Star Wars WW - Game Over - Rebel Victory

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:50 pm

You know how I'd play this game if I were a badguy?

I'd be watching, but I'd be awfully clammy. I wouldn't talk much at all. There are a lot of roles in the game, a lot of intersecting rules...and a lot of chances to make an inadvertent slip that punches up suspicion if you're the mistake-maker. No, I'd be rather laconic in my play...watching, but careful, looking to jump a moving bandwagon and push it, but without talking much about why my vote was placed.

And so let's also say that hypothetically the vote count ran up to N-1 on a player, and then backed off. That's an interesting game development, is it not? I mean, for Day 1, that bandwagon gives us our most concrete items for analyzation, right? And so we analyze. Who voted when...what does the vote order mean...how did the subject of the runup react? This is a game where information is vital and key to victory for the Empire. How do the Rebels win?

The Rebels win by withholding as much information as possible. That's usually how the badguys win, but especially important in this particular game with so many players with so many roles. Were I a badguy I'd be very wary of dropping something I shouldn't by mistake. I'd vote and then I'd watch carefully.

Thoughts?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:51 pm

Here are the ones I find especially interesting:

First, since when is coopasonic such a chatterbox?
Second, why is Remus West so far from the top?
Third, why is stessier nearly silent?
Fourth, and most strikingly: what happened to the new, talkative tru1cy?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:55 pm

triggercut wrote:You know how I'd play this game if I were a badguy?

I'd be watching, but I'd be awfully clammy. I wouldn't talk much at all.

I'd vote and then I'd watch carefully.

Thoughts?

First... noted!

Second, I don't believe you. I think that if you are Evil, you might very well do one thing while explaining, in your most innocent voice, how you'd actually do the contrary.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:02 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
bb2112 wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote: bb2112: Is there such a thing as a Rebel Grunt?
If I understand the question correctly, you are asking if there are Rebel roles out there that don't do anything? Something similar to a Guard but can participate on the Rebel forum? If this is your question, then no. Right now all the Rebels have special abilities. I am thinking for future iterations I will include some rebels without special abilities, but for this first game, what you see is what you get.
So then, we definitely have Yoda and we definitely have R2D2.

Scoop20906

...or I might accidentally on purpose feign a misunderstanding of the rules as they apply to the team I'm on to cover my Rebellious nature and seem oh so seemly and Empiricist.

So very out of character, that.

Were I an Empire with a shot, I'd have taken it at you there. Instead when you're alive and kicking on day 3 I'll have to hope that we've got the stones and motivation to vote you to your gallows. Don't think we have that just yet.

So.

My focus is elsewhere at the moment.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:09 pm

Hee hee hee, if I had a gun, I would shoot Grund to say either "better late than never" or "day late/dollar short...oops" depending on what the result was

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:11 pm

As an Empire, I've tried to post richly and frequently here. I figure I'll get lynched, outed, or killed overnight. I'm ok with that, and want as many of my posts on the record, as it were, so that my teammates may analyze why what happens to me happened.

Were I a Rebel, I'd want to leave no such trail of breadcrumbs.

And so, now I'll get meta.

Kenetickid was browsing this thread on three separate occasions yesterday for extended periods. He also posted a game/rules outline in the Games Queue thread.

Today he was online and browsing in this thread at least once for 10-15 minutes--so it wasn't a case of leaving the browser window open.

And yet...nothing. Nada.

When upthread I said my vote on KK was related to nothing, I lied. It was related totally to this activity. The only appearance in this thread since his cursory and unexplained Scoopvote was after I voted for him. We got a particularly non-convincing explanation of his Scoopvote ("Hey, I was just doing what everyone else was doing!") and a call to join his Rebel buddy Grund in asking about my motives for suspicion.

KK is as Rebel as they get, folks. The evidence is circumstantial, but evidence it is, and better than anything we've got on Scoop right now.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:15 pm

Well I know what's up with remus IRL, and LM went camping. As far as KK goes, I would be willing to test him simply to be able to talk about the game in the house. kenetickid

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:27 pm

triggercut wrote:And so, now I'll get meta.

If my vote weren't already on you, you'd get it for this.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:28 pm

I got myself confused.

withdraw newcastle

triggercut

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:29 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
triggercut wrote:And so, now I'll get meta.
If my vote weren't already on you, you'd get it for this.

Really?

Why do you hate the Empire so much, Isgrimnur?

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:30 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:I got myself confused.

withdraw newcastle

triggercut

For what it's worth, I'm not convinced that you're a Rebel; I think it equally likely you're an Empire making a mis-play.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:34 pm

Because the meta is an ultimate power gamer move, rather than one in the spirit of the game. And I loathe power gamer moves in games where I feel that they're not warranted. You want to do it in Munchkin? Fine. Don't do it in a game that's about playing a role.

