The Confederate Flag Thread

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:26 pm

LordMortis wrote:For my entire life, I have held separate spheres of acquaintances and that was by design. I have been careful what gets said to who. That changed in mid 2016 and that djinni is out of the bottle. Silence is no longer a (re)solution, and that makes me sad. Life was much better and way easier when I felt like it was worthy luxury to keep everyone in their separate little ven diagrammed boxes. I don't like screaming political approvals or disapproval from the rooftops but it seems so very necessary. Now, the only separate sphere I have is work, where I still try really hard to remain apolitical but even that force field is weakening.

This pretty much describes me, as well. I frequently wonder if I've become 'that guy' whose ranting now just annoys his friends on Facebook.

But for the life of me I can't stop. Seems necessary, indeed.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:29 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/virgi ... 93151.html

Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe has said one of the reasons the police failed to control the violence during a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville was because militia members at the rally were armed with "better equipment" than the state police themselves.

“It’s easy to criticise, but I can tell you this, 80 per cent of the people here had semiautomatic weapons," Mr McAuliffe said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/us/c ... lists.html

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:36 pm

Yeah, the only tangible thing I can point to that has shown that their numbers have risen recently is increased traffic to hate websites.

I think the number has stayed roughly the same (although I think people on the right who support Trump are more willing to give them a pass). It hasn't been huge, but it's been a lot bigger than I'm comfortable with (just like the number of people who believe conspiracy theories, etc is way bigger than I'd like)

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:48 pm

Kurth wrote:Have there been reliable accounts of the numbers present in Charlottesville, both for the white supremacists and the counter-protesters? The only report I saw was that the Nazi-like torch lit parade drew about 250 marchers. That doesn't seem all that impressive to me.

To hear the media coverage of this, there's a massive, burgeoning neo-Nazi movement in this country. Is that really supported by the numbers involved?

Haven't small groups of white power idiots been a near constant over the years? I get that now that they feel they are getting at least tacit support from the White House, and they may have grown more vocal and empowered, but have their numbers actually grown?

Watching the coverage of Charlottesville, I can't help but feel there are parallels with the way the media covers any terror-related incident. Why are people so afraid of terrorism when they have a significantly better chance of dying from walking outside and having a brick fall on their head? That's rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway: Because the media is in the business of feeding fear.

Does it have to be a massive, burgeoning movement to be a concern?

What does crowd size matter if one of them is willing to drive a car into a crowd?

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:58 pm

Alefroth wrote:
Kurth wrote:Have there been reliable accounts of the numbers present in Charlottesville, both for the white supremacists and the counter-protesters? The only report I saw was that the Nazi-like torch lit parade drew about 250 marchers. That doesn't seem all that impressive to me.

To hear the media coverage of this, there's a massive, burgeoning neo-Nazi movement in this country. Is that really supported by the numbers involved?

Haven't small groups of white power idiots been a near constant over the years? I get that now that they feel they are getting at least tacit support from the White House, and they may have grown more vocal and empowered, but have their numbers actually grown?

Watching the coverage of Charlottesville, I can't help but feel there are parallels with the way the media covers any terror-related incident. Why are people so afraid of terrorism when they have a significantly better chance of dying from walking outside and having a brick fall on their head? That's rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway: Because the media is in the business of feeding fear.
Does it have to be a massive, burgeoning movement to be a concern?

What does crowd size matter if one of them is willing to drive a car into a crowd?

Is there a difference of concern is the march is 250 people vs. 10,000?

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:02 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Alefroth wrote:
Kurth wrote:Have there been reliable accounts of the numbers present in Charlottesville, both for the white supremacists and the counter-protesters? The only report I saw was that the Nazi-like torch lit parade drew about 250 marchers. That doesn't seem all that impressive to me.

To hear the media coverage of this, there's a massive, burgeoning neo-Nazi movement in this country. Is that really supported by the numbers involved?

Haven't small groups of white power idiots been a near constant over the years? I get that now that they feel they are getting at least tacit support from the White House, and they may have grown more vocal and empowered, but have their numbers actually grown?

Watching the coverage of Charlottesville, I can't help but feel there are parallels with the way the media covers any terror-related incident. Why are people so afraid of terrorism when they have a significantly better chance of dying from walking outside and having a brick fall on their head? That's rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway: Because the media is in the business of feeding fear.
Does it have to be a massive, burgeoning movement to be a concern?

What does crowd size matter if one of them is willing to drive a car into a crowd?
Is there a difference of concern is the march is 250 people vs. 10,000?

The number of Nazi marchers at any one rally is much less concerning than the fact that there is one President who seemingly has their back.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:02 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: Is there a difference of concern is the march is 250 people vs. 10,000?

Of course.

