The Former Trump Presidency Thread

[malchior]

Pull out of TPP? This is my bad, I thought there was no agreement in place prior to bailing. Ditto with the Paris Accords. It should be noted that getting the TPPin place was not a congressional slam dunk, with many democrats resisting. UNESCO doesn't make me blink, really, because it's not the first time the US has bailed on this one, and in the last 30 years the US has been out of it more than in. Whether you think it's good/bad, it's not uniquely terrible to back out.

Just wait. Many if not most of the involved countries are cozying up to China and in some cases Russia based on the (now accurate) perception that the US is abandoning Asia. China has no problem imposing their vision in the vacuum. It will come at the cost of human rights and potentially stability in Asia. It will be seen as a HUGE blunder eventually. There are several analyses that have come to this conclusion by the big national strategy firms. Rand has a pretty comprehensive one that I read that went into all the global political fallout that they predict.

As to getting it through Congress - it would have needed changes but the belief was that that would have been a reasonable outcome of the near death had Clinton been elected. It might have delayed it 2 or 3 years but it would have been better than complete surrender. Notice how NAFTA hasn't been imploded...because someone talked some sense into Trump's stooges. A complete re-ordering pf the collective North American economy after 20 years of the regime would have been an economic disaster.

[malchior]

The reasons that they originally decided to become civil servants aren’t relevant. The problem is the mechanics of how positions are filled. A GS-14 that is sent packing or leaves generally cannot come back in as a GS-14. Coming back can set them back decades from where they were. There are institutional barriers to leaving and returning.

And there is a difference between forgoing a higher salary when starting out, and having to give up a significantly higher salary that your actually making to come back.

I will chalk this up to you just not being aware of the mechanics of how things work in the US federal govt.

+1. This is the single biggest reason that so much cybersecurity is contracted in the Government space as an example. They can't even come close to paying the private sector rate for scarce IT Security resources. At the entry level they miss by 20-30K at least and it gets worse from there.

[RunningMn9]

This is the single biggest reason that so much cybersecurity is contracted in the Government space as an example. They can't even come close to paying the private sector rate for scarce IT Security resources. At the entry level they miss by 20-30K at least and it gets worse from there.

I can't speak for cybersecurity contracting, but in my experience it's also true that it's cheaper for the govt to pay on a contract because govt employees are really expensive (despite lower salaries). For cybersecurity (or for software engineering), contracting those services out is a viable option. Not so much for career diplomats.

[GreenGoo]

The reasons that they originally decided to become civil servants aren’t relevant. The problem is the mechanics of how positions are filled. A GS-14 that is sent packing or leaves generally cannot come back in as a GS-14. Coming back can set them back decades from where they were. There are institutional barriers to leaving and returning.

And there is a difference between forgoing a higher salary when starting out, and having to give up a significantly higher salary that your actually making to come back.

I will chalk this up to you just not being aware of the mechanics of how things work in the US federal govt.

First, as I wrote out my previous response, I absolutely knew that you were going to tell me that I don't know how the federal government works, but you do because you're a DoD contractor. You're right, I don't know how the US Federal govt works exactly in this case, but I do know that there are significant parallels between the US and Canadian federal government, especially with regards to benefits, motivations and salaries. My 2 decades of working for the Canadian federal government tells me I know exactly what I'm talking about.

A G-14 seems to be the equivalent of an EX1 or EX2, if salaries are comparable, and I can tell you that the only barriers between leaving and coming back is that someone wants to hire you. EX's come from private industry ALL THE TIME and are just parachuted in.

Of course someone's motivations for being a public servant or not are relevant. That's like saying why you're a contractor is not relevant to why you're a contractor.

I made it clear that some of what you said would almost certainly be true. I also know for a fact (because I've witnessed it many times) that what I said is also true. Perhaps it's because you don't understand what motivates civil employees or just how much flexibility there is at the executive level that you think returning (or even coming to for the first time) to the federal government is some sort of impossible task at higher levels of employment (it's actually slightly easier at the EX levels)?

As for malchior, he's talking about the discrepancy between private and public sectors. Well, no shit. The scenarios we were discussing is people being forced out of the government, not people who willingly chose the higher salary of private. What malchoir says is absolutely true, but has nothing to do with what we're talking about. It doesn't help that IT security is one of the most egregious examples of the disparate gap between what the skills involved are worth and what the federal government is willing to pay.

In any case, I know what's involved in leaving and returning. Maybe the US federal government is totally different in this area than the Canadian federal government. I wouldn't put any money on it though.

[RunningMn9]

Yeah, I can tell you that there are some pretty significant differences between the Canadian and US system I guess.

