[Pizza Wars 2013] Chicago style vs New York style

[Archinerd]

You black olive lovers should go to hell.

Though funny, I didn't actually say I don't like black olives.

It's quoted, so you must have said it. And you are absolutely correct. Anyone that would foul pizza or casserole with little black death bombs is doing themselves no favor.

Before I decide to agree with you or not, I'd like to know your stance on pineapple.

[hepcat]

I feel it's time to list the quintessential pizza toppings in order to end this debate:

Cheese
Pepperoni
Sausage (Italian)
Anchovies
Onions
Black olives
Green peppers


Things I will allow others to add at times:

Mushrooms


Things that if added, will cause me to snap and dispense justice with my two fists of hot retribution:

Anything else (including pineapple)

I hope we can all return to our other conversations now that this one has been effectively ended by truth bombs.

[Jeff V]

I feel it's time to list the quintessential pizza toppings in order to end this debate:

Onions
Black olives
Green peppers

Keep your vegan shit off my pizza goddamnit!

[Unagi]

No bacon or spinach?

[hepcat]

No, bacon is a delicacy best savored on its own. Not hurled in with the common rabble of pepperoni and sausage. Also, its grease factor is too high. It could potentially weaken the structural integrity of a pie. And finally, anchovies and bacon don't play well together.

As for spinach, I can't tell if you're serious or just drunk right now.

[LordMortis]

I feel it's time to list the quintessential pizza toppings in order to end this debate:

Cheese
Pepperoni
Sausage (Italian)
Anchovies Stupid. You can't even have a half stinky little fish pizza. It will infect the whole damned thing
Onions
Black olives
Green peppers
Mushrooms
Ground beef
Peppercino
Bacon
Ham

While while most pizza is fine, this is how God intended for pizza to be made. This is why the Jet 10 is such a treat. It has it all but peppercino.

it is a perfect blend of flavors and textures. A veritable acid trip orgasm for my mouth. Crunchy and chewey, meat and vegatable and condiment and bread and grease all fighting for supremacy.

This is what I want to see when I open a pizza box:



I can imagine the smell right now. It's heaven.

[hentzau]

You can pry my Hawaiian pizza out of my cold dead hands. I just wish I wasn't in the minority...I get it very rarely because my family think I'm nuts.

Oh, and there's a place in Park Ridge that makes a delicious BBQ pizza. BBQ and tomato sauce, chicken, bacon, and green onions on a thin crust. Heaven.

[Remus West]

I feel it's time to list the quintessential pizza toppings in order to end this debate:

Cheese
Pepperoni
Sausage (Italian)
Anchovies
Onions
Black olives
Green peppers


Things I will allow others to add at times:

Mushrooms


Things that if added, will cause me to snap and dispense justice with my two fists of hot retribution:

Anything else (including pineapple)

I hope we can all return to our other conversations now that this one has been effectively ended by truth bombs.

You need to try Cottage Inn's Mediteranean Chicken pizza. Its awesome.

[LordMortis]

You need to try Cottage Inn's Mediteranean Chicken pizza. Its awesome.

I don't which chicken pizza is but you want CI's thin crust with feta, peppercino, and grilled chicken. If that is the Mediterranean then I concur, it's the only item on the menu. Don't bother with anything else. So good. It even tastes healthy. It's not, but it tastes that way and I like to pretend.

[Jeff V]

You need to try Cottage Inn's Mediteranean Chicken pizza. Its awesome.

I don't which chicken pizza is but you want CI's thin crust with feta, peppercino, and grilled chicken. If that is the Mediterranean then I concur, it's the only item on the menu. Don't bother with anything else. So good. It even tastes healthy. It's not, but it tastes that way and I like to pretend.

That sounds decidedly like a non-pizza to me. They have another term for non-pizzas: flatbreads.

[hepcat]

I'll just pretend that the apostates here claiming that toppings other than those I listed are worthy don't exist and continue on with another topic.

