[WW] Deep Cover (Postmortem)

[theohall]

You're still missing the point, but whatever.

I don't know why you expect us to get anything. You explain nothing and don't contribute your thoughts.

Hey, it's not my fault when other people (namely, Lord Mortis) broadcast what happened and yet you still want me to spell things out for you when I really shouldn't have to go into any more detail than is absolutely necessary.

And my beef with Newcastle is this: why is the Great Wall treasurer giving out money to people by name and not by role? And why is he questioning why I had 7 credits? What am I supposed to do with 7 credits?

The question is why was it 7 credits? The question is why did you have it - the credits themselves, not the quantity.

And add me to the dense list. Either explain it or you're on the list with Unagi.

I have no idea what you are supposedly hinting at.

[theohall]

You're still missing the point, but whatever.

I don't know why you expect us to get anything. You explain nothing and don't contribute your thoughts.

Hey, it's not my fault when other people (namely, Lord Mortis) broadcast what happened and yet you still want me to spell things out for you when I really shouldn't have to go into any more detail than is absolutely necessary.

And my beef with Newcastle is this: why is the Great Wall treasurer giving out money to people by name and not by role? And why is he questioning why I had 7 credits? What am I supposed to do with 7 credits?

The question is why was it 7 credits? The question is why did you have it - the credits themselves, not the quantity.

And add me to the dense list. Either explain it or you're on the list with Unagi.

I have no idea what you are supposedly hinting at.

Crap I can't type.... that question should be: The question ISN'T why was it 7 credits?

[pr0ner]

There are a variety of ways to earn credits besides having a treasurer hand them out. Bonuses for successful thievery, for example.

[theohall]

There are a variety of ways to earn credits besides having a treasurer hand them out. Bonuses for successful thievery, for example.

So why were you sitting on stuff you stole? PEKs could've been used. What the heck were you waiting for, Mr. Templar??

[pr0ner]

There are a variety of ways to earn credits besides having a treasurer hand them out. Bonuses for successful thievery, for example.

So why were you sitting on stuff you stole? PEKs could've been used. What the heck were you waiting for, Mr. Templar??

Remember what Austin did? Do you really think I wanted a repeat of that?

[theohall]

There are a variety of ways to earn credits besides having a treasurer hand them out. Bonuses for successful thievery, for example.

So why were you sitting on stuff you stole? PEKs could've been used. What the heck were you waiting for, Mr. Templar??

Remember what Austin did? Do you really think I wanted a repeat of that?

Yeah, I remember what Austin did. At least he was trying. What's your excuse? Sitting on PEKs is absolutely pointless when we've already killed two Templars and id'd a third - unless you're a Templar.

[theohall]

BTW - you still haven't stated what is supposed to be so obvious to everyone, but appears to be only obvious to you.

Still waiting.......

[theohall]

This particular game seems to be suffering from Werewolf Weariness - more accurately Werewolf hunting weariness.

• Austin - ??? Don't know if he's good or bad, but suspect bad.
• Chaosraven - new job is keeping him away, but still suspect good.
• Kenetickid - the good guy the Templars keep trying to kill.
• Lagom Lite - probably good still
• LordMortis - probably good still
• Newcastle - probably good still
• paulbaxter - ???? hard to read
• pr0ner - the recent convert who refuses to explain anything as if we can all read his mind.
• Remus West
• Scoop20906
• Sean, Minister of KtSP
• stessier - okay - I was wrong.
• theohall - still special or not - you all figure it out.
• triggercut
• Unagi - bad guy - we need to lynch him.

All of the probably good guys could still be bad guys, but the Austin, paulbaxter, pr0ner trio seem more likely suspects. One of them is a probably original Templar, since Unagi was probably a convert. Austin's accusing everyone ploy from Day One would be very good cover for an original Templar.

Need input. And not some obscure crap from pr0ner we are all supposed to guess about which is so blatantly obvious only to pr0ner.

[pr0ner]

Start here.

[theohall]

Start here.

So you're claiming MoD, but refuse to use PEKs to talk to anyone when you don't have to mention MoD ever in those PEKs. Whatever, Mr. Convertee.

[Grundbegriff]

This particular game seems to be suffering from Werewolf Weariness - more accurately Werewolf hunting weariness.

Anyone want to call it closed and move straight to the postmortem? It was, after all, an experiment.

[pr0ner]

This particular game seems to be suffering from Werewolf Weariness - more accurately Werewolf hunting weariness.

Anyone want to call it closed and move straight to the postmortem? It was, after all, an experiment.

