The Former Trump Presidency Thread

[Alefroth]

God i wish I had an alternate universe machine that would show me the fallout if Obama had decided to cozy up to Communists.

Good example of how little it took to flip your lid when it comes to non-Trump relations with Russia.

[Alefroth]

I can't actually criticize Trump for something he did that I think is a huge mistake, so I'll just mention other people who did things I think were a huge mistake

Can't play that game today. I think I got burnt out playing it with the other side yesterday.

I'll try.

[Holman]

Oh let's watch.

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/ ... 9860325376

link

"I have been Russia's worst nightmare. [...] Russia should be in this meeting! Why are we having a meeting without Russia being in the meeting?"

[Alefroth]

"We have a world to run..."

Pretty much sums it up.

[LordMortis]

Oh let's watch.

https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/ ... 9860325376

link

"I have been Russia's worst nightmare. [...] Russia should be in this meeting! Why are we having a meeting without Russia being in the meeting?"

How is it humanly possible to actually sound better in the transcript? Actually hearing him say it, he sounds a kindergartner on Real People interviewed Skip Stepehenson about Geopolitics.

Youtube "Children telling stories" and just start watching.

[Holman]

How is it humanly possible to actually sound better in the transcript? Actually hearing him say it, he sounds Skip Stepehenson interviewing a kindergartner on Real People about Geopolitics.

Every time Trump praises Russia you can hear the earnestness in his voice. He's serious. He wants to be sure Vlad hears it.

OTOH, when he reads a teleprompter speech praising American values or our allies or anything decent, he sounds like a listless grade-schooler going through the motions because he knows he has to.

[$iljanus]

How is it humanly possible to actually sound better in the transcript? Actually hearing him say it, he sounds Skip Stepehenson interviewing a kindergartner on Real People about Geopolitics.

Every time Trump praises Russia you can hear the earnestness in his voice. He's serious. He wants to be sure Vlad hears it.

OTOH, when he reads a teleprompter speech praising American values or our allies or anything decent, he sounds like a listless grade-schooler going through the motions because he knows he has to.

Speaking about democracy does not come naturally to the Donald. Of course he identifies with dictators and strong men. It reminds him of the world of business and having total control. If only he didn't have that pesky Constitution shackling him. Who knows what he could accomplish...

[Rip]

If I read Rip's message right, he believes the problem with the "reset" was that it failed and that Russia and the U.S. returned to a pre-reset adversarial stance, with us criticizing Russia for rights violations and its support of the butcher Assad and Puting back to badmouthing the U.S.

So where does that leave us now? Rip presumably prefers Trump's approach to HRC's. Obviously we don't see Putin and Trump criticizing each other... and that's the win?

Russia has gotten worse and has become emboldened, and Trump is doing everything he can to reward them for it. In the meantime Trump has played into Putin's hands by weakening our alliances and clearing space for him and parties he supports to make gains in Europe. Is THAT the win?

It's a win for someone, certainly...

No my opinion is that we should be whipping on Russia's ass if required. If they got in the way in Syria I wouldn't hesitate to turn them to ash just like we did with the Iranians there. I would make life miserable for them and make it financially impossible for them to maintain a military strong enough to do anything about it.

Neither Obama, HRC, Trump or hardly anyone else would be as adversarial with Russia as I would like.

[Rip]

The reset button photo was 2009, so there was three years before Putin tanked it once he got back to the presidency.

Don't fool yourself he was never out of power, it was all a long-con.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la- ... story.html

[Rip]

I was the one who wanted to go after Russia full force after the Crimea invasion. All I saw from you guys was shrugs and comments about how we couldn't really do much.

If we couldn't do much about them invading and annexing territories I fail to see what we could do to properly punish them for what they are doing now.

In fact I would submit that much of what they did as far as election interference was a direct result of largely getting a pass for what should have been considered an act of war.

Not surprisingly we still aren't really doing anything that causes them the slightest bit of fear. Just a lot of big talk with nothing to back it up.

So obviously the solution is the elect a Russian sympathizer to try to undermine the western alliance and roll back the sanctions we put in place after they annexed Crimea? Rip that doesn't even make any sense and you know your grasping at straws. Pretend it's Obama's fault all you want, but Obama isn't the one who was aided by Russia every step of his election, and Obama isn't the one in office now trying to *reward* Russia for annexing Crimea.

