Video Games Randomness - Prioritize specific game threads!
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- ColdSteel
- Posts: 3029
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:03 pm
Re: PC Gaming Randomness
This probably doesn't need it's own thread at this point but I'd like to give a shout out to a little one dev indie game I've been playing a lot lately:
Bloodlust Shadowhunter
It's basically a mix of Vampire the Masquerade RPG, dungeon crawling, a random loot system with equipment gem slots, minions to fight for you, factions with reputation, quests, puzzles and more. It really is quite a lot of fun. Now, there are a few issues with the stiff character animations but I'm not as picky as some on that kind of stuff and overall it's an incredible effort from one person. It's built using Unreal Engine and the graphics are very solid for an indie. There are quite a lot of dungeons and areas and they are essentially bottomless/endless. People have explored some those below level 300. The lower you go, the better the loot you find.
The loot system is kind of like Borderlands with common, magic, rare, unique items you can find. There are ways to enhance and change stuff you find in a variety of ways. Overall, I've found it to be a lot of fun and the vibe/atmosphere is very similar to Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. There's a ton of stuff to do even without the main quest/story. Check it out if you like this kind of game. I picked it up on sale last week and so far it's been more than worth the $9 I spent on it. The best part is the dev is currently working on a sequel with MP Coop.
Bloodlust Shadowhunter
It's basically a mix of Vampire the Masquerade RPG, dungeon crawling, a random loot system with equipment gem slots, minions to fight for you, factions with reputation, quests, puzzles and more. It really is quite a lot of fun. Now, there are a few issues with the stiff character animations but I'm not as picky as some on that kind of stuff and overall it's an incredible effort from one person. It's built using Unreal Engine and the graphics are very solid for an indie. There are quite a lot of dungeons and areas and they are essentially bottomless/endless. People have explored some those below level 300. The lower you go, the better the loot you find.
The loot system is kind of like Borderlands with common, magic, rare, unique items you can find. There are ways to enhance and change stuff you find in a variety of ways. Overall, I've found it to be a lot of fun and the vibe/atmosphere is very similar to Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. There's a ton of stuff to do even without the main quest/story. Check it out if you like this kind of game. I picked it up on sale last week and so far it's been more than worth the $9 I spent on it. The best part is the dev is currently working on a sequel with MP Coop.
"This game is best played with a warm cup of Folger's coffee in your hands, so you can actually smell the oppression while you relive the greatest period of all time. The period when white people discovered the world, and decided they didn't like it." - EUIV Steam user review
- Smoove_B
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Interesting. Hadn't heard of it. Thanks for posting it.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- Smoove_B
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- Location: Kaer Morhen
Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Since we're creeping closer to the holidays...I'm not normally into the whole statue/figure thing, but Dark Horse is releasing a series of 8"+ figures from The Witcher for around $30 each. Geralt just arrived and it looks pretty damn amazing. Definitely a nice addition to the gaming area.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- Blackhawk
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- dbt1949
- Posts: 25971
- Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:34 am
- Location: Spiro Oklahoma
Re: PC Gaming Randomness
My internet provider upgraded my speed to a faster level. Now I'm going and uninstalling a lot of my bigger games and reinstalling them.
I uninstalled the mods for Civ 5...........780megs worth.
I uninstalled the mods for Civ 5...........780megs worth.
Ye Olde Farte
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
- Daehawk
- Posts: 65958
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am
Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Devs....if you make a game that I have to go through a door but depend on a NPC to open that door then make them smart enough to actually do it and not simply stand there running against that damn door.
Second...as pertains to the above......also give me save anywhere because if the save is auto and on the other side of that door Im going to be mad.
Second...as pertains to the above......also give me save anywhere because if the save is auto and on the other side of that door Im going to be mad.
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"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
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"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
- Hipolito
- Posts: 2377
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:00 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Rather than create a whole embarrassing thread for the annual Interactive Fiction Competition (IFComp) like I usually do, I'll just make an embarrassing little post here.