GS-13/14/15 positions are scarce and the number of them that exist is controlled. They are also open-compete positions. So it isn’t a situation where the govt can say, I want to hire you, and you’d be a GS-14, so here’s a job.

The GS-14 position has to be authorized to exist in the first place. Then when it comes available it has to be an open compete. The interview process is based on a point system, and if you aren’t a current govt employee, you have no chance.

I didn’t point out that you may not know how the US federal govt works to be smarmy. I pointed it out because you clearly don’t seem to understand that leaving the employ of the federal govt is almost always a one way path. It’s quite hard to return unless you are a very low-level employee.


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[Remus West]

He's not doing an overly bad job either

He absolutely is doing a horrible job. Our international relations have been weakened and continue to be weakened daily. Our trade agreements have been shredded and our environment is in more danger than ever. All of this to simply put more lining in the pockets of the ultra wealthy. He is not just a horrible person he is an absolutely horrible president and has been damaging the office as much as he has America's standing n the world. Just because we have not yet entered The Great Depression II doesn't mean he doesn't suck ass.

Which trade agreements are shredded? Your environment isn't in any more or less danger than during Obama's last year, is it?

Have you looked at the EPA recently? Yes, the environment is in much greater danger. You may not recall being able to watch the Rouge River burn not having lived near here but I remember and have no interest in reliving. Environmental regulations were put in place for a reason and that reason wasn't to impede corporations growth. He has been gutting those regulations.

There have been a number of deregulations, and a number of departments gutted, but those have yet to have an impact outside of their immediate sphere of influence.

and yet they all impact our world in one way or another which is why they pose such a danger. I didn't say they had caused damage. They have created more concern and greater possibility for damage.

Net Neutrality is obviously one I care about, but you almost lost that one under Obama. It was a near thing.

While this one creates the possibility for abuse and loss of freedoms it is actually less dangerous overall then the rollbacks of protections for the river and lands. Net neutrality can be restored if removed and once restored will be as though it never left after a little bit. Pollute a river to the point of killing native life and it is at best years and years before it returns to "normal". Tear the land apart and it will never be the same as before you mined it.

Just tell me specifically what he has done that makes him worse than, say, Bush. Or Obama on domestic surveillance for example.

Are we ignoring his open racism or efforts to divide the nation further? Those alone make him historically bad.

He's just awful at diplomacy, but I mentioned that. He's terrible at personnel. He's random.

What damage has he caused (besides undermining democracy, although admittedly that's a big one)?

How is undermining democracy not enough? Although I did point out others. Lets also not forget that gutting those departments will take a LONG time to undo and restore. How about undermining science with his ignorance and promotion of similar thinking throughout the government making it acceptable for others to embrace similar ignorance. What has he been doing to education? How long do you think it will take to recover from that? Are we to lose one generation or two or more to his willful ignorance?

[LordMortis]

I think most libertarians have come to terms that neither party is willing to cut spending. Things like Social Security, Medicaid/Medicare, and the national debt are just cans to kick down the road.

As someone who use to half identify as a libertarian, the people I see who proudly self identify claim that neither party is willing to do anything but their colors have show bright in their active or tacit support for this administration's actions. What I see is one of or both of two things: Burn it all to the ground or Smug willful ignorance rooted in sophistry thinking that they are claiming some sort of cultural superiority.

[Holman]

The damage to norms and standards of presidential behavior is tremendous.

Trump has run roughshod over traditions that have been in place for generations. His flagrant lying, his racism, his stupid self-serving complaints, cover-ups on a massive scale, exploiting the office for his family, appointing unqualified judges, dismantling oversight of his cronies, attacking the free press while cultivating what amounts to a personal propaganda network, encouraging hatred of fellow Americans, flirting with use of judicial authority to punish critics and opponents, etc etc--none of this should be tolerated, but here we are.

If you had described Trump's behavior in anonymous and nonpartisan terms just five years ago, Americans would have said it couldn't happen here. They would have called it Banana Republic stuff. Now it's routine, and we have no clear way to walk it back. It will always be an option because the lines have been crossed with impunity.

[Zaxxon]

If you had described Trump's behavior in anonymous and nonpartisan terms just five years ago, Americans would have said it couldn't happen here. They would have called it Banana Republic stuff. Now it's routine, and we have no clear way to walk it back.

This. Even though a solid argument could be made that his 'in-office' actions make him the worst President ever, forget all the 'actual' damage he's doing via policies, appointments, etc. The office itself has been irreparably (in the near-term, at least) harmed. Clear, objective sexism and sexual assault? No longer an impediment to the highest office in the land. Clear, objective racism? No longer an impediment to the highest office in the land. Clear, objective inability to hold a coherent conversation? No longer an impediment to the highest office in the land.

