The Former Trump Presidency Thread

[noxiousdog]

The thing is, he wasn't trying to be productive. He just felt that he couldn't stand for the anthem of a country he felt was so hypocritical regarding its values. He didn't ask anyone else to do anything, it was purely personal and he didn't publicize it at all.

Everyone else did however.

Then he was just being disrespectful with no actual objective? That's even worse.

[noxiousdog]

Interesting. Well if they were still in the dressing room I actually don't have a huge problem with it.

Can I just say that I find this flag/anthem/patriotism link to the military to be profoundly weird? A country is more than it's military, and the anthem, flag and patriotism is about the country. How/when did the military replace country in all this? It feels like the military is on the wrong side of this equation.

Standing at attention during anthem = honor for country
serving in the military = honour for country

Somehow it's become:

Standing at attention during anthem = honor for military.

It's because of the link between the military helping preserve your freedoms. It's still the collection of all of it though.

I stand for all anthems in a live situation. I might pass on North Korea, but not many others. I'd even stand (on guard) for the Canadian anthem without rolling my eyes.

[stessier]

Interesting. Well if they were still in the dressing room I actually don't have a huge problem with it.

Can I just say that I find this flag/anthem/patriotism link to the military to be profoundly weird? A country is more than it's military, and the anthem, flag and patriotism is about the country. How/when did the military replace country in all this? It feels like the military is on the wrong side of this equation.

Standing at attention during anthem = honor for country
serving in the military = honour for country

Somehow it's become:

Standing at attention during anthem = honor for military.

It's because of the link between the military helping preserve your freedoms. It's still the collection of all of it though.

In some people's minds, yes. Clearly not in everyone's though.

[noxiousdog]

In some people's minds, yes. Clearly not in everyone's though.

That's quite a large gap in your analysis.

[gilraen]

I've never stood for the anthem when watching on TV or at a bar. In the stadium, yes, but anywhere else where it isn't being played live? Nope.

Same (not that I've been to a live sporting event in several years...) Although for that matter, I never understood what the hell the anthem have to do with a sporting event anyway (unless, maybe, if you are in an international competition, like the Olympics). Yeah, I know, the tradition has been around for decades, in many countries, but just because everyone does it doesn't mean it makes any more sense.

Also, from Twitter:

"Rosa Parks was not protesting the bus. Gandhi was not protesting the food. Players are not protesting the anthem. It's the injustice, stupid"

[Skinypupy]

I've seen this since someone post 9-11 wanted to fight me for not taking my hat off during a 7th inning stretch rendition of God Bless America. These are the same assholes. They suddenly decide what is the proper mark of respect and reverence, no matter how ironic or contradictory. The guy actually said "You take your fucking hat off for the Anthem!" I've made it point ever since to keep my hat on during that "anthem."

At Utah football games, they play "God Bless America" as they walk the flags out to midfield, then the National Anthem once they're there. I get chastised by random Patriot(tm) at least once (usually more) every season for not taking my hat off and putting my hand over my heart during "God Bless America".

I used to be snarky about it, now I just chuckle and ignore them.

[stessier]

In some people's minds, yes. Clearly not in everyone's though.

That's quite a large gap in your analysis.

I don't understand. There is no objective meaning to standing or sitting during the anthem.

[Pyperkub]

I really dislike God Bless America, and I despise how it became a de facto second anthem after 9/11. I would have much preferred America the Beautiful.

[noxiousdog]

In some people's minds, yes. Clearly not in everyone's though.

That's quite a large gap in your analysis.

I don't understand. There is no objective meaning to standing or sitting during the anthem.

Some < ~ 20%
Clearly not everyone > ~ 80% (though is nebulous since it could be one vociferous person).

So, I'm not sure what you were trying to say.

[El Guapo]

In some people's minds, yes. Clearly not in everyone's though.

That's quite a large gap in your analysis.

I don't understand. There is no objective meaning to standing or sitting during the anthem.

Some < ~ 20%
Clearly not everyone > ~ 80% (though is nebulous since it could be one vociferous person).

So, I'm not sure what you were trying to say.

Interesting. I would say that "clearly not everyone" would encompass a loud dissenting minority, which could be as low as 10%.

