Political Randomness

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:31 pm

Now it's coming out that the shooter's social media rages about a Jewish charity helping the refugee caravan in Mexico.

This timeline sucks shit.

GungHo · Post by **GungHo** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:36 pm

I'm curious about the terrorism angle...why are we caring so much about that? Regardless of what we call these criminal acts they are all illegal and it's not like we would've allocated more resources to catching the bomber by designating it terrorism'. This was always the FBI's gig and given the political overtones and proximity to the mid terms they were always going to throw every resource available at catching the guy.

And I'd be surprised to learn that this dude is gonna go to jail for any less than like 11 life sentences again regardless of whether we call it terrorism or not.

So is the discussion just a 'let's call an apple an apple' kind of thing or is it more political than that?

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:42 pm

Framing domestic terrorists as just isolated crazies lets us ignore hard questions about how potential killers get radicalized into actual killers.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:44 pm

GungHo wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:36 pm I'm curious about the terrorism angle...why are we caring so much about that? Regardless of what we call these criminal acts they are all illegal and it's not like we would've allocated more resources to catching the bomber by designating it terrorism'. This was always the FBI's gig and given the political overtones and proximity to the mid terms they were always going to throw every resource available at catching the guy.

And I'd be surprised to learn that this dude is gonna go to jail for any less than like 11 life sentences again regardless of whether we call it terrorism or not.

So is the discussion just a 'let's call an apple an apple' kind of thing or is it more political than that?

One of the reasons we differentiate terrorism (and, similarly, hate crimes) from other crime, is because the attack not only targets the victims, but also the community at large.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:50 pm

Pretty sure I just heard Trump suggest that if they had an armed guard in the church, they might still be alive. What. The. Fuck?

It is horrific how far we have fallen in such a short amount of time.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:56 pm

At this rate, it won't surprise me if there are random attacks on election day at polling centers. It's building to a fever pitch.

Z-Corn · Post by **Z-Corn** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:03 pm

Skinypupy wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:50 pm Pretty sure I just heard Trump suggest that if they had an armed guard in the church, they might still be alive. What. The. Fuck?

It is horrific how far we have fallen in such a short amount of time.

A guy I work with is working on getting special dispensation from the elders at his church to be one of the men they allow to carry concealed during service. They are afraid of a Muslim attack. At a 500 member church. In Hudsonville Michigan.

He didn't want to hear my facts and figures about how many people white men have killed recently in this country as acts of terrorism.

Oh, fun aside to this story, he's the same guy I mentioned in another thread who leers at women and comments on their body parts every time they walk by. Just a good Christian man that wants to kill people that don't share his religion and keep women in their place.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:06 pm

Holman wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:42 pm Framing domestic terrorists as just isolated crazies lets us ignore hard questions about how potential killers get radicalized into actual killers.

Couldn't have said it better. Our President is possibly a force of radicalization. Even if it is accidental, the possibility is should be unacceptable.

Edit: To be clear, it also looks like this guy was anti-Trump and was just a flat out Nazi.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:27 pm

Skinypupy wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:50 pm Pretty sure I just heard Trump suggest that if they had an armed guard in the church, they might still be alive.

was there a church across the street or something?

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:37 pm

Skinypupy wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:50 pm Pretty sure I just heard Trump suggest that if they had an armed guard in the church, they might still be alive. What. The. Fuck?

It is horrific how far we have fallen in such a short amount of time.

Every day I thank the lord we live in a 1st world with security, healthcare, and equal opportunity. So be it if the price to be paid is to have to fortify everything because we indulge the (white, male) individual in all things.

Enough · Post by **Enough** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:55 pm

malchior wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:37 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:50 pm Pretty sure I just heard Trump suggest that if they had an armed guard in the church, they might still be alive. What. The. Fuck?

It is horrific how far we have fallen in such a short amount of time.
Every day I thank the lord we live in a 1st world with security, healthcare, and equal opportunity. So be it if the price to be paid is to have to fortify everything because we indulge the (white, male) individual in all things.

Iirc quite a few synagogues have security which is also so messed up.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:10 pm

GungHo wrote:I'm curious about the terrorism angle...why are we caring so much about that? Regardless of what we call these criminal acts they are all illegal and it's not like we would've allocated more resources to catching the bomber by designating it terrorism'. This was always the FBI's gig and given the political overtones and proximity to the mid terms they were always going to throw every resource available at catching the guy.

And I'd be surprised to learn that this dude is gonna go to jail for any less than like 11 life sentences again regardless of whether we call it terrorism or not.

So is the discussion just a 'let's call an apple an apple' kind of thing or is it more political than that?

