SCOTUS Watch

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:33 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:27 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:53 pm My mother is a bad person, at least politically. My father remains quiet on many issues, and I have a blind spot where he's concerned, so he may be a bad person politically as well.
I can say unequivocally that he is a bad person, but it has nothing to do with his politics.

He did spend over forty years working for the military industrial complex.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:42 pm

I don't know how you raise a human search engine and still be a good person, is all I'm saying.

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:52 pm

"human"? I thought that was disproved.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:15 pm

Some of your parents sound like great people. I am at a loss to figure out where they went wrong raising their offspring.......

But I forgive them.

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:21 pm

my dad was a Republican and religious - he's gone 180 from that now. probably one of the most virulently anti-GOP, anti-Religious-Right people i know... and he's still prejudiced against Native Americans. people are complex and don't often fit neatly into boxes.

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:22 pm

Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:15 pm Some of your parents sound like great people. I am at a loss to figure out where they went wrong raising their offspring.......

They failed to pay attention to just exactly who was schooling their children.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:28 pm

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:21 pm my dad was a Republican and religious - he's gone 180 from that now. probably one of the most virulently anti-GOP, anti-Religious-Right people i know... and he's still prejudiced against Native Americans. people are complex and don't often fit neatly into boxes.

That's why you have to cut them up and tetris them in there.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:35 pm

I think people on OO, who are generally well above average intelligence, well educated, and decently introspective are expecting way too much when it comes to the masses seeing through layers of bullshit the larger issues that are going on. Way, way too many of them haven't the faintest idea how to think critically or question what they're told.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:50 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:35 pm I think people on OO, who are generally well above average intelligence, well educated, and decently introspective are expecting way too much when it comes to the masses seeing through layers of bullshit the larger issues that are going on. Way, way too many of them haven't the faintest idea how to think critically or question what they're told.

I think it goes beyond that. Conservatives have spent amazing amounts of effort slowly building an alternative facts machines through multiple media outlets. That it ensnared the boomers in large part was by design. I've personally seen very smart people who buy into this shit. They've been watching it for years and it only slowly turned into a bullshit machine. In other words, they were gradually "programmed" to distrust more reputable sources of information. In the end propaganda works...much like how advertising works. Especially when they started incorporating all the dog whistles that folks wanted to hear that incorporated elements of society that they resented. A lot of white rage and anxiety about changing demographics are driving these changes and the Fox machine feeds that lizard brain part that harbors that stuff.

I get that we want to believe these are only solely morons and rubes but it isn't reality. True there are a lot of rubes, morons, and uneducated folks too but the bottom line is that Fox viewers (to highlight an offender) are generally older, wealthier, and white. Trump voters were heavily white across all income classes. There is a lot of overlap there. The younger white disaffected have Internet resources that cater to them too. I'm talking about resources like /r/the_donald. And social media was flooded with bots and carefully tailored content meant to divide and inflame white rage.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:59 pm

Rip wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:15 pm Some of your parents sound like great people.

I assume SOME are great, but they're mostly rapists (and murderers).

GungHo · Post by **GungHo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:07 pm

Have a question for the legal eagles...so this guy Kavanaugh, he's all for presidential powers and whatnot. No civil/criminal cases to be brought against a sitting president and all that; but if his viewpoint is that the job of the president is too important, too critical to be wasting time following the laws you've sworn an oath to uphold(I know, I should probably stop right there) then does he think the president should be elected for life? I mean isn't this job too critical to be wasting time on a transfer of power? What about lame duck presidents? The power of the presidency is clearly diminished in(at least) the last year of their term, so why allow that to happen? And what about impeachment? IIRC, Clinton's impeachment took a fair bit of his time(being wildly sarcastic here) so shouldn't we just brush that under the carpet, too? How does he reconcile the idea of the executive being a 'co-equal branch of government' if it doesnt have to follow the rules laws like the other 2 do?

Just blows my mind that somebody who has been to friggin' law school not only would think like that, but that they are even capable of it.

