SCOTUS Watch

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm

I totally get the "if you support racists/homophobes you're a bad person" angle, as I feel it most days myself. It boggles my mind that people are willing to look the other way on some of these human rights issues in favor of their pet policy.

On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it. Just as they don't acknowledge Trump is a womanizing pussy grabber, a pathological liar, and a Russian puppet. All that stuff that is too intolerable to acknowledge just gets....dismissed. And as we all know, Trump supporters are VERY good at rejecting reality and substituting it with one of their own.

The other factor at play is that many of them are not so much pro-Trump as they are anti-LIBRUL. So the non-liberal option, no matter how horrendous, is their automatic choice. The only thing that got me to switch political parties is to stop being knee-jerk ANTI-<other side> and looking at who I was voting for. And when I saw who I was voting for, I realized I was voting for a bunch of monsters.

It's a disconnect I struggle with every day. Having to reconcile the friends/co-workers/family members I've known for decades and genuinely like, and the political views they support which are abhorrent.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:46 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm I totally get the "if you support racists/homophobes you're a bad person" angle, as I feel it most days myself. It boggles my mind that people are willing to look the other way on some of these human rights issues in favor of their pet policy.

On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it. Just as they don't acknowledge Trump is a womanizing pussy grabber, a pathological liar, and a Russian puppet. All that stuff that is too intolerable to acknowledge just gets....dismissed. And as we all know, Trump supporters are VERY good at rejecting reality and substituting it with one of their own.

It's a disconnect I struggle with every day. Having to reconcile the friends/co-workers/family members I've known for decades and genuinely like, and the political views they support which are abhorrent.

+100

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:51 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm I totally get the "if you support racists/homophobes you're a bad person" angle, as I feel it most days myself. It boggles my mind that people are willing to look the other way on some of these human rights issues in favor of their pet policy.

On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it. Just as they don't acknowledge Trump is a womanizing pussy grabber, a pathological liar, and a Russian puppet. All that stuff that is too intolerable to acknowledge just gets....dismissed. And as we all know, Trump supporters are VERY good at rejecting reality and substituting it with one of their own.

The other factor at play is that many of them are not so much pro-Trump as they are anti-LIBRUL. So the non-liberal option, no matter how horrendous, is their automatic choice. The only thing that got me to switch political parties is to stop being knee-jerk ANTI-<other side> and looking at who I was voting for. And when I saw who I was voting for, I realized I was voting for a bunch of monsters.

It's a disconnect I struggle with every day. Having to reconcile the friends/co-workers/family members I've known for decades and genuinely like, and the political views they support which are abhorrent.

Well said.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.

If they support Trump and support his policies, they are bad people, period. You cannot support the things Trump does and be a good person.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it.

That doesn’t make it okay. That makes them bad people.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:02 pm

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.
If they support Trump and support his policies, they are bad people, period. You cannot support the things Trump does and be a good person.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it.
That doesn’t make it okay. That makes them bad people.

We are all sinners.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:16 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:02 pm
Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.
If they support Trump and support his policies, they are bad people, period. You cannot support the things Trump does and be a good person.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it.
That doesn’t make it okay. That makes them bad people.
We are all sinners.

So were the nice, churchgoing people of South Africa before the 1990s, and the Germans of the 1930s.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:16 pm

Not all sins are created equal.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:17 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:16 pm Not all sins are created equal.

Indeed. Who gets to choose which are the important ones?

I'm not surprised it's you and Fireball.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:17 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:02 pm
Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.
If they support Trump and support his policies, they are bad people, period. You cannot support the things Trump does and be a good person.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it.
That doesn’t make it okay. That makes them bad people.
We are all sinners.

At least some of us can admit it.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:17 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:02 pmWe are all sinners.

Maybe. But I have taken umbrage with family members that declare themselves proud members of THE Catholic church, giving them money and support each week despite the Church's position on same-sex marriage, homosexuality, hiding abuse, or whatever other scandal you'd like to name. They're somehow able to compartmentalize their beliefs vs the official position of the church and believe (I guess) that even though they personally don't believe in X,Y, or Z (like their church does), they're still full-fledged members - because (apparently) even if the idea of being so disgusted by what their religious institution supports, they just can't bring themselves to separate themselves from it.