Turns out there's Jet pizzas in this area. I'll need to try one this weekend. I had never heard of them before. But I do like me some pan cooked, peanut oil based pizza from time to time.

[stessier]

I am amused by this debate.

Truth (history) is written by the victors and there can be no doubt that Chicago style aficionados will die out well before their New York style brethren. Thus, history will show that Chicago style was not pizza no matter what people say today.

[stessier]

Turns out there's Jet pizzas in this area. I'll need to try one this weekend. I had never heard of them before. But I do like me some pan cooked, peanut oil based pizza from time to time.

You'll definitely like the edge crust then. The rest is just "meh", though (imo). And it's definitely not cheap.

[Isgrimnur]

So how long do you have to wait before [Chicago pizza is] cool/stable enough to handle?

Bueller?

[Jeff V]

I am amused by this debate.

Truth (history) is written by the victors and there can be no doubt that Chicago style aficionados will die out well before their New York style brethren. Thus, history will show that Chicago style was not pizza no matter what people say today.

As Lawbeef has reminded you many, many times, the most popular pizza in the city is not deep dish but thin crust, ala:



Note it is cut into manageable, hand-held squares with a crust that has integrity and does not flop.

[ImLawBoy]

So how long do you have to wait before [Chicago pizza is] cool/stable enough to handle?

Bueller?

Stability wise, properly prepared Chicago-style deep dish pizza is fine out of the oven. It probably behooves you to give it a resting period before cutting and serving so that the cheese stays where it's supposed to, but that should probably be 5-10 minutes (same as with a thinner pizza - if you slice it immediately out of the oven the cheese T1000s itself back together). It cools at a standard rate, so pick your tolerance.

Chicago-style deep dish is typically eaten with a fork and knife out of custom more than out of necessity. Maybe its us flyover rubes trying to be all classy like George Costanza with a Snickers bar?

I am amused by this debate.

Truth (history) is written by the victors and there can be no doubt that Chicago style aficionados will die out well before their New York style brethren. Thus, history will show that Chicago style was not pizza no matter what people say today.

As Lawbeef has reminded you many, many times, the most popular pizza in the city is not deep dish but thin crust, ala:



Note it is cut into manageable, hand-held squares with a crust that has integrity and does not flop.

Yeah, I've been calling the deep dish pizza here Chicago-style for convenience, but there's really Chicago-style deep dish and Chicago-style thin. As I've noted, the thin is really more of the everyday pie, while the deep dish is event pizza.

[ImLawBoy]

I am amused by this debate.

Truth (history) is written by the victors and there can be no doubt that Chicago style aficionados will die out well before their New York style brethren. Thus, history will show that Chicago style was not pizza no matter what people say today.

I'm sorry that you've run out plausible arguments for your position. I'll just take that as your concession.

[Kraken]

No anchovies. No pineapple. Otherwise I'm OK with just about anything.

My standard homemade pizza has:

-Pesto, sparingly applied directly to the crust.
-Sauce (duh) with garlic powder and Italian seasoning added.
-Onions, preferably white or vidalia. Onions go under the cheese to keep them from drying out.
-(optional) Banana peppers, in season, can replace onions.
-(optional) Fresh basil, in season. If using fresh basil, I skip the pesto.
-Mozzarella (generous) and parmesan (just a little). Sometimes I'll add other leftover cheeses just to use them up.
-Pepperoni on my half. Also acceptable: hot Italian sausage, bacon, ham, or hamburger.
-Kalamata olives. Sometimes these join the onions under the cheese to stay hydrated, sometimes I prefer them dried out. Black olives can substitute in a pinch.
-Mushrooms. Lots of mushrooms. Fresh, never canned. Canned mushrooms are just nasty.

The only ingredients that count as "toppings" are onions (or peppers), olives, and mushrooms, so I'm within the Rule of 3. Putting meat on my half stretches it to 3.5.