No!

[pr0ner]

Start here.

So you're claiming MoD, but refuse to use PEKs to talk to anyone when you don't have to mention MoD ever in those PEKs. Whatever, Mr. Convertee.

You can't be serious.

[Newcastle]

i think we should petitition the mods to only enable the for proner...only...and only after he has written a post that is more than 7 words.

And I PM'd Grund my response to his question.

[theohall]

Start here.

So you're claiming MoD, but refuse to use PEKs to talk to anyone when you don't have to mention MoD ever in those PEKs. Whatever, Mr. Convertee.

You can't be serious.

What have you told us since the BAP? Absolutely nothing. We are all supposed to read your mind. But, as Newcastle pointed out, you seem incapable of writing a post of more than seven words. Known Wallies - several of us - have asked for clarification, which you still haven't provided.

So, I repeat, what is so obvious only to you? And knock off the seven words or less replies and links to crap which doesn't really tell us anything.

[pr0ner]

Did you read beyond the linked post?

[pr0ner]

And being demanding will get you nowhere.

[theohall]

This particular game seems to be suffering from Werewolf Weariness - more accurately Werewolf hunting weariness.

Anyone want to call it closed and move straight to the postmortem? It was, after all, an experiment.

If they've managed to convert two, and we've killed two - it's still 8-3 and we know one of the three.

I'm aware the rules provide means for the Wall to overcome the Temple, but it seems to me the major flaw in the rules set is what happens during a CCC - especially when it hits multiple roles. 1) The Temple converts a Wallie who knows 3 roles. 2) All 3 roles get reassigned. 3) The Temple knows all 3 roles had to be re-assigned and can ignore those three Wallies, concentrating their efforts on the remaining few. This, to me, heavily favors the Temple. Now, if the "random reassignment" of roles allowed for the three originals to still have their roles, then the Temple is still guessing whom to scan, instead of having automatic players to ignore.

Then there is the random reassignment of the Treasurer and the possibility the Wallie Treasurer could be assigned to a Templar thing.

There is more stuff to discuss, but have to sleep on it and post when more lucid.

[Grundbegriff]

I'm inclined to bring this one to a close and analyze it. Here's why:

1. One player has been incommunicado for quite some time.
2. Another player has been overcome by events and can participate only minimally.
3. Earlier in the game, when members of each side were paranoid about the possibility of an unfavorable imbalance, there wasn't one. Now, however, there might very well be one.
4. If the outcome can now be foreseen, it doesn't seem worthwhile to go through all the work to get there.
5. Strategy and tactics have devolved into a formula that sidelines most options in favor of a Black Bag Fest.

Thoughts?

[theohall]

Did you read beyond the linked post?

Unfortunately, I did... and it still doesn't make sense. And you still haven't said anything.

 pr0ner 
 


I suggest the rest of the Wallies who want pr0ner to talk do the same. Otherwise, he's going to sit here making annoying posts which tell us nothing.

[theohall]

I'm inclined to bring this one to a close and analyze it. Here's why:

1. One player has been incommunicado for quite some time.
2. Another player has been overcome by events and can participate only minimally.
3. Earlier in the game, when members of each side were paranoid about the possibility of an unfavorable imbalance, there wasn't one. Now, however, there might very well be one.
4. If the outcome can now be foreseen, it doesn't seem worthwhile to go through all the work to get there.
5. Strategy and tactics have devolved into a formula that sidelines most options in favor of a Black Bag Fest.

Thoughts?

I concur with all of the above. Including the "Thoughts?" because I now have some having played through this. Some were previously shared. I'm guessing part of the imbalance happened due to CCCs, clever use of MPs by the Temple, killing someone, using MPs again (because they could've identified essentially every Wall member doing this), and then CCCing again, and then more clever MPs, along with a missing Treasurer resulting in the Temple gaining a serious advantage over the Wall. As in they know everyone's roles and can steal them whenever they want, if they haven't already.

[Newcastle]

I'm inclined to bring this one to a close and analyze it. Here's why:

1. One player has been incommunicado for quite some time.
2. Another player has been overcome by events and can participate only minimally.
3. Earlier in the game, when members of each side were paranoid about the possibility of an unfavorable imbalance, there wasn't one. Now, however, there might very well be one.
4. If the outcome can now be foreseen, it doesn't seem worthwhile to go through all the work to get there.
5. Strategy and tactics have devolved into a formula that sidelines most options in favor of a Black Bag Fest.

Thoughts?

