Religion Randomness

For discussion of religion and politics

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Rip »

Isgrimnur wrote:It's progress, but the "religious freedom" aspect is still troubling.
But the church also complained of people being branded “bigots” for speaking for their faith.

“When religious people are publicly intimidated, retaliated against, forced from employment or made to suffer personal loss because they have raised their voice in the public square, donated to a cause or participated in an election, our democracy is the loser,” said Elder Dallin Oaks, a member of the church’s Quorum of Twelve Apostles.
Even with the new nondiscrimination position, they still want to be seen as victims.
If they want that they should convert to Islam. Then they can keep their discrimination and be victims at the same time.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

Pat Robertson may not be a Young Earth Creationist, but alien life isn't possible.
On Wednesday, Pat Robertson spent time on “The 700 Club” telling NASA not to waste money going to Mars or searching for life beyond Earth. Why? Well because in Robertson’s non-expert opinion there’s nothing out there in space besides “barren rocks” and “gaseous balls.”

“This planet is where God has got an experiment in what he wants to have accomplished,” Robertson stated. “But somehow, people want to spend a lot of money to go to Mars! I don’t want to think that Mars is someplace I want to visit, and it would take a lot of money to get there!”
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Kraken »

Because God only has enough funding for one experiment. Duh.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by GreenGoo »

Kraken wrote:Because God only has enough funding for one experiment. Duh.
And it better turn out well enough to be published. His tenure is counting on it.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

GreenGoo wrote:
Kraken wrote:Because God only has enough funding for one experiment. Duh.
And it better turn out well enough to be published. His tenure is counting on it.
The General Motors Playwrights Theater - "The Whole Shebang" with Mark Linn-Baker.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Defiant »

Robertson stated “[...] I don’t want to think[...]”
Edited for truth.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Rip »

So let me get this straight.

If I have a penis but I feel I am a woman I am. Because what society wants to label me as is irrelevant. What is important is what I think I am.

But if I say I am Muslim, I am not unless the rest of the Muslims feel that I am.

:?
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by silverjon »

Sounds like the same kind of quibbling as in other religions.

Catholics: "We're Christian."
[Some] Protestants: "No, you're not!"

Generic Christian: "I live a good life and try to do the right thing."
Fundamentalist: "Not good enough! Hellfire for you!"
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by hepcat »

Rip wrote:So let me get this straight.

If I have a penis but I feel I am a woman I am. Because what society wants to label me as is irrelevant. What is important is what I think I am.

But if I say I am Muslim, I am not unless the rest of the Muslims feel that I am.

:?
White Supremacists often act under the banner of being a Christian group. Do you think other Christians are okay with labeling them as fellow Christians?

In any case, the larger group writes the rules.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Alefroth »

Rip wrote: But if I say I am Muslim, I am not unless the rest of the Muslims feel that I am.
:?
Incorrect. Is that straight enough?
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Defiant »

hepcat wrote:
Rip wrote:So let me get this straight.

If I have a penis but I feel I am a woman I am. Because what society wants to label me as is irrelevant. What is important is what I think I am.

But if I say I am Muslim, I am not unless the rest of the Muslims feel that I am.

:?
White Supremacists often act under the banner of being a Christian group. Do you think other Christians are okay with labeling them as fellow Christians?

In any case, the larger group writes the rules.

OK, first of all, there's a difference between your biological sex and your gender identity. If have a penis, your sex is male. Your gender identity may differ from your sex, however.

As to religion, I would say that is dependent on if your beliefs match the core beliefs of that religion over the past hundreds or thousands of years.

And I think most Christians would be fine with calling terrorists who fight for Christianity as Christian extremists (if perhaps not "fellow" Christians)
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Rip »

hepcat wrote:
Rip wrote:So let me get this straight.

If I have a penis but I feel I am a woman I am. Because what society wants to label me as is irrelevant. What is important is what I think I am.

But if I say I am Muslim, I am not unless the rest of the Muslims feel that I am.

:?
White Supremacists often act under the banner of being a Christian group. Do you think other Christians are okay with labeling them as fellow Christians?

In any case, the larger group writes the rules.
Why should they care. They don't seem to mind the crusaders being identified as Christians. Vlad The Impaler was Catholic.

