Rip wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:02 pm
I don't see how you guys can talk about trusting Mueller and the FBI investigation on one matter and then cry authoritarianism when they investigate something you don't want them to. Do you not trust them? Do you think they are going to fabricate evidence? Seems to me it is just like the Mueller investigation, if they find something improper they will report on it with evidence. If nothing was done wrong then it will go nowhere.
Agreed on the Clinton Foundation; disagree on Steele.
Though, how many times does the FBI have to say "not worth prosecuting" before you believe them?
That depends on whether he lied to the FBI. If Manafort can get the arm twist for lying no reason Steele shouldn't as well.
Failing to would simply lend credence to the entire deep state notion.
“A simple democracy is the devil’s own government.”
— Benjamin Rush --
Rip wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:02 pm
I don't see how you guys can talk about trusting Mueller and the FBI investigation on one matter and then cry authoritarianism when they investigate something you don't want them to. Do you not trust them? Do you think they are going to fabricate evidence? Seems to me it is just like the Mueller investigation, if they find something improper they will report on it with evidence. If nothing was done wrong then it will go nowhere.
Agreed on the Clinton Foundation; disagree on Steele.
Though, how many times does the FBI have to say "not worth prosecuting" before you believe them?
That depends on whether he lied to the FBI. If Manafort can get the arm twist for lying no reason Steele shouldn't as well.
Failing to would simply lend credence to the entire deep state notion.
Did I miss the new cycle where Manafort was called on by Congressional members of the judiciary committee to be investigated or the one where Steele was lying to Mueller and Mueller let him slide?
Rip wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:36 pmFailing to would simply lend credence to the entire deep state notion.
That, of course, is ultimately the point of the referral. It's unclear whether Graham and Grassley have any evidence / information that the FBI doesn't already. Most likely the intent of the referral is just to shade Steele (by making him look vaguely criminal), and to dissuade others from participating in investigating Trump.
This is fucking disgusting. Every GOP official needs to be run out of office ASAP.
If this goes anywhere then we will at know we are deep in banana republic territory. The Republicans deserve to be dismantled piece by piece.
Yeah, this is deadly serious stuff.
Every Republican who throws in with this kind of authoritarianism deserves to go down in shame. Our only hope is a massive wave washing them out in 2018 before it's too late.
How is it authoritarianism for the FBI to investigate?
Seems like an standard investigation.
The Justice Department has launched a new inquiry into whether the Clinton Foundation engaged in any pay-to-play politics or other illegal activities while Hillary Clinton served as secretary of State, law enforcement officials and a witness tells The Hill.
FBI agents from Little Rock, Ark., where the foundation was started, have taken the lead in the investigation and have interviewed at least one witness in the last month, and law enforcement officials said additional activities are expected in the coming weeks.
The officials, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, said the probe is examining whether the Clintons promised or performed any policy favors in return for largesse to their charitable efforts or whether donors made commitments of donations in hopes of securing government outcomes.
The probe may also examine whether any tax-exempt assets were converted for personal or political use and whether the foundation complied with applicable tax laws, the officials said.
One witness recently interviewed by the FBI described the session to The Hill as “extremely professional and unquestionably thorough” and focused on questions about whether donors to Clinton charitable efforts received any favorable treatment from the Obama administration on a policy decision previously highlighted in media reports.
The witness discussed his interview solely on the grounds of anonymity. He said the agents were from Little Rock and their questions focused on government decisions and discussions of donations to Clinton entities during the time Hillary Clinton led President Obama's State Department.
I don't see how you guys can talk about trusting Mueller and the FBI investigation on one matter and then cry authoritarianism when they investigate something you don't want them to. Do you not trust them? Do you think they are going to fabricate evidence? Seems to me it is just like the Mueller investigation, if they find something improper they will report on it with evidence. If nothing was done wrong then it will go nowhere.
Basically because the Senate NEVER interviewed Steele. They are going upon what they think he may have said.
