Going back to work in the videogame industry

[Butterknife]

I just accepted a job in the videogame industry.

First, a recap: I found Gonegold years ago and some of you particularly old farts may remember me getting my first job in the videogame industry in 2000. The company I worked for (Saffire) almost went under after September 11th, laying off 90% of their workforce including yours truly. Working conditions near the end were incredibly poor -- definitely a horror story few would believe.

Afterwards I and a fellow ex-employee started a new company (Sensory Sweep). The company continues today and does well as far as I know, however I was shoved out in a power struggle with some harsh feelings on both sides.

Because of the negative experiences, I vowed never to make videogames again. The economy was still poor, but I found a stable 9-5 low-paying job programming for an audit company, which brings us up to a couple weeks ago when a recruiter talked me into reconsidering my feelings.

Anyway, short story long -- I start on Monday. I am a bit apprehensive about the industry in general, but I am optimistic that this particular job will be different. The pay is very good (my primary reason for accepting the position). I am definitely excited to be working on games again, but at the same time I'm sure I'll be playing them less (and probably buying more of them) due to the job. Games will certainly be more challenging and fun to work on than auditing software.

I'm not sure what I can say at this point but I'll be working on a AAA funded title (this one is well-funded, possibly one of the most) coming out for all next-gen platforms and the PC. Ships for Christmas I believe, so I will obviously be entering a project that is already far into the development schedule.

I wish I could find the old thread where I slammed working in the game industry and how poor the conditions there were ... I think I was arguing with someone working at Tilted Mill, but possibly kathode had something to say. I don't really remember. Anyway, I'm prepared to eat my own words and we'll see how it goes.

[JSL]

Good luck Butterknife! I hope your experiences improve. It seems that the game industry is not a good place to work unless you can give it a lot of time and are willing to accept less than perfect working conditions, but perhaps you have finally found a company that does value its employees!

[killbot737]

AAA title? Promises of great working conditions?

I hope your new company doesn't have the letters E and A featured prominently in their name!

[The Meal]

Your "gaming company" is my industry's "startup!" My first job was for a company in a startup mode and I worked long hours for little compensation, but had a blast at work and accomplished more than I ever though I could. We worked hard and played hard and it was a very fun enviornment. Now that I've got a family I don't think I could put myself into that sort of uncertainty, but I can understand the appeal.

Best of luck and I hope it works out well for you. AAA-funded development has to be better than the alternative, at least as far as job security goes.

Let us know what you can,

~Neal

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Come on, give us the name of the game!

Is it Oblivion? Are you working on Oblivion? It's Oblivion, right? My guess is Oblivion. I hope it's Oblivion - is it? It's got to be Oblivion, doesn't it? Sounds like Oblivion.

[Kraken]

Because of the negative experiences, I vowed never to make videogames again. (...) I am a bit apprehensive about the industry in general, but I am optimistic that this particular job will be different.

I might be the Tilted Mill guy that you were talking to. I vowed to get out of the industry after being laid off from there last November. So far I've had no luck changing careers, but I have not yet given up.

May your new job bring you satisfaction and lucre, may your games be fun, and may you dodge all the frustrating aspects of the industry.

[Butterknife]

Thanks all of you for the well-wishes. Getting a new job is always scary and exciting at the same time.

I hope your new company doesn't have the letters E and A featured prominently in their name!

Hopefully I'm not narrowing the field too much by saying I'm not working for EA. Thank goodness.

Is it Oblivion? Are you working on Oblivion? It's Oblivion, right? My guess is Oblivion. I hope it's Oblivion - is it? It's got to be Oblivion, doesn't it? Sounds like Oblivion.

Don't I wish! Oblivion is probably my most anticipated game coming out. Of course, working on a game tends to make you far less interested in playing it ... so maybe that's a good thing as I really want to play this one. Something about spending 40 hours (or 50, or 60 ...) a week playing the same unfinished game for months or years on end tends to make playing the completed product less than exciting, at least in my experience.

Let us know what you can

Once I know what I can and cannot say, I'll let you guys know. I know I've deliberately been a bit ambiguous.

[Butterknife]

Because of the negative experiences, I vowed never to make videogames again. (...) I am a bit apprehensive about the industry in general, but I am optimistic that this particular job will be different.

