The Former Trump Presidency Thread

[LordMortis]

Canadian networks broadcast the anthem(s) before NHL games they show all the time.

The only time I see any US affiliate broadcast the anthem in the NHL is during playoffs. This is re-inforced in my memory because I have made sure to tune in to the puck drop to catch a musician I want to see (such as when Dave King and Bridget Reagan opened a game) and we get is pre game talking heads.

For reasons I don't understand every so often FSD will tune in to the park for the BoSox while they're doing their Sweet Caroline 7th Inning stretch thing during the season. That's as close as it ever seems to come.

[Isgrimnur]

The Jets probably won't be the only team to pay players' fines, and on top of that (depending on how significant the fines are) I imagine some players (or even people outside the league) will be willing to pay fines too.

They are not the player's fines. The fines are on the team from the NFL. The teams will each get to make their own policy regarding fining their players/employees.

You know, I knew that, but I think I got confused because of the Jets owner saying that he would pay the fines. If it's a team fine....isn't he the one obligated to pay it ultimately anyway? I guess what he would ultimately be taking on then is the percentage of fine that could be allocated to (financial) minority owners?

He is, but the policy also allows the teams to fine their people. It's a shell game done specifically to avoid having dealing with the NFLPA.

“I do not like imposing any club-specific rules,” [chairman Chris] Johnson said. “If somebody [on the Jets] takes a knee, that fine will be borne by the organization, by me, not the players. I never want to put restrictions on the speech of our players. Do I prefer that they stand? Of course. But I understand if they felt the need to protest. There are some big, complicated issues that we’re all struggling with, and our players are on the front lines. I don’t want to come down on them like a ton of bricks, and I won’t. There will be no club fines or suspensions or any sort of repercussions. If the team gets fined, that’s just something I’ll have to bear.”

[El Guapo]

The Jets probably won't be the only team to pay players' fines, and on top of that (depending on how significant the fines are) I imagine some players (or even people outside the league) will be willing to pay fines too.

They are not the player's fines. The fines are on the team from the NFL. The teams will each get to make their own policy regarding fining their players/employees.

You know, I knew that, but I think I got confused because of the Jets owner saying that he would pay the fines. If it's a team fine....isn't he the one obligated to pay it ultimately anyway? I guess what he would ultimately be taking on then is the percentage of fine that could be allocated to (financial) minority owners?

He is, but the policy also allows the teams to fine their people. It's a shell game done specifically to avoid having dealing with the NFLPA.

“I do not like imposing any club-specific rules,” [chairman Chris] Johnson said. “If somebody [on the Jets] takes a knee, that fine will be borne by the organization, by me, not the players. I never want to put restrictions on the speech of our players. Do I prefer that they stand? Of course. But I understand if they felt the need to protest. There are some big, complicated issues that we’re all struggling with, and our players are on the front lines. I don’t want to come down on them like a ton of bricks, and I won’t. There will be no club fines or suspensions or any sort of repercussions. If the team gets fined, that’s just something I’ll have to bear.”

Ah, ok - that makes sense.

Though this is the Jets, so I'm excited to find out how they're going to screw this up exactly.

[Kurth]

Its all about symbolism.

That's my problem, since before I knew what symbolism was.

Taken literally the Anthem is pretty silly too.

The anthem is not literally demanding my allegiance through daily re-enforcement.

What’s wrong with symbolism? You can have symbolic stand-ins for all kinds of stuff, good, bad, etc. But there’s nothing wrong with symbolism in and of itself. Hell, it’s really necessary shorthand. Try to go through life without it.

Also, while I’m 100% against the NFL’s latest bone-headed anthem policy (which I agree will blow up in their faces), I’m not nearly so down on the flag or the National Anthem as many of you seem to be.

When I think about the flag, I think about a lot of positives, mixed in with some definite negatives and some hypocrisy. Come to think of it, countries are a lot like people. Overall, despite the fact that we’re going through some tough and unflattering times, I wouldn’t choose to live any where else. But that’s just me.

[Unagi]

yeah, that's just you...

Honestly, I don't think your position is too far from many of ours.


I mean - you don't like the choice the NFL made for exactly the same reasons? right?

I'm sure as much as you love the flag and/or the country -- you certainly don't feel that it should be forced ?
I'm sure as much as you love the flag and/or the country -- you can understand others do too, but still chose to not stand for the anthem ?

