Star Wars WW - Game Over - Rebel Victory

[triggercut]

Leaving Vader out of a post on July 6: Lack of knowledge of all the functions of a specific role.

Forgetting to take my own role into account when talking about vote train cases (a role I will point out that was taken into account on July 6th and in all subsequent related posts, including one that very day): Forgetting to obfuscate and prevaricate my role in the Empire

Two different cases, Remus.

I'm sorry you can't see it.

[Remus West]

Leaving Vader out of a post

Forgetting to take [Dooku] into account

Two different cases, Remus.

Oh, yes, totally different.

I'm sorry you can't see it.

[triggercut]

Still wrong, huh?

[Remus West]

Still wrong, huh?

No, you are just so locked into your own perception that you fail to view anything from another. I can see what you are saying. I have reiterated it. You completely fail to comprehend what I am saying. Regardless of how it is laid out for you. The two mistakes were fundamentally the same. You left a role out of a post in which you were speaking to that role's abilities. You holding one of the forgotten roles is immaterial.

[triggercut]

Still wrong, huh?

No, you are just so locked into your own perception that you fail to view anything from another. I can see what you are saying. I have reiterated it. You completely fail to comprehend what I am saying. Regardless of how it is laid out for you. The two mistakes were fundamentally the same. You left a role out of a post in which you were speaking to that role's abilities. You holding one of the forgotten roles is immaterial.

I fully comprehend what you're saying.

And you're wrong.

Still.

[RMC]

Alright.. I have been quiet and I was on the kill of CR. Both bad things that can help to get me lynched. My style of play has been evolving, but I always seem to pick the wrong things to do on day 1, and am a suspect for the rest of these types of games.

<shrug> What can I say. I voted Unagi simply because last game he was the final vote to lynch me. I left that vote, when I really was not tracking anyone, and then Trig pointed out the slip by CR, and I followed that logic. It seemed solid, and the entire scoop thing seemed like a train on day 1 that was just because there was no one else. I was wrong, and should have switched to him, but I was at work for most of that weirdness that happened. For what it is worth, I would have taken my vote off CR once he claimed special if I had been online.

So trig has pointed out that I did not join the scoop train but only joined the CR train. I joined the train because of his observations, and this makes me a member of team rebel? I will not belabor the point, but I tend to pick a target and stay there until someone offers a better target. In this case, I was not online to move my vote, I apologize for that.

So what should we do? I think we should take out the known rebel this day cycle. The real question is how do we do it? Do we shoot/choke him, or just lynch him?

I need to really read through and come up with my top three, which I will try to do this weekend.

[Lassr]

[El Guapo]

Anywho, let's take a step back. First, I think there's a general inclination to use a shot / choke / etc. today. Second, there's a general consensus (unsurprising) that Scoop dies today one way or the other (unless he's Lando and gets lynched, I suppose). So let's figure out who the other person is that we'd like to lynch/shoot, and then figure out who to shoot / who to lynch.

Here's the vote total at close:

Unagi 1 <----------------- Tru1cy
Tru1cy 1 <---------------- Grundbegriff
Semaj 1 <----------------- Mr Bubbles
Scoop20906 3 <---------- Pr0ner, Semaj, Chaosraven
Triggercut 2 <----------- Isgrimnur, Remus West
Chaosraven 8 <---------- Kenetickid, RMC, Newcastle, Scoop20906, El Guapo, Coopasonic, Theohall, Lord Mortis, [Triggercut]
Mr. Bubbles 1 <---------- Unagi

With the KK train developing shortly thereafter (though too late). So, we have two categories of people we can pick from:

(1) The quiet ones - tru1cy, Grund, Bubbles, KK, RMC, maybe Semaj. (Shocks me to put Grund on the quiet list, but there you go). Semaj I'm knocking off right away - stayed on Scoop, hasn't said anything particularly suspicious. Tru1cy seems suspicious to me - at the very least pugnaciously unhelpful.

