Prague - Beta Test Run

[Grundbegriff]

Intelligence Briefing

Tensions are high among China, India, and Pakistan-- all claimants to some or all of Kashmir. For at least a decade, equilibrium has prevailed, with China controlling the salt flats of Aksai Chin and the area northeast of K2, Pakistan administering the Northern Areas and Azad Kashmir, and India governing Jammu and Kashmir in the center and south of the disputed terrain.



In recent months, a so-called Kashmiri Independence Movement (KIM) has rekindled the insurgency with sporadic paramilitary assaults on targets of modest but symbolic value. But the lack of ideological clarity in these incidents has left the impression that the Movement is actually an intelligence operation on the part of some stakeholding nation. The United States and Russia, with interests and a poorly concealed black presence in nearby Tadjikistan, have been monitoring events in the region closely. Mistrust is the order of the day.

Now events have reached a critical point. Ten days ago, the provincial government of Badakhshan in northeastern Afghanistan arrested a suspiciously large contingent of international travelers in a remote tribal village east of Khandud, near the Wakhan Corridor. These sixty-five young people claimed variously to be freelance journalists, mountaineers, representatives of non-governmental aide organizations, college students on winter break, or literary tourists. However, it is widely bruited that they are intelligence agents under non-official cover who pooled their resources while attempting to enter Kashmir to conduct clandestine operations against the KIM. The provincial government refuses to release them until the situation is clarified (which will probably entail bribes) and influence in Kabul has little meaning in this remote ethnic enclave. Meanwhile, the KIM has apparently bombed a marketplace in Srinagar.

In response to these events, every clandestine service with Kashmir in its portfolio has mobilized a team and sent it ...

... to Prague



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Team Goldman Saxon
As a corporate field agent for Goldman Saxon, you have agreed to travel to Prague, Czech Republic, where official and unofficial representatives of concerned states and entities are expected to converge with the same goal in mind: to find out the actual intentions of China, India, Pakistan, Russia, and the United States in the disputed region of Kashmir.

You have been entrusted with this sensitive mission because, as a fully vetted trainee, your commitment to the corporation has been qualified as total and beyond compromise.

Prague Squad "Alibi"
Field Agent "Leverage":
Field Agent "Derivative":
You will take up residence at the Hotel Dap Military Club, Vítězné náměstí 684/4, in the Dejvice community in Prague 6.
Your local will be Kavárna Alibi‎, Svatovítská 906/6, which you can reach from the Hotel Dap by proceeding south on the Svatovítská for a couple of blocks. It will be on the left, just past Budvarka: 50.097739, 14.396046. After you make initial contact with your "travel buddy," you will always meet in your local; you must never meet in your respective residential quarters.

Your Station Chief is "Union Bag." He will monitor your activities and make contact with you at a time of his choosing.



Prague Squad "Black Bull"
Field Agent "Tranche":
Field Agent "Equity":
You will take up residence in the Hotel Questenberk in Prague 1.
Your local will be U Černého Vola‎, Loretánské náměstí 107/1, which you can reach from the Hotel by proceeding along the Pohořelec to and down Loretánské. The tavern will be on your right: 50.088193, 14.391835. After you make initial contact with your "travel buddy," you will always meet in your local; you must never meet in your respective residential quarters.

Your Station Chief is "Union Bag." He will make contact with you at a time of his choosing.



Operation "Alibi is Bull"
Station Chief "Union Bag":
<redacted>

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Team Blusterberg
As a private contractor for the Blusterberg Group, you have agreed to travel to Prague, Czech Republic, where official and unofficial representatives of concerned states and entities are expected to converge with the same goal in mind: to find out the actual intentions of China, India, Pakistan, Russia, and the United States in the disputed region of Kashmir.

You have been contracted to perform this sensitive mission according to the terms specified in Article 14 of "Document" (qv). Quality assurance functionals will monitor and quantify your performance as specified therein. Consideration for satisfaction of "Document" is contingent on independent verification of mission success.

Prague Squad "Dos Equis"
Situation Engineer II "Harrassowitz"
Tactical Analyst I "Smithson"
You are to find lodging in two of the commercial chain hotels near the Novy Smichov Shopping Center in Prague 5.
You will avoid one another except when meeting at the Hombre del Mundo restaurant, Nádražní 29/21, situated diagonally across from the TGI Friday south of the shopping center: 50.07036, 14.40488.

Your Regional Advocate is Samir "Rolf" Andreessen. He will make contact with you at a time of his choosing.



Prague Squad "Blenheim"
Situation Engineer II "Spaulding"
Tactical Analyst I "Papathanassiou"
You are to take rooms on separate floors of the Hotel Winston Churchill‎, Orebitská 6, in Prague 3.
You will avoid one another except when meeting at the Café Bar Churchill‎, Seifertova 1840/4, just northeast of the train station: 50.08517, 14.44259.