Do you think the media is over-reporting these instances?

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:04 pm

Max Peck wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:
Alefroth wrote:
Kurth wrote:Have there been reliable accounts of the numbers present in Charlottesville, both for the white supremacists and the counter-protesters? The only report I saw was that the Nazi-like torch lit parade drew about 250 marchers. That doesn't seem all that impressive to me.

To hear the media coverage of this, there's a massive, burgeoning neo-Nazi movement in this country. Is that really supported by the numbers involved?

Haven't small groups of white power idiots been a near constant over the years? I get that now that they feel they are getting at least tacit support from the White House, and they may have grown more vocal and empowered, but have their numbers actually grown?

Watching the coverage of Charlottesville, I can't help but feel there are parallels with the way the media covers any terror-related incident. Why are people so afraid of terrorism when they have a significantly better chance of dying from walking outside and having a brick fall on their head? That's rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway: Because the media is in the business of feeding fear.
Does it have to be a massive, burgeoning movement to be a concern?

What does crowd size matter if one of them is willing to drive a car into a crowd?
Is there a difference of concern is the march is 250 people vs. 10,000?
The number of Nazi marchers at any one rally is much less concerning than the fact that there is one President who seemingly has their back.

Also, water is wet.

I think its a legit question (and one I'm interested in, too). How big are these rallies? Are they getting bigger? Is the movement growing, or will we see a backlash against them that will reduce them (or at least drive them back underground)?

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:06 pm

Alefroth wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote: Is there a difference of concern is the march is 250 people vs. 10,000?
Of course.

Do you think the media is over-reporting these instances?

I don't know for sure, but I don't think so. I was merely responding to the implication in your prior comment that the size of the rally didn't matter - it matters that it happened.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:06 pm

I've read reports that it was "thousands" but I don't know how accurate it was meant to be.

Edit: For example:

Thousands of white supremacists and armed militia groups faced off with counter-protesters during a violent and chaotic rally that raged for hours in this Virginia city on Saturday, resulting in the deaths of at least three people.

link

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:12 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:
Alefroth wrote:
Kurth wrote:Have there been reliable accounts of the numbers present in Charlottesville, both for the white supremacists and the counter-protesters? The only report I saw was that the Nazi-like torch lit parade drew about 250 marchers. That doesn't seem all that impressive to me.

To hear the media coverage of this, there's a massive, burgeoning neo-Nazi movement in this country. Is that really supported by the numbers involved?

Haven't small groups of white power idiots been a near constant over the years? I get that now that they feel they are getting at least tacit support from the White House, and they may have grown more vocal and empowered, but have their numbers actually grown?

Watching the coverage of Charlottesville, I can't help but feel there are parallels with the way the media covers any terror-related incident. Why are people so afraid of terrorism when they have a significantly better chance of dying from walking outside and having a brick fall on their head? That's rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway: Because the media is in the business of feeding fear.
Does it have to be a massive, burgeoning movement to be a concern?

What does crowd size matter if one of them is willing to drive a car into a crowd?
Is there a difference of concern is the march is 250 people vs. 10,000?
The number of Nazi marchers at any one rally is much less concerning than the fact that there is one President who seemingly has their back.
Also, water is wet.

I think its a legit question (and one I'm interested in, too). How big are these rallies? Are they getting bigger? Is the movement growing, or will we see a backlash against them that will reduce them (or at least drive them back underground)?

If only organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center promulgated such information, so that concerned citizens could look it up instead of settling for slinging forum snark.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:16 pm

Max Peck wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:
Alefroth wrote:
Kurth wrote:Have there been reliable accounts of the numbers present in Charlottesville, both for the white supremacists and the counter-protesters? The only report I saw was that the Nazi-like torch lit parade drew about 250 marchers. That doesn't seem all that impressive to me.

To hear the media coverage of this, there's a massive, burgeoning neo-Nazi movement in this country. Is that really supported by the numbers involved?

Haven't small groups of white power idiots been a near constant over the years? I get that now that they feel they are getting at least tacit support from the White House, and they may have grown more vocal and empowered, but have their numbers actually grown?

Watching the coverage of Charlottesville, I can't help but feel there are parallels with the way the media covers any terror-related incident. Why are people so afraid of terrorism when they have a significantly better chance of dying from walking outside and having a brick fall on their head? That's rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway: Because the media is in the business of feeding fear.
Does it have to be a massive, burgeoning movement to be a concern?

What does crowd size matter if one of them is willing to drive a car into a crowd?
Is there a difference of concern is the march is 250 people vs. 10,000?
The number of Nazi marchers at any one rally is much less concerning than the fact that there is one President who seemingly has their back.
Also, water is wet.

