The Former Trump Presidency Thread

[hepcat]

So pretty much anyone who had any chance of getting the nomination was doomed to be ridiculed here. Thanks for helping me make my point!

No, two would have been (and have been) ridiculed for being shitty human beings. Anyone else we would just complain about their policies.

[Rip]

Speaking of what a non-starter Jeb! was he spent $130M to get less than 1% of the vote. It comes out to $453.45 per vote.

Christ give me $130M and I could get more than 1%.

[hepcat]

Not on OO.

[raydude]

Speaking of what a non-starter Jeb! was he spent $130M to get less than 1% of the vote. It comes out to $453.45 per vote.

Christ give me $130M and I could get more than 1%.

Until the "no medical insurance worked for me, it should work for all America" issue came out.

[Rip]

So pretty much anyone who had any chance of getting the nomination was doomed to be ridiculed here. Thanks for helping me make my point!

No, two would have been (and have been) ridiculed for being shitty human beings. Anyone else we would just complain about their policies.

Right, just those two.

[Unagi]

Honestly, (and it's what you are saying)

The only question here is why does RIP defend Trump (and then offer after months of it that he actually doesn't care much about Trump)… because as we all (and the world) is saying: Trump is a whole new thing and not just the pendulum swing... not even a heavy swing - he's a con.... why doesn't RIP admit it. Why can't he. What's he got so invested. Stiggin it? that's my guess.

I can't stand the guy. I am defending the Republican agenda, despite him. I have long said my perfect POTUS would be Condi Rice and having read half his book now I would tack Robert Gates on as VP. He would be the perfect expediter to her well strategized policy. Fuck Trump! If I could magically cause him to keel over so Pence could take over without damaging the party I would do it without a moment's thought.

Wow, so you are a Pence GUY !? Hate gays much?

[Unagi]

You back someone with an easily verified history of calling people names and then you try to call others out for doing the same?

Bush never got this level of vitriol from folks around here. Simply because he didn’t do the things Trump does regularly. As for your intimations that republican leaders are persecuted unfairly by the left while dem leaders are given a pass... Breitbart, Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, kooks who thought Obama was a secret Muslim trying to destroy us (you gave me that one, thanks)..should I go on?

Stop playing the victim card.

I don't control those people, and you are totally wrong about Bush vitriol around here. Bush got far more vitriol here than Obama did and not a great deal less than Trump is getting here, although I will grant that he got less than Trump.....barely.

Obama was just a much better president than Bush. And you're so wrong about what people felt about Bush compared to seeing a Russian puppet in the WH. Your 'anti Putin' claim is BS, cause if you had that you would be giving a shit about what's obvious to most.

[hepcat]

So pretty much anyone who had any chance of getting the nomination was doomed to be ridiculed here. Thanks for helping me make my point!

No, two would have been (and have been) ridiculed for being shitty human beings. Anyone else we would just complain about their policies.

Right, just those two.

You're right, of course. No one on the right has ever ridiculed a Dem president or any other leader. You folks are friggin' paragons of pure good. I bow to your graciousness and hope that you lead us into a bright new future of good will and compassion.

Thank you, Rip. You have shown me the way.

I don't control those people, and you are totally wrong about Bush vitriol around here. Bush got far more vitriol here than Obama did and not a great deal less than Trump is getting here, although I will grant that he got less than Trump.....barely.

You're hanging out on a predominantly liberal forum bitching that it's a predominantly liberal forum.

I never said Bush received less ridicule than Obama here. I was responding to your seeming belief that Dems are far more abusive to GOP leaders in general. Something that's demonstrably false. Your "boo hoo, we're so put upon" line is getting old. When Obama was in office, he was the antichrist to your lot. Hell, Ted Nugent wanted to shoot him. So rip up your victim card.

[Holman]

So pretty much anyone who had any chance of getting the nomination was doomed to be ridiculed here. Thanks for helping me make my point!

There are many modes and levels of ridicule. We're a creative group.

