The Art of the Donald Trumpocalypse

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:57 pm

tgb wrote:Is it Godwinizing to point out that his supporters are starting to act like brownshirts?

Watch your ass or I will put you on the list.

http://www.france24.com/en/20151122-tru ... oarding-us

How long can you tread breathe water?

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:15 pm

New poll of NH GOP voters gives the lead to...

(drum roll)

Mitt Romney by a landslide! (with Undecided running a firm second).

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:50 pm

I hate to admit it, but given the current pack of misfits, cretins, and flat-Earthers, Romney doesn't seem so bad.

The best of a bad lot, as Holmes would say.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:00 pm

If I had money to throw away, and if I was the betting sort, I'd place a longshot wager on Romney as the white knight at a brokered convention. The longer this drags on without a credible frontrunner, the more likely that seems.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:15 pm

tgb wrote:I hate to admit it, but given the current pack of misfits, cretins, and flat-Earthers, Romney doesn't seem so bad.

Yep, he's even electable. If I thought there was some overarching power in charge of everything, I would say this was a brilliant strategy. Instead it might just happen by accident.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:22 pm

I believe Trump just announced that a party-engineered rescue scheme would lead him to mount an independent bid.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:29 pm

Holman wrote:I believe Trump just announced that a party-engineered rescue scheme would lead him to mount an independent bid.

So he's determined to lead them into defeat one way or another. They can only hope that the voters will take him down in the primaries.

Teggy · Post by **Teggy** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:34 am

What if Trump is just running some sort of Brewster's Millions campaign, but people still want to vote for him so his only option is to say crazier and crazier things each day?

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:57 am

So now it seems Trump wants to register Muslims so he can find them and torture them. He is starting to lose his funny...what's next, concentration camps?

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:50 pm

Jeff V wrote:So now it seems Trump wants to register Muslims so he can find them and torture them. He is starting to lose his funny...what's next, concentration camps?

First he needs to seed the ground with a little revisionist history:

A US mayor has said businessman Donald Trump "is plain wrong" in claiming Arabs in his city cheered the attacks of 9/11.

Mr Trump, who is running for president, said he saw "thousands and thousands" of people in New Jersey celebrating. But the mayor of Jersey City said no such thing happened and accused the Republican of "shameful politicising". Mr Trump, who leads his party's race for the White House, has also urged increased surveillance of Muslims. His comments come after the attacks in Paris which left 130 people dead, and evidence suggesting that some of the attackers used refugee routes to enter the country. Since the attacks, the issue of national security and threat of homegrown terrorism has come to dominate the national political conversation.

"I watched when the World Trade Center came tumbling down," he said at a rally in Alabama. "And I watched in Jersey City, New Jersey, where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down." Asked to explain on a Sunday morning political talk show, the business mogul said: "There were people were cheering on the other side of New Jersey, where you have large Arab populations."

The mayor of Jersey City, Steven Fulop, released a statement later which said: "Trump is plain wrong, and he is shamefully politicising an emotionally charged issue. We were actually among the first to provide responders to help in lower Manhattan."

AWS260 · Post by **AWS260** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:52 pm

Teggy · Post by **Teggy** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:15 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Jeff V wrote:So now it seems Trump wants to register Muslims so he can find them and torture them. He is starting to lose his funny...what's next, concentration camps?
First he needs to seed the ground with a little revisionist history:

Well Ben Carson says he has seen the tapes so it must be true! Tapes so closely guarded the only ones that have seen them are Donald Trump and Ben Carson.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:07 pm

At this point, I just assume that anything Ben Carson "knows" or "remembers" derives from a random forum comment on Glenn Beck's site.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:54 pm

The mayor of Jersey City, Steven Fulop, released a statement later which said: "Trump is plain wrong, and he is shamefully politicising an emotionally charged issue. We were actually among the first to provide responders to help in lower Manhattan."

While he is totally right about Trump, the 'counter' he provides makes me cringe a little too.

"The large Arab populations in NJ couldn't have been cheering for 9/11 because we were among the first to provide responders, so we care a lot. Trump is politicizing 9/11, where we were actually among the first to provide responders to help."