Which reminds me of a related side question I am interested in - would you say that an event that has a 51% chance of happening is "probably" going to happen?

[malchior]

The North Koreans have reached out to Republican policy folks for help figuring out Trump.So...Trump is too much of a madman for N. Korea!?!

[GreenGoo]

Then he was just being disrespectful with no actual objective? That's even worse.

Sometimes you have to be true to yourself without worrying about exterior influences. Weird, right?

Chris and I touched on this tangentially during our "importance of being factual" fun times.

[El Guapo]

Then he was just being disrespectful with no actual objective? That's even worse.

Sometimes you have to be true to yourself without worrying about exterior influences. Weird, right?

Chris and I touched on this tangentially during our "importance of being factual" fun times.

Yeah, it sounds like Kaepernick never intended to start a movement. He was just uncomfortable with the state of affairs on police brutality against African Americans, which is conducted by and on behalf of the state and federal governments of the United States, so he did something that felt personally appropriate. Which is mostly his business (and I don't especially care if his beliefs are coherent or not).

Had he intended to start a movement I would be at least a little more critical, because doing it as a protest to the flag / anthem has unpatriotic-seeming associations that are less than ideal.

[GreenGoo]

It's because of the link between the military helping preserve your freedoms. It's still the collection of all of it though.

That's...I mean, yeah, true, but when was the last time American freedoms were threatened enough that the military was involved? Don't read this as disrespect for the military. Most of my career has been in civilian service to ours, and I was removed from that service along with thousands of others against my will, which is still a sore point of mine.

I mean, I get it, the military is of great service to the country and the people of the country. It's not a separate entity to be worshipped though. At least not in my mind. The anthem is the country's anthem, not the military's. I just find it weird that people think disrespecting the anthem has ANYTHING to do with the military, specifically. I think it must be a mindset that was never driven home with me.

I stand for all anthems in a live situation. I might pass on North Korea, but not many others. I'd even stand (on guard) for the Canadian anthem without rolling my eyes.

Hey that's great. Me too. I don't do it because I'm honoring your military though. Just so that's clear.

[noxiousdog]

Then he was just being disrespectful with no actual objective? That's even worse.

Sometimes you have to be true to yourself without worrying about exterior influences. Weird, right?

Chris and I touched on this tangentially during our "importance of being factual" fun times.

Huh. Like Christians and gay marriage?

[noxiousdog]

That's...I mean, yeah, true, but when was the last time American freedoms were threatened enough that the military was involved? Don't read this as disrespect for the military. Most of my career has been in civilian service to ours, and I was removed from that service along with thousands of others against my will, which is still a sore point of mine.

I mean, I get it, the military is of great service to the country and the people of the country. It's not a separate entity to be worshipped though. At least not in my mind. The anthem is the country's anthem, not the military's. I just find it weird that people think disrespecting the anthem has ANYTHING to do with the military, specifically. I think it must be a mindset that was never driven home with me.

I think in most cases we are talking about WWII vets. I think there is some with Iraq/Afghanistan, but I suspect this modern military respect thing is over the embarrassment of how the military was treated during Vietnam.

I stand for all anthems in a live situation. I might pass on North Korea, but not many others. I'd even stand (on guard) for the Canadian anthem without rolling my eyes.

Hey that's great. Me too. I don't do it because I'm honoring your military though. Just so that's clear.

Of course. I find the whole thing a little creepy that we do it every professional game. I wish it was only trotted out for special occasions.

Interesting. I would say that "clearly not everyone" would encompass a loud dissenting minority, which could be as low as 10%.

Which reminds me of a related side question I am interested in - would you say that an event that has a 51% chance of happening is "probably" going to happen?

I agree with you on "clearly not everyone" but I went for an overlarge definition.

I would not say it probably would happen. I'd go 50/50, but I could settle for "more likely than not." Probably needs at least 2/3 though depending on the stakes I'd go 3/4.

[El Guapo]

I would not say it probably would happen. I'd go 50/50, but I could settle for "more likely than not." Probably needs at least 2/3 though depending on the stakes I'd go 3/4.

It's interesting because personally I classify "probable" as the same thing as "more likely than not", and encompassing anything from 51% to 99%. At 51% it's "slightly probable" or "barely probable" but would still fall under the probable / probably category.

