The Dark Knight - Fade to Black

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:39 pm

As someone who plays infrequently, I'm really failing to see what incentive there is to speak in the early days of these games. The early goings are random crapshoots.

I also fail to see why Rachel wounldn't immediately out Harvey to the Bat.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:50 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:As someone who plays infrequently, I'm really failing to see what incentive there is to speak in the early days of these games. The early goings are random crapshoots.

I also fail to see why Rachel wounldn't immediately out Harvey to the Bat.

I agree.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:03 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:As someone who plays infrequently, I'm really failing to see what incentive there is to speak in the early days of these games. The early goings are random crapshoots.

I also fail to see why Rachel wounldn't immediately out Harvey to the Bat.

after going over the outing scenario, I find Rachel to be interesting. What do the bad guys do if Rodriguez finds her? I guess make sure they don't kill her immediately? Would they want to set two-face on the loose to hunt the good specials and risk him finding the bad guys?

and no all encompassing seer in this game. Once they've found their target scan, I would assume they out themselves and reveal the scan, although they have secondary roles to perform also,and that would be eliminated by the bad guys that night (barring protection).

Grund is back to his disappearing act and Brendan

where are you? Told you I would vote for you first.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:05 pm

Trying to figure out what I think about Tru1cy's statement.

His contribution to that level, this early in the game seems a little 'special'. I didn't want to call attention to it - as a change in tru1cy's MO can point to him being 'special/good' as much as 'special/evil'. I'm a little surprised most people didn't "sit on that" thought for a little while, instead - calling him out for it. That being said - I honestly think that the 'evil' team - watching a tru1cy unfold in a way that makes him seem 'special' to them - they would be quiet about it, and try and dispense with him before he had a chance to make a claim. This sorta puts Lassr and Scoop in a 'good' light (IMO).

So I am left with the part where tru1cy makes it clear, if we go with his idea to "out the non-powered", that he is part of that group - in effect, he's said we could mass-out the non-powered, and then he started with himself.

If you are convinced that tru1cy is 'a special', does that move place him in a 'evil' or 'good' light. I'm a bit on the fence.
Personally, I think it would be a pretty slick move to make as a Good Special. And, while I am sure he "gets the game" enough to make a move like that - I don't think that's really tru1cy's MO. I guess I am saying that I am leaning that he's either unpowered-good / evil. (65/30 w/ 5% left for special good)

Gonna watch some more unfolding. Waiting to get nabbed by Grund...

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:23 pm

Unagi wrote:Personally, I think it would be a pretty slick move to make as a Good Special. And, while I am sure he "gets the game" enough to make a move like that - I don't think that's really tru1cy's MO. I guess I am saying that I am leaning that he's either unpowered-good / evil. (65/30 w/ 5% left for special good)

FWIW, I feel like it happened too quickly for him to be in league with a bunch of other players (who would have, I suspect, implicit buyoff on his decision to out himself.) Ergo, I'm inclined to think non-special, as one moves fast when making unilateral decisions.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:23 pm

I don't see how a mass outing of unpowered citizens will help. Either all the powered good and bad claim the same or the pools there will be dwindled seriously for the opposing powereds to search thru. Rachel should immediately tell batman who dent is, no reason not to. But under no circumstances should she reveal batman TO dent.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:31 pm

Chaosraven wrote:But under no circumstances should she reveal batman TO dent.

That thought was in my head as well, it just didn't make it into the post. I whole-heartedly agree. You tell the dogcatcher where the tame pitbull is, you don't lead the tame pitbull to the dogcatcher's house for use when the pitbull snaps and starts taking out the villagers.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:31 pm

Chaosraven wrote:Rachel should immediately tell batman who dent is, no reason not to. But under no circumstances should she reveal batman TO dent.

(I hope that is everyone's consensus.)

That's gotta be funny on her end..

"C'mon baby... Why you gotta be sharing this information with that Bat guy? can't you tell me who he is too?? I'm not gonna go all crazy or anything... c'mon - we're all on the same side here. "

wow - actually that just gave me an idea 'for next time'. Two-face should have a power that forces Batman to be exposed. Wouldn't that line-up with the movie well?