(2) The chaosraven ones - i.e those on the CR train. There must be rebels in here, since rebels of course want to get imperials lynched. (I added Trig on there even though he dropped shortly before the close of voting, since he drove the train and all). LM, Theohall, and Newcastle all seem reasonable and so imperial to me - can't rule out them being rebels, but I wouldn't want to lynch them yet. Coopasonic I go back and forth on - but him putting Scoop at n-1 makes me lean imperial (though I can't rule out stone cold ballsy rebel).

That leaves KK, RMC, and Trig from the chaosraven train - I could be persuaded to vote for one of these three. The CR train seemed logical (though misguided) at the time, so in some sense I have a hard time damning trig for it...but it's not an unreasonable basis to lynch the driver.

In any event, since KK and RMC overlap in both of the suspicious pools, I'd like to hear more from them. And hey, refreshing the thread before posting this, here's RMC. So let's hear it for  Kinectikid 
 

[El Guapo]

Also, let me throw out a wild theory: could Triggercut be R2? The timing would make a lot of sense: Chaosraven comes out as emperor at 9 votes (n-2). Triggercut withdraws, but then R2 steps in and casts his three votes *within the next five to ten minutes* before I withdraw. Trig knows he can withdraw to look good and kill the emperor with his three votes (and there's no need to not withdraw since it doesn't matter whether CR is at 11 or 12 votes). Just a thought (and that would also make Scoop not R2, which effects the shot analysis).

[Scoop20906]

I say we let him go.

[triggercut]

I say we let him go.

Excellent.

[triggercut]

Also, let me throw out a wild theory: could Triggercut be R2? The timing would make a lot of sense: Chaosraven comes out as emperor at 9 votes (n-2). Triggercut withdraws, but then R2 steps in and casts his three votes *within the next five to ten minutes* before I withdraw. Trig knows he can withdraw to look good and kill the emperor with his three votes (and there's no need to not withdraw since it doesn't matter whether CR is at 11 or 12 votes). Just a thought (and that would also make Scoop not R2, which effects the shot analysis).

I am neither R2 or a Rebel, but I'm kinda in awe of that play (retract vote from 9 and then overvote 3). Diabolical!

[theohall]

Home for a few minutes, so....

Not so odd, just an oversight. That early in the game I'd missed Vader's kill option and thought he was weirdly underpowered being only able to scan for Luke.

Yet that same mechanic is supposed to be taken as your big give away towards being Dooku? You made many mistakes on day 1. Why would anyone have figured that one of them pointed to your role?

I'm interested in hearing from the guy who claimed to have spotted it yesterday when talking about your "slip". I believe it was theohall.

I thought he was hinting at a protector role with the following - so one could have read multiple Imperial roles into his posts based on what he is saying today. I didn't see the Dooku/Vader things. Bold, italics, and underline are mine.

I've made wrong interpretations of plays in this game quite a bit. You'd be about the fifth person to call me a moron today. Tell me WHY I'm a moron and what key role you play for the Empire and I'll go get on another train posthaste and we can hopefully marshal some protection for you in the short-term and see how it goes from there and I'll happily wear the goat horns the rest of the way

He does have an out in terms of leaving the Vader role out. He was replying to Grundbegriff here:

Were I an Empire with a shot, I'd have taken it at you there. Instead when you're alive and kicking on day 3 I'll have to hope that we've got the stones and motivation to vote you to your gallows. Don't think we have that just yet.

So.

My focus is elsewhere at the moment.

[Kenetickid]

Ok so I deffinatley have to agree that we need to lunch scoop today due to the spoofing of emperor. As far as a shot going off I would tend to lean towards El Guapo.

To me El Guapo seems to be randomly pointing out people and incidents that will draw attention away from himself.

I left my vote on CR when the train on Scoop was going no where. I would have pulled my vote off after the Scoop claim/ CR counter, but (1 comp and CR was actually on it posting when he lynch post came up)

I can guarentee (for as much as that matters) that killing me me either by lynch or shot will make absolutely no headway towards finding rebels.

