Yeah that downed on me afterwards... For some odd reason I thought one person wasnt enough... I thought two would be ok... But it was one of those moments where it made sense for me to say... Like ok this has to be a given now even if there was somehow doubt before.

You didn't do any of that.

Again, you were not looking for wolves.

Actually I thought I was.

I'm not sure why you aren't reading, understanding, and accepting this.

You seem to feel that a good player (the thing you wanted us to believe you were) would not have leveraged the data of "Not Wolf".

Here's the main point: With just 2 wolves - and a system where everyone is told of 1 Non-Wolf... Anyone Named TWICE is NOT a wolf.

I remembered that, but considering every time I went to check the boards it was down, I forgot the whole logic thing. Reading back through the posts, I ended up skimming some because it got boring people saying what i assumed to be true, certain people were now cleared and good. I couldn't figure out what the rest of the debate was, so I assumed it was fluff.

Since you came from a world where you thought everyone was told of 1 Non-Wolf, you were lynched because you didn't act on that point of view.


You were lynched, not because you didn't read the rules - but because the rules you imagined we were under, you didn't use to find wolves.

Don't you see that?

When did I have time to find wolves? The nonexistant (for me, I posted lassr was the guy I was pointed to, theo got hung while I was wowing it up) first day, or the wasnt even there night? I posted like 1 time the first day, it's all I was able to get in. The second day I posted my thought process on how we could cut the remaining pool down to 3ish choices with a kill, all on wrong game info. To me it made sense, it was essentially my first day of posting. I didn't have a hidden agenda of not trying to find wolves, I tried to go about finding wolves like a player would.

[Grundbegriff]

How/Why did you choose Lassr?

[Semaj]

How/Why did you choose Lassr?

Cuz I picked him to die that night... I was planning ahead

[Lassr]

How/Why did you choose Lassr?

Yes, I thought semaj was the she-wolf and just chose me so he could eat me that night. So why did semaj clear me? Of course, if he completely didn't understand the rules then he probably didn't know he was clearing me of being the she-wolf.

[Lassr]

Gah! I'm punching myself in the nuts. Grund seemed so wolfy but the semaj vote threw me off my game. Should have stuck with my original gut feeling.

[Unagi]

See? I told you he'd keep that torch burning!

Here's the thing you're not taking into account, Unagi. It's possible for a player to be both oblivious to the the rules and illogical. What's more, it's possible for him to be both of these things and innocent.

I most certainly took that into account, but if I accidentally kill the least effective Good-Guy, that's not likely a big deal either.

However, your prosecutorial zeal-- going all Torquemada on the apparent wolves-- made up for that deficit by intensifying my own cover as I followed in the wake of your crusade.

And I saw you in that wake and wanted to test you desprately, why Chaos and Lassr didn't see it too - I don't know....

Meanwhile, the fact that you eliminated any doubt about your allegiance sealed your fate as a night victim.

I was kept alive at first because you thought I bring fun to these games. I was eventually killed because I had established my allignment. Personally, I think we should all play to those goals.

So yes-- Semaj should reconsider his methods. But you would be even more potent if you fine-tuned your own.

I agree - with both statements.

[Grundbegriff]

How/Why did you choose Lassr?

Cuz I picked him to die that night... I was planning ahead

But you had no influence over who would die that night. We weren't in context, and I was the selector.

[Grundbegriff]

Gah! I'm punching myself in the nuts. Grund seemed so wolfy but the semaj vote threw me off my game. Should have stuck with my original gut feeling.

The funny thing here is that my lack of engagement, lack of railroading, etc.-- features that prompted Newcastle to figure I was wolfy-- were completely a side effect of my crazy week (birthdays, anniversary, visiting family, new projects at work, end of the semester, etc.). I would've done my usual thing, if I had had time.

[Unagi]

So, yeah - I said it before, and I'll say it again... Going off that list of names was a red herring and Grund used it to his advantage. There is no real value at all in going off that list.

At least it gave y'all something to argue about on Monday instead of just sitting there staring at each other until someone flinched.

Unagi overplays the meaninglessness of the list. It wasn't meaningless. It's just that its meaning was complex where minds want simple clues. That actually made the list useful for the Bad Guys. Once people locked onto the idea that the She list contained a wolf, finding Semaj there satisfied that itch and bumped the remainder (including me) a notch up the innocence rubric.

The list also introduced the idea of testing for confirmation of non-Sheness, and that had a direct impact on the selection of nightly victims.

So the list was a factor. It just wasn't especially useful in support of wolfhunting.

My point Exactly.


I don't overplay the meaninglessness - I am just countering what I saw everyone else make of that list - that is was meaningfull.

Yes, I am speaking from the angle of "Good fighting Evil'. Clearly the list is not meaningless for the wolves - it's a totaly awesome tool that can be used to manipulate people and form meaningless theories upon and hide lies beneath.