Or, perhaps we should say that Rachel can win with Either a Good-guy victory OR a Two-Face victory... just to give her a reason not to share Dent's name?
either way - I think it's too late for any change on that level in this game.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:36 pm

Unagi wrote: His contribution to that level, this early in the game seems a little 'special'. I didn't want to call attention to it - as a change in tru1cy's MO can point to him being 'special/good' as much as 'special/evil'. I'm a little surprised most people didn't "sit on that" thought for a little while, instead - calling him out for it. That being said - I honestly think that the 'evil' team - watching a tru1cy unfold in a way that makes him seem 'special' to them - they would be quiet about it, and try and dispense with him before he had a chance to make a claim. This sorta puts Lassr and Scoop in a 'good' light (IMO).

well, I didn't want to bring that part to light if it wasn't obvious.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:41 pm

Unagi wrote:Or, perhaps we should say that Rachel can win with Either a Good-guy victory OR a Two-Face victory... just to give her a reason not to share Dent's name?
either way - I think it's too late for any change on that level in this game.

Uhm, seeing as Two Face's existence is predicated on her death, I'm not sure what incentive "winning" under Two-Face conditions would have. Personally, I prefer survival to being a dead member of a winning team.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:45 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:I prefer survival to being a dead member of a winning team.

Um. no. really?! Dude.

This is about Good vs Evil (with another side tossed in on this one). This is about your team winning, not You surviving.

Oh, just about everyone and their brother is about to chime in here, on why that's just wrong. (Clearly, you are entitled to have that view - it's just so very very wrong.)

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:51 pm

Seeing as the games where evil wins usually end with a bloodbath offing the remaining good members, I think they are complementary. I can't help my team to win if I'm dead.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:54 pm

Am I reading the rules right? What happens to a nightly kill if joker is lynched? If there isn't one, perhaps it would behoove the good guys to pass along a joker scan result from bats to rach to dent. Dent could come out with it and as the wild card of the threee, getting him shot or killed saves the game from ever facing twoface. In the above spirit, dent would win as a dead good guy if the good guys win. Hell, if gordon is still alive even the snipe would do no good.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:59 pm

Chaosraven wrote:Am I reading the rules right? What happens to a nightly kill if joker is lynched?

Sorry, thought I updated that. The order for entering the Night Kill is

Joker
Sniper
Officer Ramirez

When I was making the rules originally, I never envisioned the Joker being caught/lynched.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:08 pm

stessier wrote:When I was making the rules originally, I never envisioned the Joker being caught/lynched.

stessier

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:09 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:Seeing as the games where evil wins usually end with a bloodbath offing the remaining good members, I think they are complementary. I can't help my team to win if I'm dead.

You may be helping your team depending on the method of getting yourself dead. For example, one might aspire to take a bullet/get lynched rather than lose a more powerful teammate.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:10 pm

Doggoned well meaning mods. That was bait.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:26 pm

Brendan wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:Seeing as the games where evil wins usually end with a bloodbath offing the remaining good members, I think they are complementary. I can't help my team to win if I'm dead.
You may be helping your team depending on the method of getting yourself dead. For example, one might aspire to take a bullet/get lynched rather than lose a more powerful teammate.

In a specific case, sure, but I don't use that as any sort of overarching strategy. While I may suffer from a persecution complex, I do not have a martyr complex.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:41 pm

Says the guy who pulled a tru1cy vote last game...

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:48 pm

A touch of suicidal tendencies, perhaps, but still not martyrdom.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:49 pm

Well, I think the Mass Outing idea is dead. Good thing too. Glad to see everyone is analyzing the rulez. Isgrimnur blew my mind by bringing up something I never even considered when I read the rulez. Kudos to your Isgrimnur. And he points out correct that there really isn't any reason to talk during the Day One crapshoot but some of us are completely incapable of keeping our mouths shut and we pay the price for out lack of vision from time to time. Still, I really would like to see some voting going on. We aren't going to learn anything by sitting on our keyboards.

Lagom Lite · Post by **Lagom Lite** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:02 pm

withdraw Chaosraven

Hi!! Nice to see you.

Everyone except Grund has checked in, so that means we have no silent players.

tru1cy's post does stick out, but I don't know what to make of it yet.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:08 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:And he points out correct that there really isn't any reason to talk during the Day One crapshoot.