In other words, hearsay.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
“Attorney General Jeff Sessions has recused himself from the Russia investigation, but it would appear he has no control at all of the premier law enforcement agency in the world,” the lawmakers wrote. “It is time for Sessions to start managing in a spirit of transparency to bring all of this improper behavior to light and stop further violations.
“If Sessions can’t address this issue immediately, then we have one final question needing an answer: When is it time for a new attorney general? Sadly, it seems the answer is now.”
Kraken wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:51 pmI wonder if Trump's base will ever realize that he's sold them down the river by embracing the establishment. Probably not, unless Bannon peels some of them away. They are not known for their thoughtfulness.
The supportive 35% aren't going to be swayed. I've come to accept that this means that 35% of people in the US want either chaos, white supremacy, reign of religion, or authoritarianism - or some mix of the above - and are willing to swallow whatever else comes with it to get it.
Black Lives Matter
2021-01-20: The first good night's sleep I had in 4 years.
2025-01-20: The nightmares continue.
Kraken wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:51 pmI wonder if Trump's base will ever realize that he's sold them down the river by embracing the establishment. Probably not, unless Bannon peels some of them away. They are not known for their thoughtfulness.
The supportive 35% aren't going to be swayed. I've come to accept that this means that 35% of people in the US want either chaos, white supremacy, reign of religion, or authoritarianism - or some mix of the above - and are willing to swallow whatever else comes with it to get it.
Armageddon and the Rapture or is that reign of religion? There is some seriously Calvinist shit going on here in a nationalistic Koreshic sort of way and I think they are no small percentage of that 35%. I remember way back when on OO, I had some long discussions with someone who grew up on a seriously creationist household (I forget who. He started with G. Geezer comes to mind but I think it was him) and I had a real hard time believing the sort of white washing he got and escaped from and that the creationist willful ignorant were really as influential as flat earthers. Now, some twenty plus years later, I've slowly come to the realization of wrong I have been to hold that much faith in how far we've come as a culture. I am so sad to have my own Revalation.
Kraken wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:51 pmI wonder if Trump's base will ever realize that he's sold them down the river by embracing the establishment. Probably not, unless Bannon peels some of them away. They are not known for their thoughtfulness.
The supportive 35% aren't going to be swayed. I've come to accept that this means that 35% of people in the US want either chaos, white supremacy, reign of religion, or authoritarianism - or some mix of the above - and are willing to swallow whatever else comes with it to get it.
Armageddon and the Rapture or is that reign of religion? There is some seriously Calvinist shit going on here in a nationalistic Koreshic sort of way and I think they are no small percentage of that 35%. I remember way back when on OO, I had some long discussions with someone who grew up on a seriously creationist household (I forget who. He started with G. Geezer comes to mind but I think it was him) and I had a real hard time believing the sort of white washing he got and escaped from and that the creationist willful ignorant were really as influential as flat earthers. Now, some twenty plus years later, I've slowly come to the realization of wrong I have been to hold that much faith in how far we've come as a culture. I am so sad to have my own Revalation.
Who kept the OO archives? I would love to go back and find that those many pages on how alive and well creationism is based on Christian sophistry and then go back in time and slap myself for not believing it possible.
Kraken wrote: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:51 pmI wonder if Trump's base will ever realize that he's sold them down the river by embracing the establishment. Probably not, unless Bannon peels some of them away. They are not known for their thoughtfulness.
The supportive 35% aren't going to be swayed. I've come to accept that this means that 35% of people in the US want either chaos, white supremacy, reign of religion, or authoritarianism - or some mix of the above - and are willing to swallow whatever else comes with it to get it.