I think we are in agreement on this Grund.

[Grundbegriff]

Meanwhile, the fact that you eliminated any doubt about your allegiance sealed your fate as a night victim.

I was kept alive at first because you thought I bring fun to these games.

I was right!

I was eventually killed because I had established my allignment.

Of course, that could be what he wants us to think.... If Semaj had turned up innocent, you wouldn't have been killed that night.

Personally, I think we should all play to those goals.

Quality of the game should be a factor, yes. That's why I dislike it when players either ignore the rules or drop in sporadically to post comments, disconnected from the logic of the moment, that are apparently intended to give the impression of engagement.

[Grundbegriff]

Going off that list of names was a red herring and Grund used it to his advantage. There is no real value at all in going off that list.

This is the only point of disagreement. I wouldn't say there's no real value; I'd say there's real, negative value!

The list isn't meaningless; it's meaningful in a dangerous way.

[Semaj]

How/Why did you choose Lassr?

Cuz I picked him to die that night... I was planning ahead

But you had no influence over who would die that night. We weren't in context, and I was the selector.

He was my parlee pick to die.... Not I "chose" him to die...

[Mr Bubbles]

Damn... I think I should have kept my mouth shut a bit longer. I suspected Grund a bit more than Chaos, but would be lying if I knew grund was the baddie. Well played Grund. of course should have guess a little more considering that you were alive the whole game.

[Grundbegriff]

Damn... I think I should have kept my mouth shut a bit longer. I suspected Grund a bit more than Chaos, but would be lying if I knew grund was the baddie. Well played Grund. of course should have guess a little more considering that you were alive the whole game.

Yep-- that's a dead giveaway, so to speak.

[Chaosraven]

However, your prosecutorial zeal-- going all Torquemada on the apparent wolves-- made up for that deficit by intensifying my own cover as I followed in the wake of your crusade.

And I saw you in that wake and wanted to test you desprately, why Chaos and Lassr didn't see it too - I don't know....

Lassr saw it earlier, but can't trust me

I suspected Newcastle more than Grund from the erroneous belief that Semaj was SheWolf

But...

first thing that pops in my head is Grundbegriff is guilty. Simply because if we use Scoops reasoning he was pushing yesterday and kill the one's that helps clear someone, that leaves Chaos again today because now killing Grund does no good since we not longer need to clear Scoop since he's dead. Convenient huh?

just a thought.

Not a bad thought.

Grundbegriff --- clears Scoop20906 of She-Wolfdom

Chain reaction (Scoop's death proves One Thing. He's neither He/SheWolf)
And because of that, his death is ominous.

Scoop20906 --- clears Lassr of She-Wolfdom
(Semaj --- clears Lassr of She-Wolfdom)
These two statements PROVE Lassr to be Not SheWolf

Lassr --- clears Mr Bubbles of She-Wolfdom
(Unagi --- clears Mr Bubbles of She-Wolfdom)
These two statements PROVE Mr Bubbles to be Not SheWolf

Newcastle --- clears Remus West of She-Wolfdom
Theohall --- clears Remus West of She-Wolfdom
Mr Bubbles --- clears Remus West of She-Wolfdom
These three don't help us.

Chaosraven --- clears Newcastle of She-Wolfdom

By killing Grund or Chaosraven, the SheWolf would have Proven Scoop or Newcastle as NotSheWolf.
By killing Scoop, it leaves Grund as "useless information"

So, who can we eliminate to gain the most information for tomorrow?

Because now there's no reason to lynch Grund to prove Scoop ain't SheWolf.

But wouldn't *I* have been the better choice? Grund's voucher is expired. Scoop is gone.

Which is why my narrowed eyes are peering at Grund. This would be a nifty play, to kill his own "NotSheWolf" and move himself behind me as "better info lynch", which is what I've been saying these two days.

Alas, Unagi.... A man of infinite quest.

I was going to point out that this was a payback slaughter, since Unagi led the charge on Semaj, and maybe that's correct. But a deeper wrinkle occurred to me: even a payback-worthy Unagi would've been left alive if he were still useful as cover.

I think this implies that the nightly free ride Chaosraven noted may have come to an end.

• Chaosraven
• Grundbegriff
• Lassr
• Mr Bubbles
• Newcastle

Indeed. The SheWolf pool was winnowed pretty heavily.

I'm proceeding under the impression that Semaj was SheWolf.
The Lassr and Bubbles votes suggest to me that neither is HeWolf.

So from my POV that leaves Newcastle and you, Grund.

I'm inclined to believe it's Newcastle, as I stated "yesterday", since I know he's not SheWolf, and the Vote for you seems to me like a "leave the SheWolf alone"

Yes, I suspect Grund more than Lassr or Bubbles, but less than Newcastle.