I would say that the people who perpetrated evil on the world and did so in the name of religion have caused good reflection among those religions to try to combat their religions being used for inexcusable killing. I know accepting the crusades for what they were has had a huge positive effect on Christian faiths to turn away from the hatred that lead to them.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by hepcat »

Defiant wrote:
And I think most Christians would be fine with calling terrorists who fight for Christianity as Christian extremists (if perhaps not "fellow" Christians)
"Think" and "most" are not words you want to hear in situations like the war on extremists. If there is a possibility that you could alienate allies or give the enemy material for propaganda by using a certain term, what harm is done by avoiding that term?
Rip wrote:
Why should they care. They don't seem to mind the crusaders being identified as Christians. Vlad The Impaler was Catholic.
As I noted before when you brought up the crusades in a similar discussion, when Doc Brown takes us all back there, I'll give that argument some weight.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

GreenGoo wrote:
Kraken wrote:Because God only has enough funding for one experiment. Duh.
And it better turn out well enough to be published. His tenure is counting on it.
Does God not have a control group? God sucks as science.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by silverjon »

Blackhawk wrote:[Does God not have a control group? God sucks as science.
I still haven't found spontaneously generated life in any jar of peanut butter I've ever opened, and I am very disappointed.
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Rip »

Russian opposition politician Boris Nemtsov was shot to death in central Moscow late Friday.
President Putin was immediately informed of Nemtsov's assassination, according to Presidential Press Secretary Dmitriy Peskov. According to him, Putin expressed deep condolences to Nemtsov's family and loved ones. The president thinks the murder was a contract killing meant to be a political provocation, Peskov said.
Nice.

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150228/1018865497.html
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Holman »

Putin: "Is false flag, obviously! You agree, da? [uncontrollable chuckling]"

Also: wrong thread?
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Rip »

Holman wrote:Putin: "Is false flag, obviously! You agree, da? [uncontrollable chuckling]"

Also: wrong thread?
Crap, oh well I will post it there as well.

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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Moliere »

Holman wrote:Putin: "Is false flag, obviously! You agree, da? [uncontrollable chuckling]"

Also: wrong thread?
Putin has become a cult of personality. So it could go here too.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Defiant »

hepcat wrote:
"Think" and "most" are not words you want to hear in situations like the war on extremists. If there is a possibility that you could alienate allies or give the enemy material for propaganda by using a certain term, what harm is done by avoiding that term?
The harm is that it is an enabler of self deception , that the Muslim community is completely divorced from the issue of extremists and terrorism.

The Muslim community needs to recognize that there are extremist Muslims (be they Isis or Wahhabists or those who violently protested against Danish cartoonists or those who strongly support them or etc.) and we shouldn't mollycoddle them. They need to address the problem of those that want to hijack their religion.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by hepcat »

Defiant wrote:
The harm is that it is an enabler of self deception , that the Muslim community is completely divorced from the issue of extremists and terrorism.

The Muslim community needs to recognize that there are extremist Muslims (be they Isis or Wahhabists or those who violently protested against Danish cartoonists or those who strongly support them or etc.) and we shouldn't mollycoddle them. They need to address the problem of those that want to hijack their religion.
They're constantly reminded by every act of barbaric extremism on the part of those who are committing these crimes. The Muslim community is no more divorced from the issue of extremism or terror than you are. And those that abhor those actions are making their voices heard in protest and on social media. Are there some that aren't sure what side they're on? Of course. And that's why we have to fight this war against extremism with more care than we have in other wars. As I said, the most important front for this conflict can be found in the realm of ideology.

Here's what the extremists want to hear: "America is waging a war against Islamic extremists." Because they then point at the word Islamic and scream, "They're waging a war against Islam!"

The administration is rightly avoiding that and thus not handing them the ammo they want for their extensive campaign of propaganda.
Last edited by hepcat on Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Rip »

Anyone who looks at a group who beheads/burns alive Christians and Jews without being sure of what side they are on, is the enemy. That is part of the problem. We are viewing only those who do it as the enemy but in reality anyone who doesn't immediately know they are opposed to whatever group would do that is an enemy. There is no position where you can be torn because of their plight like the Palestinians, the actions of these people is utterly indefensible.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by hepcat »

Personally, I think showing them we're not the enemy they're being told we are, and having them either join us in our fight against ISIS and other terrorist groups, or at the very least not supporting them is the better bet for a long term solution.

Of course, any attempt to do so will be denounced by you and those like you as appeasement. The inevitable Neville Chamberlain comparison will come up. But that's to be expected. These atrocities we're seeing on the news every night are going to cause outrage, and emotions are going to run high. That's why I'm glad we have an administration that is applying some thought to how they act.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Rip »

hepcat wrote:Personally, I think showing them we're not the enemy they're being told we are, and having them either join us in our fight against ISIS and other terrorist groups, or at the very least not supporting them is the better bet for a long term solution.