In the same way, just after the election we had the Cinemax theory of Racism by John Scalzi, and I think it applies here to people that still want to say they voted for Trump, not because of all the awful shit he represented during the election, but because of his Republican ideals (whatever that means). No, it doesn't work like that. You voted for him despite all the awful shit and now you need to own it.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:18 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:17 pm
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:16 pm Not all sins are created equal.
Indeed. Who gets to choose which are the important ones?

I'm not surprised it's you and Fireball.

Catholics. Duh. (edit: Damn it I thought I was being original, having not seen Smoove's Catholic post when I posted this. Damn it again.)

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pm

Political parties are an all-or-nothing proposition. You get the whole shebang. Even if we (the OO majority) agreed with Trump on something, we wouldn't support him because we'd have to support his racism/homophobia/etc along with it.

People around here (also Trump country) support Trump because supporting the Democrats would mean supporting positions they absolutely can't bring themselves to support. They may be anti-Trump, but they feel the same way about things like abortion that we do about Trump's racist border policies.

So, from their perspective, are they going to choose to be bad people for supporting his racism, or bad people for supporting his opposition's (to them) infanticide? Although I may not agree with them at all, I can sympathize with the fact that they're facing an impossible dilemma. I won't damn them as 'horrible people' for it.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:20 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:18 pm
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:17 pm
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:16 pm Not all sins are created equal.
Indeed. Who gets to choose which are the important ones?

I'm not surprised it's you and Fireball.
Catholics. Duh.

I'm not Catholic. I'm technically an Episcopalian, but I haven't been able to bring myself to go to church since early 2017.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:24 pm

My comment was at ND. If he wants to call us all sinners then I get to choose who the final arbiter of sin is.

Catholics are awesome because they are not protestants, plus if anyone agrees with ND about how everyone is guilty of something, it's the catholics. They invented guilt for babies and zygotes after all.

edit: I appreciate ND trying to "keep me honest" about my seething hatred for all things Drumpf but I've tried to not condemn those who blindly or ignorantly (rather than enthusiastically) support drumpf but it hasn't worked out. Every time he takes things too far and your average, non-piece of crap republican decides that it's ok, or worse, that it didn't happen they are enabling him. And fuck that.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:39 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pm Although I may not agree with them at all, I can sympathize with the fact that they're facing an impossible dilemma. I won't damn them as 'horrible people' for it.

It's not impossible. It's just hard. Nuance is difficult. Staying straight party line with a racist, isolatonist moron is easy when he's not crushing your rights. Yet.

And it's not even the vote. That's forgivable. Getting swindled is a fact of life. It's the continued support in the face of daily economic theft, foreign policy failures, and blatant attacks on rights and freedoms. That takes a horrible person.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:41 pm

Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.
If they support Trump and support his policies, they are bad people, period. You cannot support the things Trump does and be a good person.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it.
That doesn’t make it okay. That makes them bad people.

So my parents are bad people? Got it. Thanks. Your ugly hyperbole, especially today, knows no bounds.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:43 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:39 pm
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pm Although I may not agree with them at all, I can sympathize with the fact that they're facing an impossible dilemma. I won't damn them as 'horrible people' for it.
It's not impossible. It's just hard. Nuance is difficult. Staying straight party line with a racist, isolatonist moron is easy when he's not crushing your rights. Yet.

And it's not even the vote. That's forgivable. Getting swindled is a fact of life. It's the continued support in the face of daily economic theft, foreign policy failures, and blatant attacks on rights and freedoms.

