hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:44 pm
The only thing that could potentially turn a Trumper away from his orange god is a sustained economic downturn. There is quite literally nothing he can do otherwise that would cause them to break ranks.
Doubt it. Not even their own unemployment is enough to make them turn their backs on him as long as there is a support system in place. I think they need to hit true bottom without a net, ie, homelessness and missed meals, and I don't recommend it. That's no way to shift your views on one person. That or they get the violence they've been wetting the bed for for decades. The blood of patriots and all that only to finally having been truly with the tyrant, refreshing that tree of liberty they equivocate life in late 18th century with life in early 21st century over. If it comes to that, I'm kinda on the side of homelessness hunger rather than Jefferson's prophesy where we are all only x missed meals away from anarchy.
I'll be happy to go back to marginalizing them and taking back government. Kinda like no turn signal guy or walk away bankruptcy as a lifestyle choice guy.
Just keep in mind you don't need to persuade Trumpers. The far-right base has always been there and you're never going to change their minds. This was true long before Trump and will be true long after.
The key to victory is changing the minds of independents and Obama voters who voted Trump. Based on the special elections we've seen, I think this administration has done a fantastic job of doing that on their own.
Trump isn't a magical wizard, and the GOP doesn't have some foolproof cheaty way to maintain power. This is a house of cards and while it may look impressive on the outside, one little poke in November can bring it all tumbling down.
Nate Silver had an interesting twitter discussion the other day where he was talking about how you can look at Trump as either wildly popular given everything that he's done, or wildly unpopular given the economy and the stage of the presidency that he's currently in (compared to other presidents at this point).
YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:33 pm
Just keep in mind you don't need to persuade Trumpers. The far-right base has always been there and you're never going to change their minds. This was true long before Trump and will be true long after.
The key to victory is changing the minds of independents and Obama voters who voted Trump.
In recent weeks, the president and his surrogates have taken their case against Mueller increasingly public, with Giuliani and Sekulow making regular appearances on cable news as the president escalates his Twitter attacks.
Experts say the strategy just might work to limit the impact of any damaging information Mueller could reveal about Trump in the course of his investigation into the president and his associates.
"I hate to say it, but I do think the strategy has been somewhat successful," said Joe Moreno, a former prosecutor in the Department of Justice's National Security Division who is now a partner at the law firm Cadwalader.
Polling suggests that Americans are increasingly hoping for Mueller's investigation to wrap up. Month after month, the percentage of Americans who disapprove of Mueller has increased. The president's own approval rating has remained largely unchanged, even as it remains among the lowest of any president at this point in his presidency.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Of course Mueller has been saying nothing except through legal action. He's not playing a public relations game at all. Right now, airy and wispy approval or disapproval of Mueller is based entirely on punditry.
The narrative will firm up when the core indictments arrive, and it will solidify into concrete when the 2019 or 2020 "Mueller Report" is released.
Holman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:58 pm
Of course Mueller has been saying nothing except through legal action. He's not playing a public relations game at all. Right now, airy and wispy approval or disapproval of Mueller is based entirely on punditry.
The narrative will firm up when the core indictments arrive, and it will solidify into concrete when the 2019 or 2020 "Mueller Report" is released.
Erroding approval of Mueller gets Trump and co. closer to removing him. Or whatever they going to do if The Report is released.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
YellowKing wrote: ↑Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:33 pm
Just keep in mind you don't need to persuade Trumpers. The far-right base has always been there and you're never going to change their minds. This was true long before Trump and will be true long after.
The key to victory is changing the minds of independents and Obama voters who voted Trump. Based on the special elections we've seen, I think this administration has done a fantastic job of doing that on their own.
Trump isn't a magical wizard, and the GOP doesn't have some foolproof cheaty way to maintain power. This is a house of cards and while it may look impressive on the outside, one little poke in November can bring it all tumbling down.
I'm just going to keep re-reading this over and over and over and over.
hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:44 pm
The only thing that could potentially turn a Trumper away from his orange god is a sustained economic downturn. There is quite literally nothing he can do otherwise that would cause them to break ranks.
I don't know. He controls the narrative, and for his followers the narrative has become reality. All he'd need to do is point out that Obama/Ds/Libs/Socialists/Randy Rainbow were responsible for thwarting him and interfering, and his followers would double down.
