Shootings

[El Guapo]

The bullet restriction I found especially interesting - if you are allowed to buy a gun for self-defense (which is not an automatic process), you're limited to 50 bullets, period. As I read in an article, the rationale being, "if you need more than 50 bullets to defend yourself, the gun's not going to help you."

Would work here if there was a way to replenish. Or if you had unlimited rounds while at the range. Because practice is important and if you've never fired a gun before, 50 rounds is as good as 0 in a self defense situation.

The black market for cartridges would be a problem that would have to be dealt with. Wonder what it's like in Isreal.

In the article I read (which led me to google Israeli regulations on this, which is what lead me to the link) indicated that you could still buy ammo at gun ranges for use at that range.

Incidentally, that's part of why I don't find arguments about gun use for recreation to be all that compelling. Seems like you can preserve that while still heavily restricting gun purchases by simply allowing people to rent guns and buy ammo at gun ranges and through hunting facilities.

[Blackhawk]

Because .223 bullets are relatively unstable in flight. Upon hitting a surface, they tumble or shatter.

Anyway, the drawback to a longarm in home defense is, and always will be, maneuverability. It's the reason that bullpup weapons were invented. The best thing for an experienced shooter is a semi-auto pistol with frangible rounds, and for an inexperienced shooter, a shotgun.

Anyway, that doesn't make the alternatives bad choices, just not as good.

[LawBeefaroni]

People (including in this thread) don't even know what 'assault rifle' means.

I keep assuming we're all talking about anything that qualifies as a rifle (2 hands, long barrel, shoulder pad/scope compatible) and is semi-automatic. The classic vision, though, is something you'd see in combat or used by a SWAT team. Tactical black, banana magazine, lots of bits and nobs and it looks dangerous. I assume some can be converted to full auto with the right parts.

Merriam Webster:
Any of various intermediate-range, magazine-fed military rifles (such as the AK-47) that can be set for automatic or semiautomatic fire; also : a rifle that resembles a military assault rifle but is designed to allow only semiautomatic fire

Exactly my point. You just described three different types of weapons in five sentences. One is almost any modern rifle, including my grandfather's 80-year-old .22 'varmint' gun. The second is something that looks scary. The third specifies military rifles (and repeats the 'looks scary' definition.) Oh, and in case people didn't get the snark, banning the weapons that look scary instead of the ones that are effective is about as ridiculous as it gets.

It's a mess that leads to some ridiculous scenarios.


Per law, the barrel length for a rifle is 16". Below that it's a pistol, unless you attach a stock, in which case it's a short barrelled rifle (SBR), which requires a special tax-stamp to be legal. For a while, you could use an "arm brace" and it would be a pistol until you shouldered it, at which point it vacate an SBR (and couldn't unbecome an SBR). The ATF clarified the law and now you can shoulder the pistol and it doesn't turn into an SBR.

The three firearms below are all factory build from the same manufacturer. Under the law, one is a pistol, one is a rifle, and one is an SBR that requires special registration. Each is behioden to different transfer laws, etc. These are not AR-15s or variants. Now imagine what happens with modular AR-15 builds.

[Sepiche]

Just throwing this out there.
Pro-Gun Russian Bots Flood Twitter After Parkland Shooting

In the wake of Wednesday’s Parkland, Florida school shooting, which resulted in 17 deaths, troll and bot-tracking sites reported an immediate uptick in related tweets from political propaganda bots and Russia-linked Twitter accounts. Hamilton 68, a website created by Alliance for Securing Democracy, tracks Twitter activity from accounts it has identified as linked to Russian influence campaigns. As of morning, shooting-related terms dominated the site’s trending hashtags and topics, including Parkland, guncontrolnow, Florida, guncontrol, and Nikolas Cruz, the name of the alleged shooter. Popular trending topics among the bot network include shooter, NRA, shooting, Nikolas, Florida, and teacher.

[Carpet_pissr]

Added to the list of "you might be on the wrong side of things if the Russians, trying to do us all in, are with you" on
Trump
Guns

[Paingod]

Would you add free speech if they started prodding people to protest things?

