Remus West wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 9:46 am
So you are looking for a method of referring to a group of people in a negative fashion without being labeled in return for your blanket use of a negative term?
Snowflake.
He wants to refer to illegal immigrants as illegal immigrants. Honestly, things like this is why moderates complain about the political correctness.
Except when I offered that choice up he gave me reasons why he doesn't which is stupid to me. He said he wanted a way to refer to them negatively. Illegal immigrants does that.
Also, the article he linked was crap in comparing us calling illegal immigrants "illegal" when we do not refer to speeders as illegal drivers. We don't do that because they are not illegal drivers. They are speeders. Someone driving without ever having qualified for a DL is an illegal driver and I'd have no issues with calling them such.
Well, Rip is going to Rip.
At the same time, I have no problem calling an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant and don't particularly care if it hurts their feelings.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
noxiousdog wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 10:40 am
He wants to refer to illegal immigrants as illegal immigrants. Honestly, things like this is why moderates complain about the political correctness.
A term which was already changed to charge it with emotion. Alien was charged with the illegal prefixed adjective and then concept it was modifying was changed to immigrants to euphemise the actual term.
I'm not even in the same zipcode as smart but from where I sit Immigrant applies to a visa for certain kinds of aliens. If you are an illegal immigrant you would be immigrant without an immigrant visa. That's like saying you are an illegal doctorate of psychology.
noxiousdog wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 10:54 am
Well, Rip is going to Rip.
At the same time, I have no problem calling an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant and don't particularly care if it hurts their feelings.
Nor do I, to be honest. But I thought calling them animals was going too far.
If he would just go back to calling them "aminals", it would be all cute and funny.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "“I like taking the guns early...to go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you’re saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.” -President Donald Trump. "...To guard, protect, and maintain his liberty, the freedman should have the ballot; that the liberties of the American people were dependent upon the Ballot-box, the Jury-box, and the Cartridge-box, that without these no class of people could live and flourish in this country." - Frederick Douglass MYT
Well to be far, our current Dear Leader has directly contributed to the debate over language. Illegal immigrant may not have as much of a negative connotation if it wasn't the target of a racist whose paranoia and vindictiveness is leading to a war on ALL immigrants regardless of their actual legal status. Trump's tone, language, and rhetoric is ruining otherwise perfectly normal words. And this is why we can't have nice things.
You don't want political correctness pushback? Don't elect and support a President who's a fucking racist.
In September 2017, House Speaker Paul Ryan traveled to a Harley-Davidson plant in Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, to tout the Republican tax bill, which President Trump would sign later that year. “Tax reform can put American manufacturers and American companies like Harley-Davidson on a much better footing to compete in the global economy and keep jobs here in America,” Ryan told workers and company leaders.
Four months later and 500 miles away in Kansas City, Missouri, 800 workers at a Harley-Davidson factory were told they would lose their jobs when the plant closed its doors and shifted operations to a facility in York, Pennsylvania — a net loss of 350 jobs. Workers and union representatives say they didn’t see it coming.
Just days later, the company announced a dividend increase and a stock buyback plan to repurchase 15 million of its shares, valued at about $696 million.
...
It wasn’t just Ryan who made promises to Harley-Davidson. Trump in February 2017 met with Harley-Davidson executives and union representatives at the White House. He thanked the company for building in America and predicted its operations would grow.
...
Meanwhile, Harley-Davidson is opening up a plant in Thailand, where it plans to start production later this year. (The company also owns and operates facilities in India and Brazil, and it is closing a facility in Australia.) The company says the Thailand plant isn’t meant to outsource jobs but to boost its international business and avoid tax and tariff burdens. Trump’s proposed steel tariffs could pose a threat to Harley and add an estimated $30 million to its costs, and the European Union has threatened to impose a tariff on the company’s motorcycles in retaliation.
...