[Chaz]

If you had described Trump's behavior in anonymous and nonpartisan terms just five years ago, Americans would have said it couldn't happen here. They would have called it Banana Republic stuff. Now it's routine, and we have no clear way to walk it back.

This. Even though a solid argument could be made that his 'in-office' actions make him the worst President ever, forget all the 'actual' damage he's doing via policies, appointments, etc. The office itself has been irreparably (in the near-term, at least) harmed. Clear, objective sexism and sexual assault? No longer an impediment to the highest office in the land. Clear, objective racism? No longer an impediment to the highest office in the land. Clear, objective inability to hold a coherent conversation? No longer an impediment to the highest office in the land.

You forgot the "...if you're a Republican" addendum. I think if a Democrat did those things, the right wing media machine would never shut up about them.

[pr0ner]

Yeah, I can tell you that there are some pretty significant differences between the Canadian and US system I guess.

GS-13/14/15 positions are scarce and the number of them that exist is controlled. They are also open-compete positions. So it isn’t a situation where the govt can say, I want to hire you, and you’d be a GS-14, so here’s a job.

The GS-14 position has to be authorized to exist in the first place. Then when it comes available it has to be an open compete. The interview process is based on a point system, and if you aren’t a current govt employee, you have no chance.

I didn’t point out that you may not know how the US federal govt works to be smarmy. I pointed it out because you clearly don’t seem to understand that leaving the employ of the federal govt is almost always a one way path. It’s quite hard to return unless you are a very low-level employee.


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I'll echo what RM9 says. Outside of a couple of agency specific quirks (where I work there are only limits on GS-15, which is open compete, and as RM9 said, you have to be a current gov employee to have a chance), this is pretty much how it runs everywhere.

I'm a GS-14 at my agency. I have zero plans to leave, because why would I? If I left, and tried to come back, they sure as hell wouldn't rehire me as a GS-14, and I wouldn't want to go through the whole process again to become a GS-14.

[Octavious]

I love the bs he's spouting about rebuilding the military. We spend so much money on the military that it's just downright insane and yet everyone buys the garbage that we need to spend more and rebuild? This is of course not just a Trump thing. I just never get how you can claim to be conservative and careful with money EXCEPT for the military. That we need to dump as much money as possible. Has nothing to do with people raking in tons of money from contracts. No.....

[Smoove_B]

I'll echo what RM9 says.

I can't speak to a federal level, but I can say that its similar in local, county and state levels (in my experience). While there are civil-service and non-civil service jobs, when mid to high level positions are eliminated they're cut from the larger budgets and it takes an extraordinary act to have them come back. Even if they do return, they're structured in a way as to minimize costs and you end up attracting a lower-level replacement.

We've had "normal" cycles of growth and reduction in NJ since I was first in the field ~20 years ago. I entered right after a period of cuts and enjoyed gainful employment for close to a decade. Then right around 2007/08 the cuts started happening as the greater economy imploded. A decade later, the public health infrastructure in NJ still hasn't recovered - and that was just related to the economy and what's happening locally in our state. The idea that someone at the helm would be intentionally making these cuts and targeting higher-levels of government workers (the most difficult to replace), because stigginit is absolutely ridiculous.

[Isgrimnur]

The Root

We all waited with bated breath for President Donald Trump’s physical results —asking how in the world could this rotund, Kentucky-Fried-and-McDonald’s-eating 71-year-old be in decent health?

How indeed?

On Friday, the White House released a statement allegedly written by the doctor who administered the exam. It said that the president was “in excellent health.”

Except for one niggling thing. The doctor’s name was spelled wrong.

White House physician Ronny Jackson spells his name with a “y.”

As Rachel Maddow reported on her show Friday night, the statement released by the White House was signed by a “Dr. Ronnie Jackson,” who spells his name with an “ie.”
...
Shareblue reports that it was also odd that this doctor who can’t spell his name went against protocol in that he put “Dr.” in front of his name, when most medical doctors use their name followed by their degree (for example, “Ronny Jackson, MD, FAAEM“), rather than using their title (“Dr.”)

In the past, President Obama’s test results—by the very same doctor—have been a bit more detailed.

[LawBeefaroni]

Shareblue reports that it was also odd that this doctor who can’t spell his name went against protocol in that he put “Dr.” in front of his name, when most medical doctors use their name followed by their degree (for example, “Ronny Jackson, MD, FAAEM“), rather than using their title (“Dr.”)