I seem to be in the minority on that, though.

[GreenGoo]

Huh. Like Christians and gay marriage?

I..wait, what?

How is screwing with other peoples' happiness a personal thing with no concern for external forces?

That's the exact opposite of what I'm talking about here.

I'm talking about Kaepernick doing something deeply personal that doesn't impact anyone else and ignoring other peoples' criticisms. And you counter with the religious right (because not all christians are against gay marriage) preventing gay people from marrying?

What am I missing? Kneeling is the same as suppressing a percentage of the population because both are being "true to yourself"? I mean...what?

[LordMortis]

Of course. I find the whole thing a little creepy that we do it every professional game. I wish it was only trotted out for special occasions.

I don't know if I find it creepy but it has sort of ruined the specialness of the song. It makes it feel like "American Pie" around the 4th of July or "Alice's Restaurant" around Turkey Day feel more special even if neither of those songs even put a lump of a appreciation for everything you've been blessed with in your throat when you were a child. Now I have clearer memories lip synchers and Rosanne singing and the like than I do the love of country merely hearing the opening bars inspired. It doesn't even feel like propaganda. It feels like prelude. Something to build anticipation for something else.

Now if we only heard it at international sporting events, holidays that celebrates USA! then the song would feel different... I wonder if it still does to those who never see local sporting events.

[YellowKing]

I heard a LOL exchange about the flag issue today between two co-workers:

Co-worker One: "There are rules of conduct about how to act towards the flag!"

Co-worker Two: "Well if he obeyed the rules of conduct it wouldn't much of a protest, would it?"

[Isgrimnur]

I heard a LOL exchange about the flag issue today between two co-workers:

Co-worker One: "There are rules of conduct about how to act towards the flag!"

Co-worker Two: "Well if he obeyed the rules of conduct it wouldn't much of a protest, would it?"

[Kurth]

On a personal note I was at a random Fox and Hound for MNF last night in NC. Several people stood for the anthem, hands on hearts, hats off. And then stared down the rest of us with eyes of judgement for not participating. It was fucking creepy. There are a lot of very malleable minds out there. Hoping to impose their very angry worldview on others. I find it comforting that Trump is a huge fucking moron and hasn't truly capitalized on that. We could be in far worse trouble I think. But that is short-term comfort.

I've never heard of a Fox & Hound, so I had to google it to see it's a sports bar chain (incidentally, I found out it's also an "Unassuming gay bar providing a comfortable environment for drinks, pool, pub fare & drag shows" in downtown Portland).

I cannot comprehend people making such an ostentatious show of faux-patriotism in a public place and acting indignant when others didn't follow suit. To me, that's so over the top it's beyond creepy. That shit scares the hell out of me and really does make me feel like we're at the point of us/them in this country where a good portion of the population is completely and totally alien to me.

[Holman]

I cannot comprehend people making such an ostentatious show of faux-patriotism in a public place and acting indignant when others didn't follow suit. To me, that's so over the top it's beyond creepy. That shit scares the hell out of me and really does make me feel like we're at the point of us/them in this country where a good portion of the population is completely and totally alien to me.

Again, reactionary backlash is a helluva drug.

[naednek]

I really dislike God Bless America, and I despise how it became a de facto second anthem after 9/11. I would have much preferred America the Beautiful.

I prefer Take me out to the ball game.

[Pyperkub]

On a personal note I was at a random Fox and Hound for MNF last night in NC. Several people stood for the anthem, hands on hearts, hats off. And then stared down the rest of us with eyes of judgement for not participating. It was fucking creepy. There are a lot of very malleable minds out there. Hoping to impose their very angry worldview on others. I find it comforting that Trump is a huge fucking moron and hasn't truly capitalized on that. We could be in far worse trouble I think. But that is short-term comfort.

Would I be correct in assuming they were all white (and male)?

[LordMortis]

I really dislike God Bless America, and I despise how it became a de facto second anthem after 9/11. I would have much preferred America the Beautiful.

I prefer Take me out to the ball game.

I think we should all just steal the BoSox thang and just sing "Sweet Caroline" so we can yell "Bum bum baaahh" in drunken stupor a few times a year with bonus of moving from a sing to scream at a pace like in no other song.

