SCOTUS Watch

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 am

One bit of my positions doesn't seem to be clear: I'm not excusing the ignorant. They're don't have clean hands. They're just not all equivalent, and lumping them together with the deliberately cruel and throwing rocks at them all is counter-productive. You just push them to listen even less and to huddle down with the truly hateful.

We're creating a dehumanized 'them' so that they'll be easier to hate, just like they are doing to us. That's how you escalate, not how you recover.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:06 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:59 am One bit of my positions doesn't seem to be clear: I'm not excusing the ignorant. They're don't have clean hands. They're just not all equivalent, and lumping them together with the deliberately cruel and throwing rocks at them all is counter-productive. You just push them to listen even less and to huddle down with the truly hateful.

You presume they are redeemable. I do not. You presume American democracy can recover from the fatal damage they did to it. I do not. You presume that they could be moved to care about the victims of their vote. I do not.

Anyone who was ignorant that Trump was a racist, misogynist, Russian-stooge, democracy-destroying monster has to be so far gone down a rabbit hole that they can never be reached.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:09 am

Fireball wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:06 am
You presume they are redeemable. I do not. You presume American democracy can recover from the fatal damage they did to it. I do not. You presume that they could be moved to care about the victims of their vote. I do not.

Anyone who was ignorant that Trump was a racist, misogynist, Russian-stooge, democracy-destroying monster has to be so far gone down a rabbit hole that they can never be reached.

And I also feel that your brand of near-extremism is a big part of the problem. It drives people who would previously just have disagreed with you to hate you and stand against you.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:16 am

Saying that someone who votes for an avowed racist is responsible for the consequences of that racism, and is a part of that racism, is not extreme.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:19 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:09 am
Fireball wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:06 am
You presume they are redeemable. I do not. You presume American democracy can recover from the fatal damage they did to it. I do not. You presume that they could be moved to care about the victims of their vote. I do not.

Anyone who was ignorant that Trump was a racist, misogynist, Russian-stooge, democracy-destroying monster has to be so far gone down a rabbit hole that they can never be reached.
And I also feel that your brand of near-extremism is a big part of the problem. It drives people who would previously just have disagreed with you to hate you and stand against you.

I think he is just frustrated with how quickly the gains we have made as a society have eroded. Trump isn't Hitler, he is Nero, tweeting while democracy burns.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:20 am

Fireball wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:16 am Saying that someone who votes for an avowed racist is responsible for the consequences of that racism, and is a part of that racism, is not extreme.

Were that all you'd said, I'd agree with you.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:20 am

Trump is more Moussolini than he is Hitler, but he’s more Hitler than he is Nero. Trump is a truly evil person with NO redeemable traits, and he made that plainly clear before the election.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:21 am

We recovered from Nixon. It's not too late.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:23 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:21 am We recovered from Nixon. It's not too late.

Look around - that GOP is long gone. It is too late. It is a matter of what comes next. To be fair, there is a chance we self-correct but I'd put it at well < 1%. The issues with the Senate are almost certainly insurmountable now.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:28 am

Zarathud wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:21 am We recovered from Nixon. It's not too late.

Nixon was a fucking saint compared to Trump. Nixon didn’t undermine our nation on the global stage. He didn’t encourage violence. He was a racist but he didn’t encourage racism the way Trump has.

Also, at the time that Nixon was elected, the GOP was a reasonable party. Today it is a 100% anti-American movement, opposed to everything good in our country.

Fitzy · Post by **Fitzy** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:50 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pm Political parties are an all-or-nothing proposition. You get the whole shebang. Even if we (the OO majority) agreed with Trump on something, we wouldn't support him because we'd have to support his racism/homophobia/etc along with it.

People around here (also Trump country) support Trump because supporting the Democrats would mean supporting positions they absolutely can't bring themselves to support. They may be anti-Trump, but they feel the same way about things like abortion that we do about Trump's racist border policies.

So, from their perspective, are they going to choose to be bad people for supporting his racism, or bad people for supporting his opposition's (to them) infanticide? Although I may not agree with them at all, I can sympathize with the fact that they're facing an impossible dilemma. I won't damn them as 'horrible people' for it.