How their early provision of responders is linked to a possibly anti-American Arab community in their midst, I fail to see.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:58 pm

Unagi wrote:
The mayor of Jersey City, Steven Fulop, released a statement later which said: "Trump is plain wrong, and he is shamefully politicising an emotionally charged issue. We were actually among the first to provide responders to help in lower Manhattan."
While he is totally right about Trump, the 'counter' he provides makes me cringe a little too.

"The large Arab populations in NJ couldn't have been cheering for 9/11 because we were among the first to provide responders, so we care a lot. Trump is politicizing 9/11, where we were actually among the first to provide responders to help."

How their early provision of responders is linked to a possibly anti-American Arab community in their midst, I fail to see.

Perhaps they were cheering on the early responders.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:06 pm

Holman wrote:At this point, I just assume that anything Ben Carson "knows" or "remembers" derives from a random forum comment on Glenn Beck's site.

Those forum comments are generally based on the email conspiracy theories which so many of the rabid right accept as truth despite instant debunking from just about any reputable site you'd care to find.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:19 pm

Jaymann wrote:
Unagi wrote:
The mayor of Jersey City, Steven Fulop, released a statement later which said: "Trump is plain wrong, and he is shamefully politicising an emotionally charged issue. We were actually among the first to provide responders to help in lower Manhattan."
While he is totally right about Trump, the 'counter' he provides makes me cringe a little too.

"The large Arab populations in NJ couldn't have been cheering for 9/11 because we were among the first to provide responders, so we care a lot. Trump is politicizing 9/11, where we were actually among the first to provide responders to help."

How their early provision of responders is linked to a possibly anti-American Arab community in their midst, I fail to see.
Perhaps they were cheering on the early responders.

Exactly

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:29 am

ISIS claims responsibility for Donald Trump

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:23 am

Tweeted by Trump

Fake statistics.
Fake source.
neo-Nazi picture.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:11 am

Unagi wrote:While he is totally right about Trump, the 'counter' he provides makes me cringe a little too.

If my memory serves, I think that Trump is actually right about the cheering, he's just wrong about the city. It wasn't Jersey City, but I could have sworn that I remember hearing about cheering in the streets in Paterson. It's not like Paterson is going to come out in his defense though, "Hey man, that was US!".

But it's also possible that I was being fed conservative propaganda at the time, I don't know. Incidentally, this article does seem to suggest that I was fed conservative propaganda at the time.

article wrote:(Some conspiracy Web sites cite a column by controversial blogger and commentator Debbie Schlussel, who is highly critical of Muslims, that makes a reference to an MTV broadcast of protests and riots in Paterson, N.J.; this claim has never been authenticated.) As the Newark Star-Ledger put it in an article on Sept. 18, 2001, “rumors of rooftop celebrations of the attack by Muslims here proved unfounded.”

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:34 am

Moliere wrote:Tweeted by Trump

Fake statistics.
Fake source.
neo-Nazi picture.

Beside the fact that the alleged 2015 statistics are not correct, the quoted source — Crime Statistics Bureau - San Francisco — does not exist. The FBI compiles crime statistics on a yearly basis from 18,500 law enforcement agencies around the nation, including those in the Bay Area.

Charles Johnson of the site Little Green Footballs tracked down the real source of the graphic; it seems to have originated from a Twitter user called CheesedBrit whose avatar is a symbol of a German neo-Nazi group. The user's bio also includes the line "we should have listened to the Austrian chap with the little moustache."

FBI Expanded Homicide Data Table 6 (2014)

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:09 am

Moliere wrote: Fake statistics.
Fake source.
neo-Nazi picture.

Doesn't matter that it's all bullshit. It's out there and it did its job. People will be quoting those stats for years to come.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:18 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Moliere wrote: Fake statistics.
Fake source.
neo-Nazi picture.

Doesn't matter that it's all bullshit. It's out there and it did its job. People will be quoting those stats for years to come.

Yeah, I read a op piece yesterday that explored the difficulty of interviewing the leading Rep nomination who has little use for facts. Trump lies, interviewer refutes as best he can (often very well) and Trump repeats his lies. Trump's "facts" get air time from a seemingly respectable source (leading Rep) on a seemingly respectable show and network. Trump's "facts" become a little more true for lots of people no matter how much evidence is shown to refute them.