I might be the Tilted Mill guy that you were talking to. I vowed to get out of the industry after being laid off from there last November. So far I've had no luck changing careers, but I have not yet given up.

May your new job bring you satisfaction and lucre, may your games be fun, and may you dodge all the frustrating aspects of the industry.

You know Ironrod, I think it was you. Out of curiosity, are you currently at another videogame company now after being laid off in November? Or are you unemployed? (I went quite a while unemployed after leaving the industry, 5 months actually but it seemed like 5 years. Nobody wanted an ex-video game programmer).

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Ok, I can figure this out. An AAA game coming out by Christmas and for all next-gen systems. Time to do a bit of sleuthing.

[Daehawk]

Auto Assault...unless its not for next gen systems

[Kraken]

Out of curiosity, are you currently at another videogame company now after being laid off in November? Or are you unemployed? (I went quite a while unemployed after leaving the industry, 5 months actually but it seemed like 5 years. Nobody wanted an ex-video game programmer).

I am unemployed. I'm trying to transition into a writing and editing career, and finding it hard to break in at my age, with my marginal credentials and few inside contacts. I'm also toying with business ideas. Either way, I've had my fill of the games biz.

[Beer Goggles]

Hope it is not EA.

[Kelric]

Ok, I can figure this out. An AAA game coming out by Christmas and for all next-gen systems. Time to do a bit of sleuthing.

Still waiting...

[ChrisGrenard]

He lives in Utah, that may help you narrow it down.

[KingB]

Hey Butterknife, what part of Utah are you in?



Edit: Forgot the question mark.

[Kobra]

Working in the Game industry blows.. I'm all but out of it now.

Stardock was the last game company I worked for in the PC game industry, and holy shit did they suck ass to work for. They rank up there with the worst companies i've ever worked for in my life.

[Grifman]

Working in the Game industry blows.. I'm all but out of it now.

Stardock was the last game company I worked for in the PC game industry, and holy shit did they suck ass to work for. They rank up there with the worst companies i've ever worked for in my life.

Ah, that explains alot . . .

[Kobra]

Ah, that explains alot . . .

and how so? Since the early eighties i've been involved in some way, with the video/computer game industry. Early on in the design/programming level. Later in the executive level, marketing and project management.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend the industry to anyone. It is filled with sweatshops packed with tired, long hour, fairly low pay employees slaving for the corporate master.

Man it makes me nauseated just thinking about it.

[Peacedog]

and how so?

He's probably referring to some of your past commentary concerning Stardock.

[edosan]

Since "industry people" are reading this thread:

No more jumping puzzles! No one likes them.

That is all.

[Cesare]

Because of the negative experiences, I vowed never to make videogames again.

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."

I hear you man.. I swore I was done with the industry after dealing with a particularly disastrous project, which was followed by the company collapsing. This past month has found me working a demo so I can weasel my way back in.

Six months ago I could honestly say that most of my former co-workers were no longer making games (many of them had made similar vows)... I can no longer say that. The love/hate thing just seems to be part of the package.

[Dirt]

Personally, I wouldn't recommend the industry to anyone. It is filled with sweatshops packed with tired, long hour, fairly low pay employees slaving for the corporate master.

Sweatshop? Check
Long hours? Check
Low pay? Check

Welcome to the ratrace. You've just described corporate America.

I'm sorry, I'm tired of people making the games industry into some great evil. It's just like any other company and industry.

I remember reading about how somebody was complaining that low to mid-level programmers were working 60 hour weeks being paid $80,000/year. The guy hasn't seen the banking/financial industry. 3 years ago, I'd have killed to be making $80,000 for the 60 hour weeks I was working, it would have been alot more worth it. I still know people who work 60 hour weeks being paid around $50,000.

[Kobra]

I remember reading about how somebody was complaining that low to mid-level programmers were working 60 hour weeks being paid $80,000/year. The guy hasn't seen the banking/financial industry. 3 years ago, I'd have killed to be making $80,000 for the 60 hour weeks I was working, it would have been alot more worth it. I still know people who work 60 hour weeks being paid around $50,000.