This is a load of crap. If you have no reason to talk day 1 then you also have no reason to talk the next day in all likelihood. The reason for talking is to allow the other players to see how you are approaching the game. Giving them a feel for whether you are good or evil. For instance - tru1cy. I do not agree with his post but it very much makes me lean unpowered good regarding him. If he is an evil player then kudos to a risky play but if he is a good unpowered it means fewer good guys spend scans on him and thus makes it more likely to find the bad guys all while leaving the bad guys with the "does the semi-trusted tru1cy need to die" question. All because he spoke. Remaining silent does not assist the good guys in any way. The bad guys already know who is on their team after all.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:01 pm

Some of the things to discuss: as there doesn't seem to be a way to stop the sniper, does Lucius keep a hold on his positive id to hope for a shot against batman? Should alfred just keep us all aware in public each day what the dead were? A mass outing is one thing, but what of the specific specials? I think we should chime in on strategies involving that. For example, I am of the opinion that alfred should indeed tell us tomorrow what newcastle was, as long as Ramirez is around she could fake it after alfred dies unless we know alfred is dead. Gordon could protect alfred on rotation, with the bad guys having to chance the protection. Thoughts?

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:12 pm

Remus West wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:And he points out correct that there really isn't any reason to talk during the Day One crapshoot.
This is a load of crap. If you have no reason to talk day 1 then you also have no reason to talk the next day in all likelihood. The reason for talking is to allow the other players to see how you are approaching the game. Giving them a feel for whether you are good or evil. For instance - tru1cy. I do not agree with his post but it very much makes me lean unpowered good regarding him. If he is an evil player then kudos to a risky play but if he is a good unpowered it means fewer good guys spend scans on him and thus makes it more likely to find the bad guys all while leaving the bad guys with the "does the semi-trusted tru1cy need to die" question. All because he spoke. Remaining silent does not assist the good guys in any way. The bad guys already know who is on their team after all.

I disagree. I have seen time and again that a good strategy if you want to live in these games is to be a wallflower and stay in the background. Obviously, its not the way I play and I have been killed time and time again simply because I post too much.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:29 pm

Outing Alfred reduces the number of folks bad guys have to scan. Given they have 3 scans per night (on top of Ramirez's morgue scan) reducing their pool of suspects isn't necessarily a good thing.

Only positive I see is we gain information, but at what cost. It gives the bad guys a guaranteed target whom they never have to scan and can attempt to kill whenever they desire. Meanwhile, one of their own is busy playing Alfred on the side and we have to decide which one is the real Alfred. Kill the wrong one and now the bad guys can feed you bad information. Of course, 50/50 is better than guessing amongst the field, but a wrong 50/50 takes away a valuable good guy tool.

This doesn't look like a plus move for Day Two, to me.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:29 pm

Scoop? Post too much?? Never...

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:52 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:And he points out correct that there really isn't any reason to talk during the Day One crapshoot.
This is a load of crap. If you have no reason to talk day 1 then you also have no reason to talk the next day in all likelihood. The reason for talking is to allow the other players to see how you are approaching the game. Giving them a feel for whether you are good or evil. For instance - tru1cy. I do not agree with his post but it very much makes me lean unpowered good regarding him. If he is an evil player then kudos to a risky play but if he is a good unpowered it means fewer good guys spend scans on him and thus makes it more likely to find the bad guys all while leaving the bad guys with the "does the semi-trusted tru1cy need to die" question. All because he spoke. Remaining silent does not assist the good guys in any way. The bad guys already know who is on their team after all.
I disagree. I have seen time and again that a good strategy if you want to live in these games is to be a wallflower and stay in the background. Obviously, its not the way I play and I have been killed time and time again simply because I post too much.

I can attest to this. How many times have people insisted I'm a bad guy and turn out good. It makes you want to take a step back, but at the same time I do agree with Remus. You want to have some type of idea, even if it's minuscule. Anything is better than nothing.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:54 pm

Public Alfred - theohall opposed.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:05 pm

Public Alfred - ignored by Mr Bubbles

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:12 pm

Put me down for ignore Public Alfred.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:32 pm

Really? Gave you benefit of doubt based on time of post. Duly noted.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:56 pm

Sorry, I was just being snarky.

Chaosraven wrote:Some of the things to discuss: as there doesn't seem to be a way to stop the sniper, does Lucius keep a hold on his positive id to hope for a shot against batman?

Negative. The sniper won't take a shot unless he has a good target and he doesn't want to kill a citizen and shrink the pool the jokers can hide in or worse waste his shot on Batman. If Lucius scans the sniper he should come out instantly.

Chaosraven wrote:Should alfred just keep us all aware in public each day what the dead were? A mass outing is one thing, but what of the specific specials? I think we should chime in on strategies involving that. For example, I am of the opinion that alfred should indeed tell us tomorrow what newcastle was, as long as Ramirez is around she could fake it after alfred dies unless we know alfred is dead. Gordon could protect alfred on rotation, with the bad guys having to chance the protection. Thoughts?