I'm sure this isn't the Russians supporting firearms as much as it is Russians sowing chaos to degrade American cohesion.

[Combustible Lemur]

Semi automatic is a must in self defense. I don't know much about guns but once you've made the decision to kill someone pull the trigger till they aren't a threat. Or they might have their own gun, or take yours.

No, they aren't needed. Are you saying people were unable to adequately defend themselves before the advent of semiautomatic weapons? A revolver or shotgun is entirely adequate for home defense. A shotgun gives you power and the next round can be ready quickly with a pump. A revolver can be fired again quickly with another pull of the trigger. Nothing more is really needed for the vast majority of situations.

I don't really disagree, but shotguns are long and clunky, and revolvers, unless an antique mockup, are semiautomatic yes? One pull one bullet. No re-cocking.

But I think that's indicative of the argument, people with imperfect understanding of firearms and close quarters self defense making grand statements about national policy.

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Edit: I probably agree that magazine size and reload speed are a decent arbitrary line to draw. But get speed loaders and some practical experience on a revolver and the line stays real murky.

The video of Keanu Reeves at the gun range training for John Wick 2 is a disturbing look at what the rate an amateur can send bullets down range with some training. With a variety of guns.

[Isgrimnur]

revolvers, unless an antique mockup, are semiautomatic yes? One pull one bullet. No re-cocking.

Only if they're double action, which requires a longer, heavier trigger pull, as you're cocking the hammer back with that pull.

[Smoove_B]

If someone is coming into your home late at night they're either thinking that no one is home (and they're going to likely run when confronted) or they have specific intention of doing you harm - and they're prepared to fight. For the second group, why are they coming inside your home late at night to cause harm? I doubt it's random and if you are thinking people can show up inside your home at any given time with the intention of doing harm, I doubt you're truly safe just owning a gun. In either case, I can't help but think as a homeowner you'd be better off with a pair of night vision goggles and a stun gun. I don't think anyone here has an appreciation for how difficult (and expensive) it is to clean up an adult-sized volume of blood from carpeting and sub-flooring. A tazer and duct tape is arguably more effective.

[Isgrimnur]

[citation needed]

[Smoove_B]

From 2012, Gun Violence and the Irrational Fear of Home Invasion:

I had the Chicago police run the number on homicides. In 2011, precisely one homicide listed "burglary" as the motive. Nationwide, there are about 100 burglary-homicides every year. When you compare that to more than 18,000 gun suicides, the conclusions seem pretty obvious.

[Carpet_pissr]

If someone is coming into your home late at night they're either thinking that no one is home (and they're going to likely run when confronted) or they have specific intention of doing you harm - and they're prepared to fight. For the second group, why are they coming inside your home late at night to cause harm? I doubt it's random and if you are thinking people can show up inside your home at any given time with the intention of doing harm, I doubt you're truly safe just owning a gun. In either case, I can't help but think as a homeowner you'd be better off with a pair of night vision goggles and a stun gun. I don't think anyone here has an appreciation for how difficult (and expensive) it is to clean up an adult-sized volume of blood from carpeting and sub-flooring. A tazer and duct tape is arguably more effective.

Save your breath, we've gone through this. Even in the face of statistics and research showing direct correlation of owning a firearm to a massively increased chance of being hurt or killed by one, that doesn't pass the gut check with too many people. Security theater at the home level. Makes them feel safer, but dramatically and ironically increases their chances of being on the wrong end of one.

[Smoove_B]

[citation needed]

I'll also just assume that you're referring to the crime statistics and not the cleanup costs and general difficulty of dealing with ~1.3 gallons of blood.

[Isgrimnur]

DFW

At least five North Texas students were arrested on Thursday, either for allegedly having a gun at school or over alleged threats, a day after 17 people were killed in a school shooting in Florida.

Officials with Flower Mound Marcus High School and Plano West High School both confirm students were taken into custody without incident Thursday after school resource officers at both schools were warned a student brought a gun on campus.