50-80k? Dang.. Stardock was paying $30,000 a year for game programmers. I remember Brad "Whining" that he was sick of interviewing top game programming talent that "Wanted to be paid rediculous sums like 50K a year".

Give me a break, the average per personal income in the county where Stardock is based is $60,000, and he wants to pay less than half the average - and still get top-quality people?

Then he says that the "Greed" of American programmers, has driven Stardock to outsource 75% of its programming team. I don't call it greed, I called it necessity. We don't live in cardboard boxes and bathe in dirty rivers in this country - people gotta make a decent living. That logic escaped Brad at Stardock and it annoyed me to no end.

[Butterknife]

Hey Butterknife, what part of Utah are you in?

I live in Midvale, but plan to move closer to my new job soon. I'm within commuting distance of every major Utah videogame company, as far as I know. I think there is a spinoff company in St. George, but I'm not sure if they are still in business.

I've been here two days and so far they haven't laid me off. Life is good.

Stardock was paying $30,000 a year for game programmers

30K a year! Hahahaha. What an idiot. You get what you pay for, etc.

No more jumping puzzles! No one likes them

I think the most common misconception I've seen in the game industry is that programmers get to make decisions about game design. For the record, I'm a programmer -- I'm just responsible to make things work. Not many places listen when you start saying silly things like "Take out the jumping puzzle". After all, you're just a programmer, what do you know about it? These days I don't even try to comment on game design decisions.

[Grifman]

and how so?

He's probably referring to some of your past commentary concerning Stardock.

Bingo.

[Kobra]

I'm just responsible to make things work. Not many places listen when you start saying silly things like "Take out the jumping puzzle". After all, you're just a programmer, what do you know about it? These days I don't even try to comment on game design decisions.

Thats exactly right.. These things usually fall on the project director (I did a bit of this), or to the concept department if they have one, or focus groups. Or if you are working for EA - the marketing department.

The 30K thing wasn't a joke. Of course he now outsources 80-90% of his tasks to overseas sweatshops and then complains US programmers are "Greedy" for wanting a fair wage. For some ungodly reason people think Stardock is "One of the Good companies", when the harsh reality is - they are a typical greedy corporation (outsourcing and all).

Here is a blog + comments on that very subject of him saying this and more.

http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=67503

[KingB]

Hey Butterknife, what part of Utah are you in?

I live in Midvale, but plan to move closer to my new job soon. I'm within commuting distance of every major Utah videogame company, as far as I know. I think there is a spinoff company in St. George, but I'm not sure if they are still in business.

I've been here two days and so far they haven't laid me off. Life is good.

I didnt know there were a lot of major gaming companies in Utah. Who knew.

[jpinard]

Hey Butterknife, what part of Utah are you in?

I live in Midvale, but plan to move closer to my new job soon. I'm within commuting distance of every major Utah videogame company, as far as I know. I think there is a spinoff company in St. George, but I'm not sure if they are still in business.

I've been here two days and so far they haven't laid me off. Life is good.

I didnt know there were a lot of major gaming companies in Utah. Who knew.

yea me either...

[Turtle]

Since we've got veterans here on this board. As a student animator and illustrator, any tips for getting a decent job in the industry that's not a horrifying experience like you guys have had?

My college is good for info about the animation and illustration business in general, but they've only started with interactive media/gaming career specifics.

[Kraken]

As a student animator and illustrator, any tips for getting a decent job in the industry that's not a horrifying experience like you guys have had?

In my very limited experience making strategy games, artists were generally nine-to-fivers with predictable workloads. They had to put in some overtime, but weren't usually caught up in the same deathmarch that burns out so many programmers, QA people, designers and producers. The pay is decent and the hours aren't bad as long as you grind it out on schedule and to specification. Because their work was so visible, they did reasonably well at bonus time. Most of the artists I knew seemed reasonably content with their jobs, not griping any louder than everybody does. They aren't as expendable as other specialties and didn't usually fear the axe between projects. A talented senior artist might even get to contribute to the creative process. All in all, they had it pretty good.

Things are probably different in companies whose games make graphics the primary focus.

[Kobra]

They aren't as expendable as other specialties and didn't usually fear the axe between projects. A talented senior artist might even get to contribute to the creative process. All in all, they had it pretty good.