Bingo. I've seen interviews where people, non-enthusiastic average people who barely pay attention to politics, when confronted with facts, simply state that things can't be as bad as all that, so the media must be "fake news". The average person doesn't call it fake news, they say "the media is exaggerating". It's maddening. Fuck those people too for not educating themselves while your country has begun to burn.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:43 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:39 am

link

Brett Kavanaugh: "No president has ever consulted more widely or talked to more people from more backgrounds to seek input for a Supreme Court nomination."
Starting off with an obvious lie to flatter Trump. This is already ridiculous.

I’m not going to say that there weren’t other nominees that didn’t flatter the sitting president but this is the nominee of the moment and it reminded me of the time when the Toddler’s cabinet (with the exception of Mattis) were taking turns praising the Toddler. I’m sure the Toddler will appreciate his loyalty...

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:44 pm

pr0ner wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:41 pm
Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm That doesn’t make it okay. That makes them bad people.
So my parents are bad people? Got it. Thanks. Your ugly hyperbole, especially today, knows no bounds.

Lol.

Nothing says "ugly hyperbole" like the term "bad people".

For the record I don't like your parents either. I think they might be bad people.

edit: I don't actually not like Pr0ner's parents. I just want to push his buttons because he's so obviously getting his back up over his parents being grouped into the "bad people" category, which I find hilarious. There's a little bit of Rip in me too, which is part of why I supported him for years and years. Sue me.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:52 pm

It is hard to call people bad when vast sums of money, time, ink, and video tape has been spent over 50 years to condition them to ignore the truth. They have some responsibility for sure but that doesn't make them bad people. It just makes them people.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:53 pm

pr0ner wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:41 pm
Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.
If they support Trump and support his policies, they are bad people, period. You cannot support the things Trump does and be a good person.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it.
That doesn’t make it okay. That makes them bad people.
So my parents are bad people? Got it. Thanks. Your ugly hyperbole, especially today, knows no bounds.

Do your parents support Trump as he is tearing children away from their parents and throwing them into cages? Do they support him as he is shitting on NATO and kowtowing to Russia? Do they support him as he’s trying to undo gay rights and choice and voting rights with his Supreme Court pick?

People who support these things are horrible people. Do your mom and dad get a special exemption because you love them?

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:53 pm

My mother is a bad person, at least politically. My father remains quiet on many issues, and I have a blind spot where he's concerned, so he may be a bad person politically as well.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:59 pm

pr0ner wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:41 pm
Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.
If they support Trump and support his policies, they are bad people, period. You cannot support the things Trump does and be a good person.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it.
That doesn’t make it okay. That makes them bad people.
So my parents are bad people? Got it. Thanks. Your ugly hyperbole, especially today, knows no bounds.

Some of them, I assume, are good people.

We are in a bruising power struggle with the gloves off. Anyone who thinks we can bridge the divide and come together for the greater good is delusional, and if the Democrats run a centrist in 2020, they will surely lose.

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:00 pm

pr0ner wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:41 pm
Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.
If they support Trump and support his policies, they are bad people, period. You cannot support the things Trump does and be a good person.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it.
That doesn’t make it okay. That makes them bad people.
So my parents are bad people? Got it. Thanks. Your ugly hyperbole, especially today, knows no bounds.

Apparently they want to take health insurance away from my wife. They may believe that there are "some good people on both sides," even though one side believes my son is subhuman and should go back to Africa despite the fact that he was born in Austin, Tx. So you tell me - are those "good" people?

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 pm

What overriding reason do our allegedly bad parents have for supporting the Trump administration?

I can't think of any positives about this administration that override the overwhelming negatives. Yes, the tax changes benefit me in the short term but even in isolation they aren't worth the long term impact. I can't think of any other benefits.

I guess that guns, abortion and obamacare are the excuses, but they are not good excuses. I am actually in favor of rationalizing regulation and spending, but this administration is not particularly rational in that regard.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:09 pm

All parents are good people, even the ax murderers.

And in the same vein, it's rare to see a mom or dad interviewed whose "basically good kid" just committed some horrific act, admit that he's a monster.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:15 pm

Let's watch the personal stuff. The one thing we can probably all agree to is that it's nice to have a refuge (somewhat) from all the spittle and hate flying around the internet. I, for one, kind of depend on it.