Of course, any attempt to do so will be denounced by you and those like you as appeasement. The inevitable Neville Chamberlain comparison will come up. But that's to be expected. These atrocities we're seeing on the news every night are going to cause outrage, and emotions are going to run high. That's why I'm glad we have an administration that is applying some thought to how they act.
I think we don't need to show them we aren't the enemy. The fact that we aren't lining up Muslims and hanging and burning them should pretty much show that.

In the end the thought that people who would consider going to join them would be talked into instead joining us in fighting against them is incredibly naive. You may be able to talk them out of joining ISIS, but a person who would even consider doing so will pretty much never join the fight against them.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by hepcat »

Having them not join the fight on ISIS' side is no small victory in itself. ISIS relies very heavily on recruits.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

Rip wrote:I think we don't need to show them we aren't the enemy. The fact that we aren't lining up Muslims and hanging and burning them should pretty much show that.
Let's see, in Guantanamo Bay we're torturing and killing muslims, even if they are innocent. Our Drones have killed maybe 100 targeted terrorists and over 1,000 civilians in countries with which we are not at war, including our own citizens. Not to mention Abu Ghraib.

If you can take off the blinders for a moment and try to perceive our actions from their point of view, the idea that we're being so nice to Muslims is rather ludicrous when we've been bombing Muslims on a daily basis for over a decade, and have likely been submitting them to torture for the better part of the past 14 years.

And that's just the stuff we've admitted publicly.

Have we shown forbearance? Sure - in our minds. But that doesn't mean that daily bombings aren't doing a lot of damage to our enemy/friend status, nor does it mean that they aren't much more likely to listen to lies about our barbarism and terror after witnessing our bombings (perhaps losing friends and family members in the process), and seeing the photographs of us torturing them, etc.

From the point of view of Joe Blow over there, it's possible to believe that we're not that much better than ISIS, and if you take into account the religious aspects, we can come off as much worse than ISIS to someone with a martyr complex who has been oppressed and driven towards radicalism by governments and corrupt officials who we have supported.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Defiant »

Pyperkub wrote:. Our Drones have killed maybe 100 targeted terrorists and over 1,000 civilians in countries with which we are not at war, including our own citizens.
Eh?
Pakistan 2004–2015
CIA Drone Strikes

Most recent strike:
January 28 2015

Total strikes: 413
Obama strikes: 362
Total killed: 2,438-3,942
Civilians killed: 416-959
Children killed: 168-204
Injured: 1,142-1,720
link
396
total strikes
2227 - 3612
total killed
258 - 307
civilians killed
1770 - 2971
militants killed
199 - 334
unknown killed
link

This suggests that the civilian casualty rate is closer to 10-40% than 90%
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Rip »

Pyperkub wrote:
Rip wrote:I think we don't need to show them we aren't the enemy. The fact that we aren't lining up Muslims and hanging and burning them should pretty much show that.
Let's see, in Guantanamo Bay we're torturing and killing muslims, even if they are innocent. Our Drones have killed maybe 100 targeted terrorists and over 1,000 civilians in countries with which we are not at war, including our own citizens. Not to mention Abu Ghraib.
Has nothing to do with them being Muslim. It is because they are terrorists.

If you can take off the blinders for a moment and try to perceive our actions from their point of view, the idea that we're being so nice to Muslims is rather ludicrous when we've been bombing Muslims on a daily basis for over a decade, and have likely been submitting them to torture for the better part of the past 14 years.

And that's just the stuff we've admitted publicly.
See you are doing what you decry in this case. It is because they are terrorists. We bomb or torture no one simply because they are Muslim. You are trying to equate two things that are no where close to the same.

Have we shown forbearance? Sure - in our minds. But that doesn't mean that daily bombings aren't doing a lot of damage to our enemy/friend status, nor does it mean that they aren't much more likely to listen to lies about our barbarism and terror after witnessing our bombings (perhaps losing friends and family members in the process), and seeing the photographs of us torturing them, etc.

From the point of view of Joe Blow over there, it's possible to believe that we're not that much better than ISIS, and if you take into account the religious aspects, we can come off as much worse than ISIS to someone with a martyr complex who has been oppressed and driven towards radicalism by governments and corrupt officials who we have supported.
We have attacked no one because they were Muslim. If they are driven to radicalism by corrupt governments and officials, then attack them. Not many of their victims have been because they were corrupt officials or because they had oppressed them. They did it and continue to simply because they are not Muslims or are Muslims who failed to hate non-Muslims enough to satisfy the terrorists.

