The Dark Knight - Fade to Black

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:21 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: Grundbegriff

For editing and confusing the mod.

Ah, how the mighty have fallen.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:24 pm

Unagi wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:
Unagi wrote: Brendan

I welcome that up to the rest of you. I don't expect other people to pay attention to two other peoples interactions through out these games, but I find his reason to be backward.
I'm not really following why either of you is voting for the other. Other than you have no real reasons.
I'm voting for Brenan because he claimed (after following tru1cy's vote) that he would vote for me because he is normally inclined not to.

I think that his picking me as a Convert and the fact that we have that one BSG game that was a struggle between him and I, that those two things point to Brenden being insincere with the reasoning for voting for me.... and that I find to be the move of a wolf.

See, now I know you're a special - you misspelled my name twice in two consecutive sentences - once missing a D, and once with an e in place of an A, clearly signaling that you're DA Harvey Dent (FOR NOW.)

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:32 pm

Brendan wrote:
Unagi wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:
Unagi wrote: Brendan

I welcome that up to the rest of you. I don't expect other people to pay attention to two other peoples interactions through out these games, but I find his reason to be backward.
I'm not really following why either of you is voting for the other. Other than you have no real reasons.
I'm voting for Brenan because he claimed (after following tru1cy's vote) that he would vote for me because he is normally inclined not to.

I think that his picking me as a Convert and the fact that we have that one BSG game that was a struggle between him and I, that those two things point to Brenden being insincere with the reasoning for voting for me.... and that I find to be the move of a wolf.
See, now I know you're a special - you misspelled my name twice in two consecutive sentences - once missing a D, and once with an e in place of an A, clearly signaling that you're DA Harvey Dent (FOR NOW.)

Is it weird that I noticed the same thing too? I was trying to figure out what it meant too.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:42 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
Unagi wrote:
Doesn't count for Good or Bad
Right. And that's broken for him, since it ends his game prematurely. (Plus it leads to the possibility of this scenario: We know that one Evil is dead and that two remain, and the population is five, and the game ends with an evil victory.)

BTW, I modified the text you quoted after I had thought about the issue more clearly. (For example, "Is he counted when his targets don't actually exist" reflects an impossible situation.)

Please see above, and perhaps alter your quote to reflect the final version.

Once Dent becomes Two Face he is on his own team. However, Grund's point seems to be that it actually makes it more difficult for Two Face to win. Perhaps, Stessier should amend the rulez to allow Two Face to choose (once he is converted by the death of Rachel ) which side (Good or Evil) he counts for. He can do this secretly, adds to the drama of the end game and allows Two Face to stretch it out a little longer. I don't believe this rulez change would hurt the current game we are in.

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:46 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Unagi wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:
Unagi wrote: Brendan

I welcome that up to the rest of you. I don't expect other people to pay attention to two other peoples interactions through out these games, but I find his reason to be backward.
I'm not really following why either of you is voting for the other. Other than you have no real reasons.
I'm voting for Brenan because he claimed (after following tru1cy's vote) that he would vote for me because he is normally inclined not to.

I think that his picking me as a Convert and the fact that we have that one BSG game that was a struggle between him and I, that those two things point to Brenden being insincere with the reasoning for voting for me.... and that I find to be the move of a wolf.
See, now I know you're a special - you misspelled my name twice in two consecutive sentences - once missing a D, and once with an e in place of an A, clearly signaling that you're DA Harvey Dent (FOR NOW.)
Is it weird that I noticed the same thing too? I was trying to figure out what it meant too.

I think at this rate we'll out everyone by day 2.

Semaj · Post by **Semaj** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:00 pm

Only if they can be outed.

Lets face it, I'm totally straight so no way to out me...

Now if you said Batman was outed, I wouldn't be shocked.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:26 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
stessier wrote: Victory Conditions
Two Face wins when his targets (Batman/Gordon) or (Batman/Gordon/Joker) are dead. This supersedes all other victories.

Good wins once all Bad Guys are dead

Bad Guys win once their number equals or exceeds the number of Good Guys

Assume that Rachel is dead. (She should PM the identity of Two Face to Batman ASAP, btw).

Q: Do Bad Guys win once their number equals (Good Guys + Two Face)? In other words, does TF count as a GG for satisfaction of this condition? I think he should, even though he's not numbered among the Good.

Contemplating...

