How is your career going?

[Paingod]

That sounds ... insane. I'm not sure how to angle around it - and it royally sucks that they're forcing it.

I just got an email back from the COO - they've selected another candidate and won't be offering me the job. Fastest. Hiring. Cycle. Ever. He posted the job on 3/7, I submitted my resume on 3/8, I was called on 3/9 for an interview on 3/11 - and they've filled the position by 3/14? I call BS. I don't know what this guy's game is, but it's a bad one.

Knowing I don't have the job, I'm itching to send back a simplified "I'm glad you found someone. I was planning to tell you to stuff it if you offered it to me" kind of email. Maybe saying something like "I don't believe I would have been a good fit for your corporate culture, based on the abnormally low salary range you provided." or maybe "I hope your new $17/hr hire works out better than the last IT Director did"

Bah. Back to the help wanted ads.

[Jeff V]

Often, the whole job posting/interview routine is simply an exercise in appeasing HR. The candidate may well have been selected before the job was ever posted and the interviews were simply mandated by corporate policy. Kind of like NFL teams have to always interview a minority candidate even when they have their preferred coach all but signed.

[Paingod]

So it's likely that he wanted to hire his son-in-law for the position or something - and had to go through the process of numerous interviews - and in each one he sabotages the interview somehow? Nothing he threw at me scared me, and he was spinning the job up as something big and intimidating. I was confident I could do anything he was talking about - and at the end he threw the final curve of the salary being slightly higher than I got doing Desktop Support out of college.

He might have done that just to scare off the applicants and ensure that his pick gets in without competition? Blech.

[Isgrimnur]

Corrupt assholes abound.

[LawBeefaroni]

Don't assume the worst. It wasn't a fit anyway, just move on. Be glad you avoided what appears to be a train wreck.

[Paingod]

Don't assume the worst. It wasn't a fit anyway, just move on. Be glad you avoided what appears to be a train wreck.

I have trouble accepting it, but yeah... it doesn't help that every day the ship I'm currently on sinks a little further. I'm bleeding a couple users weekly now it seems.

[ImLawBoy]

it doesn't help that every day the ship I'm currently on sinks a little further.

[pr0ner]

Corrupt assholes abound.

How is the situation paingod is describing corrupt?

[Isgrimnur]

It was based solely on his assumption of nepotism.

[stessier]

it doesn't help that every day the ship I'm currently on sinks a little further.

Yeah, that got a chuckle.

[Reemul]

I got laid off last May. I was an Ops Manager in Document Management. Unfortunately in the county I live in there is only 1 major DM company and a few minor ones. I struggled to get work as Ops Manager roles are widespread in Manufacturing and my role is more production and admin. Seems my weird keyset of skills, retail and DM don't mix.

Anyways a big local insurance company approached me to do a DM role at a low level. They said it was a simple job and a low wage, 40% less than I was earning and as cash was tight I took the job.

It turns out they needed a Project / Production Manager / Worker Drone to process 5 million pages of documents and thought a tea boy / admin office boy could do it.

After 2 weeks of setting stuff up and starting a proper working process and rewriting their system I asked for a meeting. Told them I wasn't prepared to do the job any more on what they paid me it was a joke. They wanted the job done in 18 months and doing it alone was going to take 3.5 years. So they agreed I could take someone else on, I contacted a colleague of mine in DM who had agreed to come on board from next week.

They came back the next day and said no more money so I said I would quit tomorrow and my colleague told them he wasn't interested in the job either anymore. So they came back with an offer worth 30% more which was ok and a bonus on completion but it is still about £5k + bonuses short of my old earnings.

So at present I am doing this job which I really like and the people are really nice but the pay sucks. My wife has gone from 3 days a week to 5 until September and is earning another £12k a year so money is now no problem until September but the job really is underpaid and expectations very high. They have zero experience in the DM field at all and really if I left it would just sink in to nothing.

The thing is I know getting a DM job somewhere else will be tough and I don't want to go back to retail management so seem stuck at the moment.

[Smoove_B]

I really wish I could understand some decisions that are being made a pay grades well above mine. When I tell them I'm receiving requests for [Service Y] I'm told to ignore it because an equivalent [Service X] is already being offered and is being under utilized. At which point I suggest that [Service X] is being under utilized because people prefer [Service Y] instead. Even though they are equivalent, [Service Y] is more convenient and makes much more sense in the year 2016. So I'm told that once demand for [Service X] is filled, you can then offer [Service Y].