It's a catch 22.

I was just thinking this morning how Carson's "facts" seems to be catching up with him, but Trump's "facts" just seem to make him stronger, and quite frankly Trump's "facts" are more outrageous.

This is history in the making. And not the good kind either.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:32 am

GreenGoo wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Moliere wrote: Fake statistics.
Fake source.
neo-Nazi picture.

Doesn't matter that it's all bullshit. It's out there and it did its job. People will be quoting those stats for years to come.
Yeah, I read a op piece yesterday that explored the difficulty of interviewing the leading Rep nomination who has little use for facts. Trump lies, interviewer refutes as best he can (often very well) and Trump repeats his lies. Trump's "facts" get air time from a seemingly respectable source (leading Rep) on a seemingly respectable show and network. Trump's "facts" become a little more true for lots of people no matter how much evidence is shown to refute them.

It's a catch 22.

I was just thinking this morning how Carson's "facts" seems to be catching up with him, but Trump's "facts" just seem to make him stronger, and quite frankly Trump's "facts" are more outrageous.

This is history in the making. And not the good kind either.

It's basic psychology. It's been shown several times that if misinformation is heard first, even if it's completely debunked, many people still accept it as fact.

It's really can't-lose marketing for Trump and anyone else willing to stoop to it.

The main reason that misinformation is sticky, according to the researchers, is that rejecting information actually requires cognitive effort. Weighing the plausibility and the source of a message is cognitively more difficult than simply accepting that the message is true – it requires additional motivational and cognitive resources. If the topic isn’t very important to you or you have other things on your mind, misinformation is more likely to take hold.

Thus far, we have reviewed copious evidence about people’s
inability to update their memories in light of corrective information
and have shown how worldview can override fact and
corrections can backfire.

...

Correcting misinformation is cognitively
indistinguishable from misinforming people to replace
their preexisting correct beliefs. It follows that it is important
for the general public to have a basic understanding of misinformation
effects: Widespread awareness of the fact that people
may “throw mud” because they know it will “stick” is an
important aspect of developing a healthy sense of public skepticism
that will contribute to a well-informed populace.

Some ideas we’ve offered, my coauthor Jason Reifler and I based on our research are for instance to use graphics when possible. Sometimes that’s more effective to conveying evidence than text. There’s also psychological research that suggest that repeating false information can have a reinforcing effect on the misperception. So sometimes people want to say this is the claim and it’s not true and they end up actually reinforcing the claim they’re trying to debunk.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:50 am

Yeah, so the article talked about how normally the media just doesn't allow people like Trump to get air time on serious news/interview programs, except maybe for "gotcha" formated shows.. Conspiracy theorists are great for reality based entertainment tv, but not so good for news programs. Except here you have the current leading republican looking America in the eye and simply lying his ass off. You can't NOT interview a leading politician but you can't give fact impaired people air time either.

The damage Trump is doing is actually more significant than I realized.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:53 am

Here's a rundown on the "American Muslims cheering 9/11" meme.

I'm sure a few sick and hateful individuals did cheer 9/11, but they're no more representative of American Muslims than Westboro Baptist is representative of American Christians.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:36 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Moliere wrote: Fake statistics.
Fake source.
neo-Nazi picture.

Doesn't matter that it's all bullshit. It's out there and it did its job. People will be quoting those stats for years to come.
Yeah, I read a op piece yesterday that explored the difficulty of interviewing the leading Rep nomination who has little use for facts. Trump lies, interviewer refutes as best he can (often very well) and Trump repeats his lies. Trump's "facts" get air time from a seemingly respectable source (leading Rep) on a seemingly respectable show and network. Trump's "facts" become a little more true for lots of people no matter how much evidence is shown to refute them.

It's a catch 22.

I was just thinking this morning how Carson's "facts" seems to be catching up with him, but Trump's "facts" just seem to make him stronger, and quite frankly Trump's "facts" are more outrageous.

This is history in the making. And not the good kind either.

To paraphrase John Hodgman:

Facts, even made up ones, are nevertheless still facts.