Yes, this is very odd. I've probably seen tens of thousands of MD (and DO, DMD, etc) signatures and I can't remember one that signed as "Dr. [Name]" on a chart or business document. They do it sometimes on personal stuff, but never with their first name.

What a bunch of clowns this administration is.

[El Guapo]

So did Trump actually have an exam, or did some staffer just write up a quick statement saying that he's healthy?

[YellowKing]

The only silver lining is if they're afraid to reveal the real results, maybe the fat fuck is well on his way to a heart attack or stroke.

[wonderpug]

So did Trump actually have an exam, or did some staffer just write up a quick statement saying that he's healthy?

Trump is smarter than any doctor in human history, so he probably just looked in a mirror and confirmed that he is indeed as awesome as is humanely possible. More awesome. He just invented that phrase: "more awesome", just came up with it just like that. He's full of good phrases. Awesome phrases. He's much more awesome than Obama. Crooked Hillary Sloppy Steve. Emails.

[Remus West]

Yeah, I'm not sure. It's a major clean up job, and the sooner it gets started, the better (well, it's already been started. It started in the 70's). With that said, cleaning up is a long term project, and for the damage to reach apocalyptic scale will also take decades. Do I want to pause and pick up where you left off after 4 years? No. Will irreversible damage be done, like the extinction of animal species (probably) or coastline destroyed (maybe) as a result of this pause?

We can agree he is completely wrongheaded on this and a total chump, making things worse. What is the impact of his 1 year presidency so far? Is it even measurable with regard to something as huge as Climate Change? Are the changes to climate for 2017 directly attributable to Drumpf and his policies/appointments? I assumed no. I could easily be wrong.

Even looking at your own words here you realize that he is intentionally moving us backward yet you do not realize what a horrible president he is? Seriously, can you name a single thing he has moved us forward on during his first year? A good thing, not a bad one like getting closer to nuclear war.

[El Guapo]

I just skimmed the last page or so, but are people really arguing about whether Trump is just an awful president or whether he is the awfulest?

[Moliere]

I think he's awfuler than most.

[Carpet_pissr]

I just skimmed the last page or so, but are people really arguing about whether Trump is just an awful president or whether he is the awfulest?

From what I can figure out, one or more of a few things has happened:
1. GG is trolling us
2. Someone has hacked GG's account (I suspect pro-Putin Ukrainians)
3. GG is being more argumentative today than normal (no hyperbole needed there, I think )
4. His burning hatred of Trump has flipped him out, and now he is demanding us to state in clear and precise terms, exactly why the Dump is so bad. Other than killing US democracy, shitting on the very concept of being "presidential", our standing in the world, and a bunch of other exceptions. It's like a really specific devil's advocate. He may just be trying to make a list as well, for some nefarious (or good, depending on whether you are pro-Empire, or pro-Alliance).

[naednek]

So let me get this straight. It's 2017, and we're analyzing whether "shithouse" is a better Presidential description of a predominantly black country than a "shithole."

Damn I miss the 90s.

Wrong,

It's 2018

[Carpet_pissr]

Is 'shithouse' common parlance and I just don't know about it? Given the context, 'shithole" makes a hell of a lot more sense, no?

I take that back, remembering the speaker. He can't even curse coherently.

[LawBeefaroni]

Is 'shithouse' common parlance and I just don't know about it? Given the context, 'shithole" makes a hell of a lot more sense, no?

I take that back, remembering the speaker. He can't even curse coherently.

It's an absurd contrivance that he said shithouse. It's a term never used in that context and almost always used preceded by the word "brick."


Cory Booker from NJ ripped the DHS sec for lying not remembering about the meeting. Leaders are far and few between in Washington.

[GreenGoo]

Well I stand corrected.

As for the US federal government hiring practices, it makes no sense whatsoever. What is the rationale for agreeing to pay someone to do a job, they leave (for whatever reason), come back, and refusing to pay them the same salary for doing the same job? You know what? Don't answer that. I don't want to know.

[YellowKing]

Wrong,

It's 2018

That's how bad Trump is. He even distorts time because every day is a waking eternal nightmare.

[Carpet_pissr]

Wrong,

It's 2018

That's how bad Trump is. He even distorts time because every day is a waking eternal nightmare.

"They say we're young and we don't know
We won't find out until we grow..."

[RunningMn9]

I'll echo what RM9 says. Outside of a couple of agency specific quirks (where I work there are only limits on GS-15, which is open compete, and as RM9 said, you have to be a current gov employee to have a chance), this is pretty much how it runs everywhere.