I only had the chance to play 10 of the 58 games in IFComp 2016. I gave high ratings to Black Rock City (vignettes of Burning Man), Ash (losing a parent), and Cactus Blue Motel (weird).
Cactus Blue Motel got third place, but the first and second place went to games I hadn't played during the judging period: Detectiveland and Color the Truth. Both are detective games. I've now played them briefly. They seem OK and have some interesting innovations but don't really grab me.
I only had the chance to play 10 of the 58 games in IFComp 2016. I gave high ratings to Black Rock City (vignettes of Burning Man), Ash (losing a parent), and Cactus Blue Motel (weird).
Cactus Blue Motel got third place, but the first and second place went to games I hadn't played during the judging period: Detectiveland and Color the Truth. Both are detective games. I've now played them briefly. They seem OK and have some interesting innovations but don't really grab me.
Gracias por estar aquí.
The Longing AAR
Books read, games played.
Avatar: my Shepard from Mass Effect 1.
The Longing AAR
Books read, games played.
Avatar: my Shepard from Mass Effect 1.
- JetFred
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Haven't read this thread but I wanted in. Three and a half years late.
I have but one advocate.
- MonkeyFinger
- Posts: 3223
- Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:23 pm
- Location: South of Denver, CO
Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Ah... was wondering when you would make your annual appearance. Still appreciated, even if little and embarrassing.Hipolito wrote:Rather than create a whole embarrassing thread for the annual Interactive Fiction Competition (IFComp) like I usually do, I'll just make an embarrassing little post here.
-mf
- Daehawk
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
When you rearrange your Steam wishlist for 30 min dont look at another page before you save it.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
- JetFred
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Isn't it ridiculous how it doesn't save as you go? Second only to the fact that the Steam store still does not have a "sort by discount" button.
I have but one advocate.
- Hipolito
- Posts: 2377
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:00 pm
- Location: Chicago, Illinois
Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Thank you, MonkeyFinger.MonkeyFinger wrote:Ah... was wondering when you would make your annual appearance. Still appreciated, even if little and embarrassing.Hipolito wrote:Rather than create a whole embarrassing thread for the annual Interactive Fiction Competition (IFComp) like I usually do, I'll just make an embarrassing little post here.
Gracias por estar aquí.
The Longing AAR
Books read, games played.
Avatar: my Shepard from Mass Effect 1.
The Longing AAR
Books read, games played.
Avatar: my Shepard from Mass Effect 1.
- Daehawk
- Posts: 65958
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am
Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Would be nice. At least this site has ya covered on that.JetFred wrote:Isn't it ridiculous how it doesn't save as you go? Second only to the fact that the Steam store still does not have a "sort by discount" button.
https://steamdb.info/sales/
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I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
- Rumpy
- Posts: 13195
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
So, as part of the Steam Thanksgiving sale, I got a bunch of DiRT games, including Colin McRae Rally. I've never played any of those games and I thought that the version of Colin McRae Rally was an updated version of the first one first released in 1998. It isn't. Apparently this is a PC port of the mobile game, which is completely different. It's more of a hybrid between the first and second game in terms of content, but only has 4 cars; the four 4WD cars. It's a fun game though for what it is, and I'm glad I didn't pay more for it than I did. Just wanted to forewarn anybody thinking this might be a trip down memory lane.
PC:
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- GreenGoo
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Has anyone played with steams spectator stuff?
When I discovered it I watched Fretmoot playing Dota2 (but Dota2 has built in spectator options) and tgb playing a hex based wargame. I think it was Warhammer Armageddon.
My impression was like "holly crap, this is totally cool" but then I completely forgot about it.
Just curious if anyone spends their leisure time watching others play video games, live?
When I discovered it I watched Fretmoot playing Dota2 (but Dota2 has built in spectator options) and tgb playing a hex based wargame. I think it was Warhammer Armageddon.