Short story. My kid goes to a neighborhood summer campish thing at the local school. It's just three hours so it's not really a day camp but it's free and it's a great way for the neighborhood kids to stay in touch over the summer. She goes for like 2 weeks a year.

This week, a Democrat US senator stopped by for a photo op and tweeted a photo of him with my daughter and a few other kids. Now I'm not a fan of that, but whatever. It's 2018. Anyway, the wife sent it to me and one of the first replies is a guy saying that freeloading foreigners should watch their own kids and not the taxpayers. Every kid in the photo is from the neighborhood and I'd wager each family pays at least $8k a year in property taxes. Most pay way more. It's a 3 hours a day, not a dump off.

I mean great, fuck civics and civility. I can't even show it to the kid ("hey, you're in a senator's feed!"") because things like a cartoon of the mayor of London naked and on a pike show up. It's all bots and assholes. I'm convinced that's the purpose of the bots, to sow discord and hatred. Divide and conquer.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:15 pm

coopasonic wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 pm What overriding reason do our allegedly bad parents have for supporting the Trump administration?

I can't think of any positives about this administration that override the overwhelming negatives. Yes, the tax changes benefit me in the short term but even in isolation they aren't worth the long term impact. I can't think of any other benefits.

I guess that guns, abortion and obamacare are the excuses, but they are not good excuses. I am actually in favor of rationalizing regulation and spending, but this administration is not particularly rational in that regard.

At least in my Dad's case, he has very much bought into the whole MAGA thing. He has become quite "religious" in his latter years, and feels like the country has lost its moral compass over the past 20 years or so. As for my Mom, she still denies she supported or voted for Trump. If she didn't actually vote for him, I would be very surprised. Very likely a closet Trumpist. I mean, she is no fan, like my Dad probably is, but she has bought the whole "but he's good at business!" propaganda hook, line and sinker.

As far as I'm concerned it comes down to a REALLY hypocritical swath of our fellow citizens who feel like they've been on the losing side of politics and culture for the past 20 years, that things are moving too fast. Voting for Trump was an opportunity for them to slam the brakes on what many see as progress, but others see as careening off the cliff of morality and "what made this country great". Throw in some "I got mine, screw everybody else!" and a bit of 2A love, some irrational Obama hate and presto! a Trump voter appears before you in a cloud of smoke.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:17 pm

Mod hat on

So I certainly see the value of the debate over people's political opinions and asking if they "good people". I myself have family members who are Trump supporters. But I think we start to go down a bad path on this forum when we begin to make it more personal by calling out people's family members. Perhaps my hesitance doesn't make sense from a debate point of view. But I'm a rather simple person in regards to etiquette and truly, does anything really good come from such an action? Are we really "teaching a lesson" in an instructive way? (we all know the other meaning of "teaching a lesson") I think at that point civility begins to break down and during these times civility on this forum is the only thing separating us from the cesspool of Facebook, Twitter, etc.

So all I ask is that people just step back for a bit and think about their responses.

Thanks!

mod hat off

GO ENGLAND! IT'S COMING HOME (off topic)

Edit: Arrgh, Lawbeef beat me to it. You wanker!

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:27 pm

$iljanus wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:17 pm Mod hat on

So I certainly see the value of the debate over people's political opinions and asking if they "good people". I myself have family members who are Trump supporters. But I think we start to go down a bad path on this forum when we begin to make it more personal by calling out people's family members. Perhaps my hesitance doesn't make sense from a debate point of view. But I'm a rather simple person in regards to etiquette and truly, does anything really good come from such an action? Are we really "teaching a lesson" in an instructive way? (we all know the other meaning of "teaching a lesson") I think at that point civility begins to break down and during these times civility on this forum is the only thing separating us from the cesspool of Facebook, Twitter, etc.

So all I ask is that people just step back for a bit and think about their responses.