IMO
It's because since 9/11 the republican party has wielded terrorism the word as a cudgel. It transformed domestic security agencies, helped start a illegitimate war, won countless elections against nuanced and rational evaluations of foreign policy and created a ginormous kabuki theatre surrounding travel security. Was used to drive racist and nationalist rhetoric, even exploited for profit by the partisan marketing complex.

And yet, when our home grown boys do the exact same nut job shit, it has nothing to do with us instigating terrorism? Fuck that shit.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:43 pm

Skinypupy wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:50 pm Pretty sure I just heard Trump suggest that if they had an armed guard in the church, they might still be alive. What. The. Fuck?

It is horrific how far we have fallen in such a short amount of time.

The shooter put three fully armed and highly trained cops on the ground, but I'm sure a weekend security guard would have stopped him.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:55 pm

Holman wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:43 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:50 pm Pretty sure I just heard Trump suggest that if they had an armed guard in the church, they might still be alive. What. The. Fuck?

It is horrific how far we have fallen in such a short amount of time.
The shooter put three fully armed and highly trained cops on the ground, but I'm sure a weekend security guard would have stopped him.

You’re failing to account for the clairvoyance that “good guys with guns” possess. An armed guard would have been able to stop the shooter before the cops ever arrived.

/s

milo · Post by **milo** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:15 pm

Holman wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:43 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:50 pm Pretty sure I just heard Trump suggest that if they had an armed guard in the church, they might still be alive. What. The. Fuck?

It is horrific how far we have fallen in such a short amount of time.
The shooter put three fully armed and highly trained cops on the ground, but I'm sure a weekend security guard would have stopped him.

My wife used to work at a Jewish school. "Weekend security guard" is not a good description of the people who ran physical security for that place. More like "former Mossad agents". Really nice people, always very friendly and courteous, but they still gave me the willies whenever they would suddenly appear out of nowhere.

However, I think the point stands. There could have been active duty FBI on site and they still might not have been able to do anything to prevent this. A gun is not like some kind of magic wand.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:01 pm

milo wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:15 pm My wife used to work at a Jewish school. "Weekend security guard" is not a good description of the people who ran physical security for that place. More like "former Mossad agents". Really nice people, always very friendly and courteous, but they still gave me the willies whenever they would suddenly appear out of nowhere.

Yeah, but there aren't enough of those for every synagogue, Jewish school, and community center in America.

The real problem is the NRA vision of a fully militarized society. It's not hard to imagine the social and political changes that would come along with that.

Here's the fun question: does Trump support armed mosques?

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:45 pm

2013, but... yeah:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 0425451523

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:31 pm

Sepiche wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:03 am h/t Popehat... it turns out hosting a social media site that's a refuge for white nationalists, conspiracy theorists, and alt-right trolls is harder than it sounds.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/conspirac ... the-inside

Paypal ban

Earlier today, a gunman walked into the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and killed eleven people before being apprehended by police. The suspect has since been identified as 46-year-old Robert Bowers, who appears to have had a history anti-Semitic speech on the social network Gab. Following these revelations, Paypal banned the site from its payment platform — the latest action taken against the troublesome social network by a major technology company.

In a statement to The Verge, a PayPal spokesperson confirmed the ban, citing hate speech as a reason for the action:

The company is diligent in performing reviews and taking account actions. When a site is explicitly allowing the perpetuation of hate, violence or discriminatory intolerance, we take immediate and decisive action.
...
Paypal is the latest major platform to boot Gab. Apple has refused to host the site’s app in its iOS store, and in August 2017, Google removed the app from the Google Play store, for violating the company’s hate speech policy, while Microsoft threatened to stop hosting the site after a pair of anti-Semitic posts were published on the site in July of this year.

Default · Post by **Default** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:16 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:37 am It would have been really tough to make these things reliable even if the US Postal Service's delivery times were predictable too he hour.

If he paid cash for delivery confirmation and used a burner phone, he would have gotten a text alert that it had been delivered. Then he could start the timer by phone.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:22 pm

Holy Shit. I have no words.

On Fox, Lou Dobbs and company are pushing the very Soros/Jews/caravan argument that the Pittsburgh shooter announced as his justification.

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/statu ... 2837240832

Of course the shooter was a straight-up Nazi racist, but the motive he himself announced on social media was that Jewish groups were funding the caravan "invasion" of the US.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:11 pm

Default wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:16 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:37 am It would have been really tough to make these things reliable even if the US Postal Service's delivery times were predictable too he hour.
If he paid cash for delivery confirmation and used a burner phone, he would have gotten a text alert that it had been delivered. Then he could start the timer by phone.

If he'd wanted to do that, he wouldn't have bothered with a timer at all. He'd have just remote armed them. The timer was to arm the primary trigger.