You can love your country (and it's symbol: the flag) and still be very upset with certain parts and you can protest that by saying it doesn't represent the America you would stand and salute....

I guess I'm saying that it's OK to love your country and be disappointed in it at the same time.

[Pyperkub]

Its all about symbolism.

That's my problem, since before I knew what symbolism was.

Taken literally the Anthem is pretty silly too.

The anthem is not literally demanding my allegiance through daily re-enforcement.

What’s wrong with symbolism? You can have symbolic stand-ins for all kinds of stuff, good, bad, etc. But there’s nothing wrong with symbolism in and of itself. Hell, it’s really necessary shorthand. Try to go through life without it.

Also, while I’m 100% against the NFL’s latest bone-headed anthem policy (which I agree will blow up in their faces), I’m not nearly so down on the flag or the National Anthem as many of you seem to be.

When I think about the flag, I think about a lot of positives, mixed in with some definite negatives and some hypocrisy. Come to think of it, countries are a lot like people. Overall, despite the fact that we’re going through some tough and unflattering times, I wouldn’t choose to live any where else. But that’s just me.

It's more the people who think that mindlessly wrapping themselves in the flag is more patriotic than taking a knee.

If I were organizing players about this, I'd go all '68 Olympics: a single, black gloved fist in the air with your heads down during the anthem, and get the whole team to do it.

[stessier]

I'll be counter-boycotting the NFL over this. Fuck you and your forced patriotism. This is a free country even if we do have a dictator in the White House.

The Jets just became my adopted team.

It kills me that I want to join you. What he said was just perfect. I kind of wonder why he voted for the rule, though, if he felt that way.

[Remus West]

I'll be counter-boycotting the NFL over this. Fuck you and your forced patriotism. This is a free country even if we do have a dictator in the White House.

The Jets just became my adopted team.

It kills me that I want to join you. What he said was just perfect. I kind of wonder why he voted for the rule, though, if he felt that way.

Again people take the Commish at his word when his word has been repeatedly proven false. I do not for a second believe it was a unanimous vote.

[stessier]

I'll be counter-boycotting the NFL over this. Fuck you and your forced patriotism. This is a free country even if we do have a dictator in the White House.

The Jets just became my adopted team.

It kills me that I want to join you. What he said was just perfect. I kind of wonder why he voted for the rule, though, if he felt that way.

Again people take the Commish at his word when his word has been repeatedly proven false. I do not for a second believe it was a unanimous vote.

That's one of those things that it would hurt too much to lie. A reporter always finds out.

Did they release a fine schedule? I mean, is it like $1000/player and it increases over time, or just always $1000?

[El Guapo]

I'll be counter-boycotting the NFL over this. Fuck you and your forced patriotism. This is a free country even if we do have a dictator in the White House.

The Jets just became my adopted team.

It kills me that I want to join you. What he said was just perfect. I kind of wonder why he voted for the rule, though, if he felt that way.

Again people take the Commish at his word when his word has been repeatedly proven false. I do not for a second believe it was a unanimous vote.

It seems plausible that they leaned on "no" votes to abstain so that the league could say that it was unanimous.

[noxiousdog]

While our flag still brings a lump to my throat I owe it no loyalty. The flag is a symbol and people co-opt symbols and symbols change meaning all of the time.

Its all about symbolism. The pledge even states that the flag is a stand in for "the Republic."

It's still about pledging allegiance. Freedom and allegiance are mutually exclusive.

[Unagi]

I'll be counter-boycotting the NFL over this. Fuck you and your forced patriotism. This is a free country even if we do have a dictator in the White House.

The Jets just became my adopted team.

It kills me that I want to join you. What he said was just perfect. I kind of wonder why he voted for the rule, though, if he felt that way.

Isn't it clear - I'm sure the NFL made it clear (as it's been made clear to them) that Trump would turn his base against the NFL. So - to save the NFL from Trump, they put a punishment in place.

[Smoove_B]

It's still about pledging allegiance.

Which explains why President Trump has such a (tiny) raging hard-on for NFL players saying it.

[Carpet_pissr]

I guess I'm saying that it's OK to love your country and be disappointed in it at the same time.

I think this is yet another ideological dividing line between the two countries of America, the red and the blue. Unfortunately this too has become a battle in the culture war among ourselves - the blues probably aligned with your position above, and the reds generally disagree.