If I'm ordering a restaurant or pizzeria pie I'll mix things up a little. I don't make pizza at home during the summer because that 500-degree oven is hard to tolerate when it's 90 degrees out.

[AWS260]

Chicago-style deep dish is typically eaten with a fork and knife out of custom more than out of necessity. Maybe its us flyover rubes trying to be all classy like George Costanza with a Snickers bar?

I guess it depends on where you order from, but my hometown deep-dish (Uncle Pete's in Westmont) definitely requires utensils.



Looks like crap, tastes like heaven.

[ImLawBoy]

Yikes. That's definitely not Chicago-style deep dish. Just another variation of pizza!

[Remus West]

You need to try Cottage Inn's Mediteranean Chicken pizza. Its awesome.

I don't which chicken pizza is but you want CI's thin crust with feta, peppercino, and grilled chicken. If that is the Mediterranean then I concur, it's the only item on the menu. Don't bother with anything else. So good. It even tastes healthy. It's not, but it tastes that way and I like to pretend.

Deepdish. Never had the thin crust. Not a fan of thin crust. I don't even bother pretending its healthy. I'm the only one in my house that will eat it (gluten free wife and picky picky daughter) so I only get it when I'm home for dinner alone. Then I get a large and make myself fat eating the whole thing at one sitting.

[LordMortis]

Deepdish. Never had the thin crust. Not a fan of thin crust. I don't even bother pretending its healthy. I'm the only one in my house that will eat it (gluten free wife and picky picky daughter) so I only get it when I'm home for dinner alone. Then I get a large and make myself fat eating the whole thing at one sitting.

I eat Cottage Inn "deep dish" if it is in front of me but I would never order it. It's affront to all things deep dish. It's not a tasty rock like Chicago deep dish and it's not a greasy, crunch, chewy doughball like the deep dish I love so much. It's never ending dry bread with poor texture and even worse they put sesame seeds on by default which somehow make it worse. CI deep dish is the reason why some people feed crusts to their dogs. It rates 0.5 of three possible fat slob stained shirts. OtOH, when you get that same pizza thin crust, the sauce, toppings, and bread come together like magic on a thick hot cracker like bread (as JeffV says flat bread) and it's awesome. It scores a perfect three out of three fat slob stained shirts.

No comment on eating whole pizza's in a sitting.

[stessier]

I am amused by this debate.

Truth (history) is written by the victors and there can be no doubt that Chicago style aficionados will die out well before their New York style brethren. Thus, history will show that Chicago style was not pizza no matter what people say today.

I'm sorry that you've run out plausible arguments for your position. I'll just take that as your concession.

Not yet! I also found a legal argument online. It was amusing, but I lost it and can't search at the moment.

I'm sure you'll ignore it as well in your cholesterol induced stupor.

[hepcat]

Yikes. That's definitely not Chicago-style deep dish. Just another variation of pizza!

You're very generous to call that a pizza.

In other news, I feel I should start a thread dedicated to dispelling all this hatred towards the heavenly anchovy. Why does it have such a bad rap? It's a bit salty, but it works so well with the cheese and sauce of a pizza. I even keep a small tin of anchovies at the ready in my fridge for frozen pizzas. It doesn't hurt that the shelf life of the anchovy is somewhere around 35,000 years. I believe pure uranium has a shorter half life.

[AWS260]

Yikes. That's definitely not Chicago-style deep dish. Just another variation of pizza!

You're very generous to call that a pizza.

That is an old-timey Chicago deep-dish pizza. Uncle Pete's predates your newfangled "Gino's East" and "Lou Malnati's" by decades. The founder sold the Westmont branch to a Korean immigrant in the 1970s, and she's still manning the kitchen, with the same oven, serving the same menu today.

Using the same menu cover, too. It's very classy.

[LordMortis]

Why does it have such a bad rap?