I get that past personalities play in to these games, and that's what actually makes playing these games fun, trying to pick up on the machinations of people you "know", but making a move on someone because of thread presence without posting? Bad form, Peter, bad form!

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:34 pm

triggercut wrote: ...or I might accidentally on purpose feign a misunderstanding of the rules as they apply to the team I'm on to cover my Rebellious nature and seem oh so seemly and Empiricist.

So very out of character, that.

Wouldn't stooping to that be beneath my dignity?

Were I an Empire with a shot, I'd have taken it at you there. Instead when you're alive and kicking on day 3 I'll have to hope that we've got the stones and motivation to vote you to your gallows. Don't think we have that just yet.

If I'm alive any later than day 3, I'll cast the first stone.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:38 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:Because the meta is an ultimate power gamer move, rather than one in the spirit of the game. And I loathe power gamer moves in games where I feel that they're not warranted. You want to do it in Munchkin? Fine. Don't do it in a game that's about playing a role.

I get that past personalities play in to these games, and that's what actually makes playing these games fun, trying to pick up on the machinations of people you "know", but making a move on someone because of thread presence without posting? Bad form, Peter, bad form!

You must be this tall to ride this game.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:38 pm

triggercut wrote:And so, now I'll get meta.

Kenetickid was browsing this thread on three separate occasions yesterday for extended periods. He also posted a game/rules outline in the Games Queue thread.

Today he was online and browsing in this thread at least once for 10-15 minutes--so it wasn't a case of leaving the browser window open.

And yet...nothing. Nada.

When upthread I said my vote on KK was related to nothing, I lied. It was related totally to this activity. The only appearance in this thread since his cursory and unexplained Scoopvote was after I voted for him. We got a particularly non-convincing explanation of his Scoopvote ("Hey, I was just doing what everyone else was doing!") and a call to join his Rebel buddy Grund in asking about my motives for suspicion.

KK is as Rebel as they get, folks. The evidence is circumstantial, but evidence it is, and better than anything we've got on Scoop right now.

I think using that kind of meta is tacky and unsportsmanlike. You don't need it.

I also haven't seen any reason to think Kenetickid bears any more Rebel stench than anyone else in the game.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:48 pm

I must've stirred the hornet's nest on the Rebel forums. Sorry fellas!

FWIW, I consider LM stating off the bat "I'm out for a week" to be meta. I consider CR saying "I know what's up with Remus" to be meta.

Toothpaste's outta the tube in any event.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:51 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
triggercut wrote:And so, now I'll get meta.

Kenetickid was browsing this thread on three separate occasions yesterday for extended periods. He also posted a game/rules outline in the Games Queue thread.

Today he was online and browsing in this thread at least once for 10-15 minutes--so it wasn't a case of leaving the browser window open.

And yet...nothing. Nada.

When upthread I said my vote on KK was related to nothing, I lied. It was related totally to this activity. The only appearance in this thread since his cursory and unexplained Scoopvote was after I voted for him. We got a particularly non-convincing explanation of his Scoopvote ("Hey, I was just doing what everyone else was doing!") and a call to join his Rebel buddy Grund in asking about my motives for suspicion.

KK is as Rebel as they get, folks. The evidence is circumstantial, but evidence it is, and better than anything we've got on Scoop right now.
I think using that kind of meta is tacky and unsportsmanlike. You don't need it.

I also haven't seen any reason to think Kenetickid bears any more Rebel stench than anyone else in the game.

Newcastle did the same thing to me last game that Trig is doing to KK this game, and we all saw how that turned out.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:52 pm

I see how using browsing times could be taken as being in bad taste, essentially. Though I'm not sure how it's *that* much different from noting the voting times of the Scoop posts during the "is Yoda around?" analysis. The information is out there, and people are going to use it.

In any event, is a rule that people shouldn't use browsing time information?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:00 pm

Some people use it, some people frown upon it. Tru1cy pitched a hissy about the other game, and was in fact a bad guy. I guess the varying levels make it a gray area.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:05 pm

If I violated an unwritten rule, I apologize.

I saw a piece of information and noted it. I also marked it as significant in my mind's eye. I placed a vote based upon that information.

I cannot un-see, and cannot un-note, and didn't realize that I was crossing a line in sharing my reasoning behind my vote.

Again, sincere apologies.

Kenetickid · Post by **Kenetickid** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:07 pm

triggercut wrote:As an Empire, I've tried to post richly and frequently here. I figure I'll get lynched, outed, or killed overnight. I'm ok with that, and want as many of my posts on the record, as it were, so that my teammates may analyze why what happens to me happened.