Your Regional Advocate is Samir "Rolf" Andreessen. He will make contact with you at a time of his choosing.



Project "XXV"
Regional Advocate Samir "Rolf" Andreessen:
<redacted>

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Kashmiri Independence Movement (KIM), Strike Force Umbrage
As a founding "member" of the "Kashmiri Independence Movement," you are fed up with the interference of so many foreign parties in the internal affairs of Kashmir. So much espionage and counterespionage is afoot in the region that the only reliable way to figure out what's actually going on is to infiltrate some of these larger, better funded operations. Your mission is to find out the actual intentions of China, India, Pakistan, Russia, and the United States in your "homeland".

Operation "Wool Pull"

Agent "Turtleneck"
You will infiltrate Goldman Saxon's "Alibi is Bull" team in Prague and gather intelligence while avoiding detection. Whenever you acquire sufficient information (a measure left to your professional discretion), you must meet Agent "Cardigan" at the drop point to cross-tabulate your lore and prepare an interim report for <redacted>.

Agent "Cardigan"
You will infiltrate the Blusterberg Group's "Project XXV" team, an espionage cell in Prague. You will gather intelligence while avoiding detection. Whenever you acquire sufficient information (a measure left to your professional discretion), you must meet Agent "Turtleneck" at the drop point to cross-tabulate your lore and prepare an interim report for <redacted>.

The Drop Point
Once you have made contact with your partner, you must split your time between your cover residence and the Hotel Čertovka (50.086826, 14.408371). After your partner checks in you must hold all pertinent meetings at the drop point, a signals site in a tiny triangular park just south of the Hotel, in the forecourt of the Bistro Bruncvik under the west end of the Charles Bridge. Sit on the bench just in front of the bistro for optimal transmissions.



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[Grundbegriff]

Roles
Team Goldman Saxon

• Union Bag - Station Chief - Handler for Operation Alibi is Bull - Access to Alibi Forum and Black Bull Forum
• Leverage - Access to Alibi Forum
• Derivative - Access to Alibi Forum
• Tranche - Access to Black Bull Forum
• Equity - Access to Black Bull Forum

Team Blusterberg Group

• Samir "Rolf" Andreessen - Station Chief - Handler for Project XXV - Access to Dos Equis Forum and Blenheim Forum
• Harrassowitz - Access to Dos Equis Forum
• Smithson - Access to Dos Equis Forum
• Spaulding - Access to Blenheim Forum
• Papathanassiou - Access to Blenheim Forum

KIM, Strike Force Umbrage

• Agent Turtleneck - One of {Leverage, Derivative, Tranche, Equity} is also Agent Turtleneck from Team KIM. He secretly has passive access to both the Alibi Forum and the Black Bull Forum.
• Agent Cardigan - One of {Harrassowitz, Smithson, Spaulding, Papathanassiou} is also Agent Cardigan from Team KIM. He secretly has passive access to both the Dos Equis Forum and the Blenheim Forum.

Roster
10 slots total available.

1. b2112
2. Chaosraven
3. El Guapo
4. Lagom Lite
5. Newcastle
6. Qantaga
7. Remus West
8. RMC
9. Scoop20906
10. stessier

[Grundbegriff]

Rules

Every Station Chief, Regional Advocate, and Field Agent has been in Prague for three days. So ripe is the atmosphere for espionage that each player has already learned two crucial facts that may help yield the truth about the actions and intentions of the stakeholder nations.

Cycle

Cycle - the Day - Voting
A turn consists of a Day and a Night. A Day lasts until an actual majority votes to interrogate one player or until a real-life Monday, Wednesday, or Friday at 9pm EST occurs -- whichever comes first. A night lasts for a random time between 6 and 18 hours.

Every Day, the players may (but need not) Vote to interrogate one player. That player will be taken to the underground restaurant Svatá Klára‎, in Prague 7 near the zoo, during closing hours. There, he will be subjected to enhanced techniques for the extraction of information until he has divulged one of his two crucial facts xor a piece of disinformation (if he resists interrogation). (This will be reported authoritatively in the game thread by the moderator.) Then he will be treated to fine local cuisine and a selection of domestic wines. The player, uninjured, may return to the game after interrogation.



Cycle - the Day - Resisting Interrogation
One member of each large team (Goldman Saxon, Blusterberg Group) is a hardened veteran able to Resist Interrogation. This member will be determined randomly for each large team from among the three players who are neither the handler nor the mole. Both members of the small team (KIM) are very hardened veterans-- just like the other hardened veterans, but able to resist interrogation with no penalty or cost on the first day.