Surely there must be a tiny shred of the old Republican that you used to be that's screaming inside because it's clear now your champion sold our country out, right?

Most of them(POTUS candidates) were/are quasi sympathizers/appeasers. A lot of bitching but absolutely zero action with any teeth. Show me a candidate that wants to kick Russia in the teeth literally and they will have my vote.

[Holman]

The reset button photo was 2009, so there was three years before Putin tanked it once he got back to the presidency.

Don't fool yourself he was never out of power, it was all a long-con.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la- ... story.html

Yes. But we and the experts perceived a chance for reform in 2009 if carrots and sticks were aligned. It might even have been possible.

What does Trump perceive now? As a Trump supporter, how do you explain that Trump is giving Putin *everything* he wants at no cost to him and at an absurdly high cost to the liberal democratic world?

[Rip]

cause having photo ops with a 'reset button' are the same as what Trump is seemingly guilty of, if you can read between the lines of each of Trump's panicked "Phoney Russia Witch Hunt Hoax" tweets and Giuliani's frantic flailing boasts.

First the last thing you want to do is start a discussion of reading between the lines. That is the epitome of how fake news is created.

Second, it was hardly just a photo op.

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/th ... fact-sheet

Even HRC realized it was blowing up in their faces.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 0af3cc88b9

For Clinton, the rhetoric reflects genuine disappointment and frustration from a tumultuous term as secretary of state during which cooperation between Moscow and Washington briefly soared, only to come crashing to Earth after Putin’s reelection as president in 2012 following a four-year hiatus, according to current and former U.S. officials involved in Russian policymaking at the time. Clinton, who began her tenure by famously offering a “reset” of Russian relations, would end it by publicly blasting Putin’s government on issues including alleged vote-rigging in Russia and Putin’s support for Syria’s authoritarian president, Bashar al-Assad.

Putin would fire back with repeated attacks against her, ­often injecting an unusually personal tone into the growing diplomatic rift. The exchanges helped cement an adversarial view of Clinton on the Russian side that may explain, more than any other single factor, the apparent efforts by Russian operatives to influence the election by hacking email accounts of senior Clinton staff members, longtime Kremlin observers say.

Didn’t you take your ball and go home?

No I simply tired of listening to the same tired old anti-Trump rhetoric and took a break for more important things. I am busy working on a special project which before you ask I can neither confirm nor deny has anything to do with the NK summit.

The work I am doing has limited speed and availability of internet and I decided you guys could use a breather before you have to deal with my gloating about the blue wave being nothing more than a weak splash from a very shallow puddle.

[em2nought]

[Rip]

The reset button photo was 2009, so there was three years before Putin tanked it once he got back to the presidency.

Don't fool yourself he was never out of power, it was all a long-con.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la- ... story.html

Yes. But we and the experts perceived a chance for reform in 2009 if carrots and sticks were aligned. It might even have been possible.

What does Trump perceive now? As a Trump supporter, how do you explain that Trump is giving Putin *everything* he wants at no cost to him and at an absurdly high cost to the liberal democratic world?

Trump doesn't have the power to give Putin dick that matters. It is just hot air like much of what he says. There is Zero support for reduction in the adversarial relationships as it stands and without that it goes nowhere. Unfortunately there isn't much support for doing anything to confront the Russians in any meaningful manner either, so it appears status-quo is about the best we have the stomach to force. Maybe when Trump gets to his third or fourth term that will change. If anything seeing people come around to my view on Russia is another thing I can ironically thank Trump for.

If HRC had won they would have done zilch against Russia as well and people wouldn't have adopted such an anti-Russia stance as they have because the effort would have been recognized as the nothingburger it really is as far as actually controlling elections. Give me a Lieberman like military minded Democrat who would immediately confront Russia in a Reagan like fashion and I will happily vote for them.

[Holman]

Show me a candidate that wants to kick Russia in the teeth literally and they will have my vote.