EDIT: sorry if this is asked & answered, I havent kept up with this thread and I'm working my way through...thx

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:50 pm I get that we want to believe these are only solely morons and rubes but it isn't reality. True there are a lot of rubes, morons, and uneducated folks too but the bottom line is that Fox viewers (to highlight an offender) are generally older, wealthier, and white. Trump voters were heavily white across all income classes. There is a lot of overlap there. The younger white disaffected have Internet resources that cater to them too. I'm talking about resources like /r/the_donald. And social media was flooded with bots and carefully tailored content meant to divide and inflame white rage.

Totally agree, and I'd like to add that I think our higher education system is a bit of a failure here as well. Many degrees are tailored to fit a very specific set of skills, accounting, engineering, healthcare, IT, etc. And the so-called 'liberal arts' have been vilified as useless degrees that can't get you a job, but IMHO, those are the degrees in which students are really taught the critical thinking skills that allow them to be better citizens. Not saying you can't be/aren't a good citizen without a BA, obviously, just that that aspect of many college students educational career is neglected and we're poorer for it.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:19 pm

When you support actions that hurt people, do you have any right to be protected from angry people who have been hurt?

Trump declared openly that he was a horrible person, would be a horrible leader, and would be horrible to many people. Some people decided that didn't matter because they would get the benefit and those horrible things happen to other people -- or that was what they wanted.

At every turn, Trump doubles down and divides America. Do we turn the other cheek because "some of them are good people"?

Good people are sometimes wrong. Sometimes they fuck up. Sometimes they're too stubborn to admit they're wrong. But they're not going to realize it until people who they know and love get pissed off and use more than strong language.

It's easier to hate people when you don't know them. You might get through because you're their flesh and blood. Even if you don't, they need to know supporting Trump is not the only option.

I'm lucky in that my conservative dad has hated Trump since the 80s. My mom liked the Apprentice because they showed "smart people still being idiots" but admitted Trump would ruin America.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:54 pm

The thought occurred to me today that maturity to me might be the ability to support a position that will further a greater good, but result in a personal sacrifice or disadvantage.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:55 pm

I'm with Zarathud on this one. The time for polite disagreement is over. I chose to start with our resident self proclaimed asshole. It was a conscious choice. I don't really care that it's an ugly choice. I've always struggled with my own inner asshole. It's clearly the age of letting your asshole flag fly. That it puts me in conflict with other assholes is a net positive, imo.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:33 pm

Fireball wrote:Do your parents support Trump as he is tearing children away from their parents and throwing them into cages? Do they support him as he is shitting on NATO and kowtowing to Russia? Do they support him as he’s trying to undo gay rights and choice and voting rights with his Supreme Court pick?

People who support these things are horrible people. Do your mom and dad get a special exemption because you love them?

My mom supports Trump only in as much as she voted for him. After she left the ballot box, her interest in whatever was going on disappeared. She doesn't support or not support children being put in cages because she's not aware any were actually put into cages. She literally does not watch or read the news at all.

I have a hard time saying that a person who voted for Trump just to get a conservative Supreme Justice seat and then tuned out of politics is as equally bad as someone who voted for Trump because he was white-power friendly and would do something about the gays. By that logic, people who break the speed limit are as bad as rapists and murderers, because they both broke the law.

I think we assume that other people are as well-versed in politics and as interested in it as we are on this board, and the fact is, they're not. The sad fact is, most people out there don't really give two shits about who's in the White House. They're too busy putting food on the table, and aside from catching a headline here or there they don't have a clue what's actually going on. Willfully ignorant? Sure. Horrible people? I wouldn't want my entire day to day life judged by five minutes at the ballot box.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:55 pm

When did the Washington Post turn into the Onion?

I don’t know Kavanaugh the judge. But Kavanaugh the carpool dad is one great guy.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:57 pm

Note that while I did call out educated, that wasn't the only thing I mentioned. I also said, "introspective." Living your life as a Republican, voting Republican, living Republican, and then then being confronted by Trump... that has got to be some world-breaking cognitive dissonance. Not everyone - at any education level - can shake that and change their worldview that easily.

