Trump's Full Court Press on Tax Reform

[GreenGoo]

However, "improve the education system" is something that people have been working on for centuries, and are still working on. It's important work, but people were also doing it during the rise of Fox News and the like. Not sure it's super targeted to the problem.

Sure, but that's a problem that is almost unique to America, since State's rights seem to override Federal, and some States are adamant that their population not learn certain things.

Most modern 1st world countries don't suffer from that lack of unity/wide disparity as far as education goes.

But then again, most modern 1st world countries aren't so quick to deny verifiable facts based on conflict with acceptable ideology.

I'm not saying other countries are perfect. Far from it. It just seems that America is farther from it than most.

And that's twice I've crapped on America today on a board filled with Americans who I enjoy and appreciate, so I'm going to go away for a little while.

[Carpet_pissr]

And that's twice I've crapped on America today on a board filled with Americans who I enjoy and appreciate, so I'm going to go away for a little while.

Well, complete disclosure, I instinctively reached for something around my neck when reading your posts, but alas, no pearls were there to clutch.

[Isgrimnur]

France, the largest Western European country, is 211,209 square miles. Texas, the second largest state in the US, is 268,596 square miles.

It's amazing that we have 50 states that speak (almost) the same language.

[gbasden]

And that's twice I've crapped on America today on a board filled with Americans who I enjoy and appreciate, so I'm going to go away for a little while.

I'm pretty sure I've done it more than twice today and I live here. Speaking of, how would Canada feel about adopting a state or two?

[msteelers]

Look at textbooks to see how that works. Want a science text? Better include completely non-scientific information such as creationism on an equal basis along side researched concepts with data to support them.

I'll just leave this here.

Any resident in Florida can now challenge what kids learn in public schools, thanks to a new law that science education advocates worry will make it harder to teach evolution and climate change.

The legislation, which was signed by Gov. Rick Scott (R) this week and goes into effect Saturday, requires school boards to hire an “unbiased hearing officer” who will handle complaints about instructional materials, such as movies, textbooks and novels, that are used in local schools. Any parent or county resident can file a complaint, regardless of whether they have a student in the school system. If the hearing officer deems the challenge justified, he or she can require schools to remove the material in question.

I don't think I need to continue to detail how we have utterly failed to create an actual educational system that nurtures thought above ideology do I?

Look at the blowback to Common Core. The federal government tried to improve education, and conservatives lost their minds.

[Captain Caveman]

I think this one's just about over.

https://twitter.com/DavidMDrucker/statu ... 9469795333

The impact of this bill is going to be far-reaching and awful, and for what? To keep the donor money flowing? It serves no one but the rich and corporations, and actively harms many others.

[msteelers]

The impact of this bill is going to be far-reaching and awful, and for what? To keep the donor money flowing? It serves no one but the rich and corporations, and actively harms many others.

I keep coming back to this 2014 article: The Pitchforks Are Coming.

But the problem isn’t that we have inequality. Some inequality is intrinsic to any high-functioning capitalist economy. The problem is that inequality is at historically high levels and getting worse every day. Our country is rapidly becoming less a capitalist society and more a feudal society. Unless our policies change dramatically, the middle class will disappear, and we will be back to late 18th-century France. Before the revolution.

[Remus West]

I think America is just about over.

https://twitter.com/DavidMDrucker/statu ... 9469795333

The impact of this bill is going to be far-reaching and awful, and for what? To keep the donor money flowing? It serves no one but the rich and corporations, and actively harms many others.

ftfy

[LordMortis]

The impact of this bill is going to be far-reaching and awful, and for what? To keep the donor money flowing? It serves no one but the rich and corporations, and actively harms many others.

I keep coming back to this 2014 article: The Pitchforks Are Coming.

But the problem isn’t that we have inequality. Some inequality is intrinsic to any high-functioning capitalist economy. The problem is that inequality is at historically high levels and getting worse every day. Our country is rapidly becoming less a capitalist society and more a feudal society. Unless our policies change dramatically, the middle class will disappear, and we will be back to late 18th-century France. Before the revolution.

I keep coming back to "Everything is fine. Until it's not."

[Chaz]

If anyone was still holding onto any respect for McCain as a voice of reason, I think this should just about kill that notion. He's argued before for regular order, then votes in favor of this thing.

I'm against this thing even though my household income is high enough that we're in the "should still be relatively okay" area, depending on how the final thing that comes out of committee looks like. My mother, who's definitely below the poverty line and living in upstate NY, is likely to get hammered.