1) Even if you somehow reject the evidence of collusion, Trump openly ignored warnings and encouraged Russian interference;
2) Trump tried to eliminate sanctions on Russia and still keeps floating the possibility;
3) Trump is straining the traditional Western alliance that stands between Putin and influence in Europe and elsewhere;
4) Trump has done everything he can do as president to ignore the Russian threat to our democratic processes;
5) Trump just proposed returning Russia to the G-7, rewarding the very aggression that caused their expulsion;
6) HRC wouldn't have done any of this, and you know it. You know it.

[Rip]

Show me a candidate that wants to kick Russia in the teeth literally and they will have my vote.

1) Even if you somehow reject the evidence of collusion, Trump openly ignored warnings and encouraged Russian interference;
2) Trump tried to eliminate sanctions on Russia and still keeps floating the possibility;
3) Trump is straining the traditional Western alliance that stands between Putin and influence in Europe and elsewhere;
4) Trump has done everything he can do as president to ignore the Russian threat to our democratic processes;
5) Trump just proposed returning Russia to the G-7, rewarding the very aggression that caused their expulsion;
6) HRC wouldn't have done any of this, and you know it. You know it.

None of that would have mattered an iota to Putin/Russia. I could care less what Trump says/proposes. I care about what he is actually able to do, which is zilch. Fuck Trump. I say again give someone who will actually DO anything substantive that will sway the conduct of Putin/Russia and I am on board, same boat as Iran. Either piss or get off the pot and take the fight to them, diplomatic pussyfooting is a joke to these guys. They deal in blood and bullets anything else is just playing the game.

[Holman]

None of it matters? Then why does that list dovetail so *completely* with what every foreign policy expert understands to be Putin's most important goals?

[Zarathud]

I say again give someone who will actually DO anything substantive that will sway the conduct of Putin/Russia and I am on board, same boat as Iran. Either piss or get off the pot and take the fight to them, diplomatic pussyfooting is a joke to these guys. They deal in blood and bullets anything else is just playing the game.

Then why let Putin have his puppet? Take Trump away.

Trump not taking the fight to Russia, but even worse Trump is acting as a Russian proxy fighting their political wars against Western Europe.

Diplomatic pussyfooting is a lot better than diplomatic pussy grabbing on Russia's behalf.

Don't let Putin play his game turning the American President into a joke. At this point ANY DEMOCRAT is going to take more action than Trump. Get on board.

[GreenGoo]

So...we're back to this are we?

[Rip]

I say again give someone who will actually DO anything substantive that will sway the conduct of Putin/Russia and I am on board, same boat as Iran. Either piss or get off the pot and take the fight to them, diplomatic pussyfooting is a joke to these guys. They deal in blood and bullets anything else is just playing the game.

Then why let Putin have his puppet? Take Trump away.

Trump not taking the fight to Russia, but even worse Trump is acting as a Russian proxy fighting their political wars against Western Europe.

Diplomatic pussyfooting is a lot better than diplomatic pussy grabbing on Russia's behalf.

Don't let Putin play his game turning the American President into a joke. At this point ANY DEMOCRAT is going to take more action than Trump. Get on board.

I'm not for any action. You either go after them literally or what you do doesn't matter and I look to other things to make my decision. Either way what I will do with my vote as far as POTUS goes won't matter till 2020. We will see what is being proposed and who the choices are in late 2019. Till then the discussion is pointless. We are were we are and all that matters is what we do now. Thus I am more interested in what goes on during Trump's presidency which is why I am in that thread instead of one entitled "second guessing history, why oh why did we elect Trump".

Speaking of being where we are, I happen to be reading Robert Gates book Duty. Such a great read. I had low expectations but his writing is very good and he really conveys what a gut wrenching job it must be for someone who takes the vast responsibility of the job to heart. I can't imagine what it must be like to look upon a mangled and burned soldier and his family after you had just handed them the college diploma at Texas A&M a few short years before.

Not surprised Obama kept him on and surprised he hasn't gotten more recognition for just what a tremendous job he did in making sure the surge happened and remained surged for long enough to be able to do the job when the congress obviously wanting to pull guys out and not add more. Quite the political dance and he was just the guy to do it.

I'd love to see him and Condi run together!

[GreenGoo]

In order to better understand "go after them literally", can someone explain what going after them "figuratively" would entail?