Thanks!

mod hat off

GO ENGLAND! IT'S COMING HOME (off topic)

Some people are more sensitive about this than others. If anyone wants to take shots at my parents, or ask questions, even with nastiness, I'm game. I struggle with this issue constantly, so I doubt anyone here can write anything I haven't considered or thought myself regarding the people I live around, and come from.

I love my parents (let's use my Dad, since my Mom is questionable wrt Trump), but I have an almost constant feeling of "I came from this guy's loin's, and I despise his entire world view" every time I am around him. That dichotomy is tough as hell on our relationship, which has become increasingly strained as he has become more and more politically active over the past decade.

He probably has the same thought about me (loins/world view). I'm his son, he loves me. I know this. But I bet he also thinks he failed as a father regarding my upbringing, OR that I've been duped by liberal lies and propaganda (I know the latter is true at least, because he's said as much, but suspect the former is true as well).

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:35 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:02 pm
Fireball wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:01 pm
YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:43 pm On the other hand, I live in Trump country. I know a LOT of people who voted for and support him. And I also know they're not bad people. They're good fathers and great co-workers and do a lot for their church and community. I know a LOT of them.
If they support Trump and support his policies, they are bad people, period. You cannot support the things Trump does and be a good person.

In the vast majority of cases I don't think it's a matter of them actively supporting bigotry. I think they just wall that portion off in their minds and don't acknowledge it.
That doesn’t make it okay. That makes them bad people.
We are all sinners.

No we aren't.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:41 pm

coopasonic wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 pm What overriding reason do our allegedly bad parents have for supporting the Trump administration?

I can't think of any positives about this administration that override the overwhelming negatives. Yes, the tax changes benefit me in the short term but even in isolation they aren't worth the long term impact. I can't think of any other benefits.

I guess that guns, abortion and obamacare are the excuses, but they are not good excuses. I am actually in favor of rationalizing regulation and spending, but this administration is not particularly rational in that regard.

I think you’re in the wrong income bracket if you’re not reaping the benefits of our Dear Leader’s, umm, leadership.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:44 pm

This is a challenge with my father in law as well. He's adamant that "freeloaders shouldn't get health care", until I remind him that Mrs. Skinypupy has a list of pre-existing conditions a mile long, and that if the proposed healthcare changes go through and I happened to lose my job, we'd be utterly and completely fucked. He's adamant that federal agency budgets should be cut to the bone, until I remind him that our family's income depends solely on government spending. He's adamant that work requirements should be mandatory for food stamp recipients, until I remind him that his other daughter's family basically survived on food stamps for a long time while neither of them were working.

His response is always some version of "I'm obviously not talking about you, it's all those others that are abusing the system that need to be stopped." There's always a justification when it comes to things that affect his own family, but he's absolutely convinced that those "others" need to put back in their place.

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:03 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:44 pm This is a challenge with my father in law as well. He's adamant that "freeloaders shouldn't get health care", until I remind him that Mrs. Skinypupy has a list of pre-existing conditions a mile long, and that if the proposed healthcare changes go through and I happened to lose my job, we'd be utterly and completely fucked. He's adamant that federal agency budgets should be cut to the bone, until I remind him that our family's income depends solely on government spending. He's adamant that work requirements should be mandatory for food stamp recipients, until I remind him that his other daughter's family basically survived on food stamps for a long time while neither of them were working.

His response is always some version of "I'm obviously not talking about you, it's all those others that are abusing the system that need to be stopped." There's always a justification when it comes to things that affect his own family, but he's absolutely convinced that those "others" need to put back in their place.

For my parents-in-law it's because they are absolutely *convinced* that Muslims are coming to blow everyone up

Apparently that's a more pressing threat than the fact that my wife (their daughter) also has a list of preexisting concerns a mile long, and is self-employed.

I've got no problem saying that their racism makes them bad people.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:07 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:52 pm It is hard to call people bad when vast sums of money, time, ink, and video tape has been spent over 50 years to condition them to ignore the truth. They have some responsibility for sure but that doesn't make them bad people. It just makes them people.