Default · Post by **Default** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:44 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:11 pm
Default wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:16 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:37 am It would have been really tough to make these things reliable even if the US Postal Service's delivery times were predictable too he hour.
If he paid cash for delivery confirmation and used a burner phone, he would have gotten a text alert that it had been delivered. Then he could start the timer by phone.
If he'd wanted to do that, he wouldn't have bothered with a timer at all. He'd have just remote armed them. The timer was to arm the primary trigger.

So, he would have blown up the letter carrier and the person who signed the scanner.
Sweet!

(It really is that instantaneous)

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:09 pm

malchior wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:06 pm Edit: To be clear, it also looks like this guy was anti-Trump and was just a flat out Nazi.

Wait. He was anti- the only guy willing to do something about the caravan?

How does that work? If he advertised his anti-drumpf, did he advertise his pro-anyone? So weird.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:14 pm

Washington needs to just shut up and stop talking until they are all fired and replaced.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:20 am

Smoove_B wrote:At this rate, it won't surprise me if there are random attacks on election day at polling centers. It's building to a fever pitch.

Should get some U.N. monitors in there to make sure the elections are fair and impartial.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:18 am

GreenGoo wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:09 pm
malchior wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:06 pm Edit: To be clear, it also looks like this guy was anti-Trump and was just a flat out Nazi.
Wait. He was anti- the only guy willing to do something about the caravan?

How does that work? If he advertised his anti-drumpf, did he advertise his pro-anyone? So weird.

Full-blown Stormfront Nazi who thinks Trump isn't tough enough. His social media (probably taken down now) was full of attacks on Trump supporters as mere wannabes in the real struggle for white supremacy.

He was racist before it was cool, I guess.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:56 am

Default wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:44 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:11 pm
Default wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:16 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:37 am It would have been really tough to make these things reliable even if the US Postal Service's delivery times were predictable too he hour.
If he paid cash for delivery confirmation and used a burner phone, he would have gotten a text alert that it had been delivered. Then he could start the timer by phone.
If he'd wanted to do that, he wouldn't have bothered with a timer at all. He'd have just remote armed them. The timer was to arm the primary trigger.
So, he would have blown up the letter carrier and the person who signed the scanner.
Sweet!

(It really is that instantaneous)

Let me clarify: If he'd wanted to arm it fifteen minutes after it was signed for, he wouldn't put a 15 minute timer on it with a remote activation, then activate it when it was signed for. he'd simply wait until it was singed, check the clock, and arm it after 15 minutes. More complexity = more points of failure.

Super-technical bomb diagram*:

[BOOM STUFF] --- [detonator (makes boom stuff go boom)] --- [trigger** (activates detonator)]---[on/off switch for the trigger (so boom doesn't happen in the back of the delivery truck)] --- [means of flipping the switch***]

*So folks don't think I'm a closet terrorist, I used to be in charge of response to bomb threats, suspicious packages, and so forth for a large resort, of writing procedures for such things, and of training staff in such things. I did this in super-technical style because I don't actually want to write a how-to, and OO doesn't need a how-to.

**Usually something like 'tear open package along dotted line' or 'cut sealing tape with metal knife.' Note that everything after this is optional, and usually absent.

***This is where he went with a timer. There was no reason to go with a timer if he had wanted to simply turn it on at the appropriate time by phone. Checking the clock before making the call would have been a much more reliable timer if he was doing that. /edit - see my post below. He seems to have actually had the timer as the trigger. These weren't as well-made as the FBI originally implied they were.

Or maybe he was stupid and did exactly that, and that's why it failed - too complex.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:02 am

Some more reading shows the bombs didn't go off because of unspecified flaws, and were incapable of exploding. They were PVC, had low explosive and shrapnel, and the detonator was attached directly to a digital timer. That's a very simple design. So either he screwed up the wiring (possible), didn't have enough juice to actually activate the detonators (more possible), or didn't have reliable detonators (likely, they're the hardest thing on his list to acquire, and he may have improvised with something else.)

It also means that he had to have set the timers before he mailed the packages, which is just a hail-Mary.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:16 am

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:02 amIt also means that he had to have set the timers before he mailed the packages, which is just a hail-Mary.

And that of course is the take home message here. If your analysis is correct, he thought he armed explosive devices and then sent them through the mail. He's either a complete idiot for thinking a timer would have detonated the bomb at exactly the right time, killing his intended target -or- he didn't care (or consider) that others might have been killed as a result.

Either way, he's clearly a lunatic, despite his best efforts to make America Great Again. What's even more frightening is that he's not alone.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:22 am

The early reports were that the FBI suggested that the bombs were well-made, and my longer post was based on that. It sounds like they found out otherwise. In any case, I'm really going to try and avoid any more 'analysis'. I feel really awkward doing it here, and I'm not sure that the OO powers-that-be would appreciate it.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:27 am

This seems to be the place to politicize the fucked up situation in Pittsburgh.