Note that I'm not actually addressing those who see Trump for what he is and support him because of it, or those who see the harm Trump causes others, but support him because they, personally, benefit. Those people really are horrible human beings.

As to asshole flags, I keep mine folded and under the bed. I have no intention of flying it. You just end up getting into a flagpole-comparing contest with the neighbors that never ends, and everyone ends up worse for it. I'll be angry. I won't hate.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:59 pm

Zarathud wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:19 pm When you support actions that hurt people, do you have any right to be protected from angry people who have been hurt?

Trump declared openly that he was a horrible person, would be a horrible leader, and would be horrible to many people. Some people decided that didn't matter because they would get the benefit and those horrible things happen to other people -- or that was what they wanted.

At every turn, Trump doubles down and divides America. Do we turn the other cheek because "some of them are good people"?

Good people are sometimes wrong. Sometimes they fuck up. Sometimes they're too stubborn to admit they're wrong. But they're not going to realize it until people who they know and love get pissed off and use more than strong language.

It's easier to hate people when you don't know them. You might get through because you're their flesh and blood. Even if you don't, they need to know supporting Trump is not the only option.

I'm lucky in that my conservative dad has hated Trump since the 80s. My mom liked the Apprentice because they showed "smart people still being idiots" but admitted Trump would ruin America.

So what you are saying is anyone who has had a loved one killed or injured by an illegal alien the people who support open borders shouldn't expect the police to protect them?

Like most things when you endorse inappropriate behavior in one direction you should be prepared to see it in the other.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:03 am

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:55 pm I'm with Zarathud on this one. The time for polite disagreement is over. I chose to start with our resident self proclaimed asshole. It was a conscious choice. I don't really care that it's an ugly choice. I've always struggled with my own inner asshole. It's clearly the age of letting your asshole flag fly. That it puts me in conflict with other assholes is a net positive, imo.

One should be cautious when they choose to end politeness. You may not like a world absent politeness. Make no mistake that conduct by one side will be reciprocated by the other. The world may soon be inhabited by nothing but blind people.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:06 am

You'll Hate This Post On Brett Kavanaugh And Free Speech by Mr Fed

You're going to hate this post. You're going to hate it because it's about what I decided to write about, not what you want me to write about. It's about Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh, but it's only about a very narrow issue — his treatment of free speech law under the First Amendment as a judge on the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. It doesn't talk about what he'll overturn, or about how radical or mainstream he is on any other issue, or his general method of constitutional interpretation, or the inside baseball of how he got appointed. It doesn't advance or rebut a legal realist position about whether judges make up logic to get to their desired result. It doesn't discuss whether he spells the nation's doom or its triumph. It doesn't even address his take on the free exercise or establishment clauses of the First Amendment — it only addresses the speech/press/assembly/petition clauses. It does not, outside of this sentence, acknowledge your Very Important Argument that by merely choosing what to talk about I am engaging in a partisan political act. It is I, Ken, here stomping defiantly on all your fond desires.

Good. Now that we've got that behind us, let's talk about Brett Kavanaugh's free speech record.

Here's the bullet: Kavanaugh has been an appellate judge for 12 years and has written many opinions on free speech issues. They trend very protective of free speech, both in substance and in rhetoric. His opinions are consistent with the Supreme Court's strong protection of free speech rights this century. People who buy into the "conservatives are weaponizing the First Amendment" narrative will see him as a strong advocate of that movement, in that he has applied the First Amendment to campaign finance laws, telecommunications regulation, and other aspects of the regulatory state. But he's also demonstrated fidelity to free speech principles in classic speech scenarios. Even when he concurs in a First Amendment decision, he frequently writes a separate opinion to clarify his analytical approach to the problem. He's quoted First Amendment guru Eugene Volokh — one of the leading voices in free speech analysis and a strong defender of speech rights.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:31 am