You are trying to take a religiously motivated group and analyze them with your secular motives. Their motives are clear and have been stated many times. They desire apocalyptic times because they believe that will bring about old school Islam dominating the globe. Until we realize that we will never be effective at combating them.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

So the people who have died in our custody in Guantanamo Bay who we know to be innocent, are Terrorists? And if not, then why were they tortured and murdered? Because they were not Muslims? Hmmm. Who decided they were terrorists and disappeared them without a trial? Hmmm.

Yes, I extrapolated the 959 civilian number that I had seen (data as of a different date, and referenced only in Pakistan) to more than 1000.

Rip - who defines "Terrorist" - to you they are all terrorists, even just the regular prisoners at Aby Ghraib.

What I am trying to illustrate to you, is that while you may see all of these people we've killed as "Terrorists", for most of them, it has never been proven, and in fact we've admitted that that many of them were not "Terrorists".

As such, for someone who lives in the area, we may not be perceived as the good guys, but rather the bringers of random death from above.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Rip »

Pyperkub wrote:So the people who have died in our custody in Guantanamo Bay who we know to be innocent, are Terrorists? And if not, then why were they tortured and murdered? Because they were not Muslims? Hmmm. Who decided they were terrorists and disappeared them without a trial? Hmmm.

Yes, I extrapolated the 959 civilian number that I had seen (data as of a different date, and referenced only in Pakistan) to more than 1000.

Rip - who defines "Terrorist" - to you they are all terrorists, even just the regular prisoners at Aby Ghraib.

What I am trying to illustrate to you, is that while you may see all of these people we've killed as "Terrorists", for most of them, it has never been proven, and in fact we've admitted that that many of them were not "Terrorists".

As such, for someone who lives in the area, we may not be perceived as the good guys, but rather the bringers of random death from above.
It is admitted that a lot of people in our own jails are innocent. No system of justice is perfect . I would say you are throwing the most and many adjectives around with reckless abandon.

One thing is certain you can apply most to which victims of ISIS and other terror organizations are innocents. If it was all about attacking military bases and governments stuff. I could understand that some could be drawn to them.

Anyone who lives in the area knows we go through great lengths to avoid killing civilians while the terrorists go through great lengths to put them in peril. To the point of hiding their weapons if not themselves amongst them, simply because they know as well that we have no desire to kill innocents.

As far as I am concerned anyone who would join a group like that is already dead, they just don't know it yet.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Defiant »

Pyperkub wrote: Yes, I extrapolated the 959 civilian number that I had seen (data as of a different date, and referenced only in Pakistan) to more than 1000.
The problem wasn't the civilian number, but rather than ratio of civilian to militant. Yours was way, way off.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Zarathud »

Not surprisingly, that attitude will make them feel the same way about you.

If your family member is a civilian who is killed, the ratio doesn't matter a lot. If we're talking ratios, the repeated U.S. strikes against Islamic targets are much less "random" than the mass murder in a French deli. They don't know we have no desire to kill innocents, and Al Jazeera serves up the same ratings-chasing misinformation to the Muslim world as FOX News does to America.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Defiant »

hepcat wrote: They're constantly reminded by every act of barbaric extremism on the part of those who are committing these crimes. The Muslim community is no more divorced from the issue of extremism or terror than you are. And those that abhor those actions are making their voices heard in protest and on social media.
To be sure, the actions ISIS has caused much of the Muslim world to unite against Isis. But it's important to remember that ISIS is not the sole expression of Islamic extremism. One can easily condemn ISIS while supporting other extremists.

And even being reminded of the barbaric extremism means that they acknowledge that it is Islamic extremism (or that there is such a thing, eg, “There is no Islamic terror” -Erdogan). Conspiracy theories abound blaming Israel, the US or the West:

http://time.com/2992269/isis-is-an-amer ... says-iran/
http://blog.adl.org/international/claim ... slim-world
http://blog.adl.org/international/egypt ... eated-isis
http://www.jta.org/2015/01/14/news-opin ... lobby-plot
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opi ... 821282.ece
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08 ... 77687.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 51024.html
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/10/10/la ... -settlers/
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Confl ... raq-385532
http://www.jta.org/2014/08/13/news-opin ... conspiracy

Like I said, self deception.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

Defiant wrote:
Pyperkub wrote: Yes, I extrapolated the 959 civilian number that I had seen (data as of a different date, and referenced only in Pakistan) to more than 1000.
The problem wasn't the civilian number, but rather than ratio of civilian to militant. Yours was way, way off.
Depends on the counting - here's the Guardian from November 2014 looking at that data with a finer grain:
41 men targeted but 1,147 people killed: US drone strikes – the facts on the ground...

