gloomhaven questions (no spoilers please)

[LordMortis]

So I've read the rules over the weekend and they seem pretty straight forward a la decent plus a sort of automated overlord.

One thing I wasn't clear on. What defines different parties. There will be party achievements that go to specific parties but what defines who is in which party?

Can one character be in more than one party? What happens to a party when a character retires?

Another thing that doesn't make sense after just reading but not playing. If you can have multiple characters of the same character type and you put stickers on the cards in their decks, how do you share (or even recycle) decks?

Everything else, I think I've got a handle on... for now...

[hepcat]

The biggest point I think you missed is that this is a legacy game.

The physical components of achievements are limited to just one party, as the story/game assumes you're going to play through the campaign with the same party. If you want to run multiple parties at the same time, you'll need to use removable stickers, or just write stuff down.

Same with characters. Just as in all legacy games, you mark up stuff as you play through the story. So "resetting" so someone else can play with a character after that character has leveled up will require the purchase of removable stickers.

But parties can consist of any combination of characters/players. Think of them as containers. I've had people drop in and drop out of my campaign repeatedly, sometimes with different characters. But they always play in the one party I created when I started the campaign.

In short, create one party and be done with it. No need for a second. There's more than enough content for hundreds of hours of game play. Don't worry about running multiple campaigns. By the time you finish Gloomhaven, Gloomhaven 2 will probably be ready to ship.

[LordMortis]

The biggest point I think you missed is that this is a legacy game.

The physical components of achievements are limited to just one party, as the story/game assumes you're going to play through the campaign with the same party. If you want to run multiple parties at the same time, you'll need to use removable stickers, or just write stuff down.

Same with characters. Just as in all legacy games, you mark up stuff as you play through the story. So "resetting" so someone else can play with a character someone else has used will require the purchase of removable stickers or something.

But parties can consist of any combination of characters/players. Think of them as containers. I've had people drop in and drop out of my campaign repeatedly, sometimes with different characters. But they always play in the one party I created when I started the campaign.

In short, create one party and be done with it. No need for a second.

That's not the way it's described in the rules but that's cool. I assume that means you never re-use characters either. The rules are really wacky there. If I find time, I'll try to find a PDF and post my confusion, where it talks about using different characters and different parties all pulling from the same personal objectives pile but only opening new envelps the first time a character is retired.

I have purchased removable stickers but that doesn't make sense in the context of having multiple characters from the same class.

[hepcat]

I don't remember anything in the rules that contradicted what I just wrote about parties.

Once a scenario is unlocked/completed by a party, it can only be played in "casual mode" by any other party, not "campaign mode". So the intent is that one party is meant to play through the campaign. The rules say you can play with multiple parties in the same campaign, but I don't see why you would want to unless you want to play a different character, or you have more than 6 people that want to play over the course of the campaign.

This is a legacy game. If you haven't played one of those before, then I can understand the confusion. But if you have played one before, shift your mindset for Gloomhaven to that instead of what you're currently assuming about the game.

And I don't know what you mean by

I have purchased removable stickers but that doesn't make sense in the context of having multiple characters from the same class.

The removable stickers are for those who want to play Gloomhaven again after they finish it. It's a "reset" tool. If you want to run multiple campaigns concurrently, don't use the stickers, just write stuff down or use one of the community created tools on BGG that were made for that.

But again, my advice is to just create one party and then play. Let folks choose a character that they'll play the game with. If someone else wants to replace another player in a game one night, just hand them one of the two characters that no one has chosen (the game comes with 6 and is 1-4 players, so there's two extra if you run full games). After a while, you'll unlock other characters and folks will retire the one they're playing and take on that new character.

[LordMortis]

I don't remember anything in the rules that contradicted what I just wrote about parties.

Once a scenario is unlocked/completed by a party, it can only be played in "casual mode" by any other party, not "campaign mode". So the intent is that one party is meant to play through the campaign. The rules say you can play with multiple parties in the same campaign, but I don't see why you would want to unless you want to play a different character, or you have more than 6 people that want to play over the course of the campaign.

This is a legacy game. If you haven't played one of those before, then I can understand the confusion. But if you have played one before, shift your mindset for Gloomhaven to that instead of what you're currently assuming about the game.

And I don't know what you mean by

I have purchased removable stickers but that doesn't make sense in the context of having multiple characters from the same class.