GungHo wrote:Yeah that Nunes guy...not sure who invited him to either the Party or the party but I don't think he's particularly welcome. Much less so after this mess. But I've first hand knowledge of his particular base as it involves my MIL and several BILs plus their kids and then the whole family tree just sort of explodes from there. Long story longer, they're all in on Nunes. It's not the rabid in your face stuff we see from trump supporters but they are definitely there for him and given the demographics of that part of CA and that the largest minority group in play, Hispanics, have a ridiculously tough road to hoe simply to stay in the country given the current political situation we find ourselves in. Going to be very difficult get a grass roots operation going with a bunch of folks who are quite correctly worried about being here next month.
Unfortunately I think it means Nunes for another 2 years.
But yes I concur he's an idiotic
He's actually representative of the GOP over the past 2 decades.
Party over Country.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Its not just party over country, it's the worst and basest propaganda of the party over the country.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
It isn't that either. It is party perks over country. Most of those guys couldn't care less about the party or its ideology beyond what gets them the most zeros in the bank.
The FBI has fired agent Peter Strzok, who helped lead the bureau’s investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election until officials discovered he had been sending anti-Trump texts.
Aitan Goelman, Strzok’s lawyer, said FBI Deputy Director David L. Bowdich ordered the firing on Friday — even though the director of the FBI office that normally handles employee discipline had decided Strzok should face only a demotion and 60-day suspension. Goelman said the move undercuts the FBI’s repeated assurances that Strzok would be afforded the normal disciplinary process.
...
President Trump on Monday used Strzok’s firing to suggest the Russia investigation should be dropped, and the Clinton case redone.
“Agent Peter Strzok was just fired from the FBI - finally. The list of bad players in the FBI & DOJ gets longer & longer. Based on the fact that Strzok was in charge of the Witch Hunt, will it be dropped? It is a total Hoax. No Collusion, No Obstruction - I just fight back!” he wrote.
Minutes later, he added, “Just fired Agent Strzok, formerly of the FBI, was in charge of the Crooked Hillary Clinton sham investigation. It was a total fraud on the American public and should be properly redone!”
The FBI has fired agent Peter Strzok, who helped lead the bureau’s investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election until officials discovered he had been sending anti-Trump texts.
Aitan Goelman, Strzok’s lawyer, said FBI Deputy Director David L. Bowdich ordered the firing on Friday — even though the director of the FBI office that normally handles employee discipline had decided Strzok should face only a demotion and 60-day suspension. Goelman said the move undercuts the FBI’s repeated assurances that Strzok would be afforded the normal disciplinary process.
...
President Trump on Monday used Strzok’s firing to suggest the Russia investigation should be dropped, and the Clinton case redone.
“Agent Peter Strzok was just fired from the FBI - finally. The list of bad players in the FBI & DOJ gets longer & longer. Based on the fact that Strzok was in charge of the Witch Hunt, will it be dropped? It is a total Hoax. No Collusion, No Obstruction - I just fight back!” he wrote.
Minutes later, he added, “Just fired Agent Strzok, formerly of the FBI, was in charge of the Crooked Hillary Clinton sham investigation. It was a total fraud on the American public and should be properly redone!”
It's rather humorous that the Russia investigation is "fake news" to him, while the Hillary investigation was completely on the up and up, and the only thing the media got wrong was in not blaming her for more stuff...
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Bitching about your bosses is the American way. Hypocrites and their political hatchet jobs.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
Max Peck wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:26 am
There's a gofundme page up to raise money for Strzok's legal expenses. It was set up yesterday and has already hit $225k.
Wow, $225K for legal expenses? That should cover him for a couple of months, as long as he doesn't go high-powered, big name firm. :/
I imagine there's some kind of legal fee attached to everything at that level, and he does have things floating around still and isn't just free and clear. Anytime he sniffs at being called before anyone, he's going to want a lawyer. To boot, the GoFundMe isn't just for legal fees, but also for STIGGINIT to the GOP by compensating him for lost wages for them firing him. It's a catch-all.
Black Lives Matter
2021-01-20: The first good night's sleep I had in 4 years.
I can't imagine being fired costs the target legal fees, but I fully admit to having zero knowledge about it. It seems ridiculous on the face of it however.
If it's just free money, well, people are free to pick their own charities, obviously.
Paingod wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:20 pm
I think they made their whole case when they tried to blame Gates. Given the paper trails and other testimony, there's not much left to say.
Yeah, I think that's it. Popehat has a good thread on this:
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:17 pm
I can't imagine being fired costs the target legal fees, but I fully admit to having zero knowledge about it. It seems ridiculous on the face of it however.
If it's just free money, well, people are free to pick their own charities, obviously.