Rip wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:03 am
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:55 pm I'm with Zarathud on this one. The time for polite disagreement is over. I chose to start with our resident self proclaimed asshole. It was a conscious choice. I don't really care that it's an ugly choice. I've always struggled with my own inner asshole. It's clearly the age of letting your asshole flag fly. That it puts me in conflict with other assholes is a net positive, imo.
One should be cautious when they choose to end politeness. You may not like a world absent politeness. Make no mistake that conduct by one side will be reciprocated by the other. The world may soon be inhabited by nothing but blind people.

It wasn't me that ended the fucking politeness. Don't try to use my civility against me. You'll find my civility is barely a facade.

If you're so concerned about the world, stop poking peoples' eyes out then complaining when it is reciprocated.

You are just the worst sort of person.

You. Are going to lecture me. On civility. Bless. You.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:34 am

Moliere wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:06 am <snip>

I don't hate that Mr. Fed writes about Free Speech. That's his bread and butter after all. I just don't care about it like he cares about it at the moment. It's the one thing that the US does better than anyone else. It's under assault, but not from the traditional vectors.

Shrug.

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:59 am

geezer wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:00 pm

Apparently they want to take health insurance away from my wife. They may believe that there are "some good people on both sides," even though one side believes my son is subhuman and should go back to Africa despite the fact that he was born in Austin, Tx. So you tell me - are those "good" people?

I have a good friend who is exactly my age, self employed as a mechanical engineer and brilliant. He also was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer about 6 months ago. He's fighting it tooth and nail, but depends on his insurance coverage under the ACA. The fine people who support Trump believe that he's not worthy of living.

My wife was at risk of death due to the rupture of the placenta during her pregnancy. The same fine people would like to take away her right to the abortion that saved her life and her fertility.

These same good people support previously unfathomable levels of graft and corruption at the highest levels. They support undermining our alliances and appeasing dictators. They support treating asylum seekers like animals.

Fuck them. No, these are not good people. I've never felt this kind of contempt for my fellow countrymen before.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:23 am

Many of those people don't *want*, don't *like*, and won't *be happy* at any of those things. Most of those people are completely ignorant of those things because they're so disconnected from the impact their actions and decisions are having. They aren't taking joy in people dying, they're simply blind to the fact that people dying is the effect of what they're doing.

I know I'm setting myself up for more gooey hatred and anger, but I don't believe that someone ignorantly supporting X without understanding X in the least is the moral equivalent of someone who actively supports and takes pleasure in the horrific side effects of X on Y.

They're ignorant, or they're un-self-aware enough to overcome their mistake, which can be contemptible and worthy of scorn, but they're not the same as someone taking away someone's insurance just for the joy of watching them die.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:24 am

Rip wrote:
One should be cautious when they choose to end politeness. You may not like a world absent politeness. Make no mistake that conduct by one side will be reciprocated by the other. The world may soon be inhabited by nothing but blind people.

The classic I'm rubber you're glue defense, we expect nothing less.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:32 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:23 am Many of those people don't *want*, don't *like*, and won't *be happy* at any of those things. Most of those people are completely ignorant of those things because they're so disconnected from the impact their actions and decisions are having. They aren't taking joy in people dying, they're simply blind to the fact that people dying is the effect of what they're doing.

I know I'm setting myself up for more gooey hatred and anger, but I don't believe that someone ignorantly supporting X without understanding X in the least is the moral equivalent of someone who actively supports and takes pleasure in the horrific side effects of X on Y.

They're ignorant, or they're un-self-aware enough to overcome their mistake, which can be contemptible and worthy of scorn, but they're not the same as someone taking away someone's insurance just for the joy of watching them die.