Blue: Stand or not should be a choice, especially given each person's view of the state of the country. If you feel proud, stand. If you feel ashamed, or simply want to express disappointment at the current direction or injustices/hypocrisy of the country, it's ok to sit.

Red: You should stand no matter what. While we may have flaws, pride should not be something you turn on and off depending on how you feel that day. You show disrespect to those who died in wars by not standing (I don't get this one, but it is a thing).

Personally, I think we are at peak jingoism (especially with this administration), and the direction we are headed (backward) as a country literally sickens me. OTOH, I completely support someone like MSD kneeling or not standing under a very ideologically liberal America. Hell, even turn the flag upside down. I value national harmony, but I value voicing our individual opinions more.

[El Guapo]

I guess I'm saying that it's OK to love your country and be disappointed in it at the same time.

I think this is yet another ideological dividing line between the two countries of America, the red and the blue. Unfortunately this too has become a battle in the culture war among ourselves - the blues probably aligned with your position above, and the reds generally disagree.

Blue: Stand or not should be a choice, especially given each person's view of the state of the country. If you feel proud, stand. If you feel ashamed, or simply want to express disappointment at the current direction or injustices/hypocrisy of the country, it's ok to sit.

Red: You should stand no matter what. While we may have flaws, pride should not be something you turn on and off depending on how you feel that day. You show disrespect to those who died in wars by not standing (I don't get this one, but it is a thing).

To state the semi-obvious, clearly race is a big part of the divide here too:

The explanation for this contradiction between his demands that players revere the flag and his own contempt for its spirit is easily explained. Patriotism is the cover for Trump’s true intention, which is to delegitimize protest on behalf of African-American civil rights. One of the better specimens of the genre of reported stories from Trump country is a missive written by Michael Kruse last November about Johnstown, Pennsylvania. Kruse found that Trump’s supporters brought up the NFL protests over and over. “More than anything, what seemed to upset the people I spoke with was the National Football League players who have knelt during the national anthem to protest police brutality and racial inequality.” And when he explored the source of that anger, the emotions veered not to patriotism but to race. “All my ancestors, Italian, 100 percent Italian, the Irish, Germans, Polish, whatever — they all came over here, settled in places like this, they worked hard and they earned the respect,” one voter told him. “They earned the success that they got. Some people don’t want to do that. They just want it handed to them.” He proceeded to blurt out that he believes “NFL” stands for “niggers for life.”

Trump has shrewdly grasped the connection his racism draws between him and his base, which has largely forgiven the failures of his many promises to improve their lives directly by bringing back factories, giving everybody health care, and so on. Even the targets of his bullying have submitted to his racial demagoguery, or joined in eagerly. Attorney General Jeff Sessions has proclaimed the end of Obama-era reforms which conciliated between civil-rights activists and police to yield a wave of law-enforcement reforms. Of course, the persistence of abusive policing is the very source of the protests by NFL players, so maintaining police abuse, and stoking more protest and therefore white resentment, serves Trump’s interests.

[LordMortis]

What’s wrong with symbolism?

Nothing. I love symbolism. Don't ask me to be loyal to a symbol though. I will tell you no 100% of the time.

While our flag still brings a lump to my throat I owe it no loyalty. The flag is a symbol and people co-opt symbols and symbols change meaning all of the time.

Its all about symbolism. The pledge even states that the flag is a stand in for "the Republic."

It's still about pledging allegiance. Freedom and allegiance are mutually exclusive.

Unquestioning allegiance the US is hard enough. As a child I would have given it though. But that's not it.

I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
For which it stands

There is an ordinal and a separation there: Flag is a separate entity than the Republic. Using the republic is much harder (though demonstrably possible) than using the flag. That sense of defiance against a singular undefined yet warpable unquestioned authority has been with me since long before I could understand why.

the direction we are headed (backward) as a country sicken me (literally).

Me too. I truly am a snowflake.

[Unagi]

Nothing. I love symbolism. Don't ask me to be loyal to a symbol though. I will tell you no 100% of the time.

[LordMortis]

[Unagi]

Oh c'mon LM - why don't you jump on the team and come on for the big win!?

[Max Peck]

Jared got his security clearance back after meeting with Meuller's team a second time.

To be fair...

[LordMortis]

Oh c'mon LM - why don't you jump on the team and come on for the big win!?