To exercise this power, the hardened veteran must PM the Moderator with one or two fake clues to add to his set of crucial facts. The fake clues may be false, but need not be. If the veteran submits only one fake clue, he may specify which of his genuine crucial facts to replace.

The first time a hardened veteran is interrogated, if he chooses to resist interrogation, his disinformation will be revealed to all instead of one of his crucial facts. If he has submitted two pieces of disinformation, then he will also resist if interrogated again; the second piece of disinformation will be revealed. On a third interrogation, both of his original crucial facts will be revealed and the ruse will be exposed.

Note: a hardened veteran may only file disinformation once, so he must choose whether to submit one proposition or two. (See clarifications in the Q&A below!)
Note: resisting interrogation provides no defense against a Handler's scanning, which represents expert craft.

Cycle - the Night - Scanning
The Handlers are Scanners. Every Night, Station Chief "Union Bag" and Regional Advocate Andreessen may Scan one player against the latest increment of SigInt. By means of this process, the scanning party will learn exactly one of the crucial facts originally known by that player. The fact thus learned will be chosen by a coin toss. Scanning the same player twice (on two different nights) is permitted and will yield both crucial facts known by that player; the second scan is not a coin toss. "Union Bag" and "Rolf" may overlap in their scans and will not know that this has occurred. If they scan the same person, there is no guarantee that they will learn the same crucial fact; the first fact for each will be decided by a coin toss.

Cycle - the Night - Preventing the Scan
One Night per game each, a KIM agent may prevent a handler's (Chief's or Advocate's) scan. To do this, the KIM agent must know the identity (i.e., OO username) of the handler. The KIM agents may exercise their one-time abilities on the same Night or on different Nights, and each may thwart either his own handler or his partner's handler. Both agents may select the same target, but not on the same night.

Cycle - the Night - Whacking a Mole
By night, instead of Scanning, a Handler may try to evict from his team's forums a suspected mole. The Handler submits that person's name to the Moderator. If the named player is the KIM mole, he will lose access to the forum that served as his cover and the Handler will be notified of success. If the named player is loyal, the Handler will be told so.

Forums
The game features six forums: Octopus Overlords, the "Alibi" forum, the "Black Bull" forum, the "Dos Equis" forum, the "Blenheim" forum, and the Charles Bridge Forum. The "Alibi" and "Black Bull" forums are Goldman Saxon forums, each with two field agents and a handler. The "Dos Equis" and "Blenheim" forums are Blusterberg Group forums, each with two field agents and a handler. One field agent in {Alibi, Black Bull} is a double agent working for KIM; he has access to both Goldman Saxon forums as well as to the Charles Bridge forum. One field agent in {Dos Equis, Blenheim} is a double agent working for KIM; he has access to both Blusterberg Group forums as well as to the Charles Bridge forum.

Players will sign into the forums using their cover names, as specified in the instructions the Moderator will provide when roles are distributed. Whether and how to reveal your OO Forum identity is left to the players and their teammates.

Solution and victory conditions
Every Day, at any time before the end of the Day, the highest ranking member of each team may (but need not) submit a Solution to the Moderator. The first team to submit a well-formed, correct Solution by OO PM wins.

Submitting an incorrect Solution will generate two results. First, a random fact from the set of facts originally allocated to members of the submitting team will be revealed to everyone by the Moderator, who will not state which team took the guess, nor which agent's fact was exposed. Second, the Moderator will give a status report about the standing of each team relative to the truth. A status report will have the form: "There are 15 uncertainties regarding the five nations: Goldman Saxon knows or has guessed 6 of them; the Blusterberg Group knows or has guessed 5 of them; KIM knows or has guessed 9 of them."

A solution consists of five ordered quadruple statements of the form:
<Nation>, which has <Number> operatives among the detainees, is <Stage of Activity> to <Strategic Goal>.

For example:
France, which has 4 operatives among the detainees, is Not Quite Ready to Cyber-Attack the Power Grid.

The information that must be ordered in this way to provide a Solution is as follows:
Nations (given here in decreasing order by population): China, India, United States, Pakistan, Russia
Number per nation of suspected operatives detained in Afghanistan (in decreasing order): 15, 14, 13, 12, 11
Stages of Activity (in increasing order of intensity/commitment): Threatening, Planning, Covertly operating, Building a coalition, Taking steps
Strategic Goals (in alphabetical order by verb): to apply economic pressure, to derail the peace process, to enforce the no-fly zone, to incite a civil war, to put boots on the ground

Stages of Activity are discrete, not inclusive or nesting. Thus, a nation that is covertly operating is no longer planning, and so forth. Likewise, Strategic Goals are discrete, not inclusive or nesting.

There are 20 clues; 18 discrete clues and 2 duplicates. These will be distributed among the 10 players, 2 per player. No player will have both an original and its duplicate. The duplicates will be split between {Goldman Saxon, Blusterberg Group}; otherwise, assignment of clues will be random.