I think its a legit question (and one I'm interested in, too). How big are these rallies? Are they getting bigger? Is the movement growing, or will we see a backlash against them that will reduce them (or at least drive them back underground)?
If only organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center promulgated such information, so that concerned citizens could look it up instead of settling for slinging forum snark.

If you're going to chastise people for flinging forum snark, you'd best invest in a hair shirt.

That said, making blatantly obvious statements that don't address the issue raised is often the cause of snark. Perhaps you could have provided some info from the SPLC to advance the conversation in a more productive direction. I had done a cursory search prior to my post, but only found the 250 figure that Kurth referenced, but it seemed to be only about the people attending the Tiki march the night before, and not about the rally the following day.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:30 pm

The problem with doxxing...even if you're after Nazis

After a day of work at the Engineering Research Center at the University of Arkansas, Kyle Quinn had a pleasant Friday night in Bentonville with his wife and a colleague. They explored an art exhibition at the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art and dined at an upscale restaurant.

Then on Saturday, he discovered that social media sleuths had incorrectly identified him as a participant in a white nationalist rally some 1,100 miles away in Charlottesville, Va. Overnight, thousands of strangers across the country had been working together to share photographs of the men bearing Tiki torches on the University of Virginia campus. They wanted to name and shame them to their employers, friends and neighbors. In a few cases, they succeeded.

But Mr. Quinn’s experience showed the risks.

A man at the rally had been photographed wearing an “Arkansas Engineering” shirt, and the amateur investigators found a photo of Mr. Quinn that looked somewhat similar. They were both bearded and had similar builds.

By internet frenzy standards, that was proof enough.

It's douchey and dangerous, regardless of which side is doing it.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:44 pm

Not to mention that it's incredibly shortsighted. If you help make this type of doxxing people who attend rallies a thing, the Trump people are going to use that against left wing protestors as well, particularly those who live in more conservative areas.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:19 pm

Trump is currently doubling down on his "both sides are to blame" argument. Says both sides were to blame for violence, and when asked about the alt-right retorted with "Does the alt-left have any guilt?"

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:19 pm

WaPo says the Fucko actually posted this and then deleted it.

I'm as clueless as they come but JESUSPANCAKE, he can't be that clueless. What is the word/concept that everyone has been using since this weekend? Dog Whistle?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:21 pm

Apparently the cartoon was modified from its original form - the cartoonist drew it with a donkey (democrat) being the person trying to block the train. The person who tweeted it just copy-pasted the CNN logo over the donkey head.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:23 pm

LordMortis wrote: Dog Whistle?

We are well beyond the dog whistle statements of yesteryear and have transitioned into strongly implied endorsement.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:39 pm

FakeNewsCNN wrote:"There are two sides to a story," Trump said, adding that there were "a lot of bad people in the other group too," referring to the counterprotesters.

He added that there were also "good people" on both sides, including those marching in the white nationalism rally.

Public: "There's no way Trump could have a worse day than he had a few days ago."
Trump: "Hold my beer."

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:39 pm

And some of them, he assumes, are good people.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:40 pm

He literally can't control himself. A great attribute in a person with control of a nuclear arsenal.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:40 pm

Trump now says he was waiting to have the facts on Saturday, and now that he has the facts he has decided it was a fine statement and has doubled down on blaming both sides and equating them.

Captain Caveman · Post by **Captain Caveman** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:43 pm

That press conference needs to be seen to be believed. He is so truly unfit and we are so truly fucked.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:45 pm

The thing is, EVEN IF you gave Trump every benefit of the doubt, and in his ham-handed way he was just trying to make the point that human beings are not black and white. And that in every corrupt soul there can be found a spirit of goodness, and in every saint a tiny bit of evil......

YOU DON'T CHOOSE NAZIS VS NON-RACIST PEOPLE TO MAKE THAT POINT!

He is so unbelievably tone-deaf that this lack of judgment alone should preclude him from holding this job.

P.S. CNN is now in full "Fuck This Guy" mode.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:47 pm

And as usual he had to slip in something about how great he is. He is a bottomless pit of nothingness. I don't know if I'd blame new atheists for arguing that Trump is the proof for the absence of God.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:50 pm

He's went out of his way to not call this terrorism. It's truly unbelievable. Says, "You can call it whatever you want."

I've been watching clips from this and he is truly unhinged.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:58 pm

This is surreal.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:04 pm

"Are you against the Confederacy?" is a really strange question to have to ask a US president in 2017.

— Dell Cameron (@dellcam) August 15, 2017

… Even stranger that there wasn’t an answer.

— Nick Ashton-Hart (@nashtonhart) August 15, 2017

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:22 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:This is surreal.

+1

If he had an ounce of self-awareness I might assume that Trump is trolling us, trying to get us to tie ourselves in knots with outrage and dismay.

