Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:23 am
The latest reports is that McConell is looking into the possibility of getting Luther Strange to resign before the election. That would force a new special election in Alabama.
That doesn't even make sense, since there's already a special election going on. Wouldn't that just give the Governor the opportunity to put someone in temporarily?
I have no idea how the plan would work, but the governor of Alabama just nixed the idea.
However, Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey threw cold water on that idea in an interview Monday with AL.com.
"The election date is set for Dec. 12. Were he to resign I would simply appoint somebody to fill the remaining time until we have the election on Dec. 12," she said.
GreenGoo wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:45 am
It's hard to imagine a Senator posing for a picture mid-grope. I'm skeptical that this is anything but a poor attempt at humour.
This was before he entered politics.
Hard to imagine anyone but a Frat brother posing for a picture mid-grope.
Better?
I read her account. She found out she had been fondled by finding the picture we see in the tweet several days later. Since the picture doesn't actually show her being fondled, I'll still wait for witness corroboration.
She also says he kissed her without her consent. I have no reason to disbelieve her.
pr0ner wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:56 am
So Hefner is gross but you're defending Franken?
Perhaps you should rethink your stance on the issues.
How in any way are those two related?
The parts of Hefner I find gross are proven fact as shown over a lifetime of documentation. I never said it was illegal.
I'm skeptical of a single accusation against Franken because I see the pic she used to decide she was assaulted and she is very clearly not being assaulted in the pic. So yeah, I'm skeptical.
One lead a life of hedonistic debauchery kept a harem of women young enough to be his great grandchildren for his own sexual gratification. The other is accused of sexual assault.
How in the fuck are those two even remotely related? How would you even connect the dots in your head? What part of one scenario do you think applies to the other? Do you at least understand consent versus non-consent?
Give me a break.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I figure it's more or less inevitable that we're going to (probably over the next few months) see a situation where a sitting Senator (and probably some representatives) is accused of systemic and credible sexual harassment / assault allegations, where the governor of the state is of the opposite party. That's going to be quite the firestorm.
GreenGoo wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:45 am
It's hard to imagine a Senator posing for a picture mid-grope. I'm skeptical that this is anything but a poor attempt at humour.
This was before he entered politics.
Hard to imagine anyone but a Frat brother posing for a picture mid-grope.
Better?
I read her account. She found out she had been fondled by finding the picture we see in the tweet several days later. Since the picture doesn't actually show her being fondled, I'll still wait for witness corroboration.
She also says he kissed her without her consent. I have no reason to disbelieve her.
What am I missing here? I read her account, too, and it seems pretty damning when paired with that photo. How is the photo not clear evidence that Franken groped her while she was sleeping?
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Kurth wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:20 pm
What am I missing here? I read her account, too, and it seems pretty damning when paired with that photo. How is the photo not clear evidence that Franken groped her while she was sleeping?
I suppose the only available defense is to claim that he's not technically touching her. (If he isn't; I can't quite tell.)
What makes it so odd is that there's obviously a witness present, and Franken is straight-up mugging for the camera. Presumably the photographer will be tracked down before the day is out.
Yeah, the kissing part preceding the photo makes this all a pretty clear cut case of awfulness all around. I like Franken and think he's been incredibly effective recently, particularly in public hearings with Sessions, Gorsuch, and others, but this is pretty unforgivable. I'm guessing he's just one of many House and Senate members who have these kinds of skeletons in their closets.
I'm pretty much ready for women to be in charge of everything.
Yeah, it seems pretty bad to me. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot more of this sort of dirt on Franken from his time as a comedian. I don't care at all about his admitted drug use or things of that nature, but groping women, even if meant as a joke, is pretty gross.
Kurth wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:20 pm
What am I missing here? I read her account, too, and it seems pretty damning when paired with that photo. How is the photo not clear evidence that Franken groped her while she was sleeping?
He's posing for a picture with his hands outstretched but not making contact? What happens after the picture is taken? Does Franken assault her? does he go to the bathroom? Does he look at the camera to see how the pic turned out?
All I'm saying is that picture does not show sexual assault. Given the pose and the look on his face, he clearly thinks he's being funny. Does that funny include grabbing her chest? Is the pic enough?