I can sort of see where you are coming from, but when you support taking away health insurance which Trump voters overwhelmingly do, you are defacto just fine with people dying. If you are part of the 30% of Americans that support family separation of asylum seekers, you are choosing to support an evil policy. I don't think that's something that can be excused. I'm sure any number of them would feel sad that the policies they support lead to the death of my friend, but they still happily and vociferously support taking away his health care, and their deeds matter a lot more than their words.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:35 am

Ignorance of the outlaw is no excuse.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:42 am

Blackhawk wrote:Many of those people don't *want*, don't *like*, and won't *be happy* at any of those things. Most of those people are completely ignorant of those things because they're so disconnected from the impact their actions and decisions are having. They aren't taking joy in people dying, they're simply blind to the fact that people dying is the effect of what they're doing.

THAT is why you must speak to the blind. Loudly. Impolitely if necessary. Yell and say bad words if you must.

The only way to get through is for those people to see "real Americans" get angry enough to catch their attention. So they can't hide behind Rip's moving the goalposts or disingenuous bullshit (in fine form as usual BTW).

You're not going to convince the STIGGINIT crowd, the bots, the racists, the true believers, or the other Deplorables. But you don't have to. If the blind finally hear there's something wrong, they have a chance to help redeem America.

Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:44 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:23 am Many of those people don't *want*, don't *like*, and won't *be happy* at any of those things. Most of those people are completely ignorant of those things because they're so disconnected from the impact their actions and decisions are having. They aren't taking joy in people dying, they're simply blind to the fact that people dying is the effect of what they're doing.

I know I'm setting myself up for more gooey hatred and anger, but I don't believe that someone ignorantly supporting X without understanding X in the least is the moral equivalent of someone who actively supports and takes pleasure in the horrific side effects of X on Y.

They're ignorant, or they're un-self-aware enough to overcome their mistake, which can be contemptible and worthy of scorn, but they're not the same as someone taking away someone's insurance just for the joy of watching them die.

Hey Blackhawk - Quit it with all this nuance stuff. Stop trying to empathize with those you can’t easily understand. It’s not important that you imagine what it’s like to walk in someone else’s shoes. Just pick your tribe and stick with it.

Geeze, man, get with the program already!

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:53 am

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:31 am
Rip wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:03 am
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:55 pm I'm with Zarathud on this one. The time for polite disagreement is over. I chose to start with our resident self proclaimed asshole. It was a conscious choice. I don't really care that it's an ugly choice. I've always struggled with my own inner asshole. It's clearly the age of letting your asshole flag fly. That it puts me in conflict with other assholes is a net positive, imo.
One should be cautious when they choose to end politeness. You may not like a world absent politeness. Make no mistake that conduct by one side will be reciprocated by the other. The world may soon be inhabited by nothing but blind people.
It wasn't me that ended the fucking politeness. Don't try to use my civility against me. You'll find my civility is barely a facade.

If you're so concerned about the world, stop poking peoples' eyes out then complaining when it is reciprocated.

You are just the worst sort of person.

You. Are going to lecture me. On civility. Bless. You.

I'm pretty much always polite, whether I agree with you or not.

I'm always civil.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:56 am

Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:24 am
Rip wrote:
One should be cautious when they choose to end politeness. You may not like a world absent politeness. Make no mistake that conduct by one side will be reciprocated by the other. The world may soon be inhabited by nothing but blind people.
The classic I'm rubber you're glue defense, we expect nothing less.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I'm never impolite.

Try again.

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:17 am

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:07 pm I'm willing to give the average (edit: 1930's) German person a pass for keeping their heads down when brown shirts are beating the everliving shit out of anyone who steps out of line. I'm not willing to give the average German a pass because Germany was being made great again.

Oh, this is great stuff! I'm

Ach so

sharing this everywhere I go, eh! Thanks comrade!

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:25 am

em2nought wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:17 am <snip>

No one is even talking about you or to you.

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:30 am

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:25 am
em2nought wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:17 am <snip>
No one is even talking about you or to you.

It's a lonely life we Russian bots lead.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:43 am

Rip wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:56 am I'm never impolite.

But you're extremely offensive by admitted intent.