I guess it would be like owning a fast food restaurant with interior table seating and a drive through window. And I'm telling you that the drive through window lanes need to be expanded because more and more people want to just drive through instead of coming inside to sit down. But you're staring at all the empty tables and telling me until the restaurant fills up, you're not going to add more drive through lanes. The end result is people go somewhere else because you won't provide them the service they're asking for. It boggles the mind.

[Paingod]

It boggles the mind.

High level corporate decisions are often driven by business and not sense. They see paper, they see numbers - they don't see reality. I don't know how a person can be that far removed from things, but they manage it all the time.

[Smoove_B]

Right - if it was just me speculating on numbers that would be one thing. But I'm showing up and telling you as my superior that there is demand - here are the actual requests. I'm not going on a fishing expedition to see what the market will bear or speculating on need - people are beating down my door and asking me to provide them with a service but you won't let me because the older (arguably outdated) service is still being offered and currently under utilized. Only in the public sector would you see this kind of management.

[Jaymann]

Right - if it was just me speculating on numbers that would be one thing. But I'm showing up and telling you as my superior that there is demand - here are the actual requests. I'm not going on a fishing expedition to see what the market will bear or speculating on need - people are beating down my door and asking me to provide them with a service but you won't let me because the older (arguably outdated) service is still being offered and currently under utilized. Only in the public sector would you see this kind of management.

You want black markets? Because that's how you get black markets.

[PLW]

You want black markets? Because that's how you get black markets.

Is there enough demand that you could quit your job and start a company that offers that service?

[Smoove_B]

I probably did the original post a disservice by being so general about what's happening, but I'm currently working in higher education as an adjunct...but I think the description still works.

[Jaymann]

Maybe you could put up a window for drive-thru learning.

[PLW]

Ohh, so this is a class that is filling up while an alternative still has lots of space it in? Are they both taught by the same person?

[Smoove_B]

Exactly. It's an online class (taught by me) and a lecture (taught by another adjunct). People don't want to take the lecture because it's being offered over the summer and it requires meeting four days a week, four hours at a clip. Instead, they're practically begging for another online section to be added but the department won't do it until the lecture fills up. Spoiler alert - the lecture will never fill up because no one wants to take the lecture. But because the traditional summer lecture has always been offered, they're going to continue to do so. And because it's not filled, we'll just assume that there isn't demand. It's extremely frustrating from my end when I know demand is there but politics are keeping the class from being offered.

[Jaymann]

Exactly. It's an online class (taught by me) and a lecture (taught by another adjunct). People don't want to take the lecture because it's being offered over the summer and it requires meeting four days a week, four hours at a clip. Instead, they're practically begging for another online section to be added but the department won't do it until the lecture fills up. Spoiler alert - the lecture will never fill up because no one wants to take the lecture. But because the traditional summer lecture has always been offered, they're going to continue to do so. And because it's not filled, we'll just assume that there isn't demand. It's extremely frustrating from my end when I know demand is there but politics are keeping the class from being offered.

What about hiring some shills to fill up the lecture class, then once the online class is approved they all drop it.

[Smoove_B]

Maybe you could put up a window for drive-thru learning.

I'm trying!

What about hiring some shills to fill up the lecture class, then once the online class is approved they all drop it.

That's actually part of the problem. If they see another online section is being offered, they flee the lecture sections to get into my online class. So instead of just adjusting to that demand (and telling the traditional lecturers that their services aren't in demand), they just don't offer any more online sections and tell the "customers" to deal with what is being offered. I could maybe understand if it was a tenured professor that was teaching the lecture, but that's not happening here. Maybe next year, but not now. I wish I could emphasize just how crazy in-demand online courses are right now - at least in my experience. My employer is desperately playing catch-up and hasn't quite accepted things. It's also why tenured staff are just getting into teaching online classes in my department over the last year or so and I've been doing it for them for five years now. But what do I know, I'm just a contract worker?.

[Zarathud]

Your students by definition don't know anything.

Education = Politics. You're screwed, my friend.

[Smoove_B]

Education = Politics. You're screwed, my friend.

Yeah, this is what I'm beginning to realize, hardcore. I was part of the "in-crowd" for a solid six years and I guess I never realized it, but things changed in January and now I'm no longer part of the cool kids. It blows (to get back to "How's your career going?"). I mean, I'm thankful for what I currently have, but I can see the writing on the wall.

[Isgrimnur]

Yeah, it sucks to realize that you never knew you were privileged, never had a chance to bask in its snuggly glory, before the woobie of security was yanked away.

[RunningMn9]

Education = Politics. You're screwed, my friend.

Yeah, this is what I'm beginning to realize, hardcore. I was part of the "in-crowd" for a solid six years and I guess I never realized it, but things changed in January and now I'm no longer part of the cool kids. It blows (to get back to "How's your career going?"). I mean, I'm thankful for what I currently have, but I can see the writing on the wall.