But, yes, anyone facilitating the GOP's current burn-it-all-down-and-call-it-reform agenda is going to deserve contempt.

[Moliere]

https://twitter.com/NumbersMuncher/stat ... 7134352385

WWJD? MAGA!

[Skinypupy]

I’d be interested to see where that data comes from.

Evangelicals doesn’t surprise me at all, as they are the pinnacle of tribal behavior. The movement in the “all Americans” category is far more concerning (44 to 61, if I’m reading that correctly).

[Rip]

Honestly, (and it's what you are saying)

The only question here is why does RIP defend Trump (and then offer after months of it that he actually doesn't care much about Trump)… because as we all (and the world) is saying: Trump is a whole new thing and not just the pendulum swing... not even a heavy swing - he's a con.... why doesn't RIP admit it. Why can't he. What's he got so invested. Stiggin it? that's my guess.

I can't stand the guy. I am defending the Republican agenda, despite him. I have long said my perfect POTUS would be Condi Rice and having read half his book now I would tack Robert Gates on as VP. He would be the perfect expediter to her well strategized policy. Fuck Trump! If I could magically cause him to keel over so Pence could take over without damaging the party I would do it without a moment's thought.

Wow, so you are a Pence GUY !? Hate gays much?

No, I just think Pence would be an improvement over Trump.

That said I guess we can add Pence to the Trump/Cruz list of people that would be called vicious names here. So that is three. I am sure by election time it will be up to double digits.

[Rip]

You back someone with an easily verified history of calling people names and then you try to call others out for doing the same?

Bush never got this level of vitriol from folks around here. Simply because he didn’t do the things Trump does regularly. As for your intimations that republican leaders are persecuted unfairly by the left while dem leaders are given a pass... Breitbart, Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, kooks who thought Obama was a secret Muslim trying to destroy us (you gave me that one, thanks)..should I go on?

Stop playing the victim card.

I don't control those people, and you are totally wrong about Bush vitriol around here. Bush got far more vitriol here than Obama did and not a great deal less than Trump is getting here, although I will grant that he got less than Trump.....barely.

Obama was just a much better president than Bush. And you're so wrong about what people felt about Bush compared to seeing a Russian puppet in the WH. Your 'anti Putin' claim is BS, cause if you had that you would be giving a shit about what's obvious to most.

I'm simply not convinced there is a Russian puppet. When he goes beyond a Russian "reset" then we can talk. Until then he has done nothing beyond what numerous Presidents who have not been called puppets have done with regards to Russia. It isn't as though Russia became belligerent overnight, they are who they have always been since WW2.

[Unagi]

No, I just think Pence would be an improvement over Trump.
That said I guess we can add Pence to the Trump/Cruz list of people that would be called vicious names here. So that is three. I am sure by election time it will be up to double digits.

No, you said that Pence wouldn't damage the party. And that is telling.

oh, and feel free to add Mitch to that list.

Still, it's not an endless list.

[Unagi]

I'm simply not convinced there is a Russian puppet. When he goes beyond a Russian "reset" then we can talk. Until then he has done nothing beyond what numerous Presidents who have not been called puppets have done with regards to Russia.

Wow. None of the evidence and statements he's making have you thinking otherwise.

That's hard to take seriously.

[Rip]

So pretty much anyone who had any chance of getting the nomination was doomed to be ridiculed here. Thanks for helping me make my point!

No, two would have been (and have been) ridiculed for being shitty human beings. Anyone else we would just complain about their policies.

Right, just those two.

You're right, of course. No one on the right has ever ridiculed a Dem president or any other leader. You folks are friggin' paragons of pure good. I bow to your graciousness and hope that you lead us into a bright new future of good will and compassion.

Thank you, Rip. You have shown me the way.

I don't control those people, and you are totally wrong about Bush vitriol around here. Bush got far more vitriol here than Obama did and not a great deal less than Trump is getting here, although I will grant that he got less than Trump.....barely.