Thank you, this was very well said.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:10 am

I feel split between Blackhawk's reasonable reconciliation argument, and Fireball's sometimes manic outrage. On a daily basis.

One small point that might bring the two positions a bit closer is that I think Fireball assumes a LOT more political awareness across the voting public than actually exists. Anecdotally I have a brother who up until Trump, was COMPLETELY ignorant of politics at any level. His wife even more so. He was focused on work, wife, kids, church, etc. His life was fine (good to great even, in terms of stability, economy, quality of life etc). He pays a lot more attention now, but maybe it's too late.

My hypothesis is there were a LOT of people pulling the lever for Trump that didn't really know about the implied racism, the constant lying, the "fill in nasty trait here". I'm also not excusing that...a responsible citizen has a duty to inform themselves before voting. Ha! But I do agree with Blackhawk's take on this, that THOSE people are the potential allies for the rest of us who oppose Trump and his world view.

IMO it's the ones that pulled the lever for Trump, with knowledge, that are lost (to potential conversion) and truly deplorable. That includes the full hard-on Trumpers, and those that don't like him or his ideas, but have a pet issue they think he will support due to his barely GOP party affiliation.

As a side note, I wonder if historians 50 years from now will say that the American civilization's mistake was assuming they had completely won the Cold War by the end of the 20th century, and barely discussed in the 2000's - fait accompli and all that. Yet the final battle in the war was yet to come from Putin, with a decades in the making strategic blow in 2016. In other words, we have been Rope a Doped.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:25 am

Fireball wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:06 am
Anyone who was ignorant that Trump was a racist, misogynist, Russian-stooge, democracy-destroying monster has to be so far gone down a rabbit hole that they can never be reached.

I agree that it was obvious to anyone minimally plugged in to political news that Trump is who he is before the election.

However, there are a lot of people out there who read essentially no political news, and whose political knowledge comes from periodic glimpses of cable TV news. Anyone like that would probably not have a clear understanding of who Trump and Clinton are, and of the consequences of their vote.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:26 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:10 amAs a side note, I wonder if historians 50 years from now will say that the American civilization's mistake was assuming they had completely won the Cold War by the end of the 20th century, and barely discussed in the 2000's - fait accompli and all that. Yet the final battle in the war was yet to come from Putin, with a decades in the making strategic blow in 2016. In other words, we have been Rope a Doped.

I don't think we were rope a doped. Putin took advantage of existing weaknesses. Quick list:

One a "Constitutional debt" left over from slavery - many states were created to keep balance prior to the civil war. No one likely could have expected even after the civil war that people would pack themselves into fewer states and lead to incredibly skewed representation.

Two the emergence of a craven and power hungry minority that would use every loophole and Constitutional imbalance to seize power at any cost. They built a media machine to boost signal and dog whistled their way into an overwhelming position to govern with a strong minority.

Three a dogmatic belief in markets uber alles in large segments of the population. This led to massive economic inequality that put pressure on our political system. Especially when demographics began to shift against the white population which maintained a strong economic advantage.

Four the eventual and continued politicization of the last 'neutral' outpost to wit the court system by obstructing and abusing the Judicial nomination process to entrench the minority viewpoint.

Putin only had to give it a comparatively little push after putting a bunch of markers down all over the place to luck into a win. It was a bare win but it will likely be seen as the end of our Democratic experiment in this form.

Edit: If it wasn't Putin - it would have been something else. This system had inherent flaws that almost certainly can't be fixed. I am relatively sure future political scientists will understand that our Constitution was *broken* from the start. Accidentally but still broken. There is almost no way to fix the Senate. Even one state rejecting a change stops change.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:33 am

Fitzy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:50 am
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pm Political parties are an all-or-nothing proposition. You get the whole shebang. Even if we (the OO majority) agreed with Trump on something, we wouldn't support him because we'd have to support his racism/homophobia/etc along with it.

People around here (also Trump country) support Trump because supporting the Democrats would mean supporting positions they absolutely can't bring themselves to support. They may be anti-Trump, but they feel the same way about things like abortion that we do about Trump's racist border policies.