When I first read that, I thought he was being funny.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:00 pm

Mr. Trump’s Applause Lies

America has just lived through another presidential campaign week dominated by Donald Trump’s racist lies. Here’s a partial list of false statements: The United States is about to take in 250,000 Syrian refugees; African-Americans are responsible for most white homicides; and during the 9/11 attacks, “thousands and thousands” of people in an unnamed “Arab” community in New Jersey “were cheering as that building was coming down.”

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:10 pm

Jeff V wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Moliere wrote: Fake statistics.
Fake source.
neo-Nazi picture.

Doesn't matter that it's all bullshit. It's out there and it did its job. People will be quoting those stats for years to come.
Yeah, I read a op piece yesterday that explored the difficulty of interviewing the leading Rep nomination who has little use for facts. Trump lies, interviewer refutes as best he can (often very well) and Trump repeats his lies. Trump's "facts" get air time from a seemingly respectable source (leading Rep) on a seemingly respectable show and network. Trump's "facts" become a little more true for lots of people no matter how much evidence is shown to refute them.

It's a catch 22.

I was just thinking this morning how Carson's "facts" seems to be catching up with him, but Trump's "facts" just seem to make him stronger, and quite frankly Trump's "facts" are more outrageous.

This is history in the making. And not the good kind either.
To paraphrase John Hodgman:

Facts, even made up ones, are nevertheless still facts.
When I first read that, I thought he was being funny.

Jaymann's Corollary:

Information, even misinformation, is still information.

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:16 pm

Can anyone on the Right please explain to me the appeal of Donald Trump? Seriously, are the Republican party so unhappy to elect someone that is clearly playing the fear card and outright lying?

Some of the shit coming from Donald Trump is downright frightening. As a black man and a democrat I can vote for a moderate republican ( I voted for Maryland current Republican Governor as his message spoke to me) but the shit spewing from Bush, Carson (still can't believe I worked with this man) and Cruz is just scary.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:28 pm

tru1cy wrote:Can anyone on the Right please explain to me the appeal of Donald Trump? Seriously, are the Republican party so unhappy to elect someone that is clearly playing the fear card and outright lying?

Some of the shit coming from Donald Trump is downright frightening. As a black man and a democrat I can vote for a moderate republican ( I voted for Maryland current Republican Governor as his message spoke to me) but the shit spewing from Bush, Carson (still can't believe I worked with this man) and Cruz is just scary.

He is the anti-establishment thorn. Simple as that. Everyone sick of the Republican establishment that has promised and failed to deliver are interested in pissing in their cereal. No better way to do so than Trump.

The establishment donors banding together in desperation to stop him just gives it more fuel.

If you can't give us someone we can get behind we will vote for someone who pisses you off essentially. I was hoping Rand Paul would be the rebelion candidate but it would appears he wasn't unsettling enough. Hard to compete with Trump and Carson in that arena.

TLDR; Yes, yes they are that unhappy.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:36 pm

Rip wrote:
tru1cy wrote:Can anyone on the Right please explain to me the appeal of Donald Trump? Seriously, are the Republican party so unhappy to elect someone that is clearly playing the fear card and outright lying?

Some of the shit coming from Donald Trump is downright frightening. As a black man and a democrat I can vote for a moderate republican ( I voted for Maryland current Republican Governor as his message spoke to me) but the shit spewing from Bush, Carson (still can't believe I worked with this man) and Cruz is just scary.
He is the anti-establishment thorn. Simple as that. Everyone sick of the Republican establishment that has promised and failed to deliver are interested in pissing in their cereal. No better way to do so than Trump.

I get that part, but what exactly has the Republican establishment failed to deliver? What would be the objectives? No health care, eliminate welfare, no gay marriage, bigger military, more wars, walled off borders? All while lowering taxes? I don't think any party can deliver those.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:41 pm

He's the 2016 Tea Party.

Only where the Tea Party was naïve and rudderless haphazard movement, Trump is a calculated and cynical packaged product. Both have appeal to lesser-educated (on the issues) voters' base instincts but Trump is like cocaine while the Tea Party was like Chic-fil-a.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:41 pm

tru1cy wrote:Can anyone on the Right please explain to me the appeal of Donald Trump?

To the people that support him, he's not lying or playing on their fears. He's just telling it like it is, and their fears are real. They are as stupid as he is, and there are a lot of them.