Armageddon and the Rapture or is that reign of religion? There is some seriously Calvinist shit going on here in a nationalistic Koreshic sort of way and I think they are no small percentage of that 35%. I remember way back when on OO, I had some long discussions with someone who grew up on a seriously creationist household (I forget who. He started with G. Geezer comes to mind but I think it was him) and I had a real hard time believing the sort of white washing he got and escaped from and that the creationist willful ignorant were really as influential as flat earthers. Now, some twenty plus years later, I've slowly come to the realization of wrong I have been to hold that much faith in how far we've come as a culture. I am so sad to have my own Revalation.
This is why Fantasyland: How America Went Haywire: A 500-Year History is one of my favorite books of last year. The author makes a compelling argument that America has always been this way to some extent. He starts by framing the conversation detailing how the country's non-native roots are literally people who were religious whack-a-doos to begin with.
malchior wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:21 pmHe starts by framing the conversation detailing how the country's non-native roots are literally people who were religious whack-a-doos to begin with.
To be fair, pretty much everyone in Europe in that day & age was a whack-a-doo. If you demonstrated even the slightest non-whack-a-doo tendancies, you were in for a world of hurt. If you did whack-a-doo, but the wrong flavor of it, you were in a world of hurt.
Black Lives Matter
2021-01-20: The first good night's sleep I had in 4 years.
2025-01-20: The nightmares continue.
LordMortis wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:56 pm
Who kept the OO archives? I would love to go back and find that those many pages on how alive and well creationism is based on Christian sophistry and then go back in time and slap myself for not believing it possible.
LordMortis wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:56 pm
Who kept the OO archives? I would love to go back and find that those many pages on how alive and well creationism is based on Christian sophistry and then go back in time and slap myself for not believing it possible.
I wonder if this could be coming to a head sooner than people think, like within the next few months. I would think you'd seek the Trump interview towards the end of the investigation.
My favorite part:
“This is moving faster than anyone really realizes,” the person said. Trump is comfortable participating in an interview and believes it would put to rest questions about whether his campaign coordinated with Russia in the 2016 election, the person added.
Would Trump's lawyers let it happen? There is no way he can make it through a 5 minute interview without lying. He might not even mean to - it's just his nature.
stessier wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:39 pm
Would Trump's lawyers let it happen? There is no way he can make it through a 5 minute interview without lying. He might not even mean to - it's just his nature.
Right after he turns over his tax returns and medical records and tape recordings of conversations with Comey and...
stessier wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:39 pm
Would Trump's lawyers let it happen? There is no way he can make it through a 5 minute interview without lying. He might not even mean to - it's just his nature.
The article describes the debate within the Trump attorney team. They're starting by seeing if they can work out a deal with Mueller to submit written answers - which I mean, worth a shot, but I very much doubt Mueller would ever agree to that. After that, I'm sure that they'd rather not have Trump interview, but the question is whether Mueller could ultimately resort to compulsory process if need be.
El Guapo wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:19 pm
My favorite part:
“This is moving faster than anyone really realizes,” the person said. Trump is comfortable participating in an interview and believes it would put to rest questions about whether his campaign coordinated with Russia in the 2016 election, the person added.
Totally.
I can believe this.
All the accounts (and Wolff's is only the latest) tell us how Trump insulates himself from reality by ignoring it, and of how his cronies and handlers enable this.
For example, it's totally possible that Trump met the Russians who came to Trump Tower, agreed to drop sanctions in exchange for their help in the campaign, and *still believes that he did not engage in collusion*.
When undeniable evidence appears, Trump denies it anyway. That's normal for a compulsive liar, but the key to Trump is that he believes his own lies.
I think it's time that drumpf faces the consequences of his actions. No more enabling.
I'm not confident that the American political and justice systems are willing to put a sitting president in jail, assuming the investigation warrants prosecution.
GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:00 pm
I think it's time that drumpf faces the consequences of his actions. No more enabling.
I'm not confident that the American political and justice systems are willing to put a sitting president in jail, assuming the investigation warrants prosecution.
But God, do I hope they will.
Just remember that every Trump bankruptcy only led to his investors getting screwed, he always came out ok. That doesn't bode well for us.