So, from their perspective, are they going to choose to be bad people for supporting his racism, or bad people for supporting his opposition's (to them) infanticide? Although I may not agree with them at all, I can sympathize with the fact that they're facing an impossible dilemma. I won't damn them as 'horrible people' for it.

Thank you, this was very well said.

I also agree that I think that abortion more than anything else is poisoning our politics. If you firmly believed that thousands of babies were getting murdered every year, what wouldn't you do or put up with in order to stop that?

Fretmute · Post by **Fretmute** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:34 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pmSo, from their perspective, are they going to choose to be bad people for supporting his racism, or bad people for supporting his opposition's (to them) infanticide? Although I may not agree with them at all, I can sympathize with the fact that they're facing an impossible dilemma. I won't damn them as 'horrible people' for it.

Yet it's their fault that some children may never see their parents again. They don't get a pass.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:37 am

El Guapo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:33 am I also agree that I think that abortion more than anything else is poisoning our politics. If you firmly believed that thousands of babies were getting murdered every year, what wouldn't you do or put up with in order to stop that?

And it's a view that isn't unique to Conservatives. Nor are Republicans united in their belief.

Code: Select all

A third of Republicans are pro-choice
Share of poll respondents by views on abortion, June 2017

PARTY IDENTIFICATION	LEGAL IN ALL/MOST CASES		ILLEGAL IN ALL/MOST CASES
Republican	                    34%	                         65%
Independent	                    60	                         38
Democrat	                    75	                         22

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:38 am

I'm pretty sure I'm having some sort of nervous breakdown given that everything I care about in the world is coming to an end, and I'm not expressing myself as clearly as I like. For that, I apologize.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:10 amOne small point that might bring the two positions a bit closer is that I think Fireball assumes a LOT more political awareness across the voting public than actually exists.

I reject the notion that anyone informed enough to know when and where to vote was unaware of Trump's statements on at least one of these topics: race, women, health care, immigration, or Obama's birth certificate, any one of which would prevent any decent person from voting for him. If they were so torn between voting for a man who encouraged violence at his rallies and who was OPENLY RACIST and voting for a woman who is pro-choice, they had other options on the ballot. NOTHING can justify voting for Trump.

Some of them have seen the light, and turned on Trump. Bad people don't have to remain bad people. People who weren't decent people in November 2016 might have evolved into something better by July 2018.

But anyone who STILL supports him, 18 months in — after Charlottesville, after his actions towards our NATO allies, after his racist attacks on NFL players, after his actions against children — CHILDREN — at the border — they are irredeemable. Can anyone argue with that?

As a side note, I wonder if historians 50 years from now will say that the American civilization's mistake was assuming they had completely won the Cold War by the end of the 20th century, and barely discussed in the 2000's - fait accompli and all that. Yet the final battle in the war was yet to come from Putin, with a decades in the making strategic blow in 2016. In other words, we have been Rope a Doped.

The greatest tragedy of the 1990s is that Boris Yeltsin was the wrong guy. He wasn't up to the moment, and in his weakness and failure he handed Russia to Putin. And in November 2016, we handed America to Putin, too.

Life is a nightmare, and there's no escape.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:41 am

malchior wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:26 amEdit: If it wasn't Putin - it would have been something else. This system had inherent flaws that almost certainly can't be fixed. I am relatively sure future political scientists will understand that our Constitution was *broken* from the start. Accidentally but still broken. There is almost no way to fix the Senate. Even one state rejecting a change stops change.

We have a terrible system of government. Every presidential system — now including ours — has toppled over into autocracy. The Founding Fathers were not nearly as wise as we like to pretend. They saddled us with a fatally flawed system of government. The tragedy is that we now know how to devise good democratic republican electoral systems — look at the amazing one we gave Germany after World War II. If we had Germany's system of government, we wouldn't be in this mess.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:47 am

The funny thing is our political scientists like to deride the UK for not having a written Constitution. None of their 'rights' are sacrosanct! And the 2nd Amendment folks mostly feel that way. However, in our case the Constitution will be what ultimately sinks us. The inflexibility of this system to adapt to major changes led to a civil war within a 100 years and 150 years later the probable end of that Republic. It will be seen as a complete failure someday. The question will be probably become could have we achieved what we achieved *and* adapted to change. I don't know but I'd like to think so.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:48 am

Fretmute wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:34 am
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pmSo, from their perspective, are they going to choose to be bad people for supporting his racism, or bad people for supporting his opposition's (to them) infanticide? Although I may not agree with them at all, I can sympathize with the fact that they're facing an impossible dilemma. I won't damn them as 'horrible people' for it.
Yet it's their fault that some children may never see their parents again. They don't get a pass.