[Scoop20906]

So...we're back to this are we?

Yep, there goes our record.

[Holman]

Till then the discussion is pointless. We are were we are and all that matters is what we do now. Thus I am more interested in what goes on during Trump's presidency which is why I am in that thread instead of one entitled "second guessing history, why oh why did we elect Trump".

You're saying you... literally... don't... care... if Trump sought and accepted Russia's election help and is helping Putin achieve his goals in a quid pro quo.

[Fitzy]

In order to better understand "go after them literally", can someone explain what going after them "figuratively" would entail?

been Russia's worst nightmare

[Holman]

In order to better understand "go after them literally", can someone explain what going after them "figuratively" would entail?

been Russia's worst nightmare

[Rip]

In order to better understand "go after them literally", can someone explain what going after them "figuratively" would entail?

Since I am reading his book, I will point to Robert Gates to define it.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/robert-gat ... 1395780813

In part:

Western response to Putin’s land grab in Crimea has so far been “anemic.” Seizing the assets of a few of Putin’s oligarch cronies and restricting their travel will do little to change the overall game plan. According to Gates, the message now seems to be that if Russia does not move troops into eastern Ukraine, Putin’s seizure of Crimea will stand. If this comes to pass, Gates expects Putin to continue to threaten and dominate other neighboring states on an opportunistic basis and with utter ruthlessness.

There is more to say on the subject in the article. IMHO his approach is the minimum we must do if we hope to thwart his agenda.

[Skinypupy]

I think we should all be applauding Rip’s strong, principled stand here. He wants a strong leader who is willing to push back on Russia, kick them in the teeth, and turn them to ash for their behavior.

But since he can’t have that, he’ll fully support those who are literally doing the exact opposite. Those who are holding the door wide open and letting Russia do whatever the hell they want, up to and including destroying our own governmental systems and election processes.

Such a profile in courage!

[Holman]

I think we should all be applauding Rip’s strong, principled stand here. He wants a strong leader who is willing to push back on Russia, kick them in the teeth, and turn them to ash for their behavior.

But since he can’t have that, he’ll fully support those who are literally doing the exact opposite. Those who are holding the door wide open and letting Russia do whatever the hell they want, up to and including destroying our own governmental systems and election processes.

This is why I don't think Rip is trolling us. He's merely exhibiting the mental gymnastics necessary for a right-winger to call Obama and HRC weak on Putin while still supporting Trump as he gives Putin everything he wants.

The natural end-point for this is to finally declare that Putin is good and isn't our enemy: he's a staunch ally in the fight against Islam and the moral decay of the West and decadent inclusivity and race mixing and etc. So far only the alt-right is prepared to go that far, but you can bet Trump and his ilk will be pushing that line as soon as its politically possible. A huge portion of Republicans will breathe a sigh of relief to be right there with him.

[hepcat]

If Putin claims to be a democrat, Rip will hate him again.

[LordMortis]

Trump doesn't have the power to give Putin dick that matters.

Insider trading to the richest man in the world?

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/03/5-ways- ... ility.html

Hands off in Ukraine?

https://www.unian.info/politics/1014640 ... raine.html

Unstable dollar vs stabliizing ruble that was in free fall?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ic-slowing
https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/currency

100 years of (largely earned) western good will toward the US <poof>

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/ ... e-contenti

Perhaps we are just blind because we don't hate Russian demagoguery as much as you do? *shrug*.

What's odd, is in theory, I want the US to back off of the Global Bully, um interest protector, um leader, role. It's expensive and it's not rewarding. But not this way. Not where we hand the keys to someone who hands the keys to a brutal crime lord and not so we can just hand money to multinationals in a way that agreeable to presidential whims of the moment.

[Pyperkub]

Show me a candidate that wants to kick Russia in the teeth literally and they will have my vote.

1) Even if you somehow reject the evidence of collusion, Trump openly ignored warnings and encouraged Russian interference;
2) Trump tried to eliminate sanctions on Russia and still keeps floating the possibility;
3) Trump is straining the traditional Western alliance that stands between Putin and influence in Europe and elsewhere;
4) Trump has done everything he can do as president to ignore the Russian threat to our democratic processes;
5) Trump just proposed returning Russia to the G-7, rewarding the very aggression that caused their expulsion;
6) HRC wouldn't have done any of this, and you know it. You know it.