[LordMortis]

I'm against this thing even though my household income is high enough that we're in the "should still be relatively okay" area, depending on how the final thing that comes out of committee looks like. My mother, who's definitely below the poverty line and living in upstate NY, is likely to get hammered.

As a single guy with no kids, no mortgage, no deductions, and crazy high taxes, I assume this is a gift for me. The problem is I'd rather sensible public services that equate to the modern age than a lower tax rate.

[Chaz]

I'm against this thing even though my household income is high enough that we're in the "should still be relatively okay" area, depending on how the final thing that comes out of committee looks like. My mother, who's definitely below the poverty line and living in upstate NY, is likely to get hammered.

As a single guy with no kids, no mortgage, no deductions, and crazy high taxes, I assume this is a gift for me. The problem is I'd rather sensible public services that equate to the modern age than a lower tax rate.

Especially since either the tax cuts go away within a few years, or they start enacting drastic cuts to allow them to keep the tax cuts (three guesses what they're planning on doing).

[NickAragua]

Well, I'm sure *something* will trickle down.

It might not be money though, just fair warning.

[Carpet_pissr]

Well, I'm sure *something* will trickle down.

It might not be money though, just fair warning.

Is it cake? It's cake, isn't it?!?! I LOVE CAKE!!

[Octavious]

I honestly don't know how screwed I will be personally from this. I think the first few years will be fine, but when stuff starts rolling out I will get hosed. Does this contain triggers for spending? I know they were talking about it. From my understanding if they don't hit a certain threshold (which everyone knows it won't) they will start cutting spending, because god forbid they roll back these awesome breaks for the rich.

So around 2025-2027 we should see a massive collapse. Dump will either be dead or MORE senile by then so win-win for him. Whatever this is just a joke at this point. For MCcain to come out and say he thinks this will boost the economy and help the middle class is such bullshit. NJ is going to go into the crapper even more now. If house values plummet I may finally give up and walk away. It was a solid plan that has work for or dead leader.

[NickAragua]

Well, I'm sure *something* will trickle down.

It might not be money though, just fair warning.

Is it cake? It's cake, isn't it?!?! I LOVE CAKE!!

Chocolate cake. Gooey, melty, chocolate cake.

[stessier]

Because everyone has differing tax situations, the NYT took 25,000 families and demonstrated what the new tax plan would do to them. It's pretty interesting with nice graphs. It's also paywalled (obviously).

[Isgrimnur]

It looks like we would actually benefit personally. Itemized deductions last year were below the new standard, and no state income tax certainly works to our benefit. No clue how my current schooling will impact things, however. And, of course, I'm not a fan of screwing over other states for my benefit.

Perhaps a side effect of this will be to drive blue voters into red states to flee the negative tax implications. The purpling of the heartland might be an unanticipated result of this.

[Zaxxon]

Because everyone has differing tax situations, the NYT took 25,000 families and demonstrated what the new tax plan would do to them. It's pretty interesting with nice graphs. It's also paywalled (obviously).

It's actually not paywalled. Your link opened right up for me. Nice.

[ImLawBoy]

Is there a site that folks are using to estimate the tax implications to them? I'm concerned with losing the itemization and being in a high tax (blue) state that this will ding us pretty bad, but I'd rather know for certain.

[Octavious]

Opened up my taxes from last year and since itemizing is entirely pointless for me now my taxable income would increase by $2,618. The additional $1,000.00 dollar tax credit *should* offset this I believe, BUT I'm not clear on if you can still deduct childcare costs. That's separate from itemizing. If I can't do that anymore that's $600 I'm out. Either way I'm either losing or breaking even. Thanks TRUMP!

I believe that additional 1,000 expires in 5-6 years, but nobody seems to be pointing that out. If that's true people will just get creamed when it drops back down to $1,000.00. This blows.

[Smoove_B]

A generational perspective on the GOP tax plan:

The baby boom is being evicted from the penthouse of American politics. And on the way out, it has decided to trash the place.

That’s probably the best way to understand the generational implications of the tax legislation Republicans are driving through Congress.

...

Higher turnout rates among baby boomers will preserve their advantage among actual voters for a while. But sometime around 2024, Millennials will likely surpass them. The post-Millennials, Americans born after 2000 who’ll enter the electorate starting in 2020, will widen the advantage. This generational shift will trigger a profound racial change: While about 80 percent of the baby boom is white, over two-fifths of Millennials and nearly half of the post-Millennials are not.

...

