Grundbegriff wrote:silverjon wrote:Depends if you believe that God precludes free will or not.
I am relatively certain that most religious folks do not actually believe this. God doesn't directly control what we do or do not do right now, or the outcomes of it. He observes, and guides if people ask, but he doesn't interfere.
Actually, the field is divided on this issue, both within and without the religious communities. Whether in behalf of libertarian free will, fatalism, or some position between them, genuine intellectual effort has gone into parsing the possibilities.
Compatibilists might say, for example, that God controls our free choices, thereby establishing and actualizing (rather than violating) their genuine freedom. Digging through the semantic muck requires wading farther into ontology than seems appropriate for this sort of thread.
Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man,
but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
There is a story in Acts that, I think, shows the paradox of God's sovereignty and free will. Paul is headed to Rome on a ship with a bunch of soldiers, guards, and prisoners. A bad storm hits and after many days they begin to lose hope. Paul receives a message from an angel, "Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar. And behold, God has granted you all those who sail with you." (Acts 27:24)
So God has spoken and told Paul in no uncertain terms that everyone will make it. But as we move on in the story we find a curious occurrence.
And fearing that we might run on the rocks, they let down four anchors from the stern and prayed for day to come. 30 And as the sailors were seeking to escape from the ship, and had lowered the ship's boat into the sea under pretense of laying out anchors from the bow, 31
Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved.” 32 Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the ship's boat and let it go. (Acts 27:29-32)
Paul places a condition upon the salvation of the men. If they leave the boat, they die. So, did these men have free will? What if one prisoner jumped over board? What if the centurion decided not to listen to Paul? God said that all would survive, so could not Paul have just sat back and let them do whatever they want?
Just because we cannot comprehend how God could be completely sovereign, in control of everything, and yet allow free will to humans, does not mean it is beyond the grasp of an infinite God. There is a comfort in knowing that Someone greater is in control, and yet we cannot be complacent because our choices do matter. The Bible is full of paradoxical type ideas, and impossibilities (the Word becomes flesh - (or God becoming man and yet remaining God) but I for one and quite happy that God is not fully knowable by me, else He wouldn't be very big after all.
Proverbs 16:1-3,9 wrote:1 The plans of the heart belong to man,
but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,
but the LORD weighs the spirit.
3 Commit your work to the LORD,
and your plans will be established.
9 The heart of man plans his way,
but the LORD establishes his steps.