In Flower Mound, police said the student was in possession of an unloaded small-caliber handgun and ammunition. The student was removed from school and remains in police custody facing felony charges for possessing a firearm in a prohibited place.

In Plano, police and school officials confirmed a gun was confiscated from a student and that the gun was not loaded and the student had no ammunition. Plano said they will follow district policies and procedures and take appropriate action to the fullest extent of the law.

And Garland police said a South Garland High School student was arrested without incident at about noon Thursday after he allegedly had a gun on campus. The gun was not loaded, and nobody was hurt, police said.

Police said Kerry Guery, 19, was found to be in possession of a handgun, marijuana and a stolen cell phone. He also had two Dallas County warrants for theft. Guery was transported to the Garland Jail.

Officials said no threats were made in these incidents, however a 16-year-old girl was arrested at Weatherford High School on Thursday for making a vague threat on social media, officials said. The school says the girl did not have a weapon.

And Arlington police arrested an eighth grader on similar charges Thursday. They say he threatened to bring a gun to class at Nichols Junior High School.

Seattle

An 18-year-old was arrested Tuesday after a journal was found detailing plans to shoot his classmates at a high school in Everett, Wash.

According to the Everett Police Department, the 18-year-old’s grandmother called 911 Tuesday morning after finding the journal and believed the threats to shoot students at ACES High School were credible.

Officers responded to the house and were shown excerpts of the journal and were told the grandson had a semiautomatic rifle stored in a guitar case. As officers reviewed the journal, they were alarmed by the statements and detailed plans to shoot students and use homemade explosives, according to a police department news release.

Excerpts from the journal show the teen had been thinking about the shooting frequently and wanted to make it "infamous," according to probable cause documents.
...
Mukilteo School District spokesman Andy Muntz said the teen was not on their radar, adding everyone is incredibly grateful for that grandmother's decision to turn the young man in.
...
The 18-year-old was booked at the Snohomish County (Wash.) Jail on probable cause for attempted murder due to planning and taking substantial steps toward executing a school shooting. The student also is facing an assault charge for allegedly kicking an officer after he slipped out of one of his handcuffs and tried to escape Tuesday.
...
His defense attorney said he has no prior criminal history whatsoever. However, police believe the teen used the same AK-47 to rob a convenience store on Feb. 12. Court documents state he wrote in his journal about how powerful he felt because of how scared the female clerk was.

[Carpet_pissr]

If someone is coming into your home late at night they're either thinking that no one is home (and they're going to likely run when confronted) or they have specific intention of doing you harm - and they're prepared to fight. For the second group, why are they coming inside your home late at night to cause harm? I doubt it's random and if you are thinking people can show up inside your home at any given time with the intention of doing harm, I doubt you're truly safe just owning a gun. In either case, I can't help but think as a homeowner you'd be better off with a pair of night vision goggles and a stun gun. I don't think anyone here has an appreciation for how difficult (and expensive) it is to clean up an adult-sized volume of blood from carpeting and sub-flooring. A tazer and duct tape is arguably more effective.

I dunno. Have you ever tried to pick up all those AFID tags that come out of a taser after you fire one? Those things go EVERYwhere!

[Rip]

For self defense they are worse. At least in a home burglary type situation... A handgun or shotgun world be much better.

This is not true in all situations. This is like the second or third time someone has said this and I'm curious why a semi-automatic carbine would universally be worse in home defense than a pistol or shotgun.

I thought a typical .38 or 9mm bullet is going to pass through fewer walls and hard surfaces than a .223 bullet would before stopping, reducing the risk of harming neighbors and other home occupants?

*Edit: Maybe not. A little research shows the 9mm actually goes through walls and a little further than the .223 bullet did. Huh. I never researched it and simply made an assumption. This isn't something that you think much about unless you're debating it, I guess.

The best home defense round to use to avoid risk to your neighbors seems to be birdshot with a shotgun. Anything else flies through wall after wall after wall.