You're hanging out on a predominantly liberal forum bitching that it's a predominantly liberal forum.

I never said Bush received less ridicule than Obama here. I was responding to your seeming belief that Dems are far more abusive to GOP leaders in general. Something that's demonstrably false. Your "boo hoo, we're so put upon" line is getting old. When Obama was in office, he was the antichrist to your lot. Hell, Ted Nugent wanted to shoot him. So rip up your victim card.

I wasn't speaking to the entirety of the parties, I was and am speaking just about THIS forum. I can't recall but just a very few exceptions HERE IN THIS FORUM where anyone on the right has taken to calling any Dem POTUS vile names and the like. We (the handful of people on the right who used to be here and the two or three who remain) simply haven't done it. I would guess half or more of the people who represent the left HERE ON THIS FORUM have had to resort to it when referring to at least three or more Republican politicians. It is kind of a regular cool kids thing that goes back to the early days.

Personally I don't care but I think it is a lot of what keeps many away from R&P, which is a shame. If you want to see how well forums that only only have one side discussed work checkout the R&P forums over at gamingtrend.

Hell in the little time I was gone working on my project, I bet if you threw out any post that were just drive by Trump mocking/name calling there weren't even a handful of posts in my absence.

[geezer]

Drumpf is UNIQUELY terrible, and it's not because he's a republican. And for all that is holy, can we at least stop pretending he deeply holds ANY political positions? He's not a Republican. He's not a Democrat. He's not left or right wing. He's a grifter and a terrible one at that. He needs to go, not because of his political positions or what side of the aisle he's on, but because his very presence undermines hundreds of years of strong democratic theory and practice.

You've elected a mob boss from a basic cable sitcom. And that's the problem. Work together to get the country back on track or get out of the way. Anything else is detrimental to the country you profess to love. That people are enjoying this traffic accident of an administration for the lulz or stigginit makes it extra despicable, not less.

Even bringing up the names of Obama or Bush or Clinton or Reagan or whoever the fuck is not drumpf is a distraction from what's burning your country down. STOP bringing up other administrations or that other guy who did that thing you didn't like 20 years ago. Your house is on fire. Pay attention.

I bring them up because they were treated just as bad as Trump is. You say he is uniquely bad but the rhetoric is pretty much the same. Had Ted Cruz won he would be getting treated every bit as bad here as Trump is so no there is nothing unique about it on that point.

Cruz is a horrible example because he's uniquely reprehensible, and even so he'd be getting knocked for policy, not incompetence and general all-around dickishness AND policy. If we had, say, president Low Energy Jeb or President Little Marco, no, it wouldn't be exactly the same at all.

and you pick two guys that would probably get more Democrat votes than Republican ones. Cruz and Trump got nearly 75% of the Republican vote. Even with Bush and Rubio spending a mountain of cash.

So pretty much anyone who had any chance of getting the nomination was doomed to be ridiculed here. Thanks for helping me make my point!

Uh.. no. Think about what it actually means when Marco Rubio (tea party candidate) and Jeb Bush (about as traditional establishment as republicans get) are seen as not in line with republican orthodoxy. That will tell you all you need to know about what’s happening.

I mean, maybe it’s true that anyone the current R voters put forward would be ridiculed, but in reality that’s because the current driving forces in the R base are totally deplorable and deserve ridicule. It’s not our fault that the republicans have turned into nationalistic, ethnocentrist protectionalists.

[Rip]

So pretty much anyone who had any chance of getting the nomination was doomed to be ridiculed here. Thanks for helping me make my point!

No, two would have been (and have been) ridiculed for being shitty human beings. Anyone else we would just complain about their policies.

Right, just those two.

You're right, of course. No one on the right has ever ridiculed a Dem president or any other leader. You folks are friggin' paragons of pure good. I bow to your graciousness and hope that you lead us into a bright new future of good will and compassion.

Thank you, Rip. You have shown me the way.