Shrug. And yet some people use the tools they were given and survive all that propaganda.

I'm willing to give the average (edit: 1930's) German person a pass for keeping their heads down when brown shirts are beating the everliving shit out of anyone who steps out of line. I'm not willing to give the average German a pass because Germany was being made great again.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:17 pm

I've lost my father to Fox News. He's always been a borderline racist, but in the last 10 years, as he's watched more and more of that bile, he's become someone I don't recognize. He tried to throw my cousin and her family out of the house two Christmases ago because her husband made the mistake of disagreeing with one of my dad's racist anti-Obama tirades. He thinks that Muslims are evil, that undocumented immigrants are voting en masse in our elections, and that people just need to stop "worrying about all that social issue bullshit" — ie, all the things that don't effect rich, white, straight men like him.

My parents swear they didn't vote for Trump, because they know if they did — or admit that they did — that my brother and I would never speak to them again. It would be the end of their relationship with their children.

I used to go home frequently. Now I only go home at Christmas, and I am in and out in as few days as possible. I get up and leave the table — even if we're at a restaurant — if my dad tries to bring up anything political.

I love my parents, but they're not good people anymore. They're not the parents I grew up with.

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:17 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:52 pm It is hard to call people bad when vast sums of money, time, ink, and video tape has been spent over 50 years to condition them to ignore the truth. They have some responsibility for sure but that doesn't make them bad people. It just makes them people.

I guess we're just always hopeful that one day y'all will see the light despite the huge false bill of goods you've been sold.

For the record, I will say that the side I support needs to see the false bill of goods they've been sold by the military industrial complex.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:20 pm

I'm just going to point out with the absolute lack of any significant drama on the boards for months and years at a time now (what's the active population? 30? 50? 100? people?) I find the "drama" that the mods feel the need to step in and "deal with" particularly hilarious, given that 10 years ago calling a certain category of people "bad people", then having someone get all uppity because his parents are in that category wouldn't have even caused a ripple in the modosphere.

"bad people" is about the least offensive personal slur I can think of. Calling it "personal" when you have to travel 3 or 4 degrees of separation to even understand who or what is the problem is hilariously snowflaky.

So this is my "making it personal" to the mods. In my opinion, and in my fevered imagined rememberances of yesteryear, we haven't even begun to push against the threshold of OO's supposed rules.

I mean, I'm not saying you don't have the right or power to step in at times that you judge appropriate, I'm saying that just because a discussion rises slightly above "tepid" in terms of emotions and personal feelies doesn't make it mod-worthy.

I suspect the entire problem is that your parents are "bad people" and failed to raise you right.

It's obviously not a coincidence that I have been pretty aggressive in my posts at the same time that I feel this way about modder intervention. I'm not oblivious.

Separately, but for the record, I have been suitably impressed by Pr0ner's outrage at Drumpf. He clearly understands that Drumpf is not a champion of conservative ideals, and is not following blindly ignoring the sheer volume republic damaging actions the current administration is taking. As one of the last even mildly conservative people who participate honestly on the board, I respect that. As for parents, well, you can't pick'em.

edit: My parents are dead, but they were saints! Saints, I tell you! I won't hear different!

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:27 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:53 pm My mother is a bad person, at least politically. My father remains quiet on many issues, and I have a blind spot where he's concerned, so he may be a bad person politically as well.

I can say unequivocally that he is a bad person, but it has nothing to do with his politics.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:33 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pm Political parties are an all-or-nothing proposition. You get the whole shebang. Even if we (the OO majority) agreed with Trump on something, we wouldn't support him because we'd have to support his racism/homophobia/etc along with it.

In the past it was ok to be a single (or even few) issue voter. But that was before the other issues were picking a fight with Canada for reasons that are hard to understand, pulling kids away from their parents, putting them in cages, or giving them to strangers and claiming (with a straight face) that it means the families have been re-united.

I don't give 2 shits about what you think about immigration. Once you give up your humanity if it means getting what you want, you're no longer human by your own choice. *cough* bad people, I meant.