The removable stickers are for those who want to play Gloomhaven again after they finish it. It's a "reset" tool. If you want to run multiple campaigns concurrently, don't use the stickers, just write stuff down or use one of the community created tools on BGG that were made for that.

But again, my advice is to just create one party and then play. Let folks choose a character that they'll play the game with. If someone else wants to replace another player in a game one night, just hand them one of the two characters that no one has chosen (the game comes with 6 and is 1-4 players, so there's two extra if you run full games). After a while, you'll unlock other characters and folks will retire the one they're playing and take on that new character.

I get your advice and this is likely the way will play but the game seems pretty clear that you can run multiple parties and re-use characters in the same legacy experience and I'm trying to reconcile how that works with upgrading playable characters decks with stickers. It will probably become more clear to me when I get to that phase of the game.

[Zarathud]

I think Mortis is referring to different character sheets for the characters. It suggests you can have multiple characters and parties. But if you add stickers to the cards, that works against the idea of reusability.

And he's right -- until after a few rounds he'll realize there is so much game that there isn't much point to expecting to replay from the start and the stickers are VERY expensive for characters to buy. I have bought one card sticker, and saving up for a second.

[LordMortis]

Here we go. The composite of these sections related to parties and characters and stickers is what has caused my confusion. Note this all under campaign (Legacy) play.

A party is formed when a new group of players gets together to play the game. They will document the
formation of the party by starting a new entry in the party sheet notepad. Party achievements, reputation, and
location will be tracked on this notepad.
A party can persist from scenario to scenario and play session to play session, as long as the players want. The
makeup of the party will change over time, especially as characters retire and new characters are created.
Changes to the party makeup are fine, not only for characters, but players as well. New parties can also be
formed at any time, though new characters should be made for a new party

The achievement system is the main way that players will keep track of major changes in the world and
what scenarios a particular party has access to while playing in campaign mode. There are two types of
achievements: global achievements and party achievements.

Party achievements are tied to a specific party and are mainly used
to keep track of what scenarios are available to play in campaign
mode for that party.

Reputation is tied to a specific party and is tracked on the party sheet. Any time a new party is formed, that
party starts at 0 reputation. Through event consequences or by completing certain scenarios, the party will
gain or lose reputation. A party can have a maximum reputation of 20 and a minimum reputation of -20.
A party’s reputation has a number of implications:
• Many events have consequences that are only applied if the party meets specific reputation
requirements.
• When buying items, players modify the cost based on their reputation. They receive a reduction in
cost at a higher reputation and an increase in cost at a lower reputation. These cost modifications are
written next to the reputation track on the party sheet.
• Certain sealed envelopes are opened when a party reaches specific positive and negative values of
reputation.

Once players have completed “The Power of Enhancement” global achievement, they can spend gold while
visiting Gloomhaven to increase the power of their ability cards. To do this, a player places the desired sticker
from the enhancement sticker sheets onto a designated spot of an ability card in their character’s active
card pool. This sticker denotes a permanent enhancement to the ability.

When a specific character class retires for the first time, new city and road events are usually added to the
events decks. The reference number for these is written on the back side of the class’s character mat in the
bottom right (rightmost number). In addition, whenever a new character class is unlocked through retirement
or other means, new city and road events are also added to the decks. This reference number is on the back
side of the unlocked class’s character mat in the bottom right (leftmost number). Each reference number
applies to both the city and road event decks.
When a player’s character retires, they can choose a new character to play, drawing two new personal quest
cards, keeping one and discarding the other. Players are free to use the same class for their new character, but
fulfilling personal quests usually unlocks a new class, encouraging players to explore new play styles over the
course of the campaign. New characters may start at any level equal to or less than the current prosperity level
of the town.
It is possible to run out of available personal quest cards. If there are no personal quest cards left when a player
creates a new character, then that character does not receive a personal quest. A character without a personal
quest can never retire, though the player is still free to switch characters whenever he or she wishes.

[wonderpug]

Just double checking -- are you having multiple groups of people playing the game? If not, then you're overthinking this party stuff.

Even if you are playing with multiple groups, personally I'd recommend you find a way to have everyone play on the same campaign. I liked the game a lot but my biggest issue is how slowly the campaign progresses.

[hepcat]

This is what you should be paying attention to.

In campaign mode, players will form an official party of characters and undertake a number of consecutive
scenarios over multiple play sessions. This allows players to follow a story thread as they make decisions and
explore a path of their own choosing. A scenario can only be played in campaign mode if all the prerequisite
global and party achievements listed as required in the Scenario Book are active for the party. In addition, once
a scenario has been completed in campaign mode, it cannot be undertaken again in campaign mode by any
party.