I don't control those people, and you are totally wrong about Bush vitriol around here. Bush got far more vitriol here than Obama did and not a great deal less than Trump is getting here, although I will grant that he got less than Trump.....barely.

You're hanging out on a predominantly liberal forum bitching that it's a predominantly liberal forum.

I never said Bush received less ridicule than Obama here. I was responding to your seeming belief that Dems are far more abusive to GOP leaders in general. Something that's demonstrably false. Your "boo hoo, we're so put upon" line is getting old. When Obama was in office, he was the antichrist to your lot. Hell, Ted Nugent wanted to shoot him. So rip up your victim card.

Predominantly. But if the couple of us that are left stop coming it will go the way of gamintrends R&P forum, which is to say extinct. Not much to be had from taking turns calling Republicans names in the echo chamber. When that happens the echos will fade and it will die.

That is the single reason I still bother to engage here, because it pains me to think that will happen. As much as I differ in opinion here I enjoy having a good spar about issues. But if the spars are going to be nothing more than calling whoever is the Hitler of the day Hitler it becomes much less so.

[Rip]

Drumpf is UNIQUELY terrible, and it's not because he's a republican. And for all that is holy, can we at least stop pretending he deeply holds ANY political positions? He's not a Republican. He's not a Democrat. He's not left or right wing. He's a grifter and a terrible one at that. He needs to go, not because of his political positions or what side of the aisle he's on, but because his very presence undermines hundreds of years of strong democratic theory and practice.

You've elected a mob boss from a basic cable sitcom. And that's the problem. Work together to get the country back on track or get out of the way. Anything else is detrimental to the country you profess to love. That people are enjoying this traffic accident of an administration for the lulz or stigginit makes it extra despicable, not less.

Even bringing up the names of Obama or Bush or Clinton or Reagan or whoever the fuck is not drumpf is a distraction from what's burning your country down. STOP bringing up other administrations or that other guy who did that thing you didn't like 20 years ago. Your house is on fire. Pay attention.

I bring them up because they were treated just as bad as Trump is. You say he is uniquely bad but the rhetoric is pretty much the same. Had Ted Cruz won he would be getting treated every bit as bad here as Trump is so no there is nothing unique about it on that point.

Cruz is a horrible example because he's uniquely reprehensible, and even so he'd be getting knocked for policy, not incompetence and general all-around dickishness AND policy. If we had, say, president Low Energy Jeb or President Little Marco, no, it wouldn't be exactly the same at all.

and you pick two guys that would probably get more Democrat votes than Republican ones. Cruz and Trump got nearly 75% of the Republican vote. Even with Bush and Rubio spending a mountain of cash.

So pretty much anyone who had any chance of getting the nomination was doomed to be ridiculed here. Thanks for helping me make my point!

Uh.. no. Think about what it actually means when Marco Rubio (tea party candidate) and Jeb Bush (about as traditional establishment as republicans get) are seen as not in line with republican orthodoxy. That will tell you all you need to know about what’s happening.

I mean, maybe it’s true that anyone the current R voters put forward would be ridiculed, but in reality that’s because the current driving forces in the R base are totally deplorable and deserve ridicule. It’s not our fault that the republicans have turned into nationalistic, ethnocentrist protectionalists.

If I thought 60+ Million US citizens were deplorable and should be ridiculed I would have headed for the exit long ago. It must be grand to be so enlightened.

[Moliere]

I’d be interested to see where that data comes from.

Evangelicals doesn’t surprise me at all, as they are the pinnacle of tribal behavior. The movement in the “all Americans” category is far more concerning (44 to 61, if I’m reading that correctly).

source

[LawBeefaroni]

Trump: job producer!

Meet the guys who tape Trump's papers back together.
...
Under the Presidential Records Act, the White House must preserve all memos, letters, emails and papers that the president touches, sending them to the National Archives for safekeeping as historical records.