The game continues until someone correctly solves the puzzle, or until the Moderator intervenes to declare a winner.

Here's a worksheet to help develop a Solution.

Roles
If a player would prefer not to be a Handler (Station Chief, Regional Advocate), he may PM the Moderator before roles are generated to express this preference. The desire will be accommodated, if possible, before random.org takes over the assignment process. Otherwise, assignment to teams and roles will be entirely random.

[Grundbegriff]

Questions, Answers, and Clarifications

Can you summarize the players and their powers and such?
Yes, I can.

Do it!

Team Goldman Saxon has a Handler, called the Station Chief, whose forum name is 'Union Bag'.
Team Goldman Saxon has four field agents, three normal and one double.
The double agent is a mole from KIM. One of the three normal agents is a hardened veteran.

The Blusterberg Group has a Handler, called the Regional Advocate, whose forum name is 'Rolf'.
The Blusterberg Group has four field agents, three normal and one double.
The double agent is a mole from KIM. One of the three normal agents is a hardened veteran.

Team KIM has no Handler and two field agents, both hardened veterans.
Each is a mole on one of the other teams.

Things everyone can do by day: vote to interrogate someone, chat in a cell forum.
Things the interrogated player may do by day: nothing if he's normal; if he's hardened, he may submit disinformation to the Moderator which will be revealed as if real during the hardened player's first interrogation.
Things a Handler may do by day: submit a solution to the Moderator. If it's correct, his team wins; if it's incorrect, then one random fact originally allocated to that team will be exposed to everyone.

Things everyone can do by night: chat in a cell forum.
Things a Handler can do by night: Scan one player xor attempt to whack a mole.

Things KIM agents may only do after the fourth day (D/N, D/N, D/N, D): meet with one another in their cell forum.


When must a Hardened Veteran (or Very Hardened Veteran) file his disinformation?
If a person eligible to exercise this power comes under interrogation, I'll ask by PM whether he wants to file. There's no need to rush into filing... unless you're the first person interrogated!

Who makes up false, twisted, or alternate facts to use as disinformation?
The hardened veteran does. I don't supply them. To create a false fact, contradict something you know is true. To create a true but truncated fact, give just a subset of some compound fact that you know. To roll the dice, just make something up in the style of the clues you've seen! Anything goes.

I see that you've posted a copy of the Rules into all the Prague cell forums. I also see that you're updating things here like mad. Are you copying all those changes to all those forums?
Heck no. I'm only updating and mentioning new rules here. The other posts should be regarded as a limited quick-reference, but this page alone is authoritative.

What happens if a KIM agent tries to use his night power to block a Handler, provides an OO name, and that person isn't a Handler?
The power is expended with no effect. So KIM agents had better be sure they know what they're doing before they pull that trigger!

Is it just me, or does that solution template/worksheet thing look like a Stealth Bomber?

[Grundbegriff]

Here's a Solution Template:

Code: Select all

China, with         _____ assets among the captive travelers, is ____________________ to ____________________.
India, with         _____ assets among the captive travelers, is ____________________ to ____________________.
United States, with _____ assets among the captive travelers, is ____________________ to ____________________.
Pakistan, with      _____ assets among the captive travelers, is ____________________ to ____________________.
Russia, with        _____ assets among the captive travelers, is ____________________ to ____________________.

[Grundbegriff]

Roles have been distributed.
Clues are on the way now.
Please let me know if you spot any inconsistencies or holes in the rules.

When all PMs (roles and clues) have been picked up and all participants have registered in their respective forums, I'll note that here.

Good luck and have fun!

[Grundbegriff]

Anyone who checks in late should PM me over there. (If you've already been in touch with me, ignore this!)

I can't get to OO from work, but I can get to the taverns and pubs of Prague!

[Grundbegriff]

In consultation with a team of experts, I have developed two revisions to the rules:

(1)
KIM has no handler. To prevent the other two teams from leaving KIM in the dark by simply refusing to interrogate anyone,
KIM will receive one Night Scan for every day that nobody is interrogated.
KIM will not be able to cash these in until both KIM agents have had their cover blown and have converged under the Charles Bridge.

(2)
To complicate, but not kill, each Handler's mini-game of finding and whacking the mole on his team, the following buff is in effect:
KIM agents are now Very Hardened Veterans. If a KIM agent is interrogated on the first day of the game, it doesn't count against (i.e., wear down) his Resistance to Interrogation ability.
This effectively wraps each KIM agent in one more layer of Kevlar/Deceit.