I wish I knew. Some things I can be reasonable about and readily work the idea that the world and my relationship to it is fluid. Something I can be stubborn about and still be illuminated to the error my ways. Some things, I think I'm just broken and a sort of analog to a nonsensical pedantic takes over. I am the fanatic I quickly tire over seeing in other people.

[stessier]

I'll be counter-boycotting the NFL over this. Fuck you and your forced patriotism. This is a free country even if we do have a dictator in the White House.

The Jets just became my adopted team.

It kills me that I want to join you. What he said was just perfect. I kind of wonder why he voted for the rule, though, if he felt that way.

Again people take the Commish at his word when his word has been repeatedly proven false. I do not for a second believe it was a unanimous vote.

That's one of those things that it would hurt too much to lie. A reporter always finds out.

You were right.


https://twitter.com/SethWickersham/stat ... 2128203777

@SethWickersham
22m22 minutes ago
More
As I just said on @OTLonESPN sources in the room told me there was no official vote for the anthem resolution. League execs polled owners and knew how they’d vote but didn’t hold an official vote, atypical for such a major resolution.

Also told that Mark Davis was one of the most eloquent speakers on the social justice issues—and that he abstained from the vote as well.

[YellowKing]

I’m not nearly so down on the flag or the National Anthem as many of you seem to be.

This is the crux of the controversy. People who think kneeling during the anthem is disrespect to the anthem/flag.

In fact, I'd argue it's the opposite. That those who kneel are showing MORE patriotism than those who don't. Because they understand that blind devotion to a symbol is not what America is all about. Freedom is what America is all about. And that includes free speech, free expression, and freedom to not have to slavishly show respect to the Motherland.

Those people kneeling are fighting for a better America. Not one in which we cluelessly just believe it's great because the President says so.

[El Guapo]

I'll be counter-boycotting the NFL over this. Fuck you and your forced patriotism. This is a free country even if we do have a dictator in the White House.

The Jets just became my adopted team.

It kills me that I want to join you. What he said was just perfect. I kind of wonder why he voted for the rule, though, if he felt that way.

Again people take the Commish at his word when his word has been repeatedly proven false. I do not for a second believe it was a unanimous vote.

That's one of those things that it would hurt too much to lie. A reporter always finds out.

You were right.


https://twitter.com/SethWickersham/stat ... 2128203777

@SethWickersham
22m22 minutes ago
More
As I just said on @OTLonESPN sources in the room told me there was no official vote for the anthem resolution. League execs polled owners and knew how they’d vote but didn’t hold an official vote, atypical for such a major resolution.

Also told that Mark Davis was one of the most eloquent speakers on the social justice issues—and that he abstained from the vote as well.

Yeah, that's what I was expecting. Goodell wasn't lying - he's (usually) to respectable to outright lie on something that black and white. Hence the abstentions - they can accurately say that the vote was unanimous (all votes were yes), while being douchy and misleading at the same time.

Of course, it's not like they really look all that much better this way, but I don't think Goodell really thinks more than one step ahead.

[GreenGoo]

The US is awesome and both the anthem and flag represent it.

The killing of black people by law enforcement is a major blemish on the US.

Kneeling during the anthem is protesting that blemish, not the anthem itself. Kneeling during the anthem is to bring attention to the blemish so that it can be removed and the anthem can be pristine.

Unless you think the US is perfect just the way it is, kneeling is about cleaning the blemishes, making sure the US remains awesome.

The blemish is unjust killing by law enforcement, not the act of kneeling.

[Skinypupy]

The US is awesome and both the anthem and flag represent it.

The killing of black people by law enforcement is a major blemish on the US.

Kneeling during the anthem is protesting that blemish, not the anthem itself. Kneeling during the anthem is to bring attention to the blemish so that it can be removed and the anthem can be pristine.

Unless you think the US is perfect just the way it is, kneeling is about cleaning the blemishes, making sure the US remains awesome.

The blemish is unjust killing by law enforcement, not the act of kneeling.

I’d be willing to bet that those who are howling the loudest about players kneeling don’t see law enforcement violence towards people of color as a blemish (i.e. “if they had just done what the officer was asking, they’d be fine!”)

[Remus West]

@SethWickersham
22m22 minutes ago
More
As I just said on @OTLonESPN sources in the room told me there was no official vote for the anthem resolution. League execs polled owners and knew how they’d vote but didn’t hold an official vote, atypical for such a major resolution.