Again, I'm not giving anybody a pass. Like I said, none of their hands are clean.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:48 am

Fireball wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:38 am I'm pretty sure I'm having some sort of nervous breakdown given that everything I care about in the world is coming to an end, and I'm not expressing myself as clearly as I like. For that, I apologize.

Then seek help. Find a therapist.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:49 am

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:10 am I feel split between Blackhawk's reasonable reconciliation argument, and Fireball's sometimes manic outrage. On a daily basis.

So do I. I feel the same deep rage and venom that everyone else does. I refuse to let it color my conscious thoughts or actions, though.

Fretmute · Post by **Fretmute** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:49 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:10 am I feel split between Blackhawk's reasonable reconciliation argument, and Fireball's sometimes manic outrage. On a daily basis.
So do I. I feel the same deep rage and venom that everyone else does. I refuse to let it color my conscious thoughts or actions, though.

If that's an option for you, it's not the same rage.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:02 pm

Fireball wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:38 am I reject the notion that anyone informed enough to know when and where to vote was unaware of Trump's statements on at least one of these topics: race, women, health care, immigration, or Obama's birth certificate, any one of which would prevent any decent person from voting for him.

Reject it all you want, but that doesn't change the reality that these people exist. LOTS of them.

Anecdotally, I have many friends and family who knew very little - if anything - about what Trump actually said, did, or stood for...and remain ignorant to this day. They don't watch the news, they don't hear the racist and sexist things he says, they deliberately choose to have an extremely minimal interest in politics in general...they simply don't pay attention at all. However, they feel aligned to what they believe to be conservative values and feel it's their civic duty to vote. So they pull the R lever without literally any deeper thought than "I don't like abortion" or "I've heard that Hillary character is kinda shady".

It's utterly infuriating that their completely uninformed vote counts just as much as anyone else's, but that's the system we have. And when those low-information voters are subsequently attacked as being awful human beings because of voting for Trump, it's a natural human reaction to get a little defensive about it. Hence why I generally consider that activity to be wildly unconstructive.

Those who are proudly and willingly deplorable (like the ones we interact with here), that's a whole different story.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:04 pm

Which is why I'm opposed to get out the vote campaigns.

Fretmute · Post by **Fretmute** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 pm

Those people are actively increasing the suffering in the world. I don’t care a bit if the truth hurts their feelings.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:12 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:02 pm
Fireball wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:38 am I reject the notion that anyone informed enough to know when and where to vote was unaware of Trump's statements on at least one of these topics: race, women, health care, immigration, or Obama's birth certificate, any one of which would prevent any decent person from voting for him.
Reject it all you want, but that doesn't change the reality that these people exist. LOTS of them.

Anecdotally, I have many friends and family who knew very little - if anything - about what Trump actually said, did, or stood for...and remain ignorant to this day. They don't watch the news, they don't hear the racist and sexist things he says, they deliberately choose to have an extremely minimal interest in politics in general...they simply don't pay attention at all. However, they feel aligned to what they believe to be conservative values and feel it's their civic duty to vote. So they pull the R lever without literally any deeper thought than "I don't like abortion" or "I've heard that Hillary character is kinda shady".

It's utterly infuriating that their completely uninformed vote counts just as much as anyone else's, but that's the system we have. And when those low-information voters are subsequently attacked as being awful human beings because of voting for Trump, it's a natural human reaction to get a little defensive about it. Hence why I generally consider that activity to be wildly unconstructive.

Those who are proudly and willingly deplorable (like the ones we interact with here), that's a whole different story.