None of that would have mattered an iota to Putin/Russia. I could care less what Trump says/proposes. I care about what he is actually able to do, which is zilch. Fuck Trump. I say again give someone who will actually DO anything substantive that will sway the conduct of Putin/Russia and I am on board, same boat as Iran. Either piss or get off the pot and take the fight to them, diplomatic pussyfooting is a joke to these guys. They deal in blood and bullets anything else is just playing the game.

Zilch???

Have you noticed the trade war he was able to single handedly start? Yeah, the one which tries to dick over as many of our allies as possible, while he cuts deals with China?

[GreenGoo]

Rip, I can't quite bring myself to tell you to go away again, but in less than so many words, go away again. Because if this bullshit is what you thought returning to share with us was worth it to you, both you and us are better served by you finding a nice drumpf'ish board to post on so others can nod sagely at your innsightfulness, and not roll their eyes at your gibberish.

Seriously, geezus. As was explained to you when Crimea was annexed, the west is NOT going to war with Russia over it. I don't give two shits how much you're jonesing for a bloodbath, Crimea is not worth a full war the likes of which the US has not seen since...when? North Korea? And if, by some stretch of the imagination Putin backs down and gives up Crimea, he will simply take it again when the west withdraws, which it would have to do at some point.

You are out of your god damn mind about getting into a shooting war with Russia over 2 million people, some decent percentage of which WANT to be russian again. Particularly for the Ukraine, which has learned all it knows about corruption from good Americans like Manafort.

And you want the US to get into a shooting war with Russia while you have a sock puppet for a president? In a national crisis like going to war with russia, he's worse than useless. He's in bed with Putin. He JUST said that Russia should be allowed back into the G7(8). This is the guy who is going to take on Putin?

Bless.

You.

[GreenGoo]

What's odd, is in theory, I want the US to back off of the Global Bully, um interest protector, um leader, role. It's expensive and it's not rewarding.

It is rewarding though. In a million different ways. That largely earned good will comes in part from take the lead in many global activities, and doing so with integrity, honesty and sincerity. Well, as much as is possible on the geopolitical stage anyway.

If you think you can sit quietly minding your business while being good neighbours with your allies and still get all the benefits of being a world leader, then you seem to be failing to connect the dots between the two.

There are many reasons why the US decided to become a leader on the world stage. It's because it wanted to have a strong say in what goes on in the world.

What possible benefits could come from that?

[LordMortis]

It is rewarding though. In a million different ways. That largely earned good will comes in part from take the lead in many global activities, and doing so with integrity, honesty and sincerity. Well, as much as is possible on the geopolitical stage anyway.

If you think you can sit quietly minding your business while being good neighbours with your allies and still get all the benefits of being a world leader, then you seem to be failing to connect the dots between the two.

There are many reasons why the US decided to become a leader on the world stage. It's because it wanted to have a strong say in what goes on in the world.

What possible benefits could come from that?

I think it's our job to sit at the table. I don't think it's our job and also presumptuous of us sometimes to the point of sickening to control the table. I don't expect all of the benefits of being "a world leader", but nor do I want to cash in all of our chips in exchange for the deal making from buffoon we elected to office.

[Holman]

If we don't lead (ideally as first in a coalition), someone else will, and right now the only alternative is China. I'm not terribly optimistic about the world this China would make.

Europe can't take our place because you can't lead by committee. Failing that, it's a return to squabbling regional powers and open warfare, and that's the end of everything forever.

It's the U.S. or nobody, and that's more of why Trump is such a disaster.

[Kraken]

The US designed and built the table from the wreckage of WW2 and has spend most of the decades since then rounding up guests and imposing our manners on them. We can't walk away because some of them want a say in the menu now...and we definitely can't flip it over and go sit at the children's table instead.

...or can we?

Spoiler:

[Unagi]

He only looks over dressed, that is the only thing that makes him stand out there.

[Rip]

Show me a candidate that wants to kick Russia in the teeth literally and they will have my vote.