My impression was like "holly crap, this is totally cool" but then I completely forgot about it.
Just curious if anyone spends their leisure time watching others play video games, live?
- Zarathud
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
My 9 year old spends hours watching Minecraft Dad, so yes.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
- Daehawk
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
I watch a few Twitch streamers.Just curious if anyone spends their leisure time watching others play video games, live?
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
- Rip
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
I watch Twitch routinely.
- Sepiche
- Posts: 8112
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
If I don't feel like watching shows while I play games, a lot of times I'll throw on a Youtuber playing games. It's a great way to see different strategies to play games I own, see what games I'm curious about play like, and to vicariously replay old games I don't have the time to replay myself.
- GreenGoo
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
I constantly watch videos of games being played for strategic purposes. My kids watch them for entertainment.
I just thought it was cool to look at my friends list, see what people were playing and then ask them if it is ok if I watch them play.
I just thought it was cool to look at my friends list, see what people were playing and then ask them if it is ok if I watch them play.
- Blackhawk
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
I like Twitch when I'm working out. It gives something halfway interesting that doesn't require my full attention.
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
- LordMortis
- Posts: 71947
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Live? Nope. And the only time I sat through Let's Play for entertainment was I watched about 30 hours of KSP because Scott Manly did such an awesome presentation.
-
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Same, I watch twitch (mostly Hearthstone) when working out or doing something around the house that is boring. I have my standard twitch streamers that I enjoy watching.Blackhawk wrote:I like Twitch when I'm working out. It gives something halfway interesting that doesn't require my full attention.
- GreenGoo
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Interesting, because I prefer audio when working out (when I used to work out anyway).
I watch let's play videos while doing the dishes.
I watch let's play videos while doing the dishes.
- Daehawk
- Posts: 65958
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
He did a good KSP video with Miss Spacegirl herself Amy Shira Teitel .LordMortis wrote:Live? Nope. And the only time I sat through Let's Play for entertainment was I watched about 30 hours of KSP because Scott Manly did such an awesome presentation.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
- jztemple2
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Unfortunately Manly is now doing that thing I hate, where the presenter puts themselves in an inset window on the screen. Do I really need to lose valuable screen real estate to see someone's image for the length of the video?Daehawk wrote:He did a good KSP video with Miss Spacegirl herself Amy Shira Teitel .LordMortis wrote:Live? Nope. And the only time I sat through Let's Play for entertainment was I watched about 30 hours of KSP because Scott Manly did such an awesome presentation.
My father said that anything is interesting if you bother to read about it - Michael C. Harrold
- Max Peck
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
If he's trying to monetize his videos, then the answer is probably "Yes" since part of succeeding at that involves promoting himself as a personality (i.e. he needs to make himself the product, not just the videos). It's probably a bigger deal with live streaming, where he'd be interacting with the audience via chat, but it probably helps in building his brand with things like youtube videos as well.jztemple2 wrote:Unfortunately Manly is now doing that thing I hate, where the presenter puts themselves in an inset window on the screen. Do I really need to lose valuable screen real estate to see someone's image for the length of the video?Daehawk wrote:He did a good KSP video with Miss Spacegirl herself Amy Shira Teitel .LordMortis wrote:Live? Nope. And the only time I sat through Let's Play for entertainment was I watched about 30 hours of KSP because Scott Manly did such an awesome presentation.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
- GreenGoo
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
I'm actually fine with PiP of the player's head. People who's voice annoy me are a far bigger issue and more likely to get me to stop watching that a two-feed video.
Of course so far I've only come across fairly small windows for the player. If it were obnoxiously large then we'd have a problem.
I watch outside Xbox videos because I like the presenters, and even though the video of them playing the game is obnoxiously large, I don't mind so much because I like them and I'm really just watching to hear what they have to say rather than watch the game itself.
Of course so far I've only come across fairly small windows for the player. If it were obnoxiously large then we'd have a problem.