I'm a GS-14 at my agency. I have zero plans to leave, because why would I? If I left, and tried to come back, they sure as hell wouldn't rehire me as a GS-14, and I wouldn't want to go through the whole process again to become a GS-14.

We have a guy here who is a GS-13 (don’t know his step), who is leaving for private industry. He can come back someday, but not as a GS-13. And probably not even as a GS-12. The most likely scenario is to come back as a GS-11. Why would he do that? I could see it if he was desperate to come back, but that seems unlikely (skilled mechanical engineers aren’t exactly struggling to find work).

In any case, I just wanted to highlight the inherent problems with the brain drain at places like the State Dept, and to a lesser extent the DoD. It’s not something that the average person will feel today as “damage”. But the damage will be felt for decades.

[RunningMn9]

Is 'shithouse' common parlance and I just don't know about it?

‘shithouse’ is part of the parlance of our times, but not really appropriate in this context. That’s more like “built like a brick shithouse”, which is presumably a really good shithouse (it’s usually complimentary when I’ve heard it).

Like, a really well put together shithouse.

[hepcat]

That the best they could come up as an alternative fact is "shithouse" is nothing short of amazing. Amazingly idiot, that is. I mean, couldn't they have lied using something else that sounded like shithole but without a negative connotation?

[Holman]

Is 'shithouse' common parlance and I just don't know about it? Given the context, 'shithole" makes a hell of a lot more sense, no?

I take that back, remembering the speaker. He can't even curse coherently.

It's an absurd contrivance that he said shithouse. It's a term never used in that context and almost always used preceded by the word "brick."

Plus it wouldn't change the racist sentiment one bit: "everyone from these shit____ places is worthless."

The "shithouse" counter-claim is just the flimsiest of excuses for Trump to cry Fake News.

[Zaxxon]

Is 'shithouse' common parlance and I just don't know about it? Given the context, 'shithole" makes a hell of a lot more sense, no?

I take that back, remembering the speaker. He can't even curse coherently.

It's an absurd contrivance that he said shithouse. It's a term never used in that context and almost always used preceded by the word "brick."

Plus it wouldn't change the racist sentiment one bit: "everyone from these shit____ places is worthless."

Shitresorts?

[LawBeefaroni]

Is 'shithouse' common parlance and I just don't know about it? Given the context, 'shithole" makes a hell of a lot more sense, no?

I take that back, remembering the speaker. He can't even curse coherently.

It's an absurd contrivance that he said shithouse. It's a term never used in that context and almost always used preceded by the word "brick."

Plus it wouldn't change the racist sentiment one bit: "everyone from these shit____ places is worthless."

The "shithouse" counter-claim is just the flimsiest of excuses for Trump to cry Fake News.

I have it on good authority that this was Plan A but was rejected at the last minute for unknown reasons:

Shitawesome. As I recall, he called the African nations "shitawesome."

[ImLawBoy]

Per Colbert, the official justification for "shithouse" was that it referred to the state of their plumbing, because many of those countries still have outhouses instead of indoor plumbing.

You know, because we always make reference to countries on the basis of their plumbing, and preferably in a vulgar manner.

[LawBeefaroni]

Per Colbert, the official justification for "shithouse" was that it referred to the state of their plumbing, because many of those countries still have outhouses instead of indoor plumbing.

You know, because we always make reference to countries on the basis of their plumbing, and preferably in a vulgar manner.

That is just so laughably bad. Just man up and own shithole. What a fucking embarrassment these clowns are.


I guess they can declare Yosemite a shithouse national park now though.

[wonderpug]

"Why would we allow more immigrants from Haiti and countries with outdoor toilet plumbing in Africa rather than countries like Norway?"

Totally makes sense.

[Smoove_B]

It's not a shithouse, it's a shit home.

[LawBeefaroni]

Also, who ended up winning the "Most Dishonest Network" and "Like, Totally the Smartest Network. Trust me." awards? Those were yesterday, right? Wait...you mean to tell me that was all a juvenille publicity stunt from Dear Leader? Well, color me shocked!

Now scheduled for Jan 17. Because the dancing giraffes and Trump's favorite lady boys were stopped at the border.

Or, if you believe Fox, it's shrewd marketing move since excitement for the awards is "off the charts".. They're probably negotiating air time.


Trump's presidential tweet:

“The Fake News Awards, those going to the most corrupt & biased of the Mainstream Media, will be presented to the losers on Wednesday, January 17th, rather than this coming Monday,” Trump tweeted Sunday afternoon. “The interest in, and importance of, these awards is far greater than anyone could have anticipated!”

Well, despite the delay, still no awards...

[Daveman]

Maybe he's waiting for prime time, or looking into making it PPV.