But White House aides realized early on that they were unable to stop Trump from ripping up paper after he was done with it and throwing it in the trash or on the floor, according to people familiar with the practice. Instead, they chose to clean it up for him, in order to make sure that the president wasn’t violating the law.

Staffers had the fragments of paper collected from the Oval Office as well as the private residence and send it over to records management across the street from the White House for Larkey and his colleagues to reassemble.

“We got Scotch tape, the clear kind,” Lartey recalled in an interview. “You found pieces and taped them back together and then you gave it back to the supervisor.” The restored papers would then be sent to the National Archives to be properly filed away

[hepcat]

So

A) Rip believes he’s singlehandedly keeping R&P alive

B) Msduncan never existed.

[Rip]

So

A) Rip believes he’s singlehandedly keeping R&P alive

B) Msduncan never existed.

I am quite sure he does since I spoke with him via chat for several hours the day I started my project. Everyone will know what it is I have been doing in the next few days. Msd and I continue to speak at length when we can but do it away from here. I consider him a good friend. I like everyone here no matter our political differences. Fireball and I are about as confrontational as you could get politically but I like and respect him a great deal. Different views are good, even the wrong ones.

[hepcat]

My point was the he and em2 have a history of doing the exact thing you swear conservative members don’t do here. Period.

P.S. spend a few minutes in any thread that even mentions Hillary Clinton and you’ll come across a picture you posted that’s sole purpose is to humiliate her. So let’s cut the holier than thou crap.

P.S.S. And while I don’t regret a single thing I’ve said about Trump (I felt this way towards that useless lump of shit long before he conned his way into a presidential money making scheme), I do regret the tone I sometimes take with others when discussing him. So I’m gonna back away now so as not to be even more obnoxious.

[geezer]

Drumpf is UNIQUELY terrible, and it's not because he's a republican. And for all that is holy, can we at least stop pretending he deeply holds ANY political positions? He's not a Republican. He's not a Democrat. He's not left or right wing. He's a grifter and a terrible one at that. He needs to go, not because of his political positions or what side of the aisle he's on, but because his very presence undermines hundreds of years of strong democratic theory and practice.

You've elected a mob boss from a basic cable sitcom. And that's the problem. Work together to get the country back on track or get out of the way. Anything else is detrimental to the country you profess to love. That people are enjoying this traffic accident of an administration for the lulz or stigginit makes it extra despicable, not less.

Even bringing up the names of Obama or Bush or Clinton or Reagan or whoever the fuck is not drumpf is a distraction from what's burning your country down. STOP bringing up other administrations or that other guy who did that thing you didn't like 20 years ago. Your house is on fire. Pay attention.

I bring them up because they were treated just as bad as Trump is. You say he is uniquely bad but the rhetoric is pretty much the same. Had Ted Cruz won he would be getting treated every bit as bad here as Trump is so no there is nothing unique about it on that point.

Cruz is a horrible example because he's uniquely reprehensible, and even so he'd be getting knocked for policy, not incompetence and general all-around dickishness AND policy. If we had, say, president Low Energy Jeb or President Little Marco, no, it wouldn't be exactly the same at all.

and you pick two guys that would probably get more Democrat votes than Republican ones. Cruz and Trump got nearly 75% of the Republican vote. Even with Bush and Rubio spending a mountain of cash.

So pretty much anyone who had any chance of getting the nomination was doomed to be ridiculed here. Thanks for helping me make my point!

Uh.. no. Think about what it actually means when Marco Rubio (tea party candidate) and Jeb Bush (about as traditional establishment as republicans get) are seen as not in line with republican orthodoxy. That will tell you all you need to know about what’s happening.

I mean, maybe it’s true that anyone the current R voters put forward would be ridiculed, but in reality that’s because the current driving forces in the R base are totally deplorable and deserve ridicule. It’s not our fault that the republicans have turned into nationalistic, ethnocentrist protectionalists.

If I thought 60+ Million US citizens were deplorable and should be ridiculed I would have headed for the exit long ago. It must be grand to be so enlightened.