I watch outside Xbox videos because I like the presenters, and even though the video of them playing the game is obnoxiously large, I don't mind so much because I like them and I'm really just watching to hear what they have to say rather than watch the game itself.
- Brian
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Live, not so much. Put I do spend a quite a bit of time watching Let's Plays on YouTube.GreenGoo wrote:Just curious if anyone spends their leisure time watching others play video games, live?
All too often though I find myself thinking, "man, this looks like a ton of fun, I should buy this game" only to remember that I don't have any friends to play it with (well, except for one but he almost never has the time to play anything) so why bother?
...But watching other people have fun is almost as good.
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
- KDH
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
GreenGoo wrote:Just curious if anyone spends their leisure time watching others play video games, live?
I watch youtubers that 'teach' and explain game\character builds .. do the math for me .. answer the why's and wherefore's of how something is better than something else in-game. You don't get alot of that in a twitch stream .. and a lot of twitch streamers seem to be there to watch the donations roll in more than even playing or enjoying the game in front of them.
If it's a 'let's play' and they are not 'splaining stuff .. they need to have an intelligent (non-annoying) banter ... twitch streamers are often not saying anything except acknowledging new subscribers
.
Ain't nobody got time for that
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Ain't nobody got time for that
.
- Blackhawk
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
There's some truth to that, but other than getting an overview of a new game, the main reason to watch Twitch is for entertainment, not intellectual enrichment. I go to YouTube if I want advice on building my Fallout 4 settlements. I go to Twitch when I need a background activity that consists mostly of the streamer being entertaining.
What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
- Daehawk
- Posts: 65958
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Come travel back in time with me a little bit to the year 2007 and IGN's list of missing PC games . These are games that should have been made by then but weren't. Games like Diablo 3 and Duke Nukem Forever. I actually went to the story because of Mechwarrior 5 should have been made. And now here we are in 2016. Just 9 years later Its been 16 (2000) years since MW4.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
- Daehawk
- Posts: 65958
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am
Re: PC Gaming Randomness
I still dream of an arcade building owning managing sim that lets me recreate both my favorite local arcade and Flynns from Tron.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
- Paingod
- Posts: 13225
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
There's something quite cathartic and relaxing about cruising the wastes in Mad Max. The roar of the engine, blowing dust, and peace - punctuated by intense moments of violence. It's nice. I'm enjoying it enough to dawdle and not just chase the story.
Black Lives Matter
2021-01-20: The first good night's sleep I had in 4 years.
2025-01-20: The nightmares continue.
2021-01-20: The first good night's sleep I had in 4 years.
2025-01-20: The nightmares continue.
- LordMortis
- Posts: 71947
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
I do this with board games all of the time. I think people think I'm odd. I like to go to gaming groups and watch other people play and watch strategies develop watch people have fun. The only problem is that I have to check myself on kibitzing, trying to better understand the game and the people playing it, for which I am getting much better.Brian wrote:...But watching other people have fun is almost as good.
It's not the same watching people play on youtube, though.
- coopasonic
- Posts: 21194
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
LordMortis wrote:I do this with board games all of the time. I think people think I'm odd. I like to go to gaming groups and watch other people play and watch strategies develop watch people have fun. The only problem is that I have to check myself on kibitzing, trying to better understand the game and the people playing it, for which I am getting much better.Brian wrote:...But watching other people have fun is almost as good.
It's not the same watching people play on youtube, though.
I do that at board game meetups as well. Nobody has harmed me for offering rules corrections yet... but I think I have come close a couple times.
-Coop
Black Lives Matter
Black Lives Matter
- Rumpy
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Ahh, Rockstar. I love your games, but your social club is shit. If it takes me a half hour of wrestling with your activation server each time I want to play your games, I think you need to rethink your strategy. It feels like there's a disconnect between their activation server and their login server and half the time it throws up an activation message despite the fact that I've already activated said game. Really needs to be a smoother and more transparent process. Besides which, it keeps forgetting who I am each time I launch the game even though I have the whole login process set to automatically login.