I concur on these points. Most game companies have the same artists for years. They have a aura of "Job Security" around them. If they are good, they are in high demand anyway so losing a position means little. Pay wise, most i've seen make about the same as programmers - but when crunch time hits the artists seldom work overtime because their work has usually already been completed. The programers just have to crunch to put together the pieces.

In general, they seemed pretty cushy in their jobs, and sometimes had an air of arrogance surrounding them - because they know it is unlikely they will be cut once a project is finished. (as he said above).

[edosan]

Thats exactly right. These things usually fall on the project director (I did a bit of this), or to the concept department if they have one, or focus groups. Or if you are working for EA - the marketing department.

That's comforting to hear. Every good thing in the world has come about because of focus groups and marketing departments.

[Cesare]

Thats exactly right. These things usually fall on the project director (I did a bit of this), or to the concept department if they have one, or focus groups. Or if you are working for EA - the marketing department.

That's comforting to hear. Every good thing in the world has come about because of focus groups and marketing departments.

Christ.. don't even get me started.

It's great when marketing has control over high-level design decisions, for example, deciding that the latest game in a series that has always been a TB/RTS hybrid has to be entirely in real-time, because RTS games sell better than TB games.

[Remus West]

I have a student interested in becoming a game designer. Any advise for what to tell him? He is 17 and a junior in high school.

[Kraken]

Designer is tough. Everybody has a design. There are at least 100 great games that don't get made for every mediocre one that does, and probably as many would-be designers for every one who can make a living at it. Trying to break into the industry as a designer will be very difficult.

He should think from a commercial/marketing point of view, because marketing decides what gets funded. Most likely he'll be hired as a level designer or QA person, and start out doing scenarios or levels. That can eventually progress to a lead design role, after a few years and a couple of successful games. If he ever really wants to call the shots, he'll probably have to start his own company. A few business classes would be a good idea. Also: a designer's main output is documents. Good writing skills are critical. Verbal presentation skills are way up there, too. He definitely needs to be an analytical thinker. Getting some levels using commercial game editors distributed on fansites, and working on popular game mods, is great (unpaid) career training.

[Turtle]

Let me give this to him as a college student who at once, in high school, thought I could actually design games as a living.

He should think more about getting practicaly skills in either business or one of the various game related fields such as art (my specialty), programming, sound, etc...

Honestly, from what all my instructors tell me, there's no real Game Designer position in most companies, save for the big ones. The goal is to be a big part of the design process, or have enough business savvy to start your own company.

I'm not as business savvy, so my education goal is to become expertly skilled in both 2D illustration and 3D animation. By expert, I mean I want people to know my art and my name across the industry. By becoming this good at my art, I can take higher and higher positions in the art chain, hopefully nabbing a senior art director position or similar.

In this position, I can make a great deal of decisions about how the game looks, and in a way, affect the overall game itself.

With prestige backing me up, companies would be more willing to listen to an idea I had for a game design, especially if I could present them with demo reels, concept illustrations, and various visual examples of what the game looks like. Thus, completing my goal to design games as a living, yet all in a practical way.

Of course, this is all many, many years into my career, but it's nice to have something to shoot for.

Likewise, if he went with business, he could simply hire some concept artists, write the design documents, and fund his own small company.

A varied education beyond his chosen field is good. Before I went into art, I learned C and some C++ programming, so I can think structurally. I also regularly write creative fiction, along with random design documents for anything that pops into my head. Having these skills can give you a leg up.

[Fubeca]

Wow... as I read the title of this thread, I was thinking, "wow, that's just like some guy that just started at work". As I read more, I realized it was the same guy.

I also returned to the game industry for this job. Had only had a brief 6 month stint before as a contractor for this studio back in 2002, and have otherwise been in apps for 10 years. The company we hired on at is the ONLY game company I was interested in hiring on at.. they're great to their employees, have been around for a long while, and hold the belief that ~40 hrs week is more efficient than an 80 hr week.

Been lurkin' for a while... still recovering from the sadness that GG is gone.

[Faldarian]

As someone who has been in the game playing industry since the early '80, here's best of luck to you and the new project