TC has claimed Dooku. My only issue with that is about the same as everyone else's, there is no concrete way to prove that role since it is to easily spoofed by yoda.

Since scoop is our know rebel and outed CR with his claim, what would stop another rebel from trying the same fast trick. Sorry TC, but I am a bit dis-inclined to aquece to your claim.

Now with that said since 2 votes have already been thrown  Scoop 
 
.

[Isgrimnur]

Ok so I deffinatley have to agree that we need to lunch scoop today due to the spoofing of emperor.

So you're a rebel and taking him out to TGI Friday's in celebration of his move?

[triggercut]

Can someone less-given to binary thinking explain to me what the value of placing votes on a player who has now ADMITTED to being Rebel is?

For the Empire on of our main tools with which to ferret out Rebels is to analyze votes, vote patterns, and groupings when these votes are placed on a player of indeterminate faction.

Placing votes on a player who is already known to be a badguy--and hence already given up for dead by his teammates--tells us nothing.

Right? Am I missing something here? Is there something the Empire gains by this kabuki performance that I'm not catching on to?

And if there indeed is nothing for the Empire to gain by analyzing a vote pattern on a condemned player of admitted guilt, why are three people--people who have already had their day one votes draw varying levels of suspicion, voting this way?

tru1cy, Isgrimnur, Kenetickid------------->Scoop (3)

The heck is this? The Rebels wouldn't just arrange themselves in a neat line for us, would they?

[theohall]

Is triggercut Count Dooku? I don't know. It's a role likely easily fakeable if Yoda is in play. Only a coroner scan will tell for sure, if we have Tarkin in play, but that's very much a Witch test. "Oh, he drowned? Then he was innocent. So Sorry."

Really? If I'm killed, I'll come back Empire. You think I would be Empire and *spoofing* a role?

On death my faction reveal will carry the truth of my role.

That is essentially what he means by a "Witch" test. For us to know the truth about your claim, you would have to die.

There is one other possibility to prove you aren't Yoda and are Count Dooku, but it won't help us find rebels other than Scoop. If you send your PM to lynch Scoop early, as soon as he hits N-1 he would die, essentially proving your Count Dooku claim. That's as long as Yoda isn't allowed to put votes on rebel players. Better ask, because I don't see it being precluded in the rules.

bb2112: Can Yoda place his secret vote on a fellow rebel??

The problem with that plan, we don't find other rebels. It would be better to shoot Scoop and force actions from the group to out other rebels, unless I am missing something.

[triggercut]

Is triggercut Count Dooku? I don't know. It's a role likely easily fakeable if Yoda is in play. Only a coroner scan will tell for sure, if we have Tarkin in play, but that's very much a Witch test. "Oh, he drowned? Then he was innocent. So Sorry."

Really? If I'm killed, I'll come back Empire. You think I would be Empire and *spoofing* a role?

On death my faction reveal will carry the truth of my role.

That is essentially what he means by a "Witch" test. For us to know the truth about your claim, you would have to die.

There is one other possibility to prove you aren't Yoda and are Count Dooku, but it won't help us find rebels other than Scoop. If you send your PM to lynch Scoop early, as soon as he hits N-1 he would die, essentially proving your Count Dooku claim. That's as long as Yoda isn't allowed to put votes on rebel players. Better ask, because I don't see it being precluded in the rules.

bb2112: Can Yoda place his secret vote on a fellow rebel??

The problem with that plan, we don't find other rebels. It would be better to shoot Scoop and force actions from the group to out other rebels, unless I am missing something.

I was referring to Isgrimnur saying that no one could be certain about my role without the report of an autopsy.

Which is silly.

When I die and come back Empire, you'll all know with some reasonable certainty that I was also Count Dooku, as claimed. There's no reason for an Empire player to spoof the role of another Empire player.

[triggercut]

Is triggercut Count Dooku? I don't know. It's a role likely easily fakeable if Yoda is in play. Only a coroner scan will tell for sure, if we have Tarkin in play, but that's very much a Witch test. "Oh, he drowned? Then he was innocent. So Sorry."