Just like a shotgun it depends as much on the type of bullet(hollow point, wadcutter, full jacketed, etc.)

Different loads are used in the 9mm cartridge that allow more penetration or power expansion.

The most popular load in 9mm bullets among law enforcing agencies in United States is 7.5 g (115gr) +P+ 9 that loads at 400 m/s, is considered as the best load used for self defense purpose.

The effectiveness of the 7.5 g (115gr) +P+ 9 load is based on the hydrostatic shock theory that allows the 9mm cartridge energy to cause a significant wound in a living thing through 7.5 g (115gr) +P+ 9 load.

The weight of the bullets used in cheap 9 mm ammunition is mostly between the range of 115 to 147 gr.

The effectiveness of 9mm ammo directly depends on the type of load used in the bullet.

There are different types of loads with variation in energies they contain. There are loads available with energy little more than 400J and up to 700J.

Similarly, the penetration depth is also dependent on the type of load, with a capacity of penetrating from 8 inches to 40 inches.

The 9 mm hardball used by the NYPD raised issues like over-penetration, including passing through the human body in most cases, that forced NYPD to switch their firearms with alternates.

https://knowpreparesurvive.com/gear/gun ... t-the-9mm/

[Grifman]

I don't really disagree, but shotguns are long and clunky, and revolvers, unless an antique mockup, are semiautomatic yes? One pull one bullet. No re-cocking.a

Home defense shotguns are about as compact as a long arm can get. If you don't think they are a good choice, then you can just about throw out the need for any other long gun for home defense. Plus shotguns are good because you don't need to be terribly accurate. Even trained police officers have a hard time hitting live opponents under pressure, much less the untrained home owner. A shotgun is a perfect weapon in many ways.

Edit: I probably agree that magazine size and reload speed are a decent arbitrary line to draw. But get speed loaders and some practical experience on a revolver and the line stays real murky.

The video of Keanu Reeves at the gun range training for John Wick 2 is a disturbing look at what the rate an amateur can send bullets down range with some training. With a variety of guns.

Please, this is a ridiculous argument. The average criminal shooter is not going to spend hours training with speed loaders so they can shoot like Keanu Reeves in a movie.

[Combustible Lemur]

I don't really disagree, but shotguns are long and clunky, and revolvers, unless an antique mockup, are semiautomatic yes? One pull one bullet. No re-cocking.a

Home defense shotguns are about as compact as a long arm can get. If you don't think they are a good choice, then you can just about throw out the need for any other long gun for home defense. Plus shotguns are good because you don't need to be terribly accurate. Even trained police officers have a hard time hitting live opponents under pressure, much less the untrained home owner. A shotgun is a perfect weapon in many ways.

Edit: I probably agree that magazine size and reload speed are a decent arbitrary line to draw. But get speed loaders and some practical experience on a revolver and the line stays real murky.

The video of Keanu Reeves at the gun range training for John Wick 2 is a disturbing look at what the rate an amateur can send bullets down range with some training. With a variety of guns.

Please, this is a ridiculous argument. The average criminal shooter is not going to spend hours training with speed loaders so they can shoot like Keanu Reeves in a movie.

Are we talking about mass shooters or your average street thug. Average street thugs don't seem to be running around with a lot of long arms. And the kid yesterday supposedly did start tactical training before heading into the school I never suggested and other than one person I don't think anyone did that long arms are particularly good for home defense.

Regardless, the mention of the video was not to make an argument, but as a visual aid to reconcile that semi automatic and even shotguns when planned can cause a shit load of havoc, even in the hands of an amateur, without ever being "military assault weapons" with the idea that this level of firepower is needed to hunt thumper or Bambi is just fetishism. One semi maybe but the concept of stockpiling? You're begging for Vegas or Florida, or aurora.

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[Cylus Maxii]

The video of Keanu Reeves at the gun range training for John Wick 2 is a disturbing look at what the rate an amateur can send bullets down range with some training. With a variety of guns.