...A new analysis of the data available to the public about drone strikes, conducted by the human-rights group Reprieve, indicates that even when operators target specific individuals – the most focused effort of what Barack Obama calls “targeted killing” – they kill vastly more people than their targets, often needing to strike multiple times. Attempts to kill 41 men resulted in the deaths of an estimated 1,147 people, as of 24 November.

Reprieve, sifting through reports compiled by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, examined cases in which specific people were targeted by drones multiple times. Their data, shared with the Guardian, raises questions about the accuracy of US intelligence guiding strikes that US officials describe using words like “clinical” and “precise.”
So, it's the same data source, but allegedly looking at who we were targeting but also how many times we missed the same targets, I guess.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Defiant »

Except that that study doesn't distinguish between civilians and non-civilians, and only looks at a "fraction of those killed by US drones overall", so I would argue that it's less finely grained, at least in terms of civilians vs militants. Another tally they cite, that does do the above, lists three studies (including the two I listed) and puts that number at 6-24%.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

Defiant wrote:
Except that that study doesn't distinguish between civilians and non-civilians, and only looks at a "fraction of those killed by US drones overall", so I would argue that it's less finely grained, at least in terms of civilians vs militants. Another tally they cite, that does do the above, lists three studies (including the two I listed) and puts that number at 6-24%.
I'm open to suggestions on changing the wording.

The point I'm trying to get through (to Rip, especially) is that the strikes are not 100% precise, and that we are killing people we shouldn't be killing in a certain number of our drone strikes, and that the distinctions in those numbers are wide open to being propagandized in order to drive more people to ISIS and other groups like them.

The friends, families and acquaintances of the civilians killed are all far more likely not to see us as good guys, or as fighting terrorists, but rather indiscriminate killers.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Defiant
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Defiant »

Pyperkub wrote: I'm open to suggestions on changing the wording.
Well, I would say our drone strikes do a good job of killing terrorists, but do a bad job of killing specific terrorists.

The point I'm trying to get through (to Rip, especially) is that the strikes are not 100% precise, and that we are killing people we shouldn't be killing in a certain number of our drone strikes, and that the distinctions in those numbers are wide open to being propagandized in order to drive more people to ISIS and other groups like them.
Our strikes aren't 100% precise, but in the history of warfare, they are historically low. Honestly, we could kill zero civilians, the bombing of people in another country - even if justified - would still be (understandably) angering to the people of that country. The question is, if a country is unwilling or unable to stop terrorists that are based in that country, do you go after them yourself at the risk of angering it's population? The administration's answer is yes.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

A qualified yes. I don't seem to recall any drone strikes in Saudi Arabia for example, and I don't think we've struck any in Gaza or Iran either.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Religion Randomness

Post by hepcat »

Defiant wrote:
hepcat wrote: They're constantly reminded by every act of barbaric extremism on the part of those who are committing these crimes. The Muslim community is no more divorced from the issue of extremism or terror than you are. And those that abhor those actions are making their voices heard in protest and on social media.
To be sure, the actions ISIS has caused much of the Muslim world to unite against Isis. But it's important to remember that ISIS is not the sole expression of Islamic extremism. One can easily condemn ISIS while supporting other extremists.

Like I said, self deception.
You're attempting to expand the discussion to now include expressions of antisemitism. I was under the impression we were discussing the extremists we're at war with. Recent polls show rather large parts of the world have disturbing rates of antisemitism. Should we refer to them as extremists too and lump them in with ISIS?

In any case, I still believe my point is valid. And I've yet to read any reason that tacking the word "Islamic" onto every mention of extremism helps make Muslims any more aware of ISIS or terrorists in general, or that they should oppose their acts. While not doing so may very well help some to dispense with a belief that this is a war against Islam by the west.

As for the conspiracy theories you listed in your links, those existed long before ISIS and have more to do with U.S. and Israeli policies than they do Islam. There are quite a few Americans who still believe 9/11 was a hoax too.

edit: NPR had a piece on extremists in Syria and surrounding areas this morning and they made me realize that we're actually giving them what they want by referring to them as ISIS: a sense of legitimacy. NPR actually refers to them as "militants of the self described Islamic State of Iraq and Syria".
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Re: Religion Randomness

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hepcat wrote: You're attempting to expand the discussion to now include expressions of antisemitism.
You're missing the point entirely. Those that believe in a scapegoat ("It's all a western plot!") are performing self deception, rather than acknowledging that there is an Islamic nature to the extremism.

There needs to be a struggle within Islam against those who try to hijack it towards extremism. And that struggle wont be fought if leaders stick their heads in the sands, blind themselves to the Islamic nature of the extremism and just claim that it's all a western plot.
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