The stuff you quoted does not contradict what I wrote earlier, but without the section I just quoted, I can see where your confusion comes from.

In casual mode, players can play any revealed scenario on the world map regardless of achievements
or whether it has been completed in campaign mode. Players can still gain experience and money,
loot treasure tiles, complete battle goals, and make progress toward completing their personal
quests, but any story text or rewards listed at the end of the scenario are disregarded. A party in
campaign mode can switch to casual mode to go through a scenario they have already completed, but it is strongly recommended that a
party not undertake a scenario in casual mode that they haven’t yet experienced in campaign mode.

Casual mode is not the legacy experience. It's a way to play outside the campaign without the story based benefits of campaign mode. However, you can use it to level up characters, since you do get XP. And you can go back and attempt to grab a treasure you might have missed the first time around. But at the end of the day, the game is very clearly a legacy game meant to be played as a campaign game by a single party. So one party for the entire game is the best way to play it.

you're overthinking this party stuff.

This. It's not really tough. Just create a party, grab some characters and start playing. Don't worry about anything else.

Even if you are playing with multiple groups, personally I'd recommend you find a way to have everyone play on the same campaign. I liked the game a lot but my biggest issue is how slowly the campaign progresses.

That's the carrot on the stick that keeps us coming back, man.

[coopasonic]

One thing I wasn't clear on. What defines different parties. There will be party achievements that go to specific parties but what defines who is in which party?

You do.

Can one character be in more than one party?

No

What happens to a party when a character retires?

The player of that character picks a new character (or the same one if really stubborn).

Another thing that doesn't make sense after just reading but not playing. If you can have multiple characters of the same character type and you put stickers on the cards in their decks, how do you share (or even recycle) decks?

No.

[hepcat]

Another thing that doesn't make sense after just reading but not playing. If you can have multiple characters of the same character type and you put stickers on the cards in their decks, how do you share (or even recycle) decks?

No. You don't.

[LordMortis]

Just double checking -- are you having multiple groups of people playing the game? If not, then you're overthinking this party stuff.

Even if you are playing with multiple groups, personally I'd recommend you find a way to have everyone play on the same campaign. I liked the game a lot but my biggest issue is how slowly the campaign progresses.

We will likely have two regulars and three opt ins, maybe but probably not more.

[coopasonic]

My board game table is finally arriving today. I am just getting over the flu and am not sure when I will feel up to assembling it, but I will actually have a chance to check this out myself soon.

[hepcat]

Give the two regulars their characters, then put the other 3 characters that no one chose back in the box. When the drop ins show up, pull those characters out and let them choose what they want to play from that selection.

If your campaign starts to skew towards one group of players more than another, the other players won't be left behind because when they join a game later, they level up to what the City's reputation dictates.

[Zarathud]

That's what we have. Hepcat + 2 regulars + 2 irregulars (including me). The slowness in advancing means I'm never too far behind with my Spellweaver.

[Smoove_B]

While I haven't played (though I do own a copy), I think the confusion is over the type of game this is and the purpose of the reusable stickers. Maybe I'm completely wrong (and you can correct me), but the stickers exist so that when you finish the entire campaign (i.e. play through everything), the reusable stickers allow you to "reset" the entire game to the starting state.

The stickers are not usable to track multiple concurrent campaigns or to allow you to switch reset characters in and out of other campaigns. To do that, you'd need multiple world maps and stock character decks....essentially an entirely new core set.

[LordMortis]

This is what you should be paying attention to.

In campaign mode, players will form an official party of characters and undertake a number of consecutive
scenarios over multiple play sessions. This allows players to follow a story thread as they make decisions and
explore a path of their own choosing. A scenario can only be played in campaign mode if all the prerequisite
global and party achievements listed as required in the Scenario Book are active for the party. In addition, once
a scenario has been completed in campaign mode, it cannot be undertaken again in campaign mode by any
party.

The stuff you quoted does not contradict what I wrote earlier, but without the section I just quoted, I can see where your confusion comes from.

In casual mode, players can play any revealed scenario on the world map regardless of achievements
or whether it has been completed in campaign mode. Players can still gain experience and money,
loot treasure tiles, complete battle goals, and make progress toward completing their personal
quests, but any story text or rewards listed at the end of the scenario are disregarded. A party in
campaign mode can switch to casual mode to go through a scenario they have already completed, but it is strongly recommended that a
party not undertake a scenario in casual mode that they haven’t yet experienced in campaign mode.