Really? If I'm killed, I'll come back Empire. You think I would be Empire and *spoofing* a role?

On death my faction reveal will carry the truth of my role.

That is essentially what he means by a "Witch" test. For us to know the truth about your claim, you would have to die.

There is one other possibility to prove you aren't Yoda and are Count Dooku, but it won't help us find rebels other than Scoop. If you send your PM to lynch Scoop early, as soon as he hits N-1 he would die, essentially proving your Count Dooku claim. That's as long as Yoda isn't allowed to put votes on rebel players. Better ask, because I don't see it being precluded in the rules.

bb2112: Can Yoda place his secret vote on a fellow rebel??

The problem with that plan, we don't find other rebels. It would be better to shoot Scoop and force actions from the group to out other rebels, unless I am missing something.

I was referring to Isgrimnur saying that no one could be certain about my role without the report of an autopsy.

Which is silly.

When I die and come back Empire, you'll all know with some reasonable certainty that I was also Count Dooku, as claimed. There's no reason for an Empire player to spoof the role of another Empire player.

Or should say, no reason for a player in my position to spoof the role of another Empire player if that role is as low on the food chain as Count Dooku (perhaps there's a convoluted scenario where one Empire spoofing the Emperor is a good play, but even then it would almost require the Emperor to have knowledge of that play.)

[Kenetickid]

Ok so I deffinatley have to agree that we need to lunch scoop today due to the spoofing of emperor.

So you're a rebel and taking him out to TGI Friday's in celebration of his move?

GGrr! obvious typo. Meant lynch.

[Remus West]

that role is as low on the food chain as Count Dooku

See, this is one of the major hurdles I have in trusting your claim. You were SOOOO certain you had given your role away and also certain that they would target you as a result of having done so. Yet here you admit that your role is close to if not the very bottom of the pile of powers they would be worried about. That being the case why would you think they would want to kill you rather than try to target a more high priority special?

I admit, I really do not think we should shoot you today unless there is a counter claim - in which case you should simply paint a bulls-eye on your forehead and close your eyes (I realize this comes across as wishy-washy but I'm like that and I wanted to see how folks reacted to the idea of shooting you even after you made a claim). I do think though that given how much doubt is held regarding you that you should hold off pushing votes tomorrow (go ahead and vote Scoop today with both votes as that vote is going to tell us jack and squat) so that we can get a read on others without having your mud in the water. By all means, participate in them so we can see who you are willing to vote for long run but keep your distance from the arguments.

[triggercut]

that role is as low on the food chain as Count Dooku

By all means, participate in them so we can see who you are willing to vote for long run but keep your distance from the arguments.

Someone needs a nap!

[bb2112]

bb2112: Can Yoda place his secret vote on a fellow rebel??

Rules Update

Vader's choke does reveal his identity.

Greedo's shot does reveal his identity.

Yoda's secret vote cannot be placed on a Rebel.

[El Guapo]

Ok so I deffinatley have to agree that we need to lunch scoop today due to the spoofing of emperor. As far as a shot going off I would tend to lean towards El Guapo.

To me El Guapo seems to be randomly pointing out people and incidents that will draw attention away from himself.

I left my vote on CR when the train on Scoop was going no where. I would have pulled my vote off after the Scoop claim/ CR counter, but (1 comp and CR was actually on it posting when he lynch post came up)

I can guarentee (for as much as that matters) that killing me me either by lynch or shot will make absolutely no headway towards finding rebels.

TC has claimed Dooku. My only issue with that is about the same as everyone else's, there is no concrete way to prove that role since it is to easily spoofed by yoda.

Since scoop is our know rebel and outed CR with his claim, what would stop another rebel from trying the same fast trick. Sorry TC, but I am a bit dis-inclined to aquece to your claim.

Now with that said since 2 votes have already been thrown  Scoop 
 
.