Yeah... that's a bit of a stretch. He engaged in a lot more than just "some" training. Keanu Reeves trained, intensively, 3 times a week with one of the top trainers and competitors in 3-gun. For the level of performance displayed, I'd have to assume that this was many dozens of hours of one-on-one focused instruction and multiples of that for practice. That's 10's of thousands of rounds fired under controlled conditions to develop the muscle memory and skills. He was no longer an amateur. Hopefully that knowledge makes it somewhat less disturbing for you.

Competency with marksmanship takes a lot practice to achieve and to maintain. Its an ongoing investment of both time and money. I think the majority of gun owners have, unfortunately, not made that investment. I have to receptively consider how much positive impact we just might have on curbing gun violence if we required levels of training and certification/recertification for different divisions of legal gun ownership. Irresponsible and casual gun owners scare me almost as much as criminals with violent intent.

[LawBeefaroni]

Competency with marksmanship takes a lot practice to achieve and to maintain. Its an ongoing investment of both time and money. I think the majority of gun owners have, unfortunately, not made that investment. I have to receptively consider how much positive impact we just might have on curbing gun violence if we required levels of training and certification/recertification for different divisions of legal gun ownership. Irresponsible and casual gun owners scare me almost as much as criminals with violent intent.

This.

[Smoove_B]

Irresponsible and casual gun owners scare me almost as much as criminals with violent intent.

This is why the idea of a widespread "conceal and carry" mentality truly frightens me. People can barely be trusted to operate a motor vehicle safely. The thought that there could be dozens of random people at any given time ready to pull out a gun to start shooting at a perceived threat? Are you f'ing kidding me?

[Cylus Maxii]

Irresponsible and casual gun owners scare me almost as much as criminals with violent intent.

This is why the idea of a widespread "conceal and carry" mentality truly frightens me. People can barely be trusted to operate a motor vehicle safely. The thought that there could be dozens of random people at any given time ready to pull out a gun to start shooting at a perceived threat? Are you f'ing kidding me?

With all due respect, I feel as though I've been quoted out of context. Perhaps I misunderstand your point. I'm not sure what you mean by a "widespread conceal and carry mentality".

Actually, I do not consider legal CCW permits to be an increased threat to me. But, I would like to see that all States consistently have restrictions and comprehensive competency requirements including live-fire tests and periodic recertification. I'll abstain from discussion of may/shall issue.

The CCW owners (and active carriers) that I personally know are all excellent examples of the level of responsible gun ownership that I wrote about in my full post. I find them unthreatening. If I found myself in a situation and one of these associates was with me, I would hope that they were carrying. I would also hope that we could escape the situation without them having to even reach for it.

[Smoove_B]

Fair points - I didn't mean to muddle your point. As I stated in another thread, NJ is one of a number of states that does not recognize CCW from other jurisdictions. It's also nearly impossible to get a CCW permit in NJ. If I recall correctly, NJ has around 9 million people and there are somewhere around 1000 total CCW permits currently active in our state. I do not have faith in my fellow average citizen and don't believe there's any reason the vast majority of people should be walking around with guns. Well, unless of course everyone has guns. Because then you're likely better off not being the only unarmed person. I guess my point is, whatever the bar is for gun ownership it should be significantly higher for a CCW permit.

[Combustible Lemur]

The video of Keanu Reeves at the gun range training for John Wick 2 is a disturbing look at what the rate an amateur can send bullets down range with some training. With a variety of guns.

Yeah... that's a bit of a stretch. He engaged in a lot more than just "some" training. Keanu Reeves trained, intensively, 3 times a week with one of the top trainers and competitors in 3-gun. For the level of performance displayed, I'd have to assume that this was many dozens of hours of one-on-one focused instruction and multiples of that for practice. That's 10's of thousands of rounds fired under controlled conditions to develop the muscle memory and skills. He was no longer an amateur. Hopefully that knowledge makes it somewhat less disturbing for you.