[naednek]

Actually lets do the Giants Journey song, Don't stop believing

[LordMortis]

Actually lets do the Giants Journey song, Don't stop believing

We already do that. I've never found it any fun.

[naednek]

that's because you don't win any world series with that. Do that in SF with panda hats on, it's magical

[ImLawBoy]

Actually lets do the Giants Journey song, Don't stop believing

The White Sox were doing that song for their World Series win in 2005.

[LordMortis]

that's because you don't win any world series with that. Do that in SF with panda hats on, it's magical

No it's because drunks yelling South Detroit, presumably ironically, feels eye roll worthy and eye rolls are buzz kill, where as the chance to get Diva with 35,000 other Divas bellowing "REACHING OUT TOUCHING ME TOUCHING YOU" is just fun every time.

[Isgrimnur]

Op Ed from Michael Hayden.

As a 39-year military veteran, I think I know something about the flag, the anthem, patriotism, and I think I know why we fight. It’s not to allow the president to divide us by wrapping himself in the national banner. I never imagined myself saying this before Friday, but if now forced to choose in this dispute, put me down with Kaepernick.

Gen. Michael Hayden is a former director of the CIA and the National Security Agency.

[malchior]

On a personal note I was at a random Fox and Hound for MNF last night in NC. Several people stood for the anthem, hands on hearts, hats off. And then stared down the rest of us with eyes of judgement for not participating. It was fucking creepy. There are a lot of very malleable minds out there. Hoping to impose their very angry worldview on others. I find it comforting that Trump is a huge fucking moron and hasn't truly capitalized on that. We could be in far worse trouble I think. But that is short-term comfort.

Would I be correct in assuming they were all white (and male)?

Mostly and they were younger men. One group contained a woman and she stood with them.

[Alefroth]

On a personal note I was at a random Fox and Hound for MNF last night in NC. Several people stood for the anthem, hands on hearts, hats off. And then stared down the rest of us with eyes of judgement for not participating. It was fucking creepy. There are a lot of very malleable minds out there. Hoping to impose their very angry worldview on others. I find it comforting that Trump is a huge fucking moron and hasn't truly capitalized on that. We could be in far worse trouble I think. But that is short-term comfort.

That sort of thing creeps me the hell out.

I've seen this since someone post 9-11 wanted to fight me for not taking my hat off during a 7th inning stretch rendition of God Bless America. These are the same assholes. They suddenly decide what is the proper mark of respect and reverence, no matter how ironic or contradictory. The guy actually said "You take your fucking hat off for the Anthem!" I've made it point ever since to keep my hat on during that "anthem."

I've always found it funny (not haha funny, just peculiar) sitting in a bar watching the people on TV stand for the anthem while everyone is sitting doing shots and talking. But did I think it should be different.


Why do you stand in a bar when the anthem is on TV?
Answer: "Because I respect the flag and this country!"
Truth: "Because some brown BLM asshole didn't stand."

When did you start?
Answer: "As soon as I knew how to walk!"
Truth: "This week."

Also, what happens in a bar with like 5 games on at once? Do they just keep standing? Which TV do you if there are two anthems going? Which one gets sound?

It makes me want to go to a bar with a flag and a recording of the anthem and see how long it us until people stop being respectful.

[Carpet_pissr]

Congressman plans to call for Donald Trump's impeachment over NFL remarks
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/cong ... l-remarks/

[Zaxxon]

I don't mean to alarm anyone, but it would be just as effective for Green to ask Trump, pretty please with a cherry on top, to step down.

[Skinypupy]

Congressman plans to call for Donald Trump's impeachment over NFL remarks
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/cong ... l-remarks/

Of all the ridiculous and absurd things Trump has said and done, this is the thing that is simply a bridge too far?

C'mon, man...

[El Guapo]

Yeah, it's annoying because it cheapens the other serious bases for impeachment.

[tjg_marantz]

Check out @Blueraydre’s Tweet:

Check out the video. He puts it exactly how it is. Hopefully some people here will listen to what is said.

[tjg_marantz]

Can someone fix my post? I can't even edit. Yay mobile