2012 Elections

[Arcanis]

2 things. 1 if she isn't credible it means we can't really trust her. So Yes it is possible that Cain did these things but it is just as possible he didn't (with her) and this is just a hatchet job. 2 If he did target women who weren't credible then I want him as president since he can apparently see the future. He allegedly harassed her in 99 and all of the reports of things hurting her credibility happened after that.

I had high hopes for Cain as a nominee and if he did these things he should be flogged IMO. I have no expectations of actual journalism from the media (all of them) so until they can provide something more than allegations against him that is credible then I don't really care what they have to say.

Benefit of the doubt and all that. But:

1) It's not like every successful executive goes around dogged by sexual harassment charges from multiple accusers. One case could be an unfortunate misunderstanding, but several cases make you go Hmmm.

2) While we may never know what actually transpired between Cain and his accusers, we can take the measure of Cain as a leader by watching how he handles this eruption. So far he's been pretty terrible.

3) Cain wants to spin this as Herman vs. the Big Bad Media. Since even Cain admits that the accusations and settlements did happen, in what universe would these revelations not be news? When the whole basis of his candidacy is his competence as a business executive, anything that reflects on that competence is going to get scrutiny.

Cain was an idiot to put himself up for nomination. You can bet that Bill Clinton didn't enter the arena expecting never to have to deal with the skeletons in his closet.

I'm not really defending him, i'm pretty sure he did it due to how he has responded, but I also want the media to do their jobs and tell us what happened rather than fling out the accusations. It just stinks of half-assed work because they don't want to do the work to dig deeper and reveal the truth. I give it a 50/50 chance of it being fear of finding it to be nothing of consequence or sloth. It just annoyed me that VR suggested that he would target women with credibility issues when the quote in his own post showed all of the credibility issues came about after the alleged incident between her and Cain.

[The Meal]

Ron Paul missed a golden opportunity too. Instead of helpfully suggesting the EPA, he could have supplied the DoD.

[El Guapo]

2 things. 1 if she isn't credible it means we can't really trust her. So Yes it is possible that Cain did these things but it is just as possible he didn't (with her) and this is just a hatchet job. 2 If he did target women who weren't credible then I want him as president since he can apparently see the future. He allegedly harassed her in 99 and all of the reports of things hurting her credibility happened after that.

I had high hopes for Cain as a nominee and if he did these things he should be flogged IMO. I have no expectations of actual journalism from the media (all of them) so until they can provide something more than allegations against him that is credible then I don't really care what they have to say.

Benefit of the doubt and all that. But:

1) It's not like every successful executive goes around dogged by sexual harassment charges from multiple accusers. One case could be an unfortunate misunderstanding, but several cases make you go Hmmm.

2) While we may never know what actually transpired between Cain and his accusers, we can take the measure of Cain as a leader by watching how he handles this eruption. So far he's been pretty terrible.

3) Cain wants to spin this as Herman vs. the Big Bad Media. Since even Cain admits that the accusations and settlements did happen, in what universe would these revelations not be news? When the whole basis of his candidacy is his competence as a business executive, anything that reflects on that competence is going to get scrutiny.

Cain was an idiot to put himself up for nomination. You can bet that Bill Clinton didn't enter the arena expecting never to have to deal with the skeletons in his closet.

I'm not really defending him, i'm pretty sure he did it due to how he has responded, but I also want the media to do their jobs and tell us what happened rather than fling out the accusations. It just stinks of half-assed work because they don't want to do the work to dig deeper and reveal the truth. I give it a 50/50 chance of it being fear of finding it to be nothing of consequence or sloth. It just annoyed me that VR suggested that he would target women with credibility issues when the quote in his own post showed all of the credibility issues came about after the alleged incident between her and Cain.

Sure, but when the accusations come out then they're news *because* they're credible-seeming allegations. They can't get to the bottom of the accusations that day, all they can do then is report them and report Cain's response. The media is continuing to dig into the story (hence the stories about credibility issues with one of the accusers), and probably at some point there will be an extensive semi-definitive piece or two getting to the details in depth.