Competency with marksmanship takes a lot practice to achieve and to maintain. Its an ongoing investment of both time and money. I think the majority of gun owners have, unfortunately, not made that investment. I have to receptively consider how much positive impact we just might have on curbing gun violence if we required levels of training and certification/recertification for different divisions of legal gun ownership. Irresponsible and casual gun owners scare me almost as much as criminals with violent intent.

Sure but that's somewhat my point. Vegas was planned and probably practiced, this was planned, pulse was planned and mass casualties result. The flip side is the anti gun crowds sort of picture the use of any guns as the way they are pictured in popular media. The reality is both are true. An AR 15 with 30 round can put a whole lot of bullets into a crowd. So can a pistol with practice.
On the flipside people who just want a gun for protection are unlikely to train hard enough to cause mass shootings.

Common sense legislation should address the fact that its, relatively speaking, easy to make firing lots of rounds into a crowd easy. However, it should much more address that that is the outlier and areas like Chicago are much more the relevant problem.

That's why the video. Those are semi automatic with training, mostly accessible weaponry, and scary, but the result of rare training and planning that is much less common and relevant to gun control than readily accessible handguns.



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[hentzau]

https://twitter.com/szzeif/status/964148278932725760

All I could think of was my son and daughter in the exact same situation.


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[GreenGoo]

The three firearms below are all factory build from the same manufacturer. Under the law, one is a pistol, one is a rifle, and one is an SBR that requires special registration. Each is behioden to different transfer laws, etc. These are not AR-15s or variants. Now imagine what happens with modular AR-15 builds.

And yet somehow other countries manage this impossible task.

[LawBeefaroni]

The three firearms below are all factory build from the same manufacturer. Under the law, one is a pistol, one is a rifle, and one is an SBR that requires special registration. Each is behioden to different transfer laws, etc. These are not AR-15s or variants. Now imagine what happens with modular AR-15 builds.

And yet somehow other countries manage this impossible task.

Not really. They don't try to ban a specific aesthetic. They just ban all semi-auto rifles or handguns or both.

[Chrisoc13]

The three firearms below are all factory build from the same manufacturer. Under the law, one is a pistol, one is a rifle, and one is an SBR that requires special registration. Each is behioden to different transfer laws, etc. These are not AR-15s or variants. Now imagine what happens with modular AR-15 builds.

And yet somehow other countries manage this impossible task.

Not really. They don't try to ban a specific aesthetic. They just ban all semi-auto rifles or handguns or both.

Yeah let's just do that then.

[Rip]

The three firearms below are all factory build from the same manufacturer. Under the law, one is a pistol, one is a rifle, and one is an SBR that requires special registration. Each is behioden to different transfer laws, etc. These are not AR-15s or variants. Now imagine what happens with modular AR-15 builds.

And yet somehow other countries manage this impossible task.

Not really. They don't try to ban a specific aesthetic. They just ban all semi-auto rifles or handguns or both.

Yeah let's just do that then.

I fully support every Democrat running on that platform.

[Chrisoc13]

The three firearms below are all factory build from the same manufacturer. Under the law, one is a pistol, one is a rifle, and one is an SBR that requires special registration. Each is behioden to different transfer laws, etc. These are not AR-15s or variants. Now imagine what happens with modular AR-15 builds.

And yet somehow other countries manage this impossible task.

Not really. They don't try to ban a specific aesthetic. They just ban all semi-auto rifles or handguns or both.

Yeah let's just do that then.

I fully support every Democrat running on that platform.

Good me too. As a previously dyed in the wool Republican too.

[Blackhawk]

And yet somehow other countries manage this impossible task.

Someone always says this. Other countries aren't the US.

There exists absolutely no mechanism by which this nation, as divided as it is on this issue, will currently accept any extreme ban on weapons. It simply will not and can not happen right now. Arguing that it is what we should do is like saying a drowning man should learn to breathe water. It wastes time from actually making progress toward a solution.