I think you quoted the wrong part.

Sure, students are demanding more online classes, but students are by definition dumb and inexperienced. Do future employers of students want more online classes? That's the more important question (IMO).

[Zarathud]

Frankly, my best experiences in college came not from the class materials but interactions with other students and teachers were the most worthwhile. You just don't get that online.

Convince them to hire you to teach lectures, then show the students are just hot for teacher.

[EvilHomer3k]

Frankly, my best experiences in college came not from the class materials but interactions with other students and teachers were the most worthwhile. You just don't get that online.

Convince them to hire you to teach lectures, then show the students are just hot for teacher.

You realize where you are making this statement, right? Not just in a random online forum but one where most people have been a member for nearly two decades. Are you sure you don't get meaningful interactions that rival in person classes online?

Online classes CAN offer similar (and in some ways superior) interaction to in person.

[Smoove_B]

Convince them to hire you to teach lectures, then show the students are just hot for teacher.

The problem is space -- and my employer is out of it. And this is also directly related to it being a summer course. Here space isn't the issue as much as it is the fact that in 2016 no one wants to spend 4 hours a night, four days a week sitting in a lecture when they can get the same information in an online format. College is expensive and no one lounges about all day during the summer. Everyone is working and trying to scrape together money to pay for things. Well, I guess there are still some individuals mooching off of their parents, but the overwhelming majority of summer students are workers (at least based on what they tell me). Regardless, I was absolutely among the group that considered online classes to be worthless, but after doing it for 5 years, I've changed my mind - and have made it my business to do everything I can to simulate what was my traditional lecture experience but in an online format. I'd think as part of your degree credit program, online classes can work. But just like lectures you can find a wide variety of offerings in terms of quality. Because lets be honest here, we all had people in college that didn't belong in front of the class. Whether it was their style, tone or interest in teaching. Online classes are exactly the same.

students are by definition dumb and inexperienced. Do future employers of students want more online classes? That's the more important question (IMO)

Well, that ship has sailed - when employers want more college degrees the providers need to figure out how to make it happen. IIRC the major industry survey that was conducted in 2015 suggested working experience (obtained through internships) was high on the list. So making sure you're part of a program that includes opportunities to work with organizations in your field is likely more important than your GPA or how many online classes you completed. Again, IIRC the industry survey was really focused on the "soft skills", i.e. emotional intelligence, which IMO is a lot to ask of a 22 year old and not something you're going to get in an online class or a lecture. You need to have actual working experience, interacting with people to understand what you should and shouldn't be doing on a day to day basis in the work place.

[Zarathud]

Doubletap

[RunningMn9]

So making sure you're part of a program that includes opportunities to work with organizations in your field is likely more important than your GPA or how many online classes you completed. Again, IIRC the industry survey was really focused on the "soft skills", i.e. emotional intelligence, which IMO is a lot to ask of a 22 year old and not something you're going to get in an online class or a lecture. You need to have actual working experience, interacting with people to understand what you should and shouldn't be doing on a day to day basis in the work place.

What I meant was, for a long time at least, "online" classes/degrees were not exactly what employers were looking for - which is one of the reasons some schools started hiding the fact that someone primarily took online classes.

I've taken both, and all things being equal I would prefer a live lecture by a wide margin. But then, I'm an old man stuck in my old man ways.

[Zarathud]

Are you sure you don't get meaningful interactions that rival in person classes online?

Let's just say that Jeff V and hepcat are even MORE entertaining in person. Particularly after a few beers.

It was distinguishing myself as a person by discussing class topics and my life interests with several teachers that opened up several tremendous opportunities. I didn't take them all, but they knew good career/experience opportunities better than my 21 year old self.

[Jeff V]

Interpersonal skills are often very important in real world jobs, and this is where online classes just fall flat. Pontificating in an online group is FAR different than addressing a room full of executives or stockholders and telling them things they might not want to hear. Trust me on that one. Speaking in front of a class of live people does provide some practice, however.

Now, it's certainly possible to address this shortcoming separately from the coursework itself (say, Toastmasters), but it just seems a little more efficient to combine the two. Online might be fine for certain classes like accounting, academic subjects (history, literature, etc...aka the useless majors) but for things that require hands on labs (like nursing) or really benefit from interpersonal interaction, then at the very least a hybrid approach should be considered.

I've taken some online technical training, but not a standard college course, mainly because I am not convinced that it would be effective for me, and the cost to find out is prohibitively high.

[LordMortis]

What I meant was, for a long time at least, "online" classes/degrees were not exactly what employers were looking for - which is one of the reasons some schools started hiding the fact that someone primarily took online classes.