Also even then, after digging deeper, it will never be simply a matter of reporting "the truth." These events are old, and the primary evidence (as I understand it) is testimony. It's not like the end result is CSI stuff where we'll know that X is definitely true and Y is definitely false.

So as a whole, I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect "the media" to do better. Yeah particular outlets here and there are going to be reckless and/or shady, but as a group I don't know what else could be done.

[silverjon]

So as a whole, I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect "the media" to do better. Yeah particular outlets here and there are going to be reckless and/or shady, but as a group I don't know what else could be done.

Make the accusers release the exact details of what they're alleging to have happened, possibly by locking them up and beating it out of them.

The public demands it.

[Arcanis]

I'm saying there is documentation on it somewhere and it is a journalist's job to find it. I think many of them would rather keep sensationalizing the vague accusations because people's imaginations run wild and that gets more ratings. All of this ignoring any political bias a reporter may have. I've already heard a bunch of meaningless drivel over this from the likes of NBC and Limbaugh, most of which was offensive either in their use of stereo typing or them insulting my intelligence with their blatant pandering. I want to know what he was actually accused of not some sanitized statement that obscures reality. I want an idea of the women's credibility, I don't even really want to know their names since that puts them in an uncomfortable light. That is what I expect from "the media", not this BS political theater we always get.

[Isgrimnur]

Never forget that the media is there to sell your eyeballs to the advertisers, nothing else. If they can draw it out to keep you watching every night for a week, they will. Why do you think they have those 3-part specials rather than filming a documentary?

[silverjon]

I'm saying there is documentation on it somewhere and it is a journalist's job to find it.

I am actually not ok with the idea of media personnel having full access to police and court records to release to the public willy-nilly, which is basically what you're saying they should be doing here.

[Arcanis]

I'm saying there is documentation on it somewhere and it is a journalist's job to find it.

I am actually not ok with the idea of media personnel having full access to police and court records to release to the public willy-nilly, which is basically what you're saying they should be doing here.

No that is not at all what i'm saying. There were investigations by the restaurant association and those are the papers I think reporters should be going after. The only police and court reports they should have access to are those that are public record.

[silverjon]

Granted, this was all settled privately, so you're right about whose records would be involved.

It's still complicated. The details of sexual harassment complaints can be sensitive to the victim, and many may be less inclined to try to do something about it because they don't want to run the risk of "everyone" knowing what happened to them, if there's no guarantee that the details of their complaint are secure.

[El Guapo]

I'm saying there is documentation on it somewhere and it is a journalist's job to find it. I think many of them would rather keep sensationalizing the vague accusations because people's imaginations run wild and that gets more ratings. All of this ignoring any political bias a reporter may have. I've already heard a bunch of meaningless drivel over this from the likes of NBC and Limbaugh, most of which was offensive either in their use of stereo typing or them insulting my intelligence with their blatant pandering. I want to know what he was actually accused of not some sanitized statement that obscures reality. I want an idea of the women's credibility, I don't even really want to know their names since that puts them in an uncomfortable light. That is what I expect from "the media", not this BS political theater we always get.

Sure. But just bear in mind that 90% of everything is crap. It's like, the bulk of movies are drivel pandering to the lowest common denominator. That's not going to be all that different for the media. The bulk of it is going to be a mix of poorly done, sensationalistic pablum. But the quality reporting is out there for those who want it.

[Kraken]

Well, it seems that Republicans don't care about sexual harassment anyway. Must be one of those crimes only liberals get their panties in a bunch over.

ROCHESTER, Mich. - Herman Cain drew loud cheers from the audience as he defended himself once again against accusations of sexual harassment, and none of his rivals challenged him on the issue as the Republican presidential candidates met for their ninth debate last night.

Facing his rivals for the first time since allegations of harassment surfaced just over a week ago, Cain got a boost from a friendly audience, which jeered the moderators for even asking him about the controversy.