Here's what's bugging me about this play of yours, Chaosraven. You look as if you're trying to lay groundwork for the endgame-- something only a furball would do. Not setting up today's vote, but angling toward tomorrow's.... The specific thing you're doing is this: you're exonerating Lassr and Mr Bubbles because each of them was willing to vote against Semaj in the 3rd slot of 4 rather than try to save him. (Implicit premise: the He-Wolf would try to save his partner.) However, you're holding me out as a possible furball even though I voted against Semaj (days earlier, in the 2nd slot of 4) after having helped to detect him and make the case against him.

What Is Up With That? And you were notably absent from the detection and prosecution of Semaj, coming in only at the end to cast the 4th and final vote.

I did note my suspicion earlier in the game, but can't claim anything beyond my excessive gaming to explain my absence.
I don't claim any great deduction to have placed the vote on Semaj beyond he was one of the remaining SheWolf candidates.
Could just as easily have been you at 3 votes, Grund, and I probably would have voted that way.

Based on the voting, I have less indication of Furry Tendencies from Lassr and Bubbles than you.
Instead of saying "Grund, you walk like a Woman" perhaps "Bubbles and Lassr walk less like a Woman" is more appropriate, to paraphrase Robert Asprin. Substitute Wolf for Woman.

---------------

[Chaosraven]

And then of course the bugger got me lynched before I could even speak...

[Grundbegriff]

But...

first thing that pops in my head is Grundbegriff is guilty. Simply because if we use Scoops reasoning he was pushing yesterday and kill the one's that helps clear someone, that leaves Chaos again today because now killing Grund does no good since we not longer need to clear Scoop since he's dead. Convenient huh?

just a thought.

Not a bad thought.

Don't forget...

first thing that pops in my head is Grundbegriff is guilty. Simply because if we use Scoops reasoning he was pushing yesterday and kill the one's that helps clear someone, that leaves Chaos again today because now killing Grund does no good since we not longer need to clear Scoop since he's dead. Convenient huh?

just a thought.

That was my thought, too.

[Newcastle]

good game guys, and wellplayed grund. Was fun, I should've stuck to my initial suspicions of you and hammered em home. Ah well them's the breaks. And i am really rusty and out of practice in these games. Geez, figure you tryin to expound on gameplay and you get labeled suspicions, i bring up an unpopular topic, i am a wolf...geez...just kidding. It was fun overall I will say that much.

[Unagi]

Newcastle,
I am curious why you constantly brought up that we should look into XYZ (in this case: look for the He-Wolf signaling the She-Wolf), but then you yourself never once really went back and seemed to have any interest in looking into XYZ.

It was as if you wanted other people to go out and search for a Bad-Guy in a specific way, but that you yourself didn't find the exercise worth your own time... it read a bit insincere.


I also couldn't figure out why you mocked Grund for his original "Is Newcastle signalling", but then went on and on about how we should look for someone dropping signals.

[Chaosraven]

But...

first thing that pops in my head is Grundbegriff is guilty. Simply because if we use Scoops reasoning he was pushing yesterday and kill the one's that helps clear someone, that leaves Chaos again today because now killing Grund does no good since we not longer need to clear Scoop since he's dead. Convenient huh?

just a thought.

Not a bad thought.

Don't forget...

first thing that pops in my head is Grundbegriff is guilty. Simply because if we use Scoops reasoning he was pushing yesterday and kill the one's that helps clear someone, that leaves Chaos again today because now killing Grund does no good since we not longer need to clear Scoop since he's dead. Convenient huh?

just a thought.

That was my thought, too.

Yes you are a sneaky bugger.


Should just add this to my sig...

 Grundbedead 
 

[Newcastle]

Newcastle,
I am curious why you constantly brought up that we should look into XYZ (in this case: look for the He-Wolf signaling the She-Wolf), but then you yourself never once really went back and seemed to have any interest in looking into XYZ.

It was as if you wanted other people to go out and search for a Bad-Guy in a specific way, but that you yourself didn't find the exercise worth your own time... it read a bit insincere.


I also couldn't figure out why you mocked Grund for his original "Is Newcastle signalling", but then went on and on about how we should look for someone dropping signals.

i actually went through and did look for things. And it wasn't meant to be insincere. So my apologies if it read that way. BUt when I sat back and looked at it, nothing jumped out at me. I read through the thread a couple of times, and it just seemed more pokes and prods than anything else. I think it was also due to my solely posting on that topic and not diversifying my conversation into other areas that probably rang to you guys that i was fixated on it. Anyway, am a tad bit rusty in these games. Mocking the grund part - uhm, i was suspecting him as being a wolf kind (like a very slim %) of at the time, though not seriously and i felt him more mocking my attempts at bringing up a point...so it was a mockery for a mockery...if that reads correctly.