Finally, a clarification:
The Station Chief and the Regional Advocate are "Handlers" (the former for Goldman Saxon, the latter for the Blusterberg Group).
A Handler has two night powers and may exercise one or the other but not both on a given night. He may also refrain.
If a Handler chooses to Whack a Mole, he must submit a target by code name, not by OO name. He's trying to purge his team, after all!
If a Handler chooses the SigInt update, he submits a target by OO name, not by code name. After all, he's probably following a lead that took place in the forum!
If a KIM agent chooses to block a Handler, he submits a target by OO name, not by code name. After all, the mini-puzzle is to identify one's Handler!

Please mark all questions to the mod as follows:

Code: Select all

[color=fuchsia][b] Blah, blah, blah, Ginger. Blah, blah, blah. [/b][/color]

ALSO: PLEASE BE SURE TO CONFIGURE "hide online presence" IN YOUR USER ACCOUNT AT THE OTHER FORUM.

Finally, note that I have been using the "View Forum As" function, through my administrator account, to temporarily take over your various accounts and snoop around to check visibility and such. I changed none of your personal settings; indeed I ignored them completely. I simply looked at Prague through your eyes.

A NOTE TO THE HANDLERS: In the other forum, the two KIM agents have been given alternate user accounts -- additional accounts with whimsical usernames -- for the purpose of spying on you.

Ok, then. Game on!

[Grundbegriff]

Monday Morning


Team Goldman Saxon has 0 correct out of 15.
The Blusterberg Group has 0 correct out of 15.
KIM, Strike Force Umbrage, has 0 correct out of 15.


There are 20 clues in circulation, 10 per player.
There are 18 discrete clues and 2 duplicates.


You've spent the weekend touring Prague. Lovely place, ain't it? But now it's time to get to work.

Boilerplate:

Handlers: Will you submit a Solution?
Everyone: Whom will you interrogate?
Deadline: 9PM EST, Friday, 09 December 2011.


As usual, I'll be updating the Q & A post with further info as questions come my way. Be sure to check it from time to time!

[Qantaga]

So, our decision today is to interrogate or not to interrogate.

(A) Should we choose to interrogate, we have a 60% chance of unveiling a true clue and a 40% chance that we would get a most likely false clue.

(B) Should we choose not to interrogate, we give our Handlers a night scan/action, thus putting the KIM agents a step behind the Handlers. Obviously, both Handlers stand to benefit in that scenario.

I'm leaning toward not interrogating today, so that we begin Day 2 with Handlers equipped with a slight head start over the KIM, but I could easily be missing something.

However, even with a false clue being revealed by interrogation, an agent (or possibly agents) will know that the information is false (based on the clues they know to be true), thus learning that the interrogatee is a hardened vet or KIM agent. Still, with the uncertainty of whether the known falsehood benefits my team, my competing team, or the KIM, I am inclined to give the Handlers a bit of a head start.

Thoughts?

[Grundbegriff]

You startled me!

I thought I was here alone.

[Qantaga]

(1)
KIM has no handler. To prevent the other two teams from leaving KIM in the dark by simply refusing to interrogate anyone,
KIM will receive one Night Scan for every day that nobody is interrogated.
KIM will not be able to cash these in until both KIM agents have had their cover blown and have converged under the Charles Bridge.
!

That's what I get for not reading the rules revisions from the "team of experts."

I missed this revision that negates my previous perception that no interrogation benefits the Handlers over the KIM agents.

Never mind my previous (erroneous) post of the advantage of not interrogating. (Insert best Rosanne Rosannadanna "Never mind" voice here).

I am now leaning interrogate over not interrogate.

Thoughts?

[stessier]

(1)
KIM has no handler. To prevent the other two teams from leaving KIM in the dark by simply refusing to interrogate anyone,
KIM will receive one Night Scan for every day that nobody is interrogated.
KIM will not be able to cash these in until both KIM agents have had their cover blown and have converged under the Charles Bridge.
!

That's what I get for not reading the rules revisions from the "team of experts."

I missed this revision that negates my previous perception that no interrogation benefits the Handlers over the KIM agents.

Never mind my previous (erroneous) post of the advantage of not interrogating. (Insert best Rosanne Rosannadanna "Never mind" voice here).

I am now leaning interrogate over not interrogate.

Just that you perhaps have to re-read that rule again.

Thoughts?

[Qantaga]

Just that you perhaps have to re-read that rule again.

Are you of the opinion that we should disregard the value of KIM scan information? That the night information gained by the Handlers prior to KIM meeting at the drop point outweighs the risk of KIM gaining data?

[stessier]

Actually, I misread the rule. Thought it said the skipped scans only give KIM scans if they are in their hideout, not that they get tickets to cash in later.

Carry on.

[Scoop20906]

Ok. Neat. With the code names I'm not even sure who is on my team unless they straight tell me.

Of course we interrogate.