Being fired may not require lawyering up, but (for example) a wrongful dismissal suit would, as would a legal fight to receive compensation for lost income and/or retirement benefits. There may also be pre-existing legal expenses if he retained counsel for the Congressional hearings that he underwent.
Regardless of how the trust fund would be used, it's an interesting snapshot of anti-regime sentiment. $285k in the first day isn't all that shabby.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:17 pm
I can't imagine being fired costs the target legal fees, but I fully admit to having zero knowledge about it. It seems ridiculous on the face of it however.
If it's just free money, well, people are free to pick their own charities, obviously.
Plus, he's Union. Union fees will cover all the legal expenses associated with challenging the discipline and firing.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Paingod wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:20 pm
I think they made their whole case when they tried to blame Gates. Given the paper trails and other testimony, there's not much left to say.
Yeah, I think that's it. Popehat has a good thread on this:
skee·vy
ˈskēvē/
adjective US informal
adjective: skeevy
unpleasant, squalid, or distasteful.
"a skeevy Vegas motel"
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:17 pm
I can't imagine being fired costs the target legal fees, but I fully admit to having zero knowledge about it. It seems ridiculous on the face of it however.
If it's just free money, well, people are free to pick their own charities, obviously.
He’s fighting his dismissal.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:17 pm
I can't imagine being fired costs the target legal fees, but I fully admit to having zero knowledge about it. It seems ridiculous on the face of it however.
If it's just free money, well, people are free to pick their own charities, obviously.
He’s fighting his dismissal.
Isn't backflip dance shooter still employed by the FBI?
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:34 pm
Those closing arguments do not fill me with hope.
If they can't take down an obvious fraudster like Manafort, I don't have good feelings about the rest of the investigation.
Just use your common sense people! Of course he's guilty, is not a convincing argument.
You're taking that one quote out of context. It wasn't the prosecutors' closing argument, it was a rebuttal to some aspect of the defense's closing argument.
A prosecutor with Robert Mueller’s special counsel team labeled Paul Manafort a serial liar during closing arguments in the former Trump campaign manager’s trial for tax and bank fraud.
Describing Manafort as a capable, bright and “wildly successful” political consultant, prosecutor Greg Andres on Wednesday told jurors they’d seen “overwhelming” evidence of his guilt, and asked them to convict on all 18 counts.
“Mr. Manafort knew the law, and he violated it anyway,” Andres said.
Over the course of more than 90 minutes, Andres walked jurors through the extensive evidence against Manafort, who prosecutors say controlled 31 overseas bank accounts through which more than $60 million flowed. When the prosecution detailed Manafort’s extravagant spending on luxury items, Andres said, they weren’t condemning him for being rich ― they were showing how he’d use overseas accounts to skirt his tax liabilities.
Of course, you're still right in not having any hope. Even if Manafort is convicted, Trump will pardon him, and he will live happily ever after, because it's 2018 and nothing matters anymore.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
I paraphrased and it wasn't out of context, nor did I say it was their sole argument.
I stand by what I said. Considering it's based on courtroom reporting, we're just lucky they got his name right.
Perhaps a better expression of my concern is that the article didn't fill me with hope, rather than the obviously multiple and varied actual closing arguments barely touched on by the article.
For the last year, everyone has been telling us that Mueller has assembled an all-star team with some of the best legal minds in the country. I don't see anything in the article or tweet thread that indicates that they phoned it in on this one.
OTOH, who knows what's going on in the jury room. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Time will tell.
"What? What?What?" -- The 14th Doctor
It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
GreenGoo wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:34 pm
Those closing arguments do not fill me with hope.
From what I've heard - these cases very much depend on the financial trail and data that is given to jurors. That information is regarded as truth, and if it points to guilt - there isn't much else to these cases. Many have said this stuff is more-or-less a done deal.... However I still have the same end-feeling that you do... Not a ton of hope.
Hope? Does what happens even matter much? I mean I am sure it does to him but to the rest of us it doesn't really change anything one way or the other. Just a sideshow that is nearly over.
Even though the these charges against Manafort have little or nothing to do with Trump, they are a representation of the entire Trump investigation. If Mueller cannot get a conviction against Manafort it will most likely turn people against the investigation. Trump and the Republicans could safely move to end the investigation at that point. While there would be outcry, it would be muted as compared to what would have happened before a Manafort aquittal.
So yes Hope is the right word. Every day we are seeing more abuses by this president. Today he used the power of us office to remove the security clearance of a former CIA director for the sole offense of speaking against the president. If that is not a gross and outright violation of the constitution than we should just turn the keys of the country over to Trump now and accept President for Life Trump.