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:47 pm

Rip wrote:
tru1cy wrote:Can anyone on the Right please explain to me the appeal of Donald Trump? Seriously, are the Republican party so unhappy to elect someone that is clearly playing the fear card and outright lying?

Some of the shit coming from Donald Trump is downright frightening. As a black man and a democrat I can vote for a moderate republican ( I voted for Maryland current Republican Governor as his message spoke to me) but the shit spewing from Bush, Carson (still can't believe I worked with this man) and Cruz is just scary.
He is the anti-establishment thorn. Simple as that. Everyone sick of the Republican establishment that has promised and failed to deliver are interested in pissing in their cereal. No better way to do so than Trump.

The establishment donors banding together in desperation to stop him just gives it more fuel.

If you can't give us someone we can get behind we will vote for someone who pisses you off essentially. I was hoping Rand Paul would be the rebelion candidate but it would appears he wasn't unsettling enough. Hard to compete with Trump and Carson in that arena.

TLDR; Yes, yes they are that unhappy.

Thanks, Rip. I understand that but what will it do ultimately? Can he win the a national election with just Republican and Independents? I would assume he would need some Democrats to vote for him

I get that the Republican base is angry and frustrated but "My Way or No Way" style of government isn't how the country is run. It appears to me that compromise now just a dirty word for this base

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:02 pm

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... lt/404365/

Analysts need to understand that the Republican base is furious with the Republican establishment, especially over the Bush years. From the point of view of conservatives I’ve spoken with, the early- to mid-2000s look like this: Voters gave Republicans control of Congress and the presidency for the longest stretch since the 1920s.

And what do Republicans have to show for it? Temporary tax cuts, No Child Left Behind, the Medicare prescription drug benefit, a new Cabinet department, increased federal spending, TARP, and repeated attempts at immigration reform. Basically, despite a historic opportunity to shrink government, almost everything that the GOP establishment achieved during that time moved the needle leftward on domestic policy.

In other words complicated and it varies.

Basically they want an anti-Obama because it is viewed that he has done what he wanted and controlling both houses of congress has done little to nothing to slow him down.

The biggest thing IMHO with Trump is that he is seen as being unable to be bought/influenced by the wealthy Republican donors who have bucked the majority of the party on numerous issues the most obvious being immigration/Border control.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:11 pm

tru1cy wrote:
Rip wrote:
tru1cy wrote:Can anyone on the Right please explain to me the appeal of Donald Trump? Seriously, are the Republican party so unhappy to elect someone that is clearly playing the fear card and outright lying?

Some of the shit coming from Donald Trump is downright frightening. As a black man and a democrat I can vote for a moderate republican ( I voted for Maryland current Republican Governor as his message spoke to me) but the shit spewing from Bush, Carson (still can't believe I worked with this man) and Cruz is just scary.
He is the anti-establishment thorn. Simple as that. Everyone sick of the Republican establishment that has promised and failed to deliver are interested in pissing in their cereal. No better way to do so than Trump.

The establishment donors banding together in desperation to stop him just gives it more fuel.

If you can't give us someone we can get behind we will vote for someone who pisses you off essentially. I was hoping Rand Paul would be the rebelion candidate but it would appears he wasn't unsettling enough. Hard to compete with Trump and Carson in that arena.

TLDR; Yes, yes they are that unhappy.
Thanks, Rip. I understand that but what will it do ultimately? Can he win the a national election with just Republican and Independents? I would assume he would need some Democrats to vote for him

I get that the Republican base is angry and frustrated but "My Way or No Way" style of government isn't how the country is run. It appears to me that compromise now just a dirty word for this base

They have put forth people who were moderate and compromised and that is seen as compromising to give the Democrats only part of what they want. When compromise actually ends up giving Republicans something they want then it could change. But spending cuts that manage to vanish in short order and half assed measures like the floated immigration reforms they would just as soon not bother.

I can list numerous liberal causes that have accomplished at least some of what they want. I can't think of a single conservative cause that hasn't had to give up some ground for nothing gained in return.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:15 pm

When you blow the dog whistle long enough, don't be surprised when the dog bites you.

In other words, Facebook is filled with people like Rip. And Trump appeals to their fears and biases. Reality television has taken over the political process.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:15 pm

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:18 pm