[Grundbegriff]

Clarification

I've been asked whether the KIM agents, in their alternate accounts, are vulnerable.

You don't seem to understand, grasshoppers, that I've thought of everything....

In addition to their regular codename account, each KIM agent has a totally separate account.
(a) The separate account has nothing to do with the codenames.
(b) The separate account can see both the KIM agent's own cell forum and the other cell forum on that Kim agent's team.
(c) I instruct each KIM agent to poke around in both forums using the alternate account, so that the Handler for his cover team won't be able to narrow down which sub-team he's on.

All of this hoop-jumping was necessary because no combination of permissions that I could find eliminated the "Users browsing this forum" information. Even hiding one's online presence, removing the privilege to see other members, and similar measures failed to eliminate that trace. So I introduced... obfuscation!

Now back to our regularly scheduled Prague

[bb2112]

Rules clarification: Grund, when an interrogation has occurred, do we get one clue or two? The rules say two, but I thought I remember a post from saying you were thinking of reducing it to one.

[Grundbegriff]

Rules clarification: Grund, when an interrogation has occurred, do we get one clue or two? The rules say two, but I thought I remember a post from saying you were thinking of reducing it to one.

The rules (above) say:

There, he will be subjected to enhanced techniques for the extraction of information until he has divulged one of his two crucial facts xor a piece of disinformation (if he resists interrogation)

I can't update the other five instances of the Rules in all the cell forums for every change. I'll go ahead and post the latest version there, though, to eliminate some confusion.

[bb2112]

Cool, thanks.

[El Guapo]

Let's see, some questions.

So the rules say that if a hardened veteran is repeatedly interrogated, the third time "both of his original crucial facts will be revealed and the ruse will be exposed." I take it that the post would say "ok, so and so cracks and reveals two true facts, which are as follows:". So then we'd know he's a veteran?

What happens if we interrogate a non-veteran three times? He reveals the same fact again on the third day? Nothing? It seems like we'd know he's not a veteran?

What happens if we interrogate a KIM agent four times: the fourth time he cracks as with the hardened veteran? By cracking on the fourth day, wouldn't we know that he's a KIM agent?

Seems like the best way to get reliable information is either to systematically waterboard the heck out of people one by one, or to waterboard them one at a time, and then have one's handler scan each one twice.

Of course, it's not yet clear how one team gets an advantage from the interrogation process when it works the same for everyone.

[Grundbegriff]

Let's see, some questions.

So the rules say that if a hardened veteran is repeatedly interrogated, the third time "both of his original crucial facts will be revealed and the ruse will be exposed." I take it that the post would say "ok, so and so cracks and reveals two true facts, which are as follows:". So then we'd know he's a veteran?

Correct.

What happens if we interrogate a non-veteran three times? He reveals the same fact again on the third day? Nothing? It seems like we'd know he's not a veteran?

You'll get repeats of the first two exposures, which will imply one of two things: Either (a) he was normal and the first two clues he revealed were simply his two clues, now repeated in round three, xor (b) he was a hardened vet, but he chose not to resist interrogation.

What happens if we interrogate a KIM agent four times: the fourth time he cracks as with the hardened veteran? By cracking on the fourth day, wouldn't we know that he's a KIM agent?

(A)
If you all start interrogating a KIM agent today and he files two false facts, then the sequence would look like this if you continue to hammer him:
(1) Get the first lie; (2) Get the second lie; (3) Get a repeat of those two lies; (4) Get his two real facts, thus exposing him as a KIM agent.

(B)
If you all start interrogating a KIM agent after today and he files two false facts, then the sequence would be indistinguishable from that of any hardened vet:
(1) Get the first lie; (2) Get the second lie; (3) Get his two real facts, thus exposing him as a hardened veteran (possibly KIM, possibly not).

(C)
If you all start interrogating a non-hardened agent on any day, then the sequence would be:
(1) Get the first fact; (2) Get the second fact.

Here's how it would go with only one false fact filed:
(A')
If you all start interrogating a KIM agent today and he files one false fact, then the sequence would look like this if you continue to hammer him:
(1) Get the lie; (2) Get the fact not hidden by the lie; (3) Get a repeat of the truth and the lie; (4) Get his two real facts, thus exposing him as a KIM agent.

(B')
If you all start interrogating a KIM agent after today and he files one false fact, then the sequence would be indistinguishable from that of any hardened vet:
(1) Get the lie; (2) Get the fact not hidden by the lie; (3) Get his two real facts, thus exposing him as a hardened veteran (possibly KIM, possibly not).

[El Guapo]

So just to be clear, there's guaranteed to be precisely one mole in each non-KIM team's forum, but each "sub-forum" (e.g., Alibi or Black Bull) may or may not have a mole?