People who own corporate stock and/or their own businesses will gain the most from the plans’ cuts in business taxes. Fed data again show that whites are twice as likely as non-whites to own one or the other—and that older adults are more likely to do so than younger people. Overall, the tax bills reward wealth, and wealth accumulates with age: Households headed by people between 55 and 64 years old have an average net worth that’s 15 times that of households headed by people younger than 35, the data show.

[El Guapo]

Opened up my taxes from last year and since itemizing is entirely pointless for me now my taxable income would increase by $2,618. The additional $1,000.00 dollar tax credit *should* offset this I believe, BUT I'm not clear on if you can still deduct childcare costs. That's separate from itemizing. If I can't do that anymore that's $600 I'm out. Either way I'm either losing or breaking even. Thanks TRUMP!

I believe that additional 1,000 expires in 5-6 years, but nobody seems to be pointing that out. If that's true people will just get creamed when it drops back down to $1,000.00. This blows.

Note that even if the Senate bill passes as is, it'll still need to be reconciled with the House. And there are some material differences as it stands, including the House bill keeping the mandate, and the House bill keeping the SALT deductions to some degree, just income-limited.

[Octavious]

Even if they leave it at a 10,000 cap I can't itemize since both plans remove personal exemptions. My expenses without the exemption will be less than the standard deduction. My worst case scenario is that they leave a 10,000 cap and drop the child credit down to compensate. So I'm personally "better" with the Senate plan. My brothers estimation that he will owe thousands more is 100% correct. NJ is fucked.

[pr0ner]

Is there a site that folks are using to estimate the tax implications to them? I'm concerned with losing the itemization and being in a high tax (blue) state that this will ding us pretty bad, but I'd rather know for certain.

This calculator is fairly simplistic, as it doesn't have inputs for all of SALT (just property taxes) or deductions beyond mortgage/charity/property tax, but it's a start.

[pr0ner]

Even if they leave it at a 10,000 cap I can't itemize since both plans remove personal exemptions. My expenses without the exemption will be less than the standard deduction. My worst case scenario is that they leave a 10,000 cap and drop the child credit down to compensate. So I'm personally "better" with the Senate plan. My brothers estimation that he will owe thousands more is 100% correct. NJ is fucked.

I didn't think the personal exemption(s) had anything to do with itemizing deductions.

[Octavious]

Sure did. If you itemized you also got the personal exemption slapped on top. It's clear as day on my tax forms as I just checked. That's what so evil about this plan. There's a VERY small portion that will have any purpose to itemize anymore.

So for last year:
Itemized + Personal exemption = 27,068 (12,150 personal exemption + 14,918 itemized)
New Standard = 24,000 (I think, but whatever the new one is) if I tried to itemize it would be around 15,000 so totally pointless now.

People are going to lose their minds when they see what actually happens.


Oh and if I actually had a crazy mortgage this is what will happen
Itemized + Personal exemption = 35,068 (Assuming I have a house in a nice town in Jersey. Hint I don't. )
New Standard = 24,000 (As I can't deduct my now insane property taxes again itemizing is 100% pointless. Assuming Senate plan of course)
11,068 increase in taxable income. OUCH

I'm too lazy to figure out the house bill, for a high property tax, but again it's likely pointless to itemize. Even with 14K property tax 10K that you can itemized, you would have to find another magical 14k somewhere to even bother... So same end result.

Bam MAGA!

[Octavious]

Is there a site that folks are using to estimate the tax implications to them? I'm concerned with losing the itemization and being in a high tax (blue) state that this will ding us pretty bad, but I'd rather know for certain.

This calculator is fairly simplistic, as it doesn't have inputs for all of SALT (just property taxes) or deductions beyond mortgage/charity/property tax, but it's a start.

Calculator 100% matched my calculation on my taxable income going up. it actually shows my taxes going down $352.00 from what I paid last year. So I'm pretty sure I personally won't die from this plan. People without kids and a huge mortgage? Good luck.

[geezer]

I read somewhere that small businesses (pass-through entities I guess) will no longer be able to deduct things like travel etc. can that be right???

[pr0ner]

Sure did. If you itemized you also got the personal exemption slapped on top. It's clear as day on my tax forms as I just checked. That's what so evil about this plan. There's a VERY small portion that will have any purpose to itemize anymore.

I disagree - personal exemptions have nothing to do with deductions, standard or itemized. They're separate items. You get the personal exemption regardless of whether you itemize or take the standard deduction.