“The American people deserve better than someone being tried in the court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations,’’ Cain said, sparking some of the loudest applause of the night.

[El Guapo]

I like the “The American people deserve better than someone being tried in the court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations,’’ quote. It's not about him, after all. It's about how the American people shouldn't be troubled with having to evaluate accusations against him.

[LordMortis]

Nor is it surprising the more I find out about and listen to Cain, the more ridiculous the notion that he is a front runner for a presidential nominee. And that is completely discounting the current tizzy about the sexual allegations.

I would agree but then I examine the other candidates and am much less surprised.

Give me a Jindal or Daniels first any day. I am actually reduced to having to reconsider Gingrich.

The funny/strange/horrifying thing is that I can't see any of them winning a nomination with how far to the right the GOP has gone, although Romney is well on his way...

I still like Huntsman from what I know of him. Of course, I have no idea how he can run as a republican. He walks, talks, and smells like democrat to me so I can't see him going anywhere. On the bright side, so far, Huntsman's a democrat I could probably vote for and that's impressive after I helped put Obama in power. I'd a thought any prayer at voting for democrat ever again after Obama was pretty much shot.

Must be one of those crimes only liberals get their panties in a bunch over.

Or the employees you harass end up consenting and your wife is willing to look the other way. Then liberals seem to believe sexual harassment is a matter best left between spouses.

I like the “The American people deserve better than someone being tried in the court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations,’’ quote. It's not about him, after all. It's about how the American people shouldn't be troubled with having to evaluate accusations against him.

To me that sounds like a concession statement. “The American people deserve better than someone being tried in the court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations,’’ Who is someone being tried in the court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations? That would be Herman Caine. So, “The American people deserve better than Herman Caine." Maybe I'm missing something.

[Holman]

"I do not believe I should be tried in the court of public opinion, and that's why I'm here to ask for your vote."

[stessier]

Well, it seems that Republicans don't care about sexual harassment anyway. Must be one of those crimes only liberals get their panties in a bunch over.

ROCHESTER, Mich. - Herman Cain drew loud cheers from the audience as he defended himself once again against accusations of sexual harassment, and none of his rivals challenged him on the issue as the Republican presidential candidates met for their ninth debate last night.

Facing his rivals for the first time since allegations of harassment surfaced just over a week ago, Cain got a boost from a friendly audience, which jeered the moderators for even asking him about the controversy.

“The American people deserve better than someone being tried in the court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations,’’ Cain said, sparking some of the loudest applause of the night.

I'm surprised - I thought that was Little Caesar's country.

[Malificent]

"I do not believe I should be tried in the court of public opinion, and that's why I'm here to ask for your vote."

Awesome.

[LordMortis]

I'm surprised - I thought that was Little Caesar's country.

Little Caesar's country is walking distance from my house. Rochester is Chrysler country. Beyond that, I never heard of Godfather's Pizza until Caine. The Big Three here used to be Domino's, Hungry Howie's, and Little Caesar's. (Ann Arbor, Taylor, and Garden City) but I don't know how much those three affect the rest of the country any more and it's absolutely horrible that they are probably the worst three pizza chains in Michigan who represent us to the rest of union. They don't even come close to reflecting what the Michigan pizza tradition is and more represent fast food. They are to Pizza what Taco Bell is to Mexican.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza" target="_blank

Probably the best example of a Michigan Pizza is Jet's. Yum. For some reason we have more Coney Islands and Pizza Joints in Michigan than we gas stations or banks. Is it a wonder we're always competitive for the fattest state in the nation.

[Chrisoc13]

Well, it seems that Republicans don't care about sexual harassment anyway. Must be one of those crimes only liberals get their panties in a bunch over.

You are assuming that republicans accept that he did it.

I understand your point here in showing hypocrisy but it could be that a large number of people simply don't buy the stories being slung around. I can tell you that personally whenever our attorney friend Gloria Allred gets involved I immediately start thinking "this doesn't seem very legitimate."

I would rather wait to see what actually happened then care too much now.