"If there was an armed guard inside the temple, they would have been able to stop him"

How is this even the top 100 possible public responses by a sitting a president? Even leaving aside the callous and politicized nature of the response, what are the economics of having and armed guard in every place of business, public space, and place of worship in the US? I suppose it would completely solve unemployment though, if you trust in the abilities of a domestic private security sector dozens of times larger than our combined domestic police force.

Chaz · Post by **Chaz** » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:37 am

Even beyond the economics, an armed guard wouldn't have stopped anything. The guy killed three armed, trained police who went in knowing there was a shooter active. A single, or even multiple, potentially less-trained guards, unaware that a shooter was about to open fire, probably wouldn't have done any better.

"But the presence of an armed guard would have deterred the shooter!" you say. Well, would it? This guy was motivated by hatred of Jewish people. He had to know that going in and shooting up the place was going to wind up with himself either dead or arrested. He wasn't planning to get in, kill everyone, and escape scott free, having an armed guard probably wouldn't have changed the math on that. Also, if he knew there was an armed guard there, he probably would've made that guard his first target. "Oh, but the guard would've been concealed carrying and undercover. He wouldn't have known who was armed and couldn't have targeted them!" Okay, so now you've got a secret guard, so how does the shooter even know the guard is there? Is there a sign on the front saying "protected by undercover guard"? That seems unlikely.

At every level, the "it's kinda your fault for not having an armed guard there" argument is disingenuous, illogical, and totally offensive.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:38 am

I don't want my kids growing up in a world where every public place they enter has to be protected by armed security guards. And a big "fuck your hobby" to anyone who thinks they should.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:42 am

And... here we go again: new suspicious package intercepted, addressed to CNN.

https://twitter.com/CNNPR/status/1056913518367260674

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:56 am

Angela Merkel says she will not seek re-election as German Chancellor

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:19 pm

Is this the caravan thread?

Fox is reporting 5000 troops headed to the border to head off caravan.

Why not make it 7000? Then the soldiers can take on the unarmed, starving, dehydrated, exhausted middle easterners one on one.

Don't forget, who you vote for determines whether your country gets invaded by brown people or not.

Vote right. Vote alt-right.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:25 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:19 pm Is this the caravan thread?

Fox is reporting 5000 troops headed to the border to head off caravan.

Why not make it 7000? Then the soldiers can take on the unarmed, starving, dehydrated, exhausted middle easterners one on one.

Don't forget, who you vote for determines whether your country gets invaded by brown people or not.

Vote right. Vote alt-right.

If you know it's coming and you have a reason to fear for national security nor even need to provide relief, why not send in troops? It's kinda what they'r there for. A whole lot more so than policing the globe. Making it a show for your political theater against WASP Americans while you ask for untold billions to make a useless wall? That I got no use for.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:31 pm

LordMortis wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:25 pm If you know it's coming and you have a reason to fear for national security nor even need to provide relief, why not send in troops? It's kinda what they'r there for. A whole lot more so than policing the globe. Making it a show for your political theater against WASP Americans while you ask for untold billions to make a useless wall? That I got no use for.

Don't you already have border guards for that? The internet tells me that Obama nearly doubled the number up to 20,000. What are you paying those guys for, if not this?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:49 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:31 pm
LordMortis wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:25 pm If you know it's coming and you have a reason to fear for national security nor even need to provide relief, why not send in troops? It's kinda what they'r there for. A whole lot more so than policing the globe. Making it a show for your political theater against WASP Americans while you ask for untold billions to make a useless wall? That I got no use for.
Don't you already have border guards for that? The internet tells me that Obama nearly doubled the number up to 20,000. What are you paying those guys for, if not this?

Yeah, I think sending the troops is 50% Trumpian ignorance and 50% to make it a "brown people invading" crisis so that Trump's base (read: racists) will turn out and vote.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:53 pm

YellowKing wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:38 am I don't want my kids growing up in a world where every public place they enter has to be protected by armed security guards.

I don't want that either. But if there are people going around murdering random (or somewhat random) people, I'd rather have my kids protected than not.

While Chicago has an insane number if shootings, there hasn't been one in a school because schools in gangland have metal detectors. I'm glad my kid doesn't go to one of those schools but if she did, I'd be all for the metal detector.

YellowKing wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:38 am And a big "fuck your hobby" to anyone who thinks they should.

That's where all those single issue voters come from. The right uses this kind of rhetoric to fire up the "hobbyists" and get them to hold their noses while pulling that lever.

Kavavaugh or lose your guns. Trump or lose your guns. Yeah, it's ridiculous but there is no lack of soundbites born of emotion threatening to do just that. And people are easily manipulated.