I've taken both, and all things being equal I would prefer a live lecture by a wide margin. But then, I'm an old man stuck in my old man ways.

I rather doubt they are what employers are looking for, even now. Really it seems employers are often looking for you to have an in, more than anything, which is why I really should keep up my LinkedIn appearance... but don't.

But while employers don't seem to look so favorably toward hiring you based on online vs in class education, they'd sure rather finance your continued education through the less expensive online means rather than pay for a classroom environment.

I also highly prefer not only live lecture but also a live lecture in a physical classroom. I find it too easy to get distracted and become disinterested in a live lecture over the Internet. And I find that I click through the motions to get to the end of a not so live classroom. On the rare occasion I get or need to education for my job, the best thing ever available is "instructor led online" courses and they still always cost upwards of $1000 a day. I think that's insanity. I'm already of the opinion that $1000 a day for a classroom is crazy but $1000 a day for me to sit on my computer with speakers and a muted mic?

I can't speak to kids these days.

[Jeff V]

The thing is, once you do get going in your career, the nature of your education becomes largely irrelevant. It the success (or lack thereof) on the job that most influences future opportunities. It could also expose weaknesses that were skipped over in college that might require remedial coursework to fix. Also known as "continuing education."

My job recently offered $5000 per year tuition reimbursement for relevant courses (or certification classes). Not sure what I would even take though - I'm in middle management, so technical certs would just qualify me for lower-paying jobs. The path upward is blocked by long-time incumbents, my own boss is only a couple of years older, so when he retires, I'll not be far from the end of the line myself. And really, the only prep for his job is more experience in mine (he is crosstraining me and the other manager at my level to do what he does). Training in something completely different involves a measure of risk that I am adverse to at this time (and likely will be for the rest of my career since what I do now is unlikely to become obsolete before I die in my boots). I suppose more PMP training wouldn't hurt, but I've worked with enough of them by now to know that managing large projects does not appeal to me (and with the PM training I already had, I do fine on lesser projects that don't need that scope of management).

[GreenGoo]

I've taken both, and all things being equal I would prefer a live lecture by a wide margin. But then, I'm an old man stuck in my old man ways.

Ditto.

Without interaction, you could just give a kid and book and hope for the best. What part of online "classes" involves anything but static content (even a live stream lecturer is just static if there is no Q&A during it). A chat room just doesn't cut it imo.

Much more information can be transferred in an interpersonal discussion with say, a white board than by text. Now if online classes offer video chat with an interactive "blackboard" that both lecturer and student can interact with, then great. That's a huge step.

Because of my age, I still think of online classes being simply static text webpages, so I have to force myself to realize that it hasn't been like that in a long time. How good it could possibly be when compared to a live lecture? I have no idea, but I'm like Rmn9. I want a person in front of me that I can interact with. I don't want to squeeze my online class in between games of Call of Duty with my buds. I want my education to be formal (for a number of reasons).

I realize online is cheap for the institution (and presumably the student too) and convenient for the student, but how good is it at conveying the knowledge to everyone taking it? Obviously this depends on the nature of the knowledge being transferred, but still...

I also am old and foggety.

[Odin]

How is your career going?

Not great, really.

2000-2009 was a pretty decent time for me as I climbed the corporate ladder to VP, learned a lot, did a lot, made really good money, and was generally successful. I hopped on board with a guy who left one company at a terrific time (just as it was going public and getting bought, resulting in the dissolution of the department we were both in) and he put me into my first true management position. Granted, it only lasted 8 months, followed by a year or more of unemployment, but eventually I got hired by an even better boss for an even better position that served me well for the next 3-4 years. It was a boatload of travel (more than I wanted, by far), but, again, it put me on track for better things. Which turned out to be a job back with that first boss at a new company that was local, had nearly no travel, and paid extremely well. That lasted 2-3 years.

It turned out that that first boss who got me started in IT management was the same boss who drove me to hate it. I thought the world of this guy, in part for how he seemed to treat me and what he'd done for my career, and in part because he's extremely charismatic and if you take him at face value, you'd think he was God's personal gift to the IT community. But... not so much. In fact, he's a micromanager who inserts himself between his executive peers and his subordinates so that he seems to be involved in the day-to-day operation of his department, despite adding no value. He treats vendors like they're all pirates and brigands, his preferred negotiation tactic once I've put a fair deal together being to "beat them up some more." He adds layers and layers (and layers!) of bureaucratic paperwork and nonsense to every aspect of his department, needlessly complicating his department's activity in an act of "sound and fury signifying nothing" that he hopes will mask the fact that he actually doesn't accomplish much of anything. He lingered at the last company we were both at for another 2-3 years after I left, but I'm still good friends with the guy who now runs the department and everyone there remembers him with disgust and disdain. The CFO has been heard to inquire, "What did he actually DO here??"