[Octavious]

Correct, but my point is that there's no point to itemize anymore if you don't get the personal exemption. The standard deduction will be higher in most cases. (But lower than what you had with the old rules.) That's how my taxable income goes up almost 3k.

Simple example family of 3:
2017
Standard deduction $12,600 + you get the sweet sweet loving of 4050 x 3 = 24,750

2018
You will get 24,000, so your taxable income will go up $750.00

To itemize you would have to have over 24,000 to itemize. Good luck for most people on that with them removing things you can itemize.

Doesn't matter if one has another to do with the other. At the end of the day you are trying to lower your taxable income and this scenario and most others it will be higher.

*Note a family of 3 that was taking a standard deduction will end up better off in this example because of the rate changes and the increase in child credits. Just wanted to point that out as it's not all doom and gloom. I think a lot of families won't get totally screwed.*

[malchior]

Right - deduction is independent of personal exemptions.

By the by - according to that calculator the changes make my taxable income increase between 15 to 20k due to elimination of deductions. So my tax bill actually so my bill goes up something like $6K versus my back of envelope math at $5K. That is $500 a month. That is insane. I can certainly survive it but it is plain wrong. That is money being drained out of NJ's economy to send it off-shore. This is flat out thieving.

[pr0ner]

Correct, but my point is that there's no point to itemize anymore if you don't get the personal exemption. The standard deduction will be higher in most cases. (But lower than what you had with the old rules.) That's how my taxable income goes up almost 3k.

???

There's no point to itemize if you can't get your deductions past the standard deduction. The personal exemption has nothing whatsoever to do with that.

[Kurth]

This is going to be crushing for charities.

[malchior]

This is going to be crushing for charities.

Charities, technology, and our children's futures. Rushed through so that they can pay off their donors. This is irresponsible. This is *wrong*. And it is stupid. This will set off shock waves that I feel people can not even see yet.

[El Guapo]

This is going to be crushing for charities.

Awesome. What does this do to charities? I assume that kicking puppies is now deductible but giving to charities is not?

[pr0ner]

This is going to be crushing for charities.

Charities, technology, and our children's futures. Rushed through so that they can pay off their donors. This is irresponsible. This is *wrong*. And it is stupid. This will set off shock waves that I feel people can not even see yet.

This guy compares it to the run up to the Great Depression.

In the 1920s, Republicans were in full control of the federal government and used that power to pursue their objective to “make the well-to-do prosperous.” It didn’t “leak through on those below.” In that decade, the mass-production American economy became dependent on mass consumption. For it to work, the masses need a sufficient share of the national income to be able to consume what is being produced.

Republican policies in the ’20s instead pushed to concentrate more of the income at the top. Nine decades later, Republicans are rushing to do it again — and they are sprinting toward an economic cliff. Another round of Government of the People, by the Republicans, for the super-rich will be catastrophic. The American people must call a halt before it’s too late.

[Octavious]

Correct, but my point is that there's no point to itemize anymore if you don't get the personal exemption. The standard deduction will be higher in most cases. (But lower than what you had with the old rules.) That's how my taxable income goes up almost 3k.

???

There's no point to itemize if you can't get your deductions past the standard deduction. The personal exemption has nothing whatsoever to do with that.

This was my point..

Simple example family of 3:
2017
Standard deduction $12,600 + you get the sweet sweet loving of 4050 x 3 = 24,750

2018
You will get 24,000, so your taxable income will go up $750.00

At the end of the day your taxable income has now gone up 750.00 bucks...Anyway I give up as I apparently stink at explaining it.

[pr0ner]

This is going to be crushing for charities.

Awesome. What does this do to charities? I assume that kicking puppies is now deductible but giving to charities is not?

Maybe he's saying that if people aren't easily able to deduct their charitable contributions from their taxes due to the increase in the standard deduction, they will be less likely to donate?

[pr0ner]

Correct, but my point is that there's no point to itemize anymore if you don't get the personal exemption. The standard deduction will be higher in most cases. (But lower than what you had with the old rules.) That's how my taxable income goes up almost 3k.

???

There's no point to itemize if you can't get your deductions past the standard deduction. The personal exemption has nothing whatsoever to do with that.

This was my point..

Simple example family of 3:
2017
Standard deduction $12,600 + you get the sweet sweet loving of 4050 x 3 = 24,750

2018
You will get 24,000, so your taxable income will go up $750.00

At the end of the day your taxable income has now gone up 750.00 bucks...Anyway I give up as I apparently stink at explaining it.

Your math works, but you're conflating deductions and exemptions to get there.