I agree. I would add that I still judge low-information voters for voting for Trump, and that there's increasingly little justification for being a low-information voter. BUT the upshot is that there are a significant number of people who voted for Trump who should be reachable.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:33 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:02 pmReject it all you want, but that doesn't change the reality that these people exist. LOTS of them.

Anecdotally, I have many friends and family who knew very little - if anything - about what Trump actually said, did, or stood for...and remain ignorant to this day.

They are unaware that he ever called Mexicans "rapists"? They're unaware that he ever called Obama a non-American? Seriously, they have no knowledge of anything one of the most public people in the world has ever said or done in the last 20 years? I don't believe it.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:15 pm

:

Fretmute wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 pm Those people are actively increasing the suffering in the world. I don’t care a bit if the truth hurts their feelings.

Thanks Fret. This nicely summarizes my feelings and directly influences my recent (post 2016) behaviour, including but not limited to my changed view from rip the dancing monkey forum member to rip a force for ill in the world forum member.

If you're actively, intentionally increasing suffering in the world, you're a bad person. If, when confronted with the facts you still refuse to acknowledge that harm, you're a bad person.

I didn't call out deplorables nearly enough and the world (including many Americans) has to suffer at the hands of Drumpf.

No. More.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:30 pm

Fretmute wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:34 am
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pmSo, from their perspective, are they going to choose to be bad people for supporting his racism, or bad people for supporting his opposition's (to them) infanticide? Although I may not agree with them at all, I can sympathize with the fact that they're facing an impossible dilemma. I won't damn them as 'horrible people' for it.
Yet it's their fault that some children may never see their parents again. They don't get a pass.

So for the person who sees both as wrong they are stuck feeling they don't want either. Thus why so many tune out and don't even bother. If there is a representation issue in the country it is because of the non-voters not some redrawing of voting district lines or stupid Russian propaganda. A big chunk of the population has never voted and never will. Another good chunk rarely do.

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-an ... 0-overview

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:36 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:15 pm :
Fretmute wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 pm Those people are actively increasing the suffering in the world. I don’t care a bit if the truth hurts their feelings.
Thanks Fret. This nicely summarizes my feelings and directly influences my recent (post 2016) behaviour, including but not limited to my changed view from rip the dancing monkey forum member to rip a force for ill in the world forum member.

If you're actively, intentionally increasing suffering in the world, you're a bad person. If, when confronted with the facts you still refuse to acknowledge that harm, you're a bad person.

I didn't call out deplorables nearly enough and the world (including many Americans) has to suffer at the hands of Drumpf.

No. More.

I agree 1,000% with the anger, although the important thing now is less debating exactly how much censure Trump voters deserve, and more figuring out how to get as many people as possible (including people who voted for Trump in 2016) to vote against Trump and the GOP in 2018 and 2020.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:37 pm

Fireball wrote:They are unaware that he ever called Mexicans "rapists"? They're unaware that he ever called Obama a non-American? Seriously, they have no knowledge of anything one of the most public people in the world has ever said or done in the last 20 years? I don't believe it.

I would bet a paycheck - hell, I'd bet 6 months pay - that my mom knew neither of those things before she voted.

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:40 pm

Fretmute wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 am
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:49 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:10 am I feel split between Blackhawk's reasonable reconciliation argument, and Fireball's sometimes manic outrage. On a daily basis.
So do I. I feel the same deep rage and venom that everyone else does. I refuse to let it color my conscious thoughts or actions, though.
If that's an option for you, it's not the same rage.

I'm a lot closer to Fireball's existential despair, I think. The things I read on a daily basis are probably giving me an ulcer and are certainly leaving me very depressed, and yet I can't stop watching as everything falls apart. Watching people like Rip cheer while shit falls down doesn't exactly help. It honestly is really difficult not to personally blame trumpists. I have inlaws that have fully bought into the whole Fox mindset and I just have to leave the room. I can't talk with them or really even be in their presence. I just feel like all that rage is barely contained.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:40 pm

I would sincerely hope that you had no inkling before the election that she was going to vote for Trump, then.