For the record, this pic doesn't look much different (in fact, not different at all) from the nearly infinite number of pictures I've seen in college where people pose with a passed out friend/person. Did they all commit sexual assault? Having witnessed some, I know for a fact that they didn't all end in sexual assault. Since her claim that she was groped comes from her seeing this picture after the fact, I'm skeptical. The problem as I see it is that she provided us with the sole piece of evidence she's basing this accusation on, and it's not evidence of anything but Franken posing for a pic with his hands making grabbing motions towards her chest. That's not assault. You could probably make a case for harassment.
As I said, if she says he kissed her against her will, then he kissed her against her will.
The account of the kissing makes the photo worse. Like, if it were just the photo, it could be somewhat dismissed as a stupid and inappropriate joke of some type. Combined with the skit and the backstage forced kiss...it gives the impression of pretty pervy behavior on Franken's part. For what it's worth Franken denies the rehearsal account, though not in a terribly convincing manner - he "doesn't remember it the same way".
One question is whether other women come forward with other accounts of similar activity by Franken. I hope not, since I do like Franken politically quite a bit, although this type of accounting is long overdue.
It's very rare that someone behaving this way in adulthood would do it only once, especially if they're frequently in a position to exploit their status the same way.
And of course many people go further than we ever know. For instance, I kind of wonder what's on Roy Moore's hard drive (if it hasn't already been immersed in battery acid).
What makes it so odd is that there's obviously a witness present, and Franken is straight-up mugging for the camera. Presumably the photographer will be tracked down before the day is out.
And I'll gladly change my tune the moment he does. There's also another dude asleep beside her that may have woken up at some point. If the assault continued, he may have witnessed something.
Holman wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:30 pm
It's very rare that someone behaving this way in adulthood would do it only once, especially if they're frequently in a position to exploit their status the same way.
Agreed. We should know within a week (or less) when/if other accusers come out.
Read her account and try to put yourself in her position. You're rehearsing a skit that Franken wrote. He's demanding to practice the kiss. You think it's fine to turn your head, he says no, it has to be a kiss. You're uncomfortable and don't want to push it further so you give in. He takes the kiss too far. After the trip you find a picture popping up where he's coming towards you with his hand in a groping position, possibly even touching you. Are you really going to laugh and say that's funny. Or are you going to you feel violated and disgusted.
I'm sorry, but pretending to grope someone while they are sleeping is not funny. It's not funny in college and it's sure as hell not funny when a supposed adult male does it.
This was clearly inappropriate sexual behavior and how the Democrats handle it is going to go a long way towards their success in the future. He's started the ball rolling with a pathetic apology/denial. We'll see.
Of course it's not funny. Of course it matters if he took it farther. Pretending to assault someone is by definition not assaulting someone.
His finger tips might be making contact with her KEVLAR vest in the pic. I don't know what happened before or after the pic, but it's not assault. Harassment? Probably.
Kurth wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:20 pm
What am I missing here? I read her account, too, and it seems pretty damning when paired with that photo. How is the photo not clear evidence that Franken groped her while she was sleeping?
He's posing for a picture with his hands outstretched but not making contact? What happens after the picture is taken? Does Franken assault her? does he go to the bathroom? Does he look at the camera to see how the pic turned out?
All I'm saying is that picture does not show sexual assault. Given the pose and the look on his face, he clearly thinks he's being funny. Does that funny include grabbing her chest? Is the pic enough?
For the record, this pic doesn't look much different (in fact, not different at all) from the nearly infinite number of pictures I've seen in college where people pose with a passed out friend/person. Did they all commit sexual assault? Having witnessed some, I know for a fact that they didn't all end in sexual assault. Since her claim that she was groped comes from her seeing this picture after the fact, I'm skeptical. The problem as I see it is that she provided us with the sole piece of evidence she's basing this accusation on, and it's not evidence of anything but Franken posing for a pic with his hands making grabbing motions towards her chest. That's not assault. You could probably make a case for harassment.
As I said, if she says he kissed her against her will, then he kissed her against her will.
I took another look at that photo of Franken and Tweeden, even zooming in, and it still looks to me like he's definitely making contact with her.
Also, I agree with Fitzy's post: It really doesn't matter all that much given the context. Given her account of the unwanted, forced kiss and the frosty relations between them during the whole tour, even if we assume he didn't actually touch her and his hands were hovering just above her breasts, that's clearly an invasion of her space and her dignity. Worse still, given all the context, it makes it seem like it was likely done out of spite or revenge due to her refusals of Franken's advances. Bad shit.