Casual mode is not the legacy experience. It's a way to play outside the campaign without most of the benefits of campaign mode. However, you can use it to level up characters, since you do get XP. But at the end of the day, the game is very clearly a legacy game meant to be played as a campaign game by a single party. So one party for the entire game is the best way to play it.

We are talking around each other. I read what you are reading and I see that there can by multiple parties in the campaign who cannot repeat the same scenarios, which leads me to "why would you want multiple parties in the same campaign if you can freely swap characters in and out?" There appears to be a reason for parties and I'm trying to understand it.

While I haven't played (though I do own a copy), I think the confusion is over the type of game this is and the purpose of the reusable stickers. Maybe I'm completely wrong (and you can correct me), but the stickers exist so that when you finish the entire campaign (i.e. play through everything), the reusable stickers allow you to "reset" the entire game to the starting state.

The stickers are not usable to track multiple concurrent campaigns or to allow you to switch reset characters in and out of other campaigns. To do that, you'd need multiple world maps and stock character decks....essentially an entirely new core set.

No, the confusion for me is re-using characters in a campaign with non reusable stickers.

[hepcat]

I read what you are reading and I see that there can by multiple parties in the campaign who cannot repeat the same scenarios, which leads me to "why would you want multiple parties in the same campaign if you can freely swap characters in and out?"

You don't. I made that point very early on.

Additional parties are for those who want to play in casual mode with different characters from time to time and not in campaign mode.

As mentioned earlier, don't overthink it. Create a party, grab some characters, play.

While I haven't played (though I do own a copy), I think the confusion is over the type of game this is and the purpose of the reusable stickers. Maybe I'm completely wrong (and you can correct me), but the stickers exist so that when you finish the entire campaign (i.e. play through everything), the reusable stickers allow you to "reset" the entire game to the starting state.

Yup.

[LordMortis]

I read what you are reading and I see that there can by multiple parties in the campaign who cannot repeat the same scenarios, which leads me to "why would you want multiple parties in the same campaign if you can freely swap characters in and out?"

You don't. I made that point very early on.

I got that and we likely won't. I'm trying to wrap my head around why it's there. What circumstance would drive people to break up the game into different party achievements.

[hepcat]

Additional parties are for those who want to play in casual mode with different characters from time to time and not in campaign mode.

[LordMortis]

Additional parties are for those who want to play in casual mode with different characters from time to time and not in campaign mode.

You're killing me here.

Party achievements are tied to a specific party and are mainly used
to keep track of what scenarios are available to play in campaign
mode for that party.

[hepcat]

You could technically play multiple parties within one campaign. But achievements are ONLY gained by one of them, so it's kind of dumb. You'd constantly be tracking who has what. The game includes that ability in the same way that games are so often forcing solo mode into their mechanics. It's there for those who really want it. Most people won't do it though.

Don't overthink it, man.

[LordMortis]

You could technically play multiple parties within one campaign. But achievements are ONLY gained by one of them, so it's kind of dumb.

Now we're on the same page for the moment. I was trying to understand the kina dumb part.

[hepcat]

That's what we have. Hepcat + 2 regulars + 2 irregulars (including me). The slowness in advancing means I'm never too far behind with my Spellweaver.

When will you be free to unleash your glass cannon on our campaign again?

[Zarathud]

Work trip this week and next Friday.

[hepcat]

Wait...are you asking me to come with you so we can play?

[LordMortis]

Redrun and I tested the two player game last night.

Learning how precious your action cards are in a scenario... Wow. So, yeah, that was a dry run... We'll go again Friday but I think I'm really really going to like this. Just from the first scenario and the city and road, I think this is going to be everything I wanted Descent to be.

I'm a bit disappointed in the pop out cardboard stock pieces. The pictures are just falling off the cardboard right out of the box and we're going to have buy some glue.

I bought the removable stickers. I think that's going to be a waste. I assumed they were going to be like the colorforms fun stickers, but nope, I don't see how they are going to be removed. So that was a waste of $10.

The challenge level looks like it's going to be high. I was going offer for us each to play 2 characters in the open format to give us a more full experience, but the book says we're supposed to up the difficulty level to do that and I don't see how that's going to happen. + difficulty level + the additional and elitified monsters from going from 2 to 4 would just be too much.