YellowKing wrote:
Fireball wrote:They are unaware that he ever called Mexicans "rapists"? They're unaware that he ever called Obama a non-American? Seriously, they have no knowledge of anything one of the most public people in the world has ever said or done in the last 20 years? I don't believe it.
I would bet a paycheck - hell, I'd bet 6 months pay - that my mom knew neither of those things before she voted.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:49 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:37 pm
Fireball wrote:They are unaware that he ever called Mexicans "rapists"? They're unaware that he ever called Obama a non-American? Seriously, they have no knowledge of anything one of the most public people in the world has ever said or done in the last 20 years? I don't believe it.
I would bet a paycheck - hell, I'd bet 6 months pay - that my mom knew neither of those things before she voted.

Same with my mother-in-law. Her knowledge on either of those things would be limited to seeing a headline, at best.

As of last weekend, she literally knew absolutely nothing about kids being separated from their parents because, and I quote, "I don't ever watch the news". She views anything political as "angry people screaming at each other", and simply tunes out completely as a result. Any attempts to educate her fall entirely on deaf ears. Yet, I'm sure she voted for Trump because she is anti-abortion and heard my father-in-law say how horrible Hillary was.

I simply don't have an answer for that sort of ignorance.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:50 pm

Rip wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:53 am
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:31 am
Rip wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:03 am
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:55 pm I'm with Zarathud on this one. The time for polite disagreement is over. I chose to start with our resident self proclaimed asshole. It was a conscious choice. I don't really care that it's an ugly choice. I've always struggled with my own inner asshole. It's clearly the age of letting your asshole flag fly. That it puts me in conflict with other assholes is a net positive, imo.
One should be cautious when they choose to end politeness. You may not like a world absent politeness. Make no mistake that conduct by one side will be reciprocated by the other. The world may soon be inhabited by nothing but blind people.
It wasn't me that ended the fucking politeness. Don't try to use my civility against me. You'll find my civility is barely a facade.

If you're so concerned about the world, stop poking peoples' eyes out then complaining when it is reciprocated.

You are just the worst sort of person.

You. Are going to lecture me. On civility. Bless. You.
I'm pretty much always polite, whether I agree with you or not.

I'm always civil.

You may have the letter of politeness, but you certainly don't have the spirit. Guess which one people find more important.

Fireball · Post by **Fireball** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:58 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:37 pm
Fireball wrote:They are unaware that he ever called Mexicans "rapists"? They're unaware that he ever called Obama a non-American? Seriously, they have no knowledge of anything one of the most public people in the world has ever said or done in the last 20 years? I don't believe it.
I would bet a paycheck - hell, I'd bet 6 months pay - that my mom knew neither of those things before she voted.

Why didn't you fix that? The people running around screaming like our hair was on fire that Trump was an existential threat to the United States have been proven right on everything. I can tell you that no one I know was unaware of the danger Trump presented to the United States.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:07 pm

Around here, in Trump country, people do watch the news, religiously: the local news. My impression, after many years living in rural America, is that most of them simply don't see national and international issues as having anything to do with them. Most of them have never traveled, and very, very few have ever lived anywhere that wasn't a small town. The rest of the world seems to have a certain degree of abstract unreality to it, kind of like when I watch videos of people jumping on the moon. I know it's a real place, but it is so far removed from me and my life that it doesn't seem real. That's how the locals seem to see Washington, Russia, and Mexico.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:14 pm

I had the same impression (and still do to a certain degree), however my own town (Total Population ~2200 people) passed a resolution a few years ago condemning TPP. We have no streetlights. We have no post office. Yet our local elected officials passed a 3 page resolution in 2015 against Obama and TPP.

There are absolutely people that are oblivious. There are people that are (or were) willfully ignorant. What you did on on 11/8/16 doesn't matter as much (to me) as how you respond right now. If you're still cheering all this on, you're a card-carrying deplorable and beyond redemption. If you're willfully ignorant, I question whether or not you're just a closet deplorable that's simply too afraid to let your true colors show. If you voted for this and have true regret, come find the rest of us that have been worried about the mess we're currently in for the last 2+ years.

The cliche of "elections have consequences" is playing out, here and now. And with these SCOTUS appointments (2? 2? is don on the phone) they'll have consequences for a generation (or more). It's unfathomable.