Sadly, I didn't really figure that out until after I left. The blush fell off the rose too late for me. All I knew was that I was busting my ass sometimes until 9 or 10 at night trying to get everything done, with nobody qualified to delegate my work to (I managed a team of tech support guys who were fine at fixing computer problems, but couldn't assist with any of the bureaucratic crapola or really even take significant PM duties off my plate), and my list was getting longer every day. BECAUSE MY BOSS MADE EVERYTHING 5-10X MORE WORK THAN IT NEEDED TO BE!!! AAARGH!

Anyway, that was back in 2009 when I finally got fed up and left (actually, I told him I was at my wit's end and would likely be leaving, so he fired me. I suppose he considered me disloyal after all he'd "done for me" (completely ignoring what working for him had done TO me). In any case, I was glad to go.

I've done a mix of different things since then. I'm really good at training adults, but there's not really a ton of work in that unless you're highly certified and experienced in some particular certification-based skill that's in demand, which I'm not. I did find a college professor position open at my alma mater that would have been PERFECT for me. It was based around real-world practices in IT. Between my experience and talents as a teacher and my experience in IT, I could have made a real difference in a lot of IT and future IT peoples' lives. Well, I didn't get that - or even get an interview for it. I'm not sure who they DID interview for it, but rumor through the grapevine is that the position is going to go to (was probably created for, in fact).... dun-dun-dun! My old boss! The worst IT leader on the planet!!! Oh my f'ing God, if you exist, why do you hate me so? This guy is going to spend the next 20 years or so filling peoples' heads full of nonsense that is NOT how IT actually gets done. And then those poor bastards - unless they realize that he's full of it - are going to go out and actually try to act accordingly. It's a goddamn disaster.

Anyway, I think I'm out. I went to work in fall of 2014 for a small business who really couldn't afford to pay me more than entry-level and didn't actually give me a chance to contribute in various areas that might have made them money and justified my higher salary. I did make a bunch of changes that will keep them from losing customers, but they didn't see a direct dollar-value in that, so I hired a couple of new guys to do my entry-level work and went on my way last September. Since then, I have applied for all kinds of crap that I'm qualified for, and have gotten not one single phone call or interview except with recruiters (who in turn have not called). And I'm kind of fine with that, because I no longer really like doing a lot of the stuff I'm good at.

So I have signed up for an intro to welding class, and if I like it I'll be taking a full 7-month course to get certified as a welder starting in August. Fuck off, white collar bullshit. Somebody hand me some hunks of metal that you'd like to permanently stick together and then get out of my way.

[GreenGoo]

Good luck Odin!

A think a lot of white collar workers have dreams (even if they are vague and impractical for some. I'm not talking about you!) of working with our hands. Doing something productive and constructive with real world impact.

Pushing papers around all day can suck the life out of you, even if it pays well, sometimes.

[Smoove_B]

I also am old and foggety.

You are (so am I). Of course it will all depend on where you attended, but as an undergraduate my "core" 3rd and 4th year courses had 20-30 students in them - this was at a state University. Now that I'm teaching that same course 20 years later, it has now has 100 students in it and I'm pretty sure most of the upper level classes all have 50+students. I just looked at a FAQ from my employer suggesting that over 60% of the classes have fewer than 30 students and I'm saying absolutely no way. I'm not "teaching" anything. I'm lecturing. I'm offering insight to textbook material as it relates to actual work experience and I've been told this makes me a "pracademic". Believe me, I was with the majority five years ago with this online course stuff, but I can actually interact better on an individual basis with an online course environment (~30 students) than I can with a lecture. There are definitely things I cannot do as well in an online environment and on the whole I think I'm much more entertaining and engaging in person, but I honestly believe what we all have come to know as "traditional lecture" is going the way of the dinosaur. It certainly makes sense for some disciplines and courses, but as a one-size-fits all application? The times - they are a changing.

[Smoove_B]

So I have signed up for an intro to welding class, and if I like it I'll be taking a full 7-month course to get certified as a welder starting in August. Fuck off, white collar bullshit. Somebody hand me some hunks of metal that you'd like to permanently stick together and then get out of my way.

That's awesome - and don't under-sell the skill set. I have a friend that dropped out of college and moved down south was working as a welder for a small construction outfit. He's apparently very good at it and if he just skipped college and went into welding right out of high school, who the hell knows where he'd be now. Maybe you'll tap into a hidden talent as well.