Even Nixon didn't go to jail.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:00 pm
I think it's time that drumpf faces the consequences of his actions. No more enabling.
I'm not confident that the American political and justice systems are willing to put a sitting president in jail, assuming the investigation warrants prosecution.
But God, do I hope they will.
FWIW the majority view (though I haven't read up on this myself) appears to be that (a a constitutional matter, a sitting president cannot be criminally tried while in office. In this scenario the remedy would be for Congress to impeach and remove the president, *then* for him to be criminally tried.
But there's no real binding law or precedent (other than one's interpretations of the constitution), so who knows. And obviously what matters most in the short term is what Mueller thinks on this issue.
GreenGoo wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:00 pm
I think it's time that drumpf faces the consequences of his actions. No more enabling.
I'm not confident that the American political and justice systems are willing to put a sitting president in jail, assuming the investigation warrants prosecution.
But God, do I hope they will.
Just remember that every Trump bankruptcy only led to his investors getting screwed, he always came out ok. That doesn't bode well for us.
Even Nixon didn't go to jail.
Nixon would have gone to jail but for the pardon, though.
Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., on Tuesday released the full transcript from Fusion GPS co-founder Glenn Simpson's testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee regarding Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.
Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., on Tuesday released the full transcript from Fusion GPS co-founder Glenn Simpson's testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee regarding Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.
Conservatives have recently been pushing a theory that the basis for the FBI investigation was an opposition research document compiled at the behest of Clinton’s campaign. Simpson’s testimony seems to confirm the Times account and thereby debunk a conservative counternarrative that places the dossier itself at the center of the story.
Because conservatives are “just asking questions” about the FBI and Steele, they tend not to explicitly state what they think happened. But in broad strokes, the theory is something like this:
Trump’s political enemies paid Fusion GPS to write a dossier full of debunked claims about his connections to Russia.
“Deep state” anti-Trump elements in the FBI used this false opposition research document to obtain a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court warrant targeting Michael Flynn.
The Flynn surveillance, which never should have been allowed because it was based on the phony dossier, was used to catch him in a lie about a meeting with Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak that was completely innocuous.
This got Flynn fired and, by making meetings with Kislyak into a hot-button issue, also forced Sessions into recusing himself, which in turn gave Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein (whom Trump has decided is “a Democrat,” though it’s not clear why) the opportunity to appoint Robert Mueller as special counsel.
Mueller, in turn, is buddies with former FBI Director James Comey, who is bitter about having been fired by Trump (Comey under this theory is a bad guy because he went too easy on Hillary Clinton over the email server, and we’re not supposed to pay attention to the fact that Trump’s stated reason for firing him was that he was too hard on Clinton) and is therefore leading an anti-Trump witch hunt.
Simpson’s testimony appears to independently corroborate what the New York Times already reported — the FBI listened to Steele because they already had an investigation into this question underway, an investigation that was launched because Papadopoulos’s conversation with Downer was shared with other Australian officials, who ultimately passed word of it to their American counterparts once the hacking of Democratic email accounts became a big deal.
As best as we can tell, this, rather than Steele’s memo, was the start of the investigation.
I detest the blatant lies which depend on "business as usual" and public ignorance to rally the party faithful on FOX-Breitbart.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
Yeah, that was a hell of a read. We're in for a long year.
I can't imagine, even at my most inebriated, hearing a bouncer offering me an hour with a stripper for only $1,400 and thinking That sounds like a reasonable idea.-Two Sheds
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
The fact that so much of this existed before the election and you still ended up with Drumpf is straight out of a spy novel.
I despise every single person that had even an inkling of any of this and still voted for or provided cover for Drumpf. That Republicans have access to this interview and are attempting to discredit it not through more investigation and fact finding, but through disinformation and withholding it from the public...good god.
As bad as Drumpf is, and he's clearly very freakin' bad, those attempting to cover for it are worse.