Rockstar possibly has the worst implementation of online DRM that I've seen.
Rockstar possibly has the worst implementation of online DRM that I've seen.
PC:
Ryzen 5 3600
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Ryzen 5 3600
32GB RAM
2x1TB NVMe Drives
GTX 1660 Ti
- Brian
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Yeah, bad timing in particular for a friend and I.
I bought a friend of mine a copy of GTA V as an early Christmas gift last month and last night he FINALLY had some free time to play (he and his wife are fostering a handful of troubled/special needs kids so he never has any free time) and we couldn't get logged on.
We did end up playing R6:Siege for a bit so still had some fun but damn I wanted to get some GTA time in with him.
I bought a friend of mine a copy of GTA V as an early Christmas gift last month and last night he FINALLY had some free time to play (he and his wife are fostering a handful of troubled/special needs kids so he never has any free time) and we couldn't get logged on.
We did end up playing R6:Siege for a bit so still had some fun but damn I wanted to get some GTA time in with him.
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
- Rumpy
- Posts: 13195
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Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Yeah, taking the issues into account, I'm surprised at how GTA Online is popular and that people put up with the social club constantly. What a pain in the ass that thing is.
I think part of it has something to do with linking accounts, and if that's the case, I don't think the linking of accounts is ready for primetime, in general. I've seen other issues with linking accounts with MS and Skype; they're now forcing the linking of the two accounts, yet can't figure out how to make it work smoothly and as such it keeps forgetting my password and some details even though technically they should be part of the same system. Having my PSN and PC linked to it seems to cause problems, even though they're never used at the same time.
And then the login: It sometimes takes forever to check the activation server, and then if it does, perhaps due to a timeout, throws up an activation message. During the times it does work, there's not enough confirmation of anything happening in the background. Meanwhile, it likes to throw in a login screen, making one think the login isn't working. So the user is presented with a dilemma. Is the login working? Do I enter the username and password? Or do I wait? Waiting is usually the thing to do, but the user doesn't have any indication of that. Eventually though, it kicks in and the game loads. Would help if the activation server talked with the login server, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
Hilariously though, the other night I logged into the social club website to check something and it logged me out of the game, and had to go through the whole rigmarole again. Seriously, Rockstar!
I think part of it has something to do with linking accounts, and if that's the case, I don't think the linking of accounts is ready for primetime, in general. I've seen other issues with linking accounts with MS and Skype; they're now forcing the linking of the two accounts, yet can't figure out how to make it work smoothly and as such it keeps forgetting my password and some details even though technically they should be part of the same system. Having my PSN and PC linked to it seems to cause problems, even though they're never used at the same time.
And then the login: It sometimes takes forever to check the activation server, and then if it does, perhaps due to a timeout, throws up an activation message. During the times it does work, there's not enough confirmation of anything happening in the background. Meanwhile, it likes to throw in a login screen, making one think the login isn't working. So the user is presented with a dilemma. Is the login working? Do I enter the username and password? Or do I wait? Waiting is usually the thing to do, but the user doesn't have any indication of that. Eventually though, it kicks in and the game loads. Would help if the activation server talked with the login server, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
Hilariously though, the other night I logged into the social club website to check something and it logged me out of the game, and had to go through the whole rigmarole again. Seriously, Rockstar!
PC:
Ryzen 5 3600
32GB RAM
2x1TB NVMe Drives
GTX 1660 Ti
Ryzen 5 3600
32GB RAM
2x1TB NVMe Drives
GTX 1660 Ti
- Daehawk
- Posts: 65958
- Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am
Re: PC Gaming Randomness
Years ago that thing about drove me crazy. As far as I know Ive had no trouble with it in a long time. GTA V and GTA Online both log me right in.
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I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
When in doubt, skewer it out...I don't know.