Harley-Davidson is one of a string of companies to announce major share buybacks since the tax bill was passed in December. Apple in early May said it would buy back $100 billion of its shares. The tech conglomerate Cisco in February said it would put an additional $25 billion toward a stock buyback. Troubled megabank Wells Fargo in January announced about $22 billion in buybacks. Pepsi announced a $15 billion buyback, Amgen and AbbVie $10 billion, and Google’s parent company Alphabet $8.6 billion.
noxiousdog wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 10:54 amWell, Rip is going to Rip.
At the same time, I have no problem calling an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant and don't particularly care if it hurts their feelings.
So we are on the same page then as I don't care if it hurts their feelings either. I was engaging Rip though because Hepcat assures me that we are just *this* close to talking sense into him.
As to the language though, I don't view "illegal immigrant" as offensive because to me it is descriptive not of a group born a certain way but of a group that literally made a choice (their other options may have sucked worse than being here illegally but it was still their choice). They came here illegally from somewhere else - could be Canada for all I care - and they would still be illegals if they did not follow the proper procedures to enter. Where I depart the Republican view point is in trying to determine the fate of every illegal the same way (because for many their other options sucked even worse). We do not handle someone driving without a lisence the same way we handle someone driving without a lisence that intentionally runs over an elderly woman and her dog. In the second case we tend to ignore the lack of a DL and focus on the murder.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
noxiousdog wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 10:54 am
Well, Rip is going to Rip.
At the same time, I have no problem calling an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant and don't particularly care if it hurts their feelings.
Nor do I, to be honest. But I thought calling them animals was going too far.
That was one of the most disgusting things he has ever done, imo.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
noxiousdog wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 10:54 amWell, Rip is going to Rip.
At the same time, I have no problem calling an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant and don't particularly care if it hurts their feelings.
So we are on the same page then as I don't care if it hurts their feelings either. I was engaging Rip though because Hepcat assures me that we are just *this* close to talking sense into him.
I truly feel like we're about to have a breakthrough moment with Rip. 3 or 4 more replies should do it.
Of course the article was stupid. It is in the New Yorker.
Fact remain that the article shows that the left has managed to make people gun-shy about using it because it is almost always used as an excuse to justify calling you a racist based on nothing other than your use of the word. You will get less flack in many circles for using the R-word or the N-word.
Speaking of the leftist word police, how about this.
Rip wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 1:41 pm
Of course the article was stupid. It is in the New Yorker.
Fact remain that the article shows that the left has managed to make people gun-shy about using it because it is almost always used as an excuse to justify calling you a racist based on nothing other than your use of the word. You will get less flack in many circles for using the R-word or the N-word.
Speaking of the leftist word police
Everyone on the left you say? That's some nice hyperbole you got going on there.
Let me try.
Everyone on the right loves the KKK because Trump wouldn't call them out once.
This same thing came out in the Solo thread where MSD was talking about the political correctness of the left putting all these women and minorities into the Star Wars films.
Why can't we stop looking at it as a "liberal left wing" thing, and simply as a matter of human decency thing? Stop demonizing kindness and equality, and start practicing it.
YellowKing wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 2:11 pm
This same thing came out in the Solo thread where MSD was talking about the political correctness of the left putting all these women and minorities into the Star Wars films.
Why can't we stop looking at it as a "liberal left wing" thing, and simply as a matter of human decency thing? Stop demonizing kindness and equality, and start practicing it.
But it's more "putting women and minorities in" in a bad way. For some reason Rogue One is deemed to have put women and minorities in, but in a good way. I think it's just part of a trend of seeing everything one doesn't like as attributable to politics / opponents.
Rip wrote: You will get less flack in many circles for using the R-word or the N-word.
Those circles would be Trump supporters and/or racists. Shall we draw a diagram?
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
Rip wrote: You will get less flack in many circles for using the R-word or the N-word.
Those circles would be Trump supporters and/or racists. Shall we draw a diagram?