Hey! Analysis from KK - good to see. Your point about me is reasonable enough. But I'd actually argue that "pointing out people and incidents" cuts the other way. Since I'm imperial I don't know who my teammates (or the rebels) are. So I point out what I see to figure out who is who, and to (hopefully) help the other imperials figure out who is who. Rebels, by contrast, have the luxury of knowing who their teammates are, so can pick one or two people to drive towards the gallows. Also, "pointing out people and incidents' is typically how this game works, though I guess I am a bit of a n00b.

[El Guapo]

So Remus, I'm curious - if you don't think that we should kill Trig today, is there anyone that you are leaning towards killing? Mainly I'm wondering because I think you're the least likely person in the game at this point to be a rebel, so I'm interested in your analysis.

[Remus West]

So Remus, I'm curious - if you don't think that we should kill Trig today, is there anyone that you are leaning towards killing? Mainly I'm wondering because I think you're the least likely person in the game at this point to be a rebel, so I'm interested in your analysis.

Obviously today I think we should kill Scoop. With the lynch. If you are asking about a shot I think we wait. With the rules update that bb2112 just posted we actually can prove Count Dooku so we have a task for triggercut to do. triggercut needs to place his hidden vote on Scoop as soon as he sees this so that the voting closes when we appear to be one short of the majority. If he can not prove himself then we shoot him before finishing the lynch - which also means that his open vote needs to be one of the ones creating the n-1 situation so that he can not cast the final vote himself and thus cost us a day. If he does prove himself then we get to have a known.

As for folks I trust/don't trust....well, honestly, I don't trust any of you. To many folks seem to be trying to fly under the radar. I feel like tru1cy is playing his old "I don't have a role so I'm going to clam up" game. Makes me want to shoot him simply because the engaged and talkative tru1cy we have seen more recently was more fun and more helpful. A little negative reinforcement towards the silent can't hurt. Except even if we have Vader, Greedo, Mara Jade, and Ruhk we couldn't kill all the silent ones this game.

The one big benefit I saw to shooting Scoop would be the vote arguing that would come from today. Given that we can prove triggercut on the vote I do not even see doing that. Without the arguments as to who to lynch there really is not much to go on. I haven't looked back at the Scoop trains very closely yet (Mom got out of the hospital today ) but I'll try to get to that soon which will undoubtedly give me some impressions. Newcastle did not look good during the play though as I felt like he really tried to gently defuse the vote against Scoop. I won't stand by that before a reread though.

[triggercut]

Secret vote is placed.

[triggercut]

Secret vote is placed.

On scoop, it should be said.

[El Guapo]

That's a pretty good plan on Remus' part.

So...  Withdraw Kinectikid

Scoop 
 

[Remus West]

Secret vote is placed.

On scoop, it should be said.

Open vote too if you please. You need to be a part of the run-up to n-1.

[El Guapo]

Oh, and Trig - you need to cast your *public* vote for Scoop as well. Otherwise if you're not Dooku when we hit n-1 (and the vote didn't close), you could then cast your public vote for Scoop and cost us a day.

[coopasonic]

If trig is proven empire, then he just dies in the night lynch to continue the confusion. Yay us? /eeyore

 Scoop 
 

[Qantaga]

That's a pretty good plan on Remus' part.

Agreed. Scoop dies and we get a proven trig, either Rebel or Imperial.

I'll vote Scoop, but only after trig accusess/votes Scoop formally in the thread.

[Remus West]

Everyone needs to pull their votes away from Scoop until triggercut casts his public vote there.

[El Guapo]

 Withdraw Scoop 
 
.

I think he's innocent! Framed, I tells ya.

[Lassr]

triggercut needs to place his vote. then I will place mine on Scoop

[Lassr]

wow that was a lot of activity over the past few minutes while I was reading then posting. It's Sat night, don't you people have lives?

[triggercut]

 Scoop 
 


(If I actually waited to N-1 to cast a public vote against Scoop, that would kinda give you a second Rebel for the "cost" of a day, would it not? However, I am what I've said I am. My vote on Scoop is cast and won't be moved.)

[Lassr]

 Scoop 
 

[Qantaga]

 Scoop