1) Even if you somehow reject the evidence of collusion, Trump openly ignored warnings and encouraged Russian interference;
2) Trump tried to eliminate sanctions on Russia and still keeps floating the possibility;
3) Trump is straining the traditional Western alliance that stands between Putin and influence in Europe and elsewhere;
4) Trump has done everything he can do as president to ignore the Russian threat to our democratic processes;
5) Trump just proposed returning Russia to the G-7, rewarding the very aggression that caused their expulsion;
6) HRC wouldn't have done any of this, and you know it. You know it.

None of that would have mattered an iota to Putin/Russia. I could care less what Trump says/proposes. I care about what he is actually able to do, which is zilch. Fuck Trump. I say again give someone who will actually DO anything substantive that will sway the conduct of Putin/Russia and I am on board, same boat as Iran. Either piss or get off the pot and take the fight to them, diplomatic pussyfooting is a joke to these guys. They deal in blood and bullets anything else is just playing the game.

Zilch???

Have you noticed the trade war he was able to single handedly start? Yeah, the one which tries to dick over as many of our allies as possible, while he cuts deals with China?

The allies need to learn to carry their load. Many(Italy/Germany/France/Spain) have drug their feet in the afghan war and continue to fail to meet their NATO obligations with regards to defense spending. THEY have been the ones to stand in the way of more confrontive actions against Putin because they get weak in the knees anytime he looks at them cross-eyed. When they start actually getting skin in the game they can bitch.

Now those that are largely meeting their commitments(UK, Canada, Denmark, Australia, Estonia, and Romania) should get extra consideration on trade matters.

Either way there is a mountain of stuff Trump does I don't agree with. I'm happy to see some Republicans stand in his way or criticize him on them. I would rather the party didn't agree lock step on everything. A little dissension is healthy.

[Rip]

Rip, I can't quite bring myself to tell you to go away again, but in less than so many words, go away again. Because if this bullshit is what you thought returning to share with us was worth it to you, both you and us are better served by you finding a nice drumpf'ish board to post on so others can nod sagely at your innsightfulness, and not roll their eyes at your gibberish.

Seriously, geezus. As was explained to you when Crimea was annexed, the west is NOT going to war with Russia over it. I don't give two shits how much you're jonesing for a bloodbath, Crimea is not worth a full war the likes of which the US has not seen since...when? North Korea? And if, by some stretch of the imagination Putin backs down and gives up Crimea, he will simply take it again when the west withdraws, which it would have to do at some point.

You are out of your god damn mind about getting into a shooting war with Russia over 2 million people, some decent percentage of which WANT to be russian again. Particularly for the Ukraine, which has learned all it knows about corruption from good Americans like Manafort.

And you want the US to get into a shooting war with Russia while you have a sock puppet for a president? In a national crisis like going to war with russia, he's worse than useless. He's in bed with Putin. He JUST said that Russia should be allowed back into the G7(8). This is the guy who is going to take on Putin?

Bless.

You.

Go away yourself. I'm not some weak kneed speaker at the local university that runs because you feel you need to be protected from what I say. Don't like what I have to say, you know where the door is!

We will shed blood as a result of Putin whether we like the idea or not. The only question is when and how much and whether it will be Russian blood or someone we allow to proxy the fight for him (Syria/Iran etc.). Believe it or don't I don't really care. I'm pretty sure I will be here to point to it when it happens. Just like I said in the Crimea discussion that if we didn't do more he would get more aggressive. I reiterate that point, it will get worse in relation to Russian aggression before it get better if it even will or if direct confrontation will happen. Putin doesn't take Trump seriously nor would he have taken Clinton seriously, nor will he take whoever the next POTUS is unless something really damaging to him is likely to happen if he doesn't back off.

If you are looking for a Hitler, Putin is your man and he is much more politically savvy.

[Smoove_B]

He really is a one trick pony, eh?

President Donald Trump praised Giuseppe Conte on Saturday and announced Italy’s new Prime Minister would soon be joining him at the White House.

"Just met the new Prime Minister of Italy, @GiuseppeConteIT, a really great guy. He will be honored in Washington, at the @WhiteHouse, shortly. He will do a great job – the people of Italy got it right!"

...

Trump’s tweet comes after Conte tweeted out his agreement with Trump that Russia should be re-admitted to the now G7.