Also told that Mark Davis was one of the most eloquent speakers on the social justice issues—and that he abstained from the vote as well.

Yeah, that's what I was expecting. Goodell wasn't lying - he's (usually) to respectable to outright lie on something that black and white. Hence the abstentions - they can accurately say that the vote was unanimous (all votes were yes), while being douchy and misleading at the same time.

Of course, it's not like they really look all that much better this way, but I don't think Goodell really thinks more than one step ahead.

Color shows he outright lied. There was no official vote so claiming a vote was unanimous is an outright lie.

[TheMix]

Ah... but semantics! Much like the famous cat, the vote can be said to be both unanimous and not.

Or some such BS.

[Paingod]

Unless you think the US is perfect just the way it is, kneeling is about cleaning the blemishes, making sure the US remains awesome.

Thus the last "A" in MAGA.

They don't think it's perfect. They think it's swung too far and zipped past it. They yearn for a return to the 1950's era of American awesome... in every way.

[DOS=HIGH]

Unless you think the US is perfect just the way it is, kneeling is about cleaning the blemishes, making sure the US remains awesome.

Thus the last "A" in MAGA.

They don't think it's perfect. They think it's swung too far and zipped past it. They yearn for a return to the 1950's era of American awesome... in every way.

I believe many would also be happy with the 1850's.

[LordMortis]

It is weird that I want to turn my entire Internet presence into this tell all picture?



It really is the perfect image that says everything.

[Remus West]

If it said everything it would include "and everyone's future".

[LordMortis]

If it said everything it would include "and everyone's future".

I thought their irreverence to humanity and possibly to life on earth was implied in his pride and her joy pose.

That is not the pride and joy pose in a TShirt that aligns with the Golden Rule or Jesus Loves All The Boys and Girls.

[Alefroth]

cut video and stuff

That has to be parody, right?

Watch the entire thing. It’s not parody.

Ah, I get it now. I only watched the first couple minutes and didn't realize the MAGA dude wasn't Joyner Lucas.

[Kurth]

I’m not nearly so down on the flag or the National Anthem as many of you seem to be.

This is the crux of the controversy. People who think kneeling during the anthem is disrespect to the anthem/flag.

In fact, I'd argue it's the opposite. That those who kneel are showing MORE patriotism than those who don't. Because they understand that blind devotion to a symbol is not what America is all about. Freedom is what America is all about. And that includes free speech, free expression, and freedom to not have to slavishly show respect to the Motherland.

Those people kneeling are fighting for a better America. Not one in which we cluelessly just believe it's great because the President says so.

I’m not sure, but I think you may have missed what I was saying. I agree with everything you say here. I completely agree with you that those protesting the flag and the anthem are true patriots. There’s nothing in the least unpatriotic about what they’re doing.

My comments were generally directed toward those in this thread who I perceived as casting shade at the anthem and the flag as “silly” and as mere “symbols.” That I disagree with. It’s precisely because those are important, valuable symbols of some of the core values of this country (representative government, freedom, the rule of law, etc.) that the protests have meaning and are significant.

[RunningMn9]

I don't think Goodell really thinks more than one step ahead.

This is one of those times that it amazes me how effective Goodell is at his job (to take the heat that the owners don’t want to take). Goodell had nothing to do with this nonsense, but his employers put it on him and skate away clean(ish).

[Unagi]

I’m not nearly so down on the flag or the National Anthem as many of you seem to be.

This is the crux of the controversy. People who think kneeling during the anthem is disrespect to the anthem/flag.

In fact, I'd argue it's the opposite. That those who kneel are showing MORE patriotism than those who don't. Because they understand that blind devotion to a symbol is not what America is all about. Freedom is what America is all about. And that includes free speech, free expression, and freedom to not have to slavishly show respect to the Motherland.

Those people kneeling are fighting for a better America. Not one in which we cluelessly just believe it's great because the President says so.

I’m not sure, but I think you may have missed what I was saying. I agree with everything you say here. I completely agree with you that those protesting the flag and the anthem are true patriots. There’s nothing in the least unpatriotic about what they’re doing.

My comments were generally directed toward those in this thread who I perceived as casting shade at the anthem and the flag as “silly” and as mere “symbols.” That I disagree with. It’s precisely because those are important, valuable symbols of some of the core values of this country (representative government, freedom, the rule of law, etc.) that the protests have meaning and are significant.