[Grundbegriff]

So just to be clear, there's guaranteed to be precisely one mole in each non-KIM team's forum, but each "sub-forum" (e.g., Alibi or Black Bull) may or may not have a mole?

Correct.

To put it differently:

Two large teams, each with two cell forums and one mole (assigned under cover to one or the other of those forums, but covertly able to see both).

Here's yet another way to think about it:

Exactly one of the following is a double agent from KIM: {Leverage, Derivative, Tranche, Equity}
and
Exactly one of the following is a double agent from KIM: {Harrassowitz, Smithson, Spaulding, Papathanassiou}

[Lagom Lite]

[Remus West]

I'd comment but I haven't fully read the rules yet. I'll get to that and then proceed to make noise from there.

[Grundbegriff]

Just in case there's any confusion on this point:

PMs among players are not permitted. They're not permitted here, and they're not permitted there. Players may only PM the moderator.

[stessier]

Preamble

I had hoped to be able to post this with the full backing of Goldman Saxon, but I think our Station Chief has been a bit busy and unable share the most recent developments with our other squad. For those hearing bits for the first time, I apologize, but time is getting short and there is much to do.

I would like to propose the following quid pro quo.

Proposal
It is proposed that we alternate interrogations between Goldman Saxon and Blusterberg.

We believe this will keep us on even footing and prevent squabbling that could open a door to a KIM victory - something that, we're sure you will agree, should be avoided at all costs.

To accept this offer, please send forward one member as a spokesperson for Blusterberg to parley.

Methodology

Once the terms of the Offer are mutually finalized and accepted, I offer myself for the first interrogation. Naturally, if you find me unacceptable, you may name another and we will agree to the interrogation without argument or comment. Tomorrow, it would then be agreed that Goldman Saxon will choose the target for interrogation. We will continue alternating interrogations going forward.

Now, as I'm sure you'll also agree, it is important not to link OO names with our code names for the safeties of our respective leaders. For the two spokesperson's, this is an unavoidable consequence of trying to work together. But we believe we can keep the remaining links hidden.

The vote for the interrogation should proceed as follows -

1. stessier
2. Blusterberg spokesperson
3. Goldman Saxon random #1
4. Blusterberg random #1
5. Goldman Saxon random #2
6. Blusterberg random #2

While this will serve to identify two of our teammates by OO names, it will not link them to their code names. Once the plan is agreed to by both camps and the voting starts, whoever wants to vote for the team votes in their team's allotted slot. The rest of the team then waits until their slot is up again and then votes. No mention should be made in the Secret Forums if one is a Voter or not. Once these 6 people have Voted, they will be the Voters through the rest of the game. The full teams never need self identify on OO. I'm sure you will see the benefits of this.

We propose the Blusterberg Rep and I post at a minimum once a RL day whether or not we are ready to vote. Once ready, the vote commences with the same Voters every day (although not necessarily the same order - just the same alternating Goldman Saxon/Blusterberg approach).

Warning

Finally, we strongly suggest the only conversation that should occur in this thread going forward is between myself and the Blusterberg representative (or, put another way, I will be the only Goldman Saxon person who's going to be talking on OO).

All other communication should be kept to the private forums. It is just too easy to slip and make an argument in both forums that ends up linking your code name to OO name.

We hope you see the logic of this proposal but are open minded about any improvements you might suggest. It is ever in our thoughts that a missed Interrogation is a free night Scan for KIM.

We look forward to you response.

[Newcastle]

i dont like the idea of systematic discovery...kind of takes any fun out of the game and pushes it into a pre-determined order and i think zaps the fun out of any game really. Makes it kind of boring to be honest. But will go with the group. Yes we'll end up advantaging our respective sides, but at the same time, i kind of think it would turn into a snoozefest. thats just me though.

[stessier]

i dont like the idea of systematic discovery...kind of takes any fun out of the game and pushes it into a pre-determined order and i think zaps the fun out of any game really. Makes it kind of boring to be honest. But will go with the group. Yes we'll end up advantaging our respective sides, but at the same time, i kind of think it would turn into a snoozefest. thats just me though.

Fascinating.

Anyway, there is no predetermined order to ruin the fun. The order of which side gets to choose the Target for interrogation is predetermined, but that's not really the same thing. Any side can choose to interrogate anyone. Don't know why anyone would choose to interrogate their own guys, but the option is open to them.

[Newcastle]

dude, the order is side A goes, then side B goes. then side A, then side B. Where's the fun in that? Why should folks comply? Creates equal information? Denies team mole from gaining access?

I just dont like the idea of such an organized method of discovery. I think it takes away from deviations and possible chances for a team to hoodwink the other and gain an advantage. Sorry, not an orderly thinker like you Stessier. I like my game chaotic not pre-determined.

[stessier]

Why would anyone agree to vote willy nilly? Why would someone not take the clearest path toward victory?