As soon as Alfred comes out he gets shot. If the Sniper is dead or has fired his shot then I am cool with Alfred letting us know the roles of those who had died so far. Gordon can't protect Alfred during the day when the sniper can shoot him.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:00 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:And he points out correct that there really isn't any reason to talk during the Day One crapshoot.
This is a load of crap. If you have no reason to talk day 1 then you also have no reason to talk the next day in all likelihood. The reason for talking is to allow the other players to see how you are approaching the game. Giving them a feel for whether you are good or evil. For instance - tru1cy. I do not agree with his post but it very much makes me lean unpowered good regarding him. If he is an evil player then kudos to a risky play but if he is a good unpowered it means fewer good guys spend scans on him and thus makes it more likely to find the bad guys all while leaving the bad guys with the "does the semi-trusted tru1cy need to die" question. All because he spoke. Remaining silent does not assist the good guys in any way. The bad guys already know who is on their team after all.
I disagree. I have seen time and again that a good strategy if you want to live in these games is to be a wallflower and stay in the background. Obviously, its not the way I play and I have been killed time and time again simply because I post too much.

Bolding is mine. The point is not to live. The point is to win. You win by getting rid of the other team pure and simple. If you death makes us aware of an evil player than you have made a good play. If you out more than one you have made a spectacular play. If your death simply serves to limit the field and make it easier for us to find them it is still a good play. The only ones that need focus on staying alive are the evil players.

As for Alfred, I need to read the rules for each special more closely before I opine about that.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:18 pm

theohall wrote:Outing Alfred reduces the number of folks bad guys have to scan. Given they have 3 scans per night (on top of Ramirez's morgue scan) reducing their pool of suspects isn't necessarily a good thing.

Their 3 scans aren't equivalent - because each only detects certain people, they'd have to all scan the same person to be confident that that individual wasn't powered in some way.

Chaosraven wrote:For example, I am of the opinion that alfred should indeed tell us tomorrow what newcastle was, as long as Ramirez is around she could fake it after alfred dies unless we know alfred is dead. Gordon could protect alfred on rotation, with the bad guys having to chance the protection. Thoughts?

Chaosraven - you're suggesting Alfred out himself after waiting one more night ("tomorrow")? Is that just to have 2 results to share?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:40 pm

I believe it's only one result, but I am suggesting that the bad guys will have info on the dead shared between them which they will always have until ramirez dies, whereas we will not have unless alfred shares it and dies with him in the event of his demise. Are we hoping the sniper instead makes an attempt on batman or dent? We won't know if gordon or lucius are dead, but they might. Thats the sort of thing i'm talking about

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:00 pm

I think it is a pretty safe assumption that anyone getting sniped means they were special aside from the rules regarding protection and immunity etc.

At some point, determined by Batman, Rachel, and Harvey Dent, Harvey should make himself known along with any information provided by the scans they have done to that point. If I understand it correctly there is no reason Batman should not tell Rachel and through her Harvey the results of his scans and no reason Harvey would not do the same in reverse with his own scans. Harvey is the perfect public speaker (

) for this as he could turn against us if left alive yet will be in possession of knowledge we need. Combine their scans with the other scans provided by our side and we might actually be able to clear some folks.

I do not think Alfred should feel the need to come forward tomorrow unless he has some very interesting news to share. I don't see a ton of benefit in an early outing simply to say Newcastle was not a powered if that is the case. I'm assuming that Alfred scans the night kills to keep us even with the bad guys if a night behind. The lynchees should tell us if it is important we know what they are.

I still say we lynch Semaj today if only for the funny.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:07 am

maybe if/when Alfred finds one of our specials is dead then it would be a good time to come out. Otherwise silence means he's dead or no specials. How would we know which? We wouldn't, just like in every other game we play.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:22 am

Lassr wrote:maybe if/when Alfred finds one of our specials is dead then it would be a good time to come out. Otherwise silence means he's dead or no specials. How would we know which? We wouldn't, just like in every other game we play.

Hmmm. Assume silence means (a) Alfred is dead or (b) The guy in the morgue was a Normal?

Should we play the "If I were Alfred this is what I'd do"?

Guess Alfred could also know whether Gordon is around to protect him

Lagom Lite · Post by **Lagom Lite** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:44 am

Lassr wrote:maybe if/when Alfred finds one of our specials is dead then it would be a good time to come out. Otherwise silence means he's dead or no specials. How would we know which? We wouldn't, just like in every other game we play.

+1