Hate to defend Rip here but I hear the N-word daily from my students regardless of their color. All will tell you they are saying a word ending in -a rather than -er which is a major difference to them. Its also why I stop paying attention to people's word foilbles. Which is why I'm confused by being adverse to calling people illegally in the United States illegal immigrants. They immigrated here illegally. The term describes their choice. I don't view it as racist because I don't believe all illegal immigrants are bad people. I don't believe its even close to half of them. Or a fourth. Or a sixteenth...or a...you get the idea.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
Remus West wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 9:46 am
So you are looking for a method of referring to a group of people in a negative fashion without being labeled in return for your blanket use of a negative term?
Snowflake.
He wants to refer to illegal immigrants as illegal immigrants. Honestly, things like this is why moderates complain about the political correctness.
Except when I offered that choice up he gave me reasons why he doesn't which is stupid to me. He said he wanted a way to refer to them negatively. Illegal immigrants does that.
Also, the article he linked was crap in comparing us calling illegal immigrants "illegal" when we do not refer to speeders as illegal drivers. We don't do that because they are not illegal drivers. They are speeders. Someone driving without ever having qualified for a DL is an illegal driver and I'd have no issues with calling them such.
Well, Rip is going to Rip.
At the same time, I have no problem calling an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant and don't particularly care if it hurts their feelings.
I do. I have mexican american friends who have had friends/family who have come to america to work, and some of whom have been deported. I've also had contractor work on my house who likely hired people without green cards to do work, and I treat them like anyone else, friendly and glad for good work. I've lived in Los Angeles with Mexican neighbors, some of whom may have been here illegally, or had friends/family members who were here illegally looking for work and to be with family.
they are still members of the community and to be a good friend or neighbor, I would never be such a dick to go all MAGA on them.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Rip wrote: You will get less flack in many circles for using the R-word or the N-word.
Those circles would be Trump supporters and/or racists. Shall we draw a diagram?
Hate to defend Rip here but I hear the N-word daily from my students regardless of their color. All will tell you they are saying a word ending in -a rather than -er which is a major difference to them. Its also why I stop paying attention to people's word foilbles. Which is why I'm confused by being adverse to calling people illegally in the United States illegal immigrants. They immigrated here illegally. The term describes their choice. I don't view it as racist because I don't believe all illegal immigrants are bad people. I don't believe its even close to half of them. Or a fourth. Or a sixteenth...or a...you get the idea.
Rip wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 1:41 pm
Of course the article was stupid. It is in the New Yorker.
Fact remain that the article shows that the left has managed to make people gun-shy about using it because it is almost always used as an excuse to justify calling you a racist based on nothing other than your use of the word. You will get less flack in many circles for using the R-word or the N-word.
Speaking of the leftist word police
Everyone on the left you say? That's some nice hyperbole you got going on there.
Let me try.
Everyone on the right loves the KKK because Trump wouldn't call them out once.
Hey, that's fun!
I don't see where I said everyone, but ok. For the record lots of lefties do jump right to you must be a KKK loving racist if you support Trump not like you are blazing new territory there.
Rip wrote: You will get less flack in many circles for using the R-word or the N-word.
Those circles would be Trump supporters and/or racists. Shall we draw a diagram?
Hate to defend Rip here but I hear the N-word daily from my students regardless of their color. All will tell you they are saying a word ending in -a rather than -er which is a major difference to them. Its also why I stop paying attention to people's word foilbles. Which is why I'm confused by being adverse to calling people illegally in the United States illegal immigrants. They immigrated here illegally. The term describes their choice. I don't view it as racist because I don't believe all illegal immigrants are bad people. I don't believe its even close to half of them. Or a fourth. Or a sixteenth...or a...you get the idea.