I would close it then grund for all of those reasons. I am willing to continue, but I think reasons 3-5 are cause for concern in terms of game "funness". I am happy to defer to your wisdom on it though.

If we do choose to continue, is it possible to bring in a sub for the first two reasons? Would it be worthwhile?

[Grundbegriff]

It seems likely that this would require several more days, that it would offer less fun and not more, and that swapping in players for those whose participation has been compromised would not change this.

I'd like to thank all the participants for putting up a valiant fight on either side, and for helping me to understand the features and limitations of this ruleset.

[Unagi]

I agree Grund. I've been worried about #5.

It was interesting and fun, and took a lot of turns and I honestly still am not exactly sure how things would have turned out...

We got lucky a lot at night, pretty damn unlucky in the day though.

But, honestly guys - it looked from my stand point that we would almost certainly avoid a lynch today, assure ourselves a convert tonight of the Analyst (perhaps even the MoD), and avoid a lynch tomorrow too.

I could also be gloriously wrong.

[Remus West]

won't comment here until the decision is final one way or the other

[Newcastle]

/passes grund the shotgun and shovel

"Time to kill it! We can bury it in Stessier's backyard."

[Newcastle]

Unagi, that admission is jaw dropping actually if you guys were able to avoid the lynch. Something is off, and i am kind of curious what. I think it involves BB. But we shall see.

[pr0ner]

Did you read beyond the linked post?

Unfortunately, I did... and it still doesn't make sense. And you still haven't said anything.

 pr0ner 
 


I suggest the rest of the Wallies who want pr0ner to talk do the same. Otherwise, he's going to sit here making annoying posts which tell us nothing.

Just how far did you read, exactly?

[pr0ner]

You're so very wrong about me, Theohall.

[pr0ner]

Grund, is the game officially over now?

[Chaosraven]

Oh sure, after I get converted and kill Remus *NOW* yer gonna call the game.

Wait, it's not over yet?

[penguin]
you didn't see anything
[/penguin]

[Grundbegriff]

Thank you, everyone, for trying out this game. I appreciate your participation, and I hope it offered some fun. Nominal victory goes to the Temple for superior tactics and strategic insight.

Maybe after retooling the rules, we'll put the game at the back of the queue and try again.

Meanwhile, here's a link to the Templar forum and the Spoiler forum, and here's a link to my Spreadsheet of Destiny.

Please provide any and all commentary in this thread. Thanks!

It is postmortem!

[triggercut]

As I said in the spoiler thread, the game itself is very balanced from the beginning....but for this first run-though, the Temple had one huge advantage: we could talk about the rules. We could contradict one another's mis-read of the rules, we could cite rules that spoiled a suggested gambit, we could bounce ideas off one another. As a result, The Temple largely made their mistakes on the Temple forum, while the Wallies made their mistakes in the game.

The turning point happened Tuesday.

1. Sean gave away his token. That was huge for the Temple.

2. The Temple nearly didn't mount a theft against pr0ner, but did so finally and pulled a hell of a haul off him. A lot of those toys would be used against the Wall later on.

3. No one DiTted or protected Sean. His was the only token held by the Temple. DiTting him would have invalidated his token. Even a single BB protection would have saved him.

[Unagi]

So at this point in the game (I haven't yet looked at spoilers)

We knew:
Stessier was the Crypto again (perhaps MoD as well)
pr0ner was perhaps still the MoD, and perhaps was going to be holding Analyst in the spare slot.

We had 8 BBs to protect myself from lynch today.

We had over 900 funds to spend tonight (was plannning on performing an MP on each of you).

Tomorrow, the Great Wall would still have no BB's and we would likely have a bunch left over - and hence, again - no Lynch tomorrow.


The first real gain to our funding came when I (the Treasurer for the Temple), DITed my role over to our convert target: paulbaxter. The idea here was to turn him into a perminan "sticky" treasurer - and he would get the same funding $ as ther Great Wall Treasurer.

This is what let us combat Newcastle on the night he also had 440 to spend.

Our use of BBs that night:

BB Trail Paul 12x
BB Trail Remus 4x
BB Trail Newcastle 3x
BB Trail Theo 2x
BB Trail Chaos 2x
BB Trail LM 2x
BB Trail stessier 2x
BB Trail pr0ner 2x
BB Trail KK 2x
BB Trail Lagom 2x
- - - -
BB Thief Remus
BB Thief Chaos
BB Thief Theo
BB Thief Newcastle
BB Theif LM
BB Thief KK

Then it got really crazy this morning, when I randomly got the actual Great Wall Treasurer role for the day.