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:30 pm

Vote Count - Act 1

Scoop acc tru1cy (1)
Lagom acc Chaos (1)
Remus acc Semaj (1)
theohall acc Mr Bubbles (1)
Semaj acc Remus (1)
Lassr acc Brendan (1)
Lagom wd Chaos (0)
Scoop wd tru1cy (0)
Scoop acc Remus (2)
Bubbles acc Chaos (1)
tru1cy acc Unagi (1)
Semaj wd Remus (1)
Semaj acc Isgrimnur (1)
Brendan acc Unagi (2)
Unagi acc Brendan (2)
Isgrimnur acc Grund (1)

Mob rule occurs at 7 votes.

Against Semaj (1): Remus
Against Mr Bubbles (1): theohall
Against Remus (1): Scoop20906
Against Brendan (2): Lassr, Unagi
Against Chaosraven (1): Bubbles
Against Unagi (2): tru1cy, Brendan
Against Isgrimnur (1): Semaj
Against Grund (1): Isgrimnur

No votes: Chaosraven, Lagom Lite, Grundbegriff

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:31 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:However, Grund's point seems to be that it actually makes it more difficult for Two Face to win.

Right, and maybe that's ok even if it has weird side effects (as noted above).

Perhaps, Stessier should amend the rulez to allow Two Face to choose (once he is converted by the death of Rachel ) which side (Good or Evil) he counts for.

He would never align with Evil, since that would make his victory even more difficult (bringing equilibrium even nearer).

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:38 pm

Played correctly at that stage, he's random, not Chaotic Neutral. Equilibrium means as much to the true character about as much as it does to the coin he flips. There is no regression to the mean or seeking to preserve the balance.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:40 pm

stessier wrote:Contemplating...

It boils down to two decision points:

(1) Is it OK for Two Face's game to be a little bit harder (since his failure alarm could go off when he's just on the cusp of victory). I called that broken, but it's not really broken; it's just harder.

(2) Is it OK for the "We know that one Evil is dead and that two remain, and the population is five, and the game suddenly ends with an evil victory" scenario to unfold? If that's not a problem, then it doesn't require prevention.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:49 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
Perhaps, Stessier should amend the rulez to allow Two Face to choose (once he is converted by the death of Rachel ) which side (Good or Evil) he counts for.
He would never align with Evil, since that would make his victory even more difficult (bringing equilibrium even nearer).

This is true.

Two-Face's only goal in life is to see Batman/Gordon/Joker(maybe) dead. To further this goal, I agree that he would hide on the Good side to give himself the most opportunities to find his mark.

But if Good wins under the current conditions (by eliminating Joker/Sniper/Ramirez), is that fair to Two-Face either? What if it's Gordon/Batman/Two-Face left as the last 3? Shouldn't Two-face get one last chance for revenge?

So what about this:

Proposed Victory Conditions A

Good wins with the elimination of Team Joker and Two-Face (if present).
Team Joker wins when their number match or exceed the number of Good Guys (Two-Face counts for Good).
Two-Face wins when his targets are eliminated (Batman/Gordon or Batman/Gordon/Joker).

Admittedly this makes it hard for the Good Guys to win. If people feel it is unfair to change that much at this point, I could be talked into going with

Proposed Victory Conditions B

Good wins with the elimination of Team Joker.
Team Joker wins when their number match or exceed the number of Good Guys (Two-Face counts for Good).
Two-Face wins when his targets are eliminated (Batman/Gordon or Batman/Gordon/Joker).

If you don't want to post in the thread, feel free to PM me with thoughts/suggestions/criticisms/game plans/bank account info.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:54 pm

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:09 pm

Twoface has very specific win conditions in addition to existing only under one specific condition, the death of rachel. In the event the bad guys are dead, the good guys win, unless the targets are dead at that point.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:30 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:(2) Is it OK for the "We know that one Evil is dead and that two remain, and the population is five, and the game suddenly ends with an evil victory" scenario to unfold? If that's not a problem, then it doesn't require prevention.

Something else for people to consider is that Evil could win at total population counts of 7, 5, or 3 (not just 5) if we don't change anything.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:45 pm

stessier wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:(2) Is it OK for the "We know that one Evil is dead and that two remain, and the population is five, and the game suddenly ends with an evil victory" scenario to unfold? If that's not a problem, then it doesn't require prevention.
Something else for people to consider is that Evil could win at total population counts of 7, 5, or 3 (not just 5) if we don't change anything.