You should hear my son who loves hip-hop. It makes me cringe when I overhear him singing along. I've tried to tell him that it will result in someone confronting him over it (and I'm not talking about some racist who doesn't like him singing it) and I fear he will end up being shot someday by someone who overreacts to him using the N-word while singing along in a song about all kinds of nasty ways the songs today like to sing about women. He is just trying to impress the Becky(s) I think.
noxiousdog wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 10:54 am
At the same time, I have no problem calling an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant and don't particularly care if it hurts their feelings.
I do. I have mexican american friends who have had friends/family who have come to america to work, and some of whom have been deported. I've also had contractor work on my house who likely hired people without green cards to do work, and I treat them like anyone else, friendly and glad for good work. I've lived in Los Angeles with Mexican neighbors, some of whom may have been here illegally, or had friends/family members who were here illegally looking for work and to be with family.
they are still members of the community and to be a good friend or neighbor, I would never be such a dick to go all MAGA on them.
Calling someone who immigrated illegally an illegal immigrant isn't an attack on them, it isn't a judgment, and it isn't disrespectful. It is simply the term for them in the context of what they did. It isn't the same as spitting 'criminal' at them in an attempt to equate them with violent felons, or 'animals' to make them seem less-than-human.
Rip wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 3:50 pm
I don't see where I said everyone, but ok. For the record lots of lefties do jump right to you must be a KKK loving racist if you support Trump not like you are blazing new territory there.
I'll give you lots of me can't understand how you can support Trump and look the other way with regard to the way he treats racists and accepts endorsements not just from bigots but from loud and proud to a bigot in the name of Trump and will jump right at you with my inability to understand this.
Though I'm not a leftie, unless you mean sinistral. I am, in fact sinistral, and I have an innate and visceral hatred for notebooks bound on the left side scissors that look like this
Pyperkub wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 3:47 pm
I do. I have mexican american friends who have had friends/family who have come to america to work, and some of whom have been deported. I've also had contractor work on my house who likely hired people without green cards to do work, and I treat them like anyone else, friendly and glad for good work. I've lived in Los Angeles with Mexican neighbors, some of whom may have been here illegally, or had friends/family members who were here illegally looking for work and to be with family.
they are still members of the community and to be a good friend or neighbor,
Everything above is fine and I concur.
I would never be such a dick to go all MAGA on them.
This is where you lose me.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
Last edited by noxiousdog on Tue May 22, 2018 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 4:02 pm
Top-bound spirals are superior.
In every way! I had a come to Jesus moment when I discovered them in high school and I curse anyone among the righties who latch on to their out moded out dated dextral arrogant ways.
Rip wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 3:50 pm
I don't see where I said everyone, but ok. For the record lots of lefties do jump right to you must be a KKK loving racist if you support Trump not like you are blazing new territory there.
I'll give you lots of me can't understand how you can support Trump and look the other way with regard to the way he treats racists and accepts endorsements not just from bigots but from loud and proud to a bigot in the name of Trump and will jump right at you with my inability to understand this.
Though I'm not a leftie, unless you mean sinistral. I am, in fact sinistral, and I have an innate and visceral hatred for notebooks bound on the left side scissors that look like this
The thing is I balance it out by looking at all the hateful people supporting the left. Don't ever see them turning away from people like Bill Ayers, Nation of Islam, Black Panthers, Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, and so on. Neither party is big on turning away votes or cash.
Rip wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 4:10 pm
The thing is I balance it out by looking at all the hateful people supporting the left. Don't ever see them turning away from people like Bill Ayers, Nation of Islam, Black Panthers, Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, and so on. Neither party is big on turning away votes or cash.
I won't speak to the rest because I'd need to see context or better understand the group but there is context of need for further understanding to say I will jump right at you if you accept endorsements and refuse to condemn Hamas, even as I also condemn Israel for shooting at people approaching their Gaza fences. Hamas are a group worthy of no sympathy even if the people they represent often are.
Rip wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 1:41 pm
Of course the article was stupid. It is in the New Yorker.
Fact remain that the article shows that the left has managed to make people gun-shy about using it because it is almost always used as an excuse to justify calling you a racist based on nothing other than your use of the word. You will get less flack in many circles for using the R-word or the N-word.