[stessier]

One more point of inquiry -

What do people think about having all players turn on "Invisibility" when we play these games (that is, use the Control Panel and check the box that says to show when you are on the board)?

There were a few times when I could have moved the game on faster but had to wait for players to check in. Might have cut a day or two off of the overall game length. Don't know if it would be such a big deal in a bigger game with more Specials, though, as you could only go as fast as your slowest Special.

[Unagi]

One more point of inquiry -

What do people think about having all players turn on "Invisibility" when we play these games (that is, use the Control Panel and check the box that says to show when you are on the board)?

There were a few times when I could have moved the game on faster but had to wait for players to check in. Might have cut a day or two off of the overall game length. Don't know if it would be such a big deal in a bigger game with more Specials, though, as you could only go as fast as your slowest Special.

How are these two things related ?

[Remus West]

One more point of inquiry -

What do people think about having all players turn on "Invisibility" when we play these games (that is, use the Control Panel and check the box that says to show when you are on the board)?

There were a few times when I could have moved the game on faster but had to wait for players to check in. Might have cut a day or two off of the overall game length. Don't know if it would be such a big deal in a bigger game with more Specials, though, as you could only go as fast as your slowest Special.

How are these two things related ?

If everyone marks themselves "invisible" then they do not show up as brousing the forum so nobody can use the "I saw players X, Y, and Z in the forum but not Unagi and the game was held up for 2 days. Thus Unagi is a wolf."

[stessier]

If everyone marks themselves "invisible" then they do not show up as brousing the forum so nobody can use the "I saw players X, Y, and Z in the forum but not Unagi and the game was held up for 2 days. Thus Unagi is a wolf."

Also, if someone is invisible and you look up their name on the member list, it does not show the last time you logged in.

So one case we had a few times this game (with random times thrown in) could be avoided:

Player A logs off on Monday at 11pm.
Vote becomes final at midnight
I update game at 6am
Wolf submits kill order at 11am
Player A logs in again at 9pm

I can't update the game before that because if anyone checked on Player A, they could see that he couldn't possibly be the Wolf. He didn't even know someone had been lynched when he last logged in.

[Unagi]

One more point of inquiry -

What do people think about having all players turn on "Invisibility" when we play these games (that is, use the Control Panel and check the box that says to show when you are on the board)?

There were a few times when I could have moved the game on faster but had to wait for players to check in. Might have cut a day or two off of the overall game length. Don't know if it would be such a big deal in a bigger game with more Specials, though, as you could only go as fast as your slowest Special.

How are these two things related ?

If everyone marks themselves "invisible" then they do not show up as brousing the forum so nobody can use the "I saw players X, Y, and Z in the forum but not Unagi and the game was held up for 2 days. Thus Unagi is a wolf."

Yeah, I basically got that - but one can't actually claim they monitored the forum constantly... So, really it's just the inverse that's true: Player X,Y, and Z didn't appear to be the cause of this hold-up, as I saw them browsing the forum.... I can't speak for Bubba, but I can tell you I never was around when he was....


Stessier's answer is better. (shockingly rare)

The disabled "Last Logged In' feature when you go "invis" will keep any meta-play about player's and wolf activity.

An interesting side note: That feature used to 'not work', and one used to be able to check when the last time an Invisible player logged in...

[stessier]

Stessier's answer is better. (shockingly rare)

You wound me sir!

The disabled "Last Logged In' feature when you go "invis" will keep any meta-play about player's and wolf activity.

Yeah, that.

An interesting side note: That feature used to 'not work', and one used to be able to check when the last time an Invisible player logged in...

I assumed everyone knew that. I also assume everyone checks on member's logged in status and keeps a spreadsheet detailing their posting habits...so what do I know?

[Unagi]

I assumed everyone knew that. I also assume everyone checks on member's logged in status and keeps a spreadsheet detailing their posting habits...so what do I know?

Once, as a wolf - I purposely came out from invis-mode from time to time in the hopes that some meta-gaming player would give me the "foolish villager" nod.

[Scoop20906]

Grund a wolf? I don't believe it!

Fun fun fun! Thanks for the brain dump there Grund and everyone else too.

[Lassr]

Actually I voted Chaos because I wanted Grund to have a happy birthday.

[Grundbegriff]

Actually I voted Chaos because I wanted Grund to have a happy birthday.

Nice save.

[Unagi]

Happy B-day Grund, also - I wanted to thank you as well for that brain dump.

Reading what people are thinking as they make their moves is always interesting and entertaining.

[Remus West]

Happy Birthday, Grund.

[Semaj]

Happy Birthday, your present is I promise not to play the fool nearly as much some game

[Mr Bubbles]

My birthday present you to was letting you kill me. Herzlichen Glückwunsch zum Geburtstag!