As it is, I really believe this is just who he is: a reactionary racist who lashes out at all criticism and indulges anyone, no matter how vile, who flatters him.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:22 pm

The President of the United States just described some people who marched with neo-Nazis and white supremacists as “very fine people.”

— Gary Parrish (@GaryParrishCBS) August 15, 2017

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:23 pm

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:35 pm

I...think I should simply step away from this for today.

When I watch my co-workers and people I (used to) respect actively defending this, I'm not sure how that ends with a positive outcome.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:37 pm

YellowKing wrote:The thing is, EVEN IF you gave Trump every benefit of the doubt, and in his ham-handed way he was just trying to make the point that human beings are not black and white. And that in every corrupt soul there can be found a spirit of goodness, and in every saint a tiny bit of evil......

YOU DON'T CHOOSE NAZIS VS NON-RACIST PEOPLE TO MAKE THAT POINT!

He is so unbelievably tone-deaf that this lack of judgment alone should preclude him from holding this job.

P.S. CNN is now in full "Fuck This Guy" mode.

Msnbc is losing its shit thus afternoon.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:39 pm

link

This one should be taken literally.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:13 pm

YellowKing wrote:
FakeNewsCNN wrote:"There are two sides to a story," Trump said, adding that there were "a lot of bad people in the other group too," referring to the counterprotesters.

He added that there were also "good people" on both sides, including those marching in the white nationalism rally.

Public: "There's no way Trump could have a worse day than he had a few days ago."
Trump: "Hold my beer."

We're what, eight months into this administration? and already there are Nazis marching in the streets and open threats of nuclear war. Give him time to really get rolling.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:26 pm

Of someone other than captain fuckface does something people are going to get killed. There will be bigger an store violent protests and it's all on this peice of shits hands. I can't even watch the news anymore today.

Octavious · Post by **Octavious** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:29 pm

Arr won't let me edit. Stupid phone autocorrecting.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:37 pm

Not many presidents could make threatening nuclear war the second worst thing he did in a week.

— Gady Epstein (@gadyepstein) August 12, 2017

(And this was prior to his most recent press conference)

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:43 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:If you're going to chastise people for flinging forum snark, you'd best invest in a hair shirt. That said, making blatantly obvious statements that don't address the issue raised is often the cause of snark. Perhaps you could have provided some info from the SPLC to advance the conversation in a more productive direction. I had done a cursory search prior to my post, but only found the 250 figure that Kurth referenced, but it seemed to be only about the people attending the Tiki march the night before, and not about the rally the following day.

I've never denied that I'm a sarcastic asshole. When someone goes out of their way to point out (justly, there is no doubt) that my comments are shallow and superficial, I'm merely inclined to acknowledge their effort.

Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:52 pm

Max Peck wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:If you're going to chastise people for flinging forum snark, you'd best invest in a hair shirt. That said, making blatantly obvious statements that don't address the issue raised is often the cause of snark. Perhaps you could have provided some info from the SPLC to advance the conversation in a more productive direction. I had done a cursory search prior to my post, but only found the 250 figure that Kurth referenced, but it seemed to be only about the people attending the Tiki march the night before, and not about the rally the following day.
I've never denied that I'm a sarcastic asshole. When someone goes out of their way to point out (justly, there is no doubt) that my comments are shallow and superficial, I'm merely inclined to acknowledge their effort.

Whoa, now. Who's flinging forum snark? Also, I did check SPLC before I posted that, and I didn't see any decent figures relevant to my question about the actual number of neo-Nazis and white supremacists.

Coincidentally, I just saw this article on The Daily Beast: How Many Nazis Are There In America Really?

The Southern Poverty Law Center hasn’t counted the members of the so-called “alt-right.” A press representative tells The Daily Beast that they’re not aware of any nationwide surveys designed to count them. However, they estimate that the KKK counts between 5,000 and 8,000 members nationwide. Back in the 1920’s, when cities across the south were erecting monuments to Confederate generals, the Klan had 4 million members. As Roger L. Simon points out, this would be an impressive decrease even if the population of the U.S. hadn’t swelled since the 1920’s. Back then, the Klan constituted about 4 percent of the entire U.S. population. Now, the KKK is near its nadir. That would make them less than 0.003 percent of the population, even on the higher end of the SPLC’s estimate. “It’s a small group of real bad people,” Simon writes.

This seems to support the notion that the media is, yet again, feeding fear and convincing Americans to be VERY AFRAID.

And, to be clear, I'm not saying they shouldn't be covering the events in Charlottesville. Not by a long shot. But I think the coverage -- like so much of the rest of what passes as journalism today -- is irresponsible because it doesn't put the issues in context.