Speaking of the leftist word police
Everyone on the left you say? That's some nice hyperbole you got going on there.
Let me try.
Everyone on the right loves the KKK because Trump wouldn't call them out once.
Hey, that's fun!
I don't see where I said everyone, but ok. For the record lots of lefties do jump right to you must be a KKK loving racist if you support Trump not like you are blazing new territory there.
Rip wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 3:50 pm
I don't see where I said everyone, but ok. For the record lots of lefties do jump right to you must be a KKK loving racist if you support Trump not like you are blazing new territory there.
I'll give you lots of me can't understand how you can support Trump and look the other way with regard to the way he treats racists and accepts endorsements not just from bigots but from loud and proud to a bigot in the name of Trump and will jump right at you with my inability to understand this.
Though I'm not a leftie, unless you mean sinistral. I am, in fact sinistral, and I have an innate and visceral hatred for notebooks bound on the left side scissors that look like this
The thing is I balance it out by looking at all the hateful people supporting the left. Don't ever see them turning away from people like Bill Ayers, Nation of Islam, Black Panthers, Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, and so on. Neither party is big on turning away votes or cash.
That's not balancing it out. That's looking for ways to make the other "side" seem as bad as you believe your own is. It's an equivocation, not a defense.
hepcat wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 4:34 pm
That's not balancing it out. That's looking for ways to make the other "side" seem as bad as you believe your own is. It's an equivocation, not a defense.
For a second I thought you were trying to justify the digital torture device they call scissors. I'll give you a pass this time.
noxiousdog wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 10:54 am
At the same time, I have no problem calling an illegal immigrant an illegal immigrant and don't particularly care if it hurts their feelings.
I do. I have mexican american friends who have had friends/family who have come to america to work, and some of whom have been deported. I've also had contractor work on my house who likely hired people without green cards to do work, and I treat them like anyone else, friendly and glad for good work. I've lived in Los Angeles with Mexican neighbors, some of whom may have been here illegally, or had friends/family members who were here illegally looking for work and to be with family.
they are still members of the community and to be a good friend or neighbor, I would never be such a dick to go all MAGA on them.
Calling someone who immigrated illegally an illegal immigrant isn't an attack on them, it isn't a judgment, and it isn't disrespectful. It is simply the term for them in the context of what they did. It isn't the same as spitting 'criminal' at them in an attempt to equate them with violent felons, or 'animals' to make them seem less-than-human.
1. You don't generally know that they don't have a green card,or were born in east la. So calling them illegal without proof is a dick move,and why would you so that in the first place? That's a great conversation opener -gee, are you here illegally?
2. It cam alai be a veiled threat - don't piss me if our I'll call ICE on your illegal ass.
If you're a guest at a party, you don't start speculating on who is here legally and who may not be, it's a dick MAGA move.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Rip wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 3:50 pm
I don't see where I said everyone, but ok. For the record lots of lefties do jump right to you must be a KKK loving racist if you support Trump not like you are blazing new territory there.
I'll give you lots of me can't understand how you can support Trump and look the other way with regard to the way he treats racists and accepts endorsements not just from bigots but from loud and proud to a bigot in the name of Trump and will jump right at you with my inability to understand this.
Though I'm not a leftie, unless you mean sinistral. I am, in fact sinistral, and I have an innate and visceral hatred for notebooks bound on the left side scissors that look like this
The thing is I balance it out by looking at all the hateful people supporting the left. Don't ever see them turning away from people like Bill Ayers, Nation of Islam, Black Panthers, Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, and so on. Neither party is big on turning away votes or cash.
That's not balancing it out. That's looking for ways to make the other "side" seem as bad as you believe your own is. It's an equivocation, not a defense.
Then allow me to make the defense easy. I have no choice of political affiliation that lacks ties to hate organizations. They all have ties to hate groups.