Correct. But note-- when we have 3 evils in an ordinary game, and there's no third faction, then evil can win at populations of 6, 4, or 2. So the fact that there are three victory thresholds is totally normal.

The decision points are really just the two I mentioned: (1) is it ok for TF to have a slightly harder game, and (2) is it ok to have evil victory with an odd population count?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:48 pm

stessier wrote:So what about this:

Proposed Victory Conditions A
Good wins with the elimination of Team Joker and Two-Face (if present).

Team Joker wins when their number match or exceed the number of Good Guys (Two-Face counts for Good).

Two-Face wins when his targets are eliminated (Batman/Gordon or Batman/Gordon/Joker).
Admittedly this makes it hard for the Good Guys to win. If people feel it is unfair to change that much at this point, I could be talked into going with

Proposed Victory Conditions B
Good wins with the elimination of Team Joker.

Team Joker wins when their number match or exceed the number of Good Guys (Two-Face counts for Good).

Two-Face wins when his targets are eliminated (Batman/Gordon or Batman/Gordon/Joker).

If Good defeats Evil and Two Face is still on the warpath (which implies that either Batman or Gordon is alive), then is that truly a Good victory? Sounds more like a To Be Continued..... But then, maybe that's ok, too.

I'm OK with either set. I just want to know which set is operational.

Semaj · Post by **Semaj** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:00 pm

ok when you guys are done discussing rules and theory, let me know... you make my brane hurt

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:05 pm

random thought: The Good Guys could actually willingly lynch Rachel to activate Two Face against the Joker /random thought

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:06 pm

tru1cy wrote:random thought: The Good Guys could actually willingly lynch Rachel to activate Two Face against the Joker /random thought

and thus cost ourselves the only method we have to scan for little Ms corrupt? No, thank you. Horrible random thought.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:08 pm

Mr Bubbles wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Unagi wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:
Unagi wrote: Brendan

I welcome that up to the rest of you. I don't expect other people to pay attention to two other peoples interactions through out these games, but I find his reason to be backward.
I'm not really following why either of you is voting for the other. Other than you have no real reasons.
I'm voting for Brenan because he claimed (after following tru1cy's vote) that he would vote for me because he is normally inclined not to.

I think that his picking me as a Convert and the fact that we have that one BSG game that was a struggle between him and I, that those two things point to Brenden being insincere with the reasoning for voting for me.... and that I find to be the move of a wolf.
See, now I know you're a special - you misspelled my name twice in two consecutive sentences - once missing a D, and once with an e in place of an A, clearly signaling that you're DA Harvey Dent (FOR NOW.)
Is it weird that I noticed the same thing too? I was trying to figure out what it meant too.
I think at this rate we'll out everyone by day 2.

Well, I constantly am correcting the Brenden / Brendan error (

sorry ), but the missing "d" is just my finger not depressing the key enough.

I assume this is all a light joke from Brendan, (HA! I had to correct that one too! ) as I see no reason why "the DA" would want to leave bread-crumbs as to his identity, etc.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:52 pm

I think the rules as they were is fine. Twoface counts as neither and has a very specific win condition. We're crippled enough if we lose rachel regardless of how she dies because it means losing dent as well. Requiring more of us at that point is salt in the wound.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:39 pm

Its the mods choice.

Lagom Lite · Post by **Lagom Lite** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:00 pm

tru1cy wrote:random thought: The Good Guys could actually willingly lynch Rachel to activate Two Face against the Joker /random thought

Awful.

tru1cy

Are we done giving tru1cy a free pass in these games? He's acting out of character, am I the only one seeing it?

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:07 pm

I think I have enough comments. We'll go with this one:

Proposed Victory Conditions B

Good wins with the elimination of Team Joker.
Team Joker wins when their number match or exceed the number of Good Guys (Two-Face counts for Good).
Two-Face wins when his targets are eliminated (Batman/Gordon or Batman/Gordon/Joker).

-------

Edit: To make all this work, I'll also change it from

Harvey shows Citizen / Two Face shows Criminal

to

Harvey & Two-Face show Citizen

-------

I'll update the Rules post.

Thank you for your comments and patience. Please resume your Lynch Mob activities.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:45 pm

Lagom Lite wrote:
tru1cy wrote:random thought: The Good Guys could actually willingly lynch Rachel to activate Two Face against the Joker /random thought
Awful.

tru1cy

Are we done giving tru1cy a free pass in these games? He's acting out of character, am I the only one seeing it?