It tastes horrible, smell worse, and contaminates everything in around it?

[Archinerd]

Things that if added, will cause me to snap and dispense justice with my two fists of hot retribution:

Anything else (including pineapple)

You are dead to me.

P.S. This means I'm keeping your Bea Arthur sleeping bag. I know you have others but this means you're down one backup.

[hepcat]

Yikes. That's definitely not Chicago-style deep dish. Just another variation of pizza!

You're very generous to call that a pizza.

That is an old-timey Chicago deep-dish pizza. Uncle Pete's predates your newfangled "Gino's East" and "Lou Malnati's" by decades. The founder sold the Westmont branch to a Korean immigrant in the 1970s, and she's still manning the kitchen, with the same oven, serving the same menu today.

Using the same menu cover, too. It's very classy.

It's like an R Crumb sketch.

[Remus West]

Deepdish. Never had the thin crust. Not a fan of thin crust. I don't even bother pretending its healthy. I'm the only one in my house that will eat it (gluten free wife and picky picky daughter) so I only get it when I'm home for dinner alone. Then I get a large and make myself fat eating the whole thing at one sitting.

I eat Cottage Inn "deep dish" if it is in front of me but I would never order it. It's affront to all things deep dish. It's not a tasty rock like Chicago deep dish and it's not a greasy, crunch, chewy doughball like the deep dish I love so much. It's never ending dry bread with poor texture and even worse they put sesame seeds on by default which somehow make it worse. CI deep dish is the reason why some people feed crusts to their dogs. It rates 0.5 of three possible fat slob stained shirts. OtOH, when you get that same pizza thin crust, the sauce, toppings, and bread come together like magic on a thick hot cracker like bread (as JeffV says flat bread) and it's awesome. It scores a perfect three out of three fat slob stained shirts.

No comment on eating whole pizza's in a sitting.

I've never had one of their deep dish other than the Chicken Med but it is always chewy goodness. Soft middle dough with just the right crunch on the edge. Greasiness is likely lower due to not being heavy heavy meat but still full of cheese and chew.

[Jeff V]

Yikes. That's definitely not Chicago-style deep dish. Just another variation of pizza!

You're very generous to call that a pizza.

In other news, I feel I should start a thread dedicated to dispelling all this hatred towards the heavenly anchovy. Why does it have such a bad rap? It's a bit salty, but it works so well with the cheese and sauce of a pizza. I even keep a small tin of anchovies at the ready in my fridge for frozen pizzas. It doesn't hurt that the shelf life of the anchovy is somewhere around 35,000 years. I believe pure uranium has a shorter half life.

Why do you refrigerate them? The store doesn't.

I don't mind anchovies on pizza, but I don't go out of my way to order it, either. I don't need my pizza to be more salty. I don't order garlic either because I don't need it more garlicky. I do love anchovies on Greek salad though, and will often put down a whole tin of them (12.7 billion milligrams of salt and all).

[LordMortis]

This is not square deep dish. That is just a lot of bread. A lot of bread. Fine enough, especially if you don't east the crust or if you have something to make the crusts into a sandwitch or butter or ranch or something but I should never ever ever ever consider not eating the crust. The crust should at its best is like a mini desert treat in slice.



Now when crust is not puffy on the outside and merges in to cheese? Ohhhhhhhh..... That's where rubber meats the road and pizza leaves state of becoming and you hit culinary nirvana.

[Remus West]

That is a horrible picture of CI pizza. Mine never look like that. Maybe someday we will both have the time and energy to get together for gaming and I will buy a Chichen Med pizza and allow you a slice. Or I'll just eat the whole thing in front of you and belch a lot.

[LordMortis]

That is a horrible picture of CI pizza. Mine never look like that. Maybe someday we will both have the time and energy to get together for gaming and I will buy a Chichen Med pizza and allow you a slice. Or I'll just eat the whole thing in front of you and belch a lot.