I need to get another tacklebox as the bits are a bit overwhelming, tracking them is chaos without some form of organization, and there is no way to contain them in the box given.

Looking forward to getting back to it on Friday.

[TheMix]

I went with Y.A.S.S.. It was ~$30 for the Plano boxes (though you do end up with an extra one). And I found that a few of the effects didn't have their spots labeled, so I lumped them in with others. But I do like the printed out sheets for the Plano boxes to show what's where.

Edit: Oh, and everything does fit in the box. It does cause the lid to sit a bit higher, but it's pretty close.

[MonkeyFinger]

Right, even with all of the wooden containers that come with the Broken Token organizer, it all fits back in the box. With the lid not quite all the way down, as noted.

[hepcat]

Sorry to hear about the monster counters losing their stickers. Oddly enough, I've never encountered that issue with my first edition. I have to wonder if they switched production outlets.

As for standee storage, I took the foam inserts from the box, placed a monster standee onto a section of it, then used a small knife to carve around it. Then I hollowed it out with my fingers (the foam pulls out easily) until it was deep enough to house the stack for that particular standee. Rinse and repeat for the rest of the monster standees. Found that DIY solution on BGG and it's a nice, cheap solution.

[TheMix]

I was using that method. I switched over because I liked the way the Y.A.S.S. option handled all the counters. And I was going to re-purpose the foam for storing Shadows of Brimstone minis. Then I ended up just buying furniture foam for the S.o.B. minis. THAT took a while to do, but at least it's all done.

[hentzau]

I seem to recall some folks complaining about some of the tokens separating. I would contact the manufacturer and see if they can fix it for you. He seems like a fairly responsive sort of guy.

[LordMortis]

I seem to recall some folks complaining about some of the tokens separating. I would contact the manufacturer and see if they can fix it for you. He seems like a fairly responsive sort of guy.

It's just going to take some glue. It's annoying and worth mentioning but it's not a deal breaker. If it were I would already be contacting them.

[hentzau]

Oh, and the level of hand management you have to do real is an eye opener in that first adventure. We were spending discard cards like crazy before we realized that there was no easy way to get them back in your hand. We ended up doing that a second time as well, calling our first try a "learning" game.

[LordMortis]

Oh, and the level of hand management you have to do real is an eye opener in that first adventure.

Yes, yes it is. About half way through the second room I realized I was doomed. Redun wanted me to hold off before jumping in to the 3rd room, and I'm like I can't. So I kick open the door and that was the end of my play. No more cards to draw. I had amassed 15 experience in the first two rooms but I had no more bullets.

[hepcat]

15 experience? That seems like a lot without the final XP bonus upon completion of the mission. Remember that XP from cards is only gained if you can pull off the maneuver it's listed next to, not just for playing the card itself. Here's a good discussion of that.

And yeah, the first few games it will seem like the game is nigh impossible. But something will click on the 2nd or 3rd game and you'll grok everything you need to do. Now I can usually finish up a mission with at least 3 or 4 cards left unless it's a really tough boss battle.

[LordMortis]

15 experience? That seems like a lot without the final XP bonus upon completion of the mission. Remember that XP from cards is only gained if you can pull off the maneuver it's listed next to, not just for playing the card itself. Here's a good discussion of that.

And yeah, the first few games it will seem like the game is nigh impossible. But something will click on the 2nd or 3rd game and you'll grok everything you need to do. Now I can usually finish up a mission with at least 3 or 4 cards left unless it's a really tough boss battle.

Yep. I was an XP generating machine, which is a large part of why I ran out of cards (the easy) 2/3rds of the way through the introductory scenario.

Take two will be this Friday. We'll reset the entire thing with a bit better understanding.

[YellowKing]

Mother of God this game is gigantic.

A gaming group buddy of mine had the day off (as did I), so he brought over Gloomhaven so I could help him build the insert he bought, do a quick inventory, and punch stuff out.

It wound up taking us 6 hours.

[MonkeyFinger]

How much physical space does one need when actually playing this? I could probably Google something up but figured I'd just ask here.

[LordMortis]

How much physical space does one need when actually playing this? I could probably Google something up but figured I'd just ask here.

We're with two players on a 3x5 table with some box contents on the floor. We're not fully organized yet so space is not optimized and I have a laptop out as supplement. At the same time not being optimized is also slowing us down. The dungeon sizes so far (two whole scenarios in) are pretty small compared to Descent where as the player area to track what is happening is slightly larger. Note we do not leave the campaign board out while we are in scenarios.