I wrote a whole thing that went after you and everything you've written here about yourself on OO, but I'm not so far gone as to use what people have shared against them. Not yet. So I erased it.

Don't give me some bullshit that wrapping your crap in politeness is some virtue. You use politeness as a weapon to restrict your target's options, not because of some supposed desire to keep things civil. I've seen it in cleverer people than you, and they're always surprised when their nose gets figuratively popped when people tire of the facade.

Be careful what you wish for? I'm damn near wishing for an eye poking contest and be done with it. Anything less has resulted in Drumpf. At least if I lose I won't have to watch your country burn down. We're not talking about Bush. We're talking about an anti-conservative, anti-liberal force for objectively terrible things who is almost certainly on the take from Russians wishing your country harm. Why on earth won't you shut the fuck up your usual pot stirring for once in your political life and get on the side of right? You can go back to torturing snowflakes after this is over.

What is the matter with you?

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:44 am

em2nought wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:30 am It's a lonely life we Russian bots lead.

Not lonely enough. *wink*

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:30 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:23 am Many of those people don't *want*, don't *like*, and won't *be happy* at any of those things. Most of those people are completely ignorant of those things because they're so disconnected from the impact their actions and decisions are having. They aren't taking joy in people dying, they're simply blind to the fact that people dying is the effect of what they're doing.

I know I'm setting myself up for more gooey hatred and anger, but I don't believe that someone ignorantly supporting X without understanding X in the least is the moral equivalent of someone who actively supports and takes pleasure in the horrific side effects of X on Y.

They're ignorant, or they're un-self-aware enough to overcome their mistake, which can be contemptible and worthy of scorn, but they're not the same as someone taking away someone's insurance just for the joy of watching them die.

Sure - I think you're completely right. That said, you have to question how long and to what degree you allow people to remain willfully ignorant before they need to take some responsibility for their behavior. I think most would agree with me that initially voting for Trump can be forgiven. It's the continued support, or the intent to vote for this cruelty *again* that pushes you over the line in my book.

I get that many/most that voted for Trump didn't do so while gleefully anticipating the day my wife is no longer insurable, and I understand that when BillyBob was in that voting booth, he (probably) wasn't intending to leave from there and head to a neo-Nazi rally.

I also understand that the guy who drives drunk and ploughs into an innocent pedestrian didn't start drinking that night planning run someone down at 2am. And you know what? I'm a forgiving sort. I'm not the guy that would go into court and angrily demand an eye for an eye and hope that drunk driver's life was ruined forever. BUT.... when they do the same thing AGAIN, and kill someone? That's sort of a different story.

There are, of course, some people who simply, truly, don't realize or believe that Donald Trump and his sycophantic administrators are doing any harm. They simply don't believe that he's causing people to lose health coverage, or that he's lying about whatever x, y or z accomplishment they think is good for them. I'm not sure what you do about those people, but it's tragic that they have even a modicum of an abstract right to decide who runs this country.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:06 am

Rip wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:24 am
Rip wrote:
One should be cautious when they choose to end politeness. You may not like a world absent politeness. Make no mistake that conduct by one side will be reciprocated by the other. The world may soon be inhabited by nothing but blind people.
The classic I'm rubber you're glue defense, we expect nothing less.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
I'm never impolite.

Try again.

Trolling is impolite.

Bullshit in a velvet bag is is still bullshit.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:41 am

The bullshit doesn't always come in a velvet bag. It often got nasty about Hillary and Obama.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 am

It's not as though Donald Trump ran as a reasonable, level-headed guy with some good but outside-the-box ideas. He ran as a racist, campaigned using racist language. He promised to attack the rights of women, to weaken our international alliances, and to take away health care from the poor and the sick. No one can credibly claim that they didn't know he would do these things when they voted for him. No one gets a pass for voting for the guy who went around the country encouraging his supporters to attack protestors at his rallies, calling Mexicans racist, and attacking women in the most base and misogynistic ways. No one.