You'll get your "deep dish" (and that picture is very much what I see from CI only its seems to be missing those gawdauful sesame seeds, so it's actually better). I'll get my thin and we'll both be happy. I'll just be right and happy and you'll just be wrong and happy.

[Remus West]

That is a horrible picture of CI pizza. Mine never look like that. Maybe someday we will both have the time and energy to get together for gaming and I will buy a Chichen Med pizza and allow you a slice. Or I'll just eat the whole thing in front of you and belch a lot.

You'll get your "deep dish" (and that picture is very much what I see from CI only its seems to be missing those gawdauful sesame seeds, so it's actually better). I'll get my thin and we'll both be happy. I'll just be right and happy and you'll just be wrong and happy.

You won't be happy. The chicken Med also gives me gas.

[hepcat]

I hear a challenge!

[gbasden]

You black olive lovers should go to hell.

Though funny, I didn't actually say I don't like black olives.

It's quoted, so you must have said it. And you are absolutely correct. Anyone that would foul pizza or casserole with little black death bombs is doing themselves no favor.

Before I decide to agree with you or not, I'd like to know your stance on pineapple.

It's not my first choice, but I'm perfectly happy with it as a topping. I tend to favor onions or peppers if I'm ordering for just me.

[Cylus Maxii]

It's important because 99% of the world knows Chicago style pizza as pizza. Jon Stewart having a misguided riff that some hipsters thought was a funny way to poke at us rubes in the flyover states isn't a compelling reason to change the nomenclature used for Chicago style pizza for ~75 years. It still has the same basic components as other styles of pizza, just assembled a bit differently (just as other styles of pizza also have various methods of assembly).

Specious - if this was true then tacos and tostadas would be the same food. Baked ziti would be the same food as a plate full of ziti that had been sauced and had cheese sprinkled on it. I believe that the assembly and cooking method make a huge difference in what the final food product is called.

[hentzau]

Had a delightful thin crust pizza at Moretti's last night, and I blame this thread for that. I was going to go to Superdawg for a...well, a Superdawg to help support a local school, but the idea of pizza soon outweighed it.

We went with a pretty generic sausage, because my family is boring.

[ImLawBoy]

It's important because 99% of the world knows Chicago style pizza as pizza. Jon Stewart having a misguided riff that some hipsters thought was a funny way to poke at us rubes in the flyover states isn't a compelling reason to change the nomenclature used for Chicago style pizza for ~75 years. It still has the same basic components as other styles of pizza, just assembled a bit differently (just as other styles of pizza also have various methods of assembly).

Specious - if this was true then tacos and tostadas would be the same food. Baked ziti would be the same food as a plate full of ziti that had been sauced and had cheese sprinkled on it. I believe that the assembly and cooking method make a huge difference in what the final food product is called.

Sure they do. For both types of pizza at issue here (simplifying to NY style and Chicago style deep dish pizza), you've got a crust layer that is topped with sauce, cheese, and some level of meat and/or vegetable. They're then baked in an oven. We're talking the difference between a soft shelled taco and a hard shelled taco here, not the difference between a taco and a tostada.

[edit]And in your ziti example, they're both still ziti. One is baked ziti, and one is sauced ziti. Just like one is NY style pizza, and one is Chicago style deep dish pizza.[/edit]

[Cylus Maxii]

I'm just poking the bear here. TBH, I have a rather comprehensive book about the history of pizza and its many forms, including Chicago style - American Pie. The same author wrote the definitive bread baking book, The Bread Baker's Apprentice. I highly recommend both. Please use the OO link if you order them.

FWIW - my favorite pizza variant is referred to as Pizza Napolitano. Its the original type that eventually evolved into NY style, but it has a crisper crust. I like to make it on a pizza stone in my Big Green Egg. Its been a few years since I've done that since my daughter is a manager at a decent pizza place near by. I guess I have a project for this weekend..