Yeah, its weird but I think I remember when tru1cy was a baddie in the past he going in wallflower mode. This is different buy might not mean he is an evil special. I'm giving him a free pass for now but I will jump on a bandwagon against him if there are enough votes.

OHHH! Or I could start my kill vote streak again! Stessier, didn't I get up to three in a row? Don't I hold the consecutive kill vote title?

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:48 pm

stessier wrote:new rules

two-face showing good, guess that makes sense since he counts for the good team, just sounds odd.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:52 pm

My vote is still on Brendan for no other reason than I don't have a good target to change to at the moment.

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:01 pm

Lassr wrote:My vote is still on Brendan for no other reason than I don't have a good target to change to at the moment.

I pull some Dan Brown symbology nonsense out, and that's not enough to sway you?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:44 pm

brendan

welcome back

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:25 pm

Chaosraven wrote: brendan

welcome back

Should I jump on that bandwagon since he stole my best friend's name (even if he spelled it differently)?

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:28 pm

Heh - I stole your best friend's name, only I spelled it differently? Might he spell it Brenan or, perhaps, Brenden?!?

Regardless, direct all complaints to my parents.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:58 pm

Brendan wrote:
Lassr wrote:My vote is still on Brendan for no other reason than I don't have a good target to change to at the moment.
I pull some Dan Brown symbology nonsense out, and that's not enough to sway you?

Are you talking about the fact that you blew Harvey Dent's cover? (Unagi's Brenan/Brenden errors)
Only a bag guy would expose a special like that!

<Disclaimer: No way would Harvey Dent leave a clue to his identity. Why would he? thus I do not believe Unagi is actually Harvey Dent due to that typo>

Brendan · Post by **Brendan** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:36 pm

Lassr wrote:Disclaimer: No way would Harvey Dent leave a clue to his identity. Why would he? thus I do not believe Unagi is actually Harvey Dent due to that typo

Well, duh.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:43 am

Brendan wrote:Heh - I stole your best friend's name, only I spelled it differently? Might he spell it Brenan or, perhaps, Brenden?!?

Regardless, direct all complaints to my parents.

Breandan, actually.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:49 am

Lassr wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Lassr wrote:My vote is still on Brendan for no other reason than I don't have a good target to change to at the moment.
I pull some Dan Brown symbology nonsense out, and that's not enough to sway you?
Are you talking about the fact that you blew Harvey Dent's cover? (Unagi's Brenan/Brenden errors)
Only a bag guy would expose a special like that!

<Disclaimer: No way would Harvey Dent leave a clue to his identity. Why would he? thus I do not believe Unagi is actually Harvey Dent due to that typo>

bag guy? Hmmmm. G for gordon, left off D. For Dent. Too many clues. Wait... TWO many? Aha lassr was dent, newcastle was rachel and now he's twoface! This game is too easy.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:06 am

Vote Count - Act 1

Scoop acc tru1cy (1)
Lagom acc Chaos (1)
Remus acc Semaj (1)
theohall acc Mr Bubbles (1)
Semaj acc Remus (1)
Lassr acc Brendan (1)
Lagom wd Chaos (0)
Scoop wd tru1cy (0)
Scoop acc Remus (2)
Bubbles acc Chaos (1)
tru1cy acc Unagi (1)
Semaj wd Remus (1)
Semaj acc Isgrimnur (1)
Brendan acc Unagi (2)
Unagi acc Brendan (2)
Isgrimnur acc Grund (1)
Lagom acc tru1cy (1)
Chaos acc Brendan (3)

Mob rule occurs at 7 votes.

Against Semaj (1): Remus
Against Mr Bubbles (1): theohall
Against Remus (1): Scoop20906
Against Brendan (3): Lassr, Unagi, Chaosraven
Against Chaosraven (1): Bubbles
Against Unagi (2): tru1cy, Brendan
Against Isgrimnur (1): Semaj
Against Grund (1): Isgrimnur
Against tru1cy (1): Lagom

No votes: Grundbegriff

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:59 am

I missed where Brendan split his vote on me and himself.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am

Unagi wrote:I missed where Brendan split his vote on me and himself.

The one against himself is Chaosraven's vote.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am

Unagi wrote:I missed where Brendan split his vote on me and himself.