Do you think someone would go willingly to an interrogation without letting his team know in their Secret Forums? Neither side can hoodwink - neither side has enough votes to act unilaterally.

[Grundbegriff]

Is the game too rigidly constructed?
Too difficult?
Too limited?
OK?

I ask not because it's personal, but because it's a lot easier to tweak and fix early than to try to do so later.

[Scoop20906]

I feel like there is a need to withhold my information. Also, I'm not sure how to collaborate and since there is no mechanism to force collaboration as in normal werewolf where we have to collaborate otherwise we all die.

Grund, can you explain the motivation to share info and vote together to interrogate someone?

[Grundbegriff]

I feel like there is a need to withhold my information. Also, I'm not sure how to collaborate and since there is no mechanism to force collaboration as in normal werewolf where we have to collaborate otherwise we all die.

Grund, can you explain the motivation to share info and vote together to interrogate someone?

Good question. The main motivation is to gain clues. Without most or all of the clues, your chance of solving the puzzle is slim.

However, the gameplay is at a standstill because it's too hard to figure out how to break the stalemate and paranoia. Here's an example of breakage:

Suppose GS and BG decline to vote against someone to interrogate. In that case, KIM earns a scan.
Suppose they do this five times. KIM earns five scans.
By this time, the KIM agents meet in their hideout and cash in those scans.

They started with four clues between them. With five more scans, they have 9 of the 18. They're halfway to solving the puzzle.
Meanwhile, GS and BG have had five scans apiece. Each of those teams starts with 8 pieces of information, so each has the potential to reach 13 by this method.

At this point, of course, with no public scans, it's just a matter of time before either BG or GS reaches 18, figures out the puzzle, and wins.

In that sense, even with the buffs, the mechanism of the game is tilted against KIM. It's possible for the other two teams to force KIM to lose.

THE ROOT of this problem is the fact that there's no urgency to public interrogation, as you say. For this reason, I'm contemplating the following two tweaks to the rules. I present them here for discussion. Specifically, I'd like to know whether you all endorse the idea that these additions would jazz things up a bit!

FIRST: The KIM team gets a scan every night, just like the other two teams. That way, they'll never be left in the dust.
SECOND: The penalty for failing to vote to interrogate would no longer be that KIM gets a scan chip to cash in later. Instead, the penalty for failing to elect a victim would be this: I, the Moderator, randomly select a player (from among those who have never been interrogated) as if he had been elected, and he's interrogated twice. (In other words, if he's normal, both of his facts are exposed. If he's hardened, then he goes through two steps of resistance.)

This way, there's a steady exposure of facts to move the puzzle-solving forward. Either you drive, or I drive. If you drive, you have some control over what's exposed and in what measure.

THOUGHTS?

[Newcastle]

 remus 
 


have to start somewhere

[Scoop20906]

What about a ticking clock? You don't have to set a number of nights however at certain points in the game you can make the situation with the students worsen (student's are executed maybe?) with an eye towards eventually by day X we fail and out respect agencies out us out to pasture.

You can keep the number of nights a secret (to yourself) and dribble out the clues as we go through the days and nights.

[Lagom Lite]

Yep, the problem of having three teams is majorities and voting - as demonstrated by Scoop's Starship R. Scott games among others. There needs to be a dangerous foe somewhere - someone that everyone has a pertinent interest in cooperating to try to find.

I think the game needs more time in the workshop - we should probably restart and reroll after more discussion.

[Lagom Lite]

Since there is no way to remove players, there will always be a majority of six players required. Either Goldman + moles vs Blusterberg / Blusterberg + moles vs Goldman OR Goldman + Blusterberg vs moles (stessier's plan, which is the only workable one but which also borders on exploit and arguably goes against the spirit of the game). This is not a fun system and will probably only lead to stalemate on interrogations.

Here's a proposal: Voting doesn't take place in the main thread, but in the Goldman and Blusterberg forums - Goldman chooses one to interrogate in their forum, and Blusterberg chooses another in their forum. Results are presented in the main thread however. Also, there's only one forum per side (since I really don't get why there's two forums if the mole can view both and the Handler can relay information between the two).

edit - Each side MUST choose someone to interrogate. They are only allowed to vote for one of their own agents (by code name). Once they've triple interrogated the Mole, the mole is whacked (removed from the forum) and they won't need to interrogate anymore.

Of course, the main thread will be stone dead. Again, the problem of having several sides is that they need a common cause (or common foe).

[Lagom Lite]

Or make it so the Handlers can't post in the subforums, and each subforum-team won't know if they're Goldman or Blusterberg - they need to find that out somehow. Interrogation reveals to all the team of the agent (Goldman or Blusterberg). That might remove the stalemate, for a few days at least.