Were I a Rebel, I'd want to leave no such trail of breadcrumbs.

And so, now I'll get meta.

Kenetickid was browsing this thread on three separate occasions yesterday for extended periods. He also posted a game/rules outline in the Games Queue thread.

Today he was online and browsing in this thread at least once for 10-15 minutes--so it wasn't a case of leaving the browser window open.

And yet...nothing. Nada.

When upthread I said my vote on KK was related to nothing, I lied. It was related totally to this activity. The only appearance in this thread since his cursory and unexplained Scoopvote was after I voted for him. We got a particularly non-convincing explanation of his Scoopvote ("Hey, I was just doing what everyone else was doing!") and a call to join his Rebel buddy Grund in asking about my motives for suspicion.

KK is as Rebel as they get, folks. The evidence is circumstantial, but evidence it is, and better than anything we've got on Scoop right now.

I browse because I am trying to keep abreast of the current conversations so that I am up to date. I respond and post when I feel that I have something to contribute that might actually be worth saying. I will admit that CR's vote for me on the grounds of hey atleast when one of us is dead we can talk about it without spoiling the game itself. On that note Scoop can have the pass he is so desperatly looking for.....

Chaosraven

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:10 pm

El Guapo wrote:is a rule that people shouldn't use browsing time information?

No. Just a longstanding disagreement. But we're tolerant of all views on the matter.

Kenetickid · Post by **Kenetickid** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:11 pm

triggercut wrote:If I violated an unwritten rule, I apologize.

I saw a piece of information and noted it. I also marked it as significant in my mind's eye. I placed a vote based upon that information.

I cannot un-see, and cannot un-note, and didn't realize that I was crossing a line in sharing my reasoning behind my vote.

Again, sincere apologies.

It doesn't bother me trig, but it seems that it might bother others. I mean honestly if I am gonna get dinged for reading and re-reading so be it, time on browsing to me can be indicative of someone leaving a window open, reading and analyzing, or just plain old not logging out.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:12 pm

People log out?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:14 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:First, since when is coopasonic such a chatterbox?
Second, why is Remus West so far from the top?
Third, why is stessier nearly silent?
Fourth, and most strikingly: what happened to the new, talkative tru1cy?

I'm going to refrain from commenting in excess about phenomena that might reflect any of a variety of underlying causes.

I like tru1cy as Rebel. In view of the past four or five games, this is extremely anomalous. He's been fairly active lately, whether good or evil. Clamming up isn't out of old-tru1cy character, but it's quite removed from new-tru1cy character.

I recommend you join me in doing this: tru1cy

I think we have better than random odds of starting off on the right foot here.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:52 am

I'm feeling a bit like Semaj this morning...
I wonder how long this will take to go away.

I should have been opening interesting posts in new windows as I've totally spaced by the time I got to the end.

As to the meta games, I see them as tools, except as to where they have been deemed as broken, such as the editing of posts. If any thing ends up in bad form then I think that should be spelled out because I'm not seeing it. This goes up to and including calling people out on being away from the Internet. If you want(ed) to lynch my for being out for a week, well that's life (and death).

As to the Scoop not being killed by n-1 thing, which is the only thing that strikes me as all the memorable strategic conversation, I'm not sure there was enough time to get him killed by n-1. I'm also not a fan of pulling people off the flagpole unless there is a reason.

For now:

scoop

If scoop is empire

They didn't have time.
They didn't think.
They're trying to set something (someone) up. Either a different lynch target or cast suspicions on someone as being Yoda.
Yoda is not in the game.
They want to save Yoda's reveal for later (days), thinking that popping up that it will be more meaningful in "gotcha" sort of way.

If scoop is rebel

They don't want him to die.

Or it's something else I'm not seeing. I honestly hope it's Yoda is not in the game. It's a huge power for the rebels, perhaps the largest, essentially moving their clock forward by one. When combined with R2 it really means the game could be mostly over after a day or two, barring good imperial assassinations.

Personally, I'm kinda bummed that Vader, Rukh, or Greedo (I think that's all of them) didn't shoot announce and shoot scoop (unless Vader, Rukh, or Greedo had a vote on them). Especially, Greedo. There seemed to be plenty enough time to find another lynch target and appears we may still need one. Though at the same time I'm hoping they can also be used to in more certain lights.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:57 am

Grundbegriff wrote:First, since when is coopasonic such a chatterbox?

I've only played one other game, TRON. IT looks like you didn't participate in that one. If you repeated your post count analysis there I expect you would find me in the top 4 posters at least.

As far as trig's analysis, if you don't want to get caught browsing, relog invisible.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:10 pm

Awfully quiet with the deadline rapidly approaching on Wednesday.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:20 pm

theohall wrote:Awfully quiet with the deadline rapidly approaching on Wednesday.