But you seem to think you are countering other peoples' position, where in everyone here seems to also love and respect the same things you are saying you do. The one difference is you are actually putting value on the symbol where we are saying it's just a symbol... and be careful how some peolpe may lead you around by the symbol but have lost touch with the core values it represents. And frankly, I think you get that. Right?

[noxiousdog]

But you seem to think you are countering other peoples' position, where in everyone here seems to also love and respect the same things you are saying you do. The one difference is you are actually putting value on the symbol where we are saying it's just a symbol... and be careful how some peolpe may lead you around by the symbol but have lost touch with the core values it represents. And frankly, I think you get that. Right?

I agree with Kurth though maybe not to the same degree.

Doing something counter to a ritual is offensive. That's the point. If it wasn't offensive people would just ignore you. The question of whether the offense is warranted.

When Kaepernick started his demonstration, it wasn't clear to me what he wanted or why he was drawing attention to himself. He picked just about the worst possible way to do it. We have a strong patriotic ritual before every sports game and the NFL is way more about team than any other sport. So Kaepernick's plan was to become an individual in a team game by attacking one of the oldest rituals (1918 and of course started during wartime) we have in the US. He probably couldn't have picked a more offensive plan except desecrating the flag or declaring war on Christmas.

However, in standard fashion, Trump managed to make the whole thing worse and his opponents look better. So by turning the demonstration from one person to a national conversation that included Kaepernick's co-workers, it was no longer an individual attacking the flag, but instead a legitimate call to action.

Yes, it's perception, but that's what demonstrations are about.

[LordMortis]

This is one of those times that it amazes me how effective Goodell is at his job (to take the heat that the owners don’t want to take). Goodell had nothing to do with this nonsense, but his employers put it on him and skate away clean(ish).

That's a take I hadn't thought about and deserves some cogitation.

When Kaepernick started his demonstration, it wasn't clear to me what he wanted or why he was drawing attention to himself. He picked just about the worst possible way to do it. We have a strong patriotic ritual before every sports game and the NFL is way more about team than any other sport. So Kaepernick's plan was to become an individual in a team game by attacking one of the oldest rituals (1918 and of course started during wartime) we have in the US.

What's weird is if you change worst to best, I that would be where I sit. I am happy that this issue isn't dying because I am unhappy with how, we as a nation are treating the reason for his protest. It's civil disobedience at its best.

OTOH, if the NFL had said this is a work place, not your pulpit, I'd have had sympathy for the side of the conversation I don't agree with but...

However, in standard fashion, Trump managed to make the whole thing worse and his opponents look better. So by turning the demonstration from one person to a national conversation that included Kaepernick's co-workers, it was no longer an individual attacking the flag, but instead a legitimate call to action.

Yes, it's perception, but that's what demonstrations are about.

So I took a slight detour but we ended at the same destination.

I am dismayed that what is not being hammered home at every opportunity that (oddly enough based on this thread) that we constantly lose sight that this is all just a symbol, a stand in. I'm happy the symbol is not fading because treatment of race, racial tension, is having its tensile strength tested and that we don't bury the conversation for another decade or another lost generation. I'm sad that we keep letting the symbol dominate the conversation.

[Carpet_pissr]

I am dismayed that what is not being hammered home at every opportunity that (oddly enough based on this thread) that we constantly lose sight that this is all just a symbol, a stand in. I'm happy the symbol is not fading because treatment of race, racial tension, is having its tensile strength tested and that we don't bury the conversation for another decade or another lost generation. I'm sad that we keep letting the symbol dominate the conversation.

And again it's about the polarized country, red vs blue.

There is decidedly one "color" that is raising hell about the symbol itself (including Flag Pin Gate type bullshit). My hypothesis is that these are not well thought out positions, but ingrained reactions based on years of being taught to say the Pledge of Allegiance EVERY DAY at school, standing and saluting the flag, etc. If you never stop to question that behavior, at least some moderate self reflection on it, you are likely going to be angry when someone else does and reacts accordingly. Maybe 'indoctrination' is too strong of a word here, but maybe not. Red team would definitely call it 'patriotism'.

"No matter what, you respect the flag" is probably a fair assessment of the position by a large number of conservatives. My personal opinion is that the "what" matters. Maybe it's all that matters.