Oh, it’s not that I’m particularly enlightened - I’m fully aware of my contradictons and flaws. It’s more that the current republican base is comprised of lizard-brained reactionaries. But I can see how it might feel that way in a world where Marco Rubio is suddenly and inexplicably too liberal. I mean, jeebus, that’s lunacy.

[Fretmute]

If I thought 60+ Million US citizens were deplorable and should be ridiculed I would have headed for the exit long ago. It must be grand to be so enlightened.

Oh, it’s not that I’m particularly enlightened - I’m fully aware of my contradictons and flaws. It’s more that the current republican base is comprised of lizard-brained reactionaries. But I can see how it might feel that way in a world where Marco Rubio is suddenly and inexplicably too liberal. I mean, jeebus, that’s lunacy.

Trump's racist shitbaggery is a matter of public record. The idea that someone could be ignorant of this is laughable. Nonetheless, that leaves two options: someone who supports Trump is either comically uninformed, or is willing to support a racist shitbag. Judgment follows.

[GreenGoo]

Of fucking course deplorable people don't think their they're deplorable.

No one is asking deplorable people if they think they are deplorable.

We're telling them in no uncertain terms.

[RunningMn9]

a good spar about issues.

But you don't know anything (or care) about any issues. Trolls never do. Your knowledge on any given topic is the very thinnest veneer. You need it to be so that you can take any position you need to fulfill your goal of stiggin' it. That's the only thing you enjoy.

There have been dozens of conservatives over the years that care about and are willing to spar about issues. You aren't one of them. You've never been one of them. At least until he lost his temper, MSD was one of them. But you never were. You just enjoy trolling here.

[Holman]

Trump is meeting with Kim Jong Un tomorrow, and he has spent the past hour sitting on his fat ass tweeting insults at our European allies.

[GreenGoo]

Trump is meeting with Kim Jong Un tomorrow, and he has spent the past hour sitting on his fat ass tweeting insults at our European allies.

You see, drumpf is a policy wonk. He's all about making the economy work based on sound economic policies. Taunting trade partners is all part of it. And fuck you lefty snowflakes for suggesting otherwise.

[Zaxxon]

Boy, has the value of this thread cratered lately. One of these years the rest of you will come to your senses and stop engaging. It's really a shame.

[El Guapo]

Boy, has the value of this thread cratered lately. One of these years the rest of you will come to your senses and stop engaging. It's really a shame.

We at least had a nice couple of weeks when Rip retired from R&P.

[Zaxxon]

He might stay that way if you guys didn't keep feeding him.

[El Guapo]

He might stay that way if you guys didn't keep feeding him.

Preaching to the choir, my friend.

[Rip]

Not to worry, when I divert most of my spare time in a couple days to my new endeavor I will have far less time to spend discussing politics. You guys will have a chance to scream into the echo chamber with little noise from me.

[Remus West]

That ship sailed. You helped vote in Putin’s Orange Puppet.

I would be happy not to if given the option of someone who would do the things I have proposed.

and here is the part where you prove yourself full of shit. In order to avoid HRC you voted in someone who was openly encouraging Russian interference in our election. You can not do that and claim to be anti-Putin. It just doesn't work. You vote in Putin's bitch you do not get to pretend you were not hoping for a reach around yourself. You make all these claims about what you'd like done and then vote in someone openly embracing the opposite? You're either the biggest idiot on the planet or just trolling.

And frankly, I agree with you that our actions with regard to Putin have been far far too little but never once did I consider voting for Trump based off a desire to be stronger against Russia. I voted HRC partly because of the open Russia hate towards her. They didn't want her as our President. You gave them that.

[Remus West]

Bush never got this level of vitriol from folks around here.