On a related note, I saw theohall was browsing the forum... and then this post appeared! Interesting.

More seriously, I'm looking at all the offered targets:

Scoop - Unagi's choice and original bandwagon
Kenetickid - trig's meta-target w/ CRs support
tru1cy - grund's target for silence

It seems like Scoop would be the easiest to get the votes on, which is a factor with 11/21 required. I think we are at 7 on scoop, though I may have missed a change/withdraw.

Unagi, Stessier, Lassr, Pr0ner, Remus West, El Guapo, LordMortis

vs 3 on tru1cy and 1? on kenetic

I think I could go with Scoop or tru1cy at this point.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:30 pm

The fact that we can't get a bandwagon going on anyone *except* Scoop tells me that he's Empire to the soles of his Stormtrooper Boots.

Also, it's nice to have Yoda back from his weeklong absence!

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:32 pm

Well I did a re-read, and I am no further than my first guess, which was really just so I could use the word Asshat again. That word still make me giggle for some reason.

Withdraw Unagi

So let's take a look. Post counts at this point are a red herring in my book. The quiet ones might be on team evil, but they could be good specials hiding out. So with a few weekends and a holiday weekend in the mix I am really reluctant to use that as my only base point.

There does not seem to be a ton of real reasons to run Scoop up, but all these secret votes just scare me, so I think we should follow the advice from someone earlier about being careful, as we might get close with someone, and the rebels can just throw him over without us having a chance to hear him claim if he is anything.

But we have two more days to come to a consensus.. I guess Scoop is a good a vote as any right now, but I have learned from my last games that sometimes those first trains are not the ones to get on board with..

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:12 pm

triggercut wrote:The fact that we can't get a bandwagon going on anyone *except* Scoop tells me that he's Empire to the soles of his Stormtrooper Boots.

Also, it's nice to have Yoda back from his weeklong absence!

If you think he's Yoda, why aren't you voting for him?

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:36 pm

pr0ner wrote:
triggercut wrote:The fact that we can't get a bandwagon going on anyone *except* Scoop tells me that he's Empire to the soles of his Stormtrooper Boots.

Also, it's nice to have Yoda back from his weeklong absence!
If you think he's Yoda, why aren't you voting for him?

I can only vote for one Rebel per day. If I can get bb to let me vote for all of them, I'm in!

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:54 pm

triggercut wrote:The fact that we can't get a bandwagon going on anyone *except* Scoop tells me that he's Empire to the soles of his Stormtrooper Boots.

Also, it's nice to have Yoda back from his weeklong absence!

Cryptic posts that you vaguely understand - it would be oddly appropriate to have LM as Yoda.

This is a fair point. I suspect, though, that the rebels wouldn't want to have more than a couple people on the bandwagon formation, right? I think the danger otherwise is that if you have four people (say) pushing a bandwagon initially, and the target comes up imperial (as any rebel-driven bandwagon would), that pushes suspicion to those who started it. That would risk exposing too many rebels too soon, I think. And we do have other people with 2 or 3 votes, so those could be possible rebel attempts at a bandwagon

I'm willing to move off Scoop, but I'm not sure who I see as a better target.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:58 pm

triggercut wrote:
pr0ner wrote:
triggercut wrote:The fact that we can't get a bandwagon going on anyone *except* Scoop tells me that he's Empire to the soles of his Stormtrooper Boots.

Also, it's nice to have Yoda back from his weeklong absence!
If you think he's Yoda, why aren't you voting for him?
I can only vote for one Rebel per day. If I can get bb to let me vote for all of them, I'm in!

That's some weak sauce, metagamer.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:00 pm

triggercut wrote:
pr0ner wrote:
triggercut wrote:The fact that we can't get a bandwagon going on anyone *except* Scoop tells me that he's Empire to the soles of his Stormtrooper Boots.

Also, it's nice to have Yoda back from his weeklong absence!
If you think he's Yoda, why aren't you voting for him?
I can only vote for one Rebel per day.

Really?

withdraw tru1cy

coopasonic

withdraw coopasonic

tru1cy

Sure seemed easy to vote for more than one rebel to me.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:37 pm

Semaj · Post by **Semaj** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:48 pm

withdraw bubbles

accuse scoop

Semaj · Post by **Semaj** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:07 pm

unless I missed something, thats n-2...

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:14 pm

Semaj wrote:unless I missed something, thats n-2...

n-3 because Kenetickid moved his vote off Scoop, replaced by LM.

Unagi, Stessier, Lassr, Pr0ner, Remus West, El Guapo, LordMortis, Semaj