Note that I didn't say 'find a solution.' There isn't one. There is no 'do it now' answer. A full solution is something that will only be achieved over a course of generations, and too many people are too focused on idealistic answers that can't possibly be achieved to actually come up with a unified, long-term strategy for firearms.

If people want to make a difference in the larger issue (gun violence), then the dramatic, sweeping changes that need to happen (and could happen) are in a solution to violence itself. Available mental health care, destigmatizing mental illness, poverty, education, law enforcement. Fix those, and violence will decrease (as it already has been for a long, long time.) In the meantime, you can start looking at how to make guns less attractive to people in ten years, and more so in 20, and perhaps in another 40 we can start talking about broad-reaching bans.

It isn't fun to say, but it is reality.

[GreenGoo]

I get it, the US is a unique snowflake.

All countries suffer from the same violence factors, and yet suffer far less gun related death.

Have fun playing cops and robbers.

[GreenGoo]

Not really. They don't try to ban a specific aesthetic. They just ban all semi-auto rifles or handguns or both.

Which of those options did Canada do?

Let's be honest. America can't control its gun violence because it doesn't want to.

[Holman]

Let's be honest. America can't control its gun violence because it doesn't want to.

We do want to.

We are in thrall to a politically powerful minority that benefits from (a) gun sales, (b) the fantasy of armed resistance to oppressive modern government, and (c) gross testosteronic ignorance.

[Blackhawk]

I get it, the US is a unique snowflake.

All countries suffer from the same violence factors, and yet suffer far less gun related death.

Have fun playing cops and robbers.

Every country is unique, snarky names or not. The US suffers from an extreme lack of homogeneity that most other countries don't have to deal with. We are almost more like a region than a united nation when it comes to culture. Save for some historical origins, Southern California and Alabama have about as much in common as Saudi Arabia and Iran.

And a lot of our divisions are between the rural and the urban, which is even more difficult than the coasts vs the south.

[Rip]

Not to mention that many of us value personal liberty above all else.

There will always be a sizeable opposition to any attempt to curtail personal liberties in any fashion.

[gameoverman]

Irresponsible and casual gun owners scare me almost as much as criminals with violent intent.

This is why the idea of a widespread "conceal and carry" mentality truly frightens me. People can barely be trusted to operate a motor vehicle safely. The thought that there could be dozens of random people at any given time ready to pull out a gun to start shooting at a perceived threat? Are you f'ing kidding me?

This is one area of the gun control side that I agree with. If I order a burger combo at a fast food place, I check the bag before I leave because I don't trust them to get my order right. Counting everyone I've known in my entire life, there'd be a small number of people I'd trust to walk around carrying a gun. I myself never have even owned a gun, much less carried one around, because I'm on that "Nope, don't trust him" list too.

"keep and bear arms" does not specify where you get to bear those arms. Certainly at home or on your property or on private property if you have permission of the owner. Outside of that, I think public safety becomes the deciding factor.

[Holman]

Just a question: Has the 2nd Amendment ever actually defended liberty? Even once?

It's true that people with pistols and shotguns and rifles have defended their homes and property from criminals, but have armed citizens (as distinct from the military and police) ever had a positive political effect?

When thinking of what armed groups have accomplished, all I can think of is lynchings, mob violence, and similar threats to citizen rights.

The Civil Rights movement depended on nonviolent action. No voting rights were won with weapons. In fact it was the opposite: activists won recognition of rights by direct nonviolent opposition to oppressors who did everything they could to threaten them with arms.

[GreenGoo]

Not to mention that many of us value personal liberty above all else.

There will always be a sizeable opposition to any attempt to curtail personal liberties in any fashion.

Yawn. There are a million things that the government restricts ownership of, including handheld weaponry.

There is a distinct lack of empathy in the US that masquerades as personal liberty or capitalism. It gives those who don't care about others a shield to hide behind.

They think it makes them righteous. It does not.

Capitalism and personal liberties can exist without hanging everyone who's not you out to dry.

[Skinypupy]

Not to mention that many of us value personal liberty above all else.

Including the lives of other US citizens and schoolchildren, apparently.