We had just robbed Newcastle, Remus, LM of:
Remus West - 3 Black Bags
LordMortis - 2 Black Bags
Newcastle - 2 Black Bags

(paul still had 1 bag left from last night)

Our plan for tonight was basically (we had funds to actually expand on this, but hadn't yet done all the sub-allocations)

Plan for Austin:
12 BB TRAILS: I think we Trail (stessier, pr0ner, lagom) all x4. Overkill really. (This will force them each to fail on 4 BB attempts, so they will likely not steal anything from us - even if they have BB's now, I don't think they will still have tomorror night)
3 BB THIEFS: May as well rob those 3 too?
10 BB TRAILS: on paulbaxter
1 DIT for Side-Plan(see below)
2 extra BB's Trails on everyone for good measure.

Plan for Paul:
MP all of em! 8 x 40 = 320 will give us an MP against them all.
3 BBs to hold for lynch protection tomorrow.
1 PEK to speak with our Sleeper, if needed.

Super Secret Side-Plan Details:
I'd like to do this in an attempt to see what stessier is/isn't. (pr0ner could very well be the MoD still, and my concern is for nothing...)
Give and extra 40 to Austin (it will be vulnerable to theft)
Austin buy's DIT and uses it against stessier.
Result 1): Austin rips MoD off stessier -> Austin holds MoD/"SA" / stessier would hold "Crypto" still (if that's whats in the second slot)... and we would have Stessier's Crypto token (or what ever it is, as we'd also MP him).
Result 2): Austin rips Crypto off stessier -> Austin holds Cryto / stessier would now hold "SA" and we'd have his toke (again, we'd still be MPing stessier for insurance).

We'd have converted stessier tonight (I'm pretty sure), unless we found Analyst on someone other than pr0ner (Analyst on pr0ner would have been likely in his secondary slot).

[Unagi]

The turning point happened Tuesday.

while that was a key moment, the real Turning point was when I DITed paulbaxter, I think. That - combined with the BB's we kept taking from our converts - was what kept us alive.

Also, I thought it was ironic that we never tactically planed to save ourselves from lynch - but the BBs fell in our laps.

[pr0ner]

Yeah, buying all those toys that one night, in retrospect, was a risky play. At the time I decided to buy them, I figured I could have a great deal of game-changing information for the Wall. I also dropped some pretty big hints in the thread that giving me some sort of protection that night on me was the way to go, but I guess that didn't actually happen. After that point, it appeared the game was going to be a black bag fest, and I used whatever funding I had left on black bags.

Austin having to come out in the open with my PEK conversation didn't help matters. Now that I see he was converted temple, it makes sense, and should have set off warning bells (hindsight being what it is...).

Unagi, how, exactly, were you going to convert the MoD? If you scanned me, you would have only gotten that I was Analyst, but from my understanding of the rules, not my token, since Analyst wasn't my real role. Continued from this understanding, the current MoD would always be immune to conversion or death at night, as long as he didn't self out.

I know I made a couple of unwise choices in this game, but I can clearly see that's due to a) bad luck and b) a new rule set that I still enjoyed playing even though things fizzled out.

[Austin]

Trig's point too, pr0ner, that you guys could not openly communicate hurts too. Bouncing ideas off each other is key, as would have been able to request protection.

[triggercut]

The turning point happened Tuesday.

while that was a key moment, the real Turning point was when I DITed paulbaxter, I think.

....with the DIT you stole from pr0ner on Tuesday. Tuesday night, the stars were aligned for a complete Wall victory. By Wednesday night, that chance had slipped away.

[pr0ner]

Trig's point too, pr0ner, that you guys could not openly communicate hurts too. Bouncing ideas off each other is key, as would have been able to request protection.

Yeah. I couldn't self-out and say "PROTECT ME".

I noticed LM had an MP order in the night I DiTed with him that had your name on it.

[Grundbegriff]

Trig's point too, pr0ner, that you guys could not openly communicate hurts too. Bouncing ideas off each other is key, as would have been able to request protection.

Yeah. I couldn't self-out and say "PROTECT ME".

Here's a point on which I disagree.

One approach that the Wall never considered -- an approach perfectly viable once money was in play -- would've been for someone to go ahead and give up his token by self-outing, collaborate openly, and hope to offset the giving of the token with protection or a swap. Sure, it would carry the risk of vesting too much trust in someone who might be a bad guy. But then, not doing this also carries risks.