[noxiousdog]

Well, it seems that Republicans don't care about sexual harassment anyway. Must be one of those crimes only liberals get their panties in a bunch over.

You are assuming that republicans accept that he did it.

I understand your point here in showing hypocrisy but it could be that a large number of people simply don't buy the stories being slung around. I can tell you that personally whenever our attorney friend Gloria Allred gets involved I immediately start thinking "this doesn't seem very legitimate."

I would rather wait to see what actually happened then care too much now.

I like how he's generalizing Republicans. I remember the big furor and lack of continued support over Paula Jones. Oh wait.

[Teggy]

If there's a picture of this, he's toast:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/09/politics/ ... =obnetwork" target="_blank

[Rip]

Not surprising the more I find out about Cain's accuser the less I am likely to find them credible.

A woman who settled a sexual harassment complaint against GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain in 1999 complained three years later at her next job about unfair treatment, saying she should be allowed to work from home after a serious car accident and accusing a manager of circulating a sexually charged email, The Associated Press has learned.

To settle the complaint at the immigration service, Kraushaar initially demanded thousands of dollars in payment, a reinstatement of leave she used after the accident earlier in 2002, promotion on the federal pay scale and a one-year fellowship to Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, according to a former supervisor familiar with the complaint. The promotion itself would have increased her annual salary between $12,000 and $16,000, according to salary tables in 2002 from the U.S. Office of Personnel Management.

Kraushaar said Tuesday she did not remember details about the complaint and did not remember asking for a payment, a promotion or a Harvard fellowship. Bennett, her lawyer, declined to discuss the case with the AP, saying he considered it confidential. Kraushaar left her job at the immigration service after dropping the complaint in 2003, and she went to work at the Treasury Department.

So if she can't remember details about something way after the incident we are supposed to rely on her memories of it? And because Cain didn't recall information about it he is hiding something?

Kraushaar's complaint was based on supervisors denying her request to work full time from home after a serious car accident in 2002, three former supervisors said. Two of them said Kraushaar also was denied previous requests to work from home before the car accident.

The complaint also cited as objectionable an email that a manager had circulated comparing computers to women and men, a former supervisor said. The complaint claimed that the email, based on humor widely circulated on the Internet, was sexually explicit, according to the supervisor, who did not have a copy of the email. The joke circulated online lists reasons men and women were like computers, including that men were like computers because "in order to get their attention, you have to turn them on." Women were like computers because "even your smallest mistakes are stored in long-term memory for later retrieval."

Kraushaar told the AP that she remembered the complaint focusing on supervisors denying her the opportunity to work from home after her car accident. She said other employees were allowed to work from home.

Sounds to me like someone that would cause whatever fuss they could to get what they want. The e-mail sounded funny to me and complaining about it was petty.

Maybe she flirted with Cain just hoping he would bite so she could sue?

But that doesn't mean Cain didn't sexually harass her. Just because the victim is not credible doesn't mean the accused is innocent.

Maybe Cain specially targetted women that are not credible?

While it doesn't mean he is innocent of the accusations it certainly makes it more likely.

[Carpet_pissr]

Nor is it surprising the more I find out about and listen to Cain, the more ridiculous the notion that he is a front runner for a presidential nominee. And that is completely discounting the current tizzy about the sexual allegations.

He's not (a front runner).

He was, before this shit hit the fan.

Republican candidate flavor of the month, black walnut, you have been replaced by plain (and I mean PLAIN) vanilla, with Mormon sauce on top.

Sorry dude...everyone gets a turn (but not everyone plays their turn as stylishly as you did, so chin up, Mr. Black Hat!)

[Zarathud]

“The American people deserve better than someone being tried in the court of public opinion based on unfounded accusations,’’ Cain said, sparking some of the loudest applause of the night.

Yea, preach that to President Clinton who was tried and almost impeached by House Speaker Newt Gingrich. And when facing accusations of sexual harassment, you should not refer to ANYONE as "Princess" -- even your enemy Nancy Pelosi.