And I think you could definitely make a case for sexual harassment.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
Do you believe me? Do you trust me? Do you like me? 😳
Kurth wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:04 pm
And I think you could definitely make a case for sexual harassment.
Almost certainly. I already suggested as much. What's the difference between harassment and assault?
I'm not sure how his motives matter, but do we know if the pic is before or after the kiss? I wouldn't ask but you seem to think it matters as far as context goes.
McConnell has written to the Senate Ethics Committee asking them to look into these allegations. Which seems fair. The big question here is whether other accusers will come forward, as that would change the tenor of the whole thing. I would guess that Franken will probably ultimately survive this if no one else comes forward, but if there are multiple accusers, seems likely that he'll ultimately be pressed to resign.
What's the definition of sexual assault if not inappropriate touching? Sure, there are degrees of sexual assault, but it's still all sexual assault. We all agreed that Trump''s "grab her by the pussy" constituted sexual assault, so why would "grab her by the boob" not be?
Kurth wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:04 pm
And I think you could definitely make a case for sexual harassment.
Almost certainly. I already suggested as much. What's the difference between harassment and assault?
I'm not sure how his motives matter, but do we know if the pic is before or after the kiss? I wouldn't ask but you seem to think it matters as far as context goes.
Pic was after kiss. Assault requires contact, which I'm pretty sure is just barely occurring in the picture provided. Ironically, if all that was going on was the picture, he probably would be just charged as harassment because of the absolutely minimal contact in the picture. But hearing of his behavior regarding the kiss, it makes darker intents more likely and I bet a judge would entertain assault.
Holman wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:17 pm
There have long been rumors that multiple sitting congressmen (presumably in both parties) have settled harassment claims in secret.
I won't be surprised to see names named within the next few weeks.
And yeah, there's going to be a broad accounting of this coming soon. I would be surprised if there are not multiple resignations (and then special elections) in 2018 as a result of this. There have been reporters putting out requests for accounts from people harassed by representatives and senators. So there's a big bombshell story coming at some point.
El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:13 pm
McConnell has written to the Senate Ethics Committee asking them to look into these allegations. Which seems fair. The big question here is whether other accusers will come forward, as that would change the tenor of the whole thing. I would guess that Franken will probably ultimately survive this if no one else comes forward, but if there are multiple accusers, seems likely that he'll ultimately be pressed to resign.
We'll see, I suppose.
Agree completely, although I have no idea if he can survive even this one accusation.
I've been reading various articles and wow, how they are written varies wildly. Annoying. One article only referred to the accuser as "former playboy bunny" which is an obvious attempt to colour the victim in a different light.
El Guapo wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:13 pm
McConnell has written to the Senate Ethics Committee asking them to look into these allegations. Which seems fair. The big question here is whether other accusers will come forward, as that would change the tenor of the whole thing. I would guess that Franken will probably ultimately survive this if no one else comes forward, but if there are multiple accusers, seems likely that he'll ultimately be pressed to resign.
We'll see, I suppose.
Agree completely, although I have no idea if he can survive even this one accusation.
I've been reading various articles and wow, how they are written varies wildly. Annoying. One article only referred to the accuser as "former playboy bunny" which is an obvious attempt to colour the victim in a different light.
I'm wondering that as well. Democrats have less of an interest in fighting to keep Franken in the Senate because the MN governor is a democrat and any special election would likely happen in a wildly pro-democratic national mood, so they don't have to worry too much about losing the seat (though it's always at least some risk).
Freyland wrote: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:22 pm
Pic was after kiss. Assault requires contact, which I'm pretty sure is just barely occurring in the picture provided. Ironically, if all that was going on was the picture, he probably would be just charged as harassment because of the absolutely minimal contact in the picture. But hearing of his behavior regarding the kiss, it makes darker intents more likely and I bet a judge would entertain assault.
Thanks.
I have no idea what a judge would find. I concede his finger tips are making contact with her person by touching the Kevlar vest at chest level.
If she were wearing platemail, would that change anything? Honest question.
I actually can't tell which side you come down on, skiny. Mind clarifying?
My question is legit. Trying to learn here, since my view seems to be wildly different from many.
Which is frustrating, since I grew up in an incredibly PC environment, with an education system that spent many hours on harassment and sexual harassment, and I don't think I've got a misogynist bone in my body.
To find out what I was taught is not nearly sensitive enough seems...surreal.
Edit: oh, an equality. Enormous amount of time spent on equality.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