Wait, what? Bush got a different kind of vitriol, I don't know that it was demonstrably less. The difference during the Bush years is that there were folks here that could (or would) present an honest defense of Bush. The only people willing to defend/accept Trump here are shitty trolls that people can't stop feeding. That's a combination of a change in board demographics (people leaving, and a selection of people that have been forced out of the GOP since 2008 after they clearly went insane). Well, that and the fact that Trump is the most comically unfit human being to ever be elected to high office. Bush wasn't unfit, not by a long shot.

Bush received a ton of vitriol from me due to getting us involved in Iraq. We didn't need to go there. Had no legitimate reason to go there. Were lied to to get us there. To me Bush is personally responsible for every drop of blood spilled there. I supported the invasion of Afganistan but the invasion of Iraq was not lawful or needed. The invasion of Iraq put us squarely in the role of international bully even more than we already were.

That said, I do pine for the days of Bush compared to now. I'd rather be the neighborhood bully than Putin's little chew toy.

[El Guapo]

Bush never got this level of vitriol from folks around here.

Wait, what? Bush got a different kind of vitriol, I don't know that it was demonstrably less. The difference during the Bush years is that there were folks here that could (or would) present an honest defense of Bush. The only people willing to defend/accept Trump here are shitty trolls that people can't stop feeding. That's a combination of a change in board demographics (people leaving, and a selection of people that have been forced out of the GOP since 2008 after they clearly went insane). Well, that and the fact that Trump is the most comically unfit human being to ever be elected to high office. Bush wasn't unfit, not by a long shot.

Bush received a ton of vitriol from me due to getting us involved in Iraq. We didn't need to go there. Had no legitimate reason to go there. Were lied to to get us there. To me Bush is personally responsible for every drop of blood spilled there. I supported the invasion of Afganistan but the invasion of Iraq was not lawful or needed. The invasion of Iraq put us squarely in the role of international bully even more than we already were.

That said, I do pine for the days of Bush compared to now. I'd rather be the neighborhood bully than Putin's little chew toy.

Yeah, Bush meant well, was able to call on first-tier Republican talent, wasn't personally corrupt (though some poor management at least abetted corruption), and had a rationale for what he was doing (even though I didn't agree with most of it).

Trump sadly fails on pretty much all of those minimal bars. He's indefensible as a whole.

[LordMortis]

Bush received a ton of vitriol from me due to getting us involved in Iraq. We didn't need to go there. Had no legitimate reason to go there. Were lied to to get us there. To me Bush is personally responsible for every drop of blood spilled there. I supported the invasion of Afganistan but the invasion of Iraq was not lawful or needed. The invasion of Iraq put us squarely in the role of international bully even more than we already were.

That said, I do pine for the days of Bush compared to now. I'd rather be the neighborhood bully than Putin's little chew toy.

I know you are addressing one thing and one in which I concur and did so loud and long for as long as the discussion was to be had but it's a longer story. Clinton also had no business in Iraq and once George the Elder commit, he never should have pulled out until Iraq was liberated and the Kurds were... appeased... for lack of a better word. If George the Elder was not prepared to go that far, even he had no business bringing us in and that goes back Reagan's double dealing with foreign interests behind the scenes which then goes back to Carter's inability to work work Iran and the oil criseses of the 70s.

I, personally, hate it all and there's a whole lot of blame to go around domestically and internationally. Iraq should never have been our political toy and their blood is a stain on US hands for at least nearly as long as I've been alive.

[GreenGoo]

Bush's vitriol was demonstrably less.

For instance, I started by praising his efforts in many areas post 9/11. He was a kajillion more times a leader at that time than drumpf could ever hope to be.


Then he had to go into Iraq, at which point Canada (rightly, imo) refused to follow him in there. As Remus points out, there was no valid reason to go into Iraq. This was known and his transparent attempts to rationalize it were insulting. Starting an unneeded war is a pretty big no-no on my list of things that piss me off.

But that's pretty much it, even if it's a big one. Bush going into Iraq and lying to make it happen was just brutal and that's where my vitriol came from. Prior to that I said nice things about him, and as to his other policies, I was opposed to some, but that's not the same thing as vitriol.