[silverjon]

While it doesn't mean he is innocent of the accusations it certainly makes it more likely.

That's the same kind of mentality that says we only take a reported rape seriously when it's made by a nice girl.

[Rip]

While it doesn't mean he is innocent of the accusations it certainly makes it more likely.

That's the same kind of mentality that says we only take a reported rape seriously when it's made by a nice girl.

I didn't say I didn't take it seriously. Although comparing this to rape is kinda looney. I also take uncorroborated rape charges made by not nice girls as less believable as well. What is the point of credibility if you don't consider it on all sides of all allegations?

[Exodor]

I present the candidate's D&D character sheets.




I think my favorite bit might be Herman Cain's ability scores.

[Arcanis]

I present the candidate's D&D character sheets.




I think my favorite bit might be Herman Cain's ability scores.

Those just made me realize that some poor German dunce is wondering why the guy with the "No,No,No" plan is so popular.

[Captain Caveman]

Those just made me realize that some poor German dunce is wondering why the guy with the "No,No,No" plan is so popular.

Heh. Maybe it's his, "does No mean No? No!" plan.

[Holman]

And now... wait for it... Gingrich is surging.

A national CBS News poll shows Gingrich as the choice of 15% of GOP voters, tied with Mitt Romney and three points behind Herman Cain, who is slipping.

A national McClatchy/Marist poll shows Gingrich in second place with 19% of the vote — four points behind Romney. Also notable is that 43% of Gingrich’s supporters say they are firmly committed to his candidacy — compared to 30% for Romney, and 31% for Cain. In total, only 30% of voters supporting a candidate say they are firmly committed. Gingrich’s higher-than-average floor of support could prove significant moving forward.

Sigh. If there's anything that will make this insufferable gasbag more odious, it's the belief that the country finally wants him.

[Jaymann]

I heard on the radio that Perry had some kind of brain freeze. What happened?

[Arcanis]

I heard on the radio that Perry had some kind of brain freeze. What happened?

During the debate he said there were 3 departments he wanted to cut out and he forgot the 3rd one when listing them. Paul tossed him the third after he went 'um, uh' for about 5 seconds strait. At least he had the good nature to go on the shows and make fun of himself for it later, Letterman in particular was funny.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

I heard on the radio that Perry had some kind of brain freeze. What happened?

During the debate he said there were 3 departments he wanted to cut out and he forgot the 3rd one when listing them. Paul tossed him the third after he went 'um, uh' for about 5 seconds strait. At least he had the good nature to go on the shows and make fun of himself for it later, Letterman in particular was funny.

Actually, Paul (or someone) tossed him the EPA which wasn't the one he was going for but Perry said it anyway (it was the Department of Energy he meant). And it was actually for (they've timed it) something like 50+ seconds that he was struggling to remember. Everyone gets brain farts, but man this was painful to watch.

[Grundbegriff]

Roll the videotape

[Austin]

Roll the videotape

Brutal.

[Holman]

He almost braves it out for about 20 seconds. Up to that point, he could have laughed it off with "Well, a LOT of government agencies are going to get a review," and it would have been just a funny blip. But he keeps slogging dutifully forward until he's up to his neck, and then he's gone.

It totally comes off like someone grasping for the sound bite that sounds good rather than something he's really thought about.

[Carpet_pissr]

It totally comes off like someone grasping for the sound bite that sounds good rather than something he's really thought about.

Hmmm, I wonder why that is?

[Mr. Fed]

I thought that Perry video would be the most excruciating moment of the campaign.

Then came Herman.

[Biyobi]

I thought that Perry video would be the most excruciating moment of the campaign.

Then came Herman.

The still they used of him as a "cover" for the video is fantastic! Apparently staring off into space trying to remember what his handlers told him, or a woman just walked past his office door...

[The Meal]

Oops.

[Holman]

You know who ELSE knew that simple policy questions were really Gotcha questions?

Actually, it looks like he's straining to work out the complicated math of whether Gaddafi or Obama is more evil.