Kickstarter and other crowdfunding platforms

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:18 pm

I’d love to, but as I mentioned before, they’re on my no fly list after the debacle of Greenland and Neanderthal. Between that and the high shipping cost, I’m avoiding that one. If they make good on what are essentially broken versions of games that are supposed to be 2nd and 3rd editions, I might reconsider though.

Chrisoc13 · Post by **Chrisoc13** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:32 pm

hepcat wrote:I’d love to, but as I mentioned before, they’re on my no fly list after the debacle of Greenland and Neanderthal. Between that and the high shipping cost, I’m avoiding that one. If they make good on what are essentially broken versions of games that are supposed to be 2nd and 3rd editions, I might reconsider though.

Ah I missed the discussion of Greenland & Neanderthal. Didn't realize there were issues going on with it. Got mine delivered but haven't even looked at them yet.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:20 am

I'm still waiting on my copies. They've literally been sitting in the shipping warehouse since 10/2. Mine and quite a few others. They said FloShip (the shipper) was sending them out this week, but I'm not holding my breath.

I have to wonder if it's Ion Games that's the weak link here. They've already admitted they're the ones that screwed up so many cards by not double checking them before sending them to the printer. I'm betting they try to charge us to fix their game. That or tack on the fixes as add ons to the Origins/Transhumanity kickstarter, charge us 19 bucks in shipping for a pack of cards, and then make us wait a year until they're shipping the other games.

That's the other thing: 19 bucks in shipping for just Pax Transhumanity? A small box game the size of Neanderthal or Greenland...for which I paid 9 dollars in shipping...for both? I understand there's issues with the US pulling out of the Universal Postal Union, but that seems excessive.

I'm seriously steamed about this whole thing. SMG has lost a long time customer if they don't dump Ion...or at the very least, have them fire their project manager(s).

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:50 am

I've noticed over the last 6 or 8 months that quite a few of the KS projects I've backed have pre-orders on various online vendors. Since noticing, I've ordered quite a few KS games from retail vendors that are (1) at or below the same KS price and (2) charging decidedly less shipping. Even games from GMT where they want $19 to send me something, I order for their P500 price and $5 shipping from a place like GameNerdz. I have no idea how they're doing it, but it seems to be a better option. YMMV as you end up missing out (usually) on non-bundled/upgraded KS exclusives. But sometimes that just doesn't matter.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:42 pm

Hmmm...I've ordered from Gamenerdz before without any issues. I'll have to check that out.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:58 pm

I'll give a solid example - I looked into picking up a post-KS reprint of The City of Kings via the KS backerkit. I think in order for me to get a copy it was somewhere around $125 shipped. Currency conversions were not working out, but the game itself is about $100.

Gamenerdz had a pre-order for $69, plus $5 to ship. But I was also able to add a $7 quest deck from the KS, which pushed the order to $76 - now it ships for free.

How can I argue with that?

A4 Quest was another one. $26 plus shipping (which I think was around $15). Gamenerdz? $22.47 shipped.

It's become a problem.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:51 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:50 am I have no idea how they're doing it, but it seems to be a better option. YMMV as you end up missing out (usually) on non-bundled/upgraded KS exclusives. But sometimes that just doesn't matter.

As someone who has looked into distribution with some of the big guys… The answer is the developer gets about 15 cents to the dollar. The main reason they are sold at all that way is, one, most have ties with the companies that offer distribution, so the excess copies are already in their warehouse. It’s cheaper than moving it elsewhere. The second, most Kickstarter’s make most of their money through direct sales ON KICKSTARTER because the price per unit is typically higher than what most stores will pay. When there is inventory left over you need a way to move it or you are going to pay to store it.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:12 pm

Thanks for the insight. Things must be changing (in the background) because I don't remember it ever being like this before. For the longest time it was always get it via KS or else. I think the one that started me down this path was actually Pavlov's House by DVG. I didn't back it, but post-release reviews from backers that had advanced copies were really, really positive. Sure enough GameNerdz had it for cheaper than what it would have been to get it as a KS backer - for the exact same thing. The reprint of Nemo's War was the same.

Maybe with shipping options getting nuttier this is going to be more and more common as KS projects just aren't going to be able to offer competitive rates?

As someone that's been funding KS projects for quite a few years now, it's definitely been an interesting model to watch evolve.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:29 pm

Oh, shipping is terrible and it is going to get a lot worse if some of the taxes on Chinese imports go through. We have been warned that if shipping pushed into January, which it looked like it will for about half of our orders, rates will go way up. This isn’t good when our profit margins are already paper thin.

People expect cheap shipping because a lot of the big guys subsidize the costs into the products themselves and also just the bulk they are able to move. Projects under 5,000 units are going to have a very hard time in the coming years.

Big companies like CMON get around it in creative ways. If you’ve ever wondered why all of their stretch goals come in its own box it’s because it’s a way of getting through import tax loop holes. They are treated as a separate product that always weights in just under the amount that would get them taxed. This is less important in the US but in Europe this easily circumvents a couple dollars per unit sold.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:13 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:50 pm I've had the same thoughts, quite frankly. I was going to somehow get a new copy of the rules and give the core set a try before committing to opening the expansion boxes, but I suspect any decision (if you hope to recover money) will need to be made rather quickly. Call it a hunch.

...aaaannnndddd my kickstarter for Apocrypha is on ebay. I won't even open the expansions. It's best we part ways as the relationship was just too abusive.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:21 pm

I read the message that was shared via email yesterday and it made me want to give it another go. Now that I'm fully embracing the solo aspect of gaming, I am wondering if I will be able to look at it differently.

MonkeyFinger · Post by **MonkeyFinger** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:06 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:21 pm I read the message that was shared via email yesterday and it made me want to give it another go. Now that I'm fully embracing the solo aspect of gaming, I am wondering if I will be able to look at it differently.

Standing by, Sir!

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:57 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:20 am I'm still waiting on my copies. They've literally been sitting in the shipping warehouse since 10/2. Mine and quite a few others. They said FloShip (the shipper) was sending them out this week, but I'm not holding my breath.

I have no word on my copies either. I moved and supposedly they updated my shipping address. But who know. For all I know, my copies are sitting at the old house.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:21 pm

Burning Suns is in my possession. I didn't get the extra 5 species of miniatures, but it's here. And it will likely never be back in print again.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:09 pm

Go ahead and put it next to Cyclades and the other games you never let us play.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:49 am

I did play Cyclades at an Octocon. And discovered that it's funny to watch a player get outbid every turn for the option to buy troops in a territory control game. But not very fun for the player screwed. Especially when he's a sore loser normally.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:38 am

Yeah, I know who you’re talking about.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:47 am

Season 2 of Sword & Sorcery is up. Sword and Sorcery Ancient Chronicles is a standalone core game with a new campaign that can be combined with the first core game and its expansions/heroes. I'm tempted, but I haven't even finished what I have of the first campaign. I may just pledge at the lowest level though so I can access the pledge manager for some add on bling later.

edit: crap, they only offer one backing level at 120 bucks.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:58 am

Yeah, I had the same reaction. I have a retail copy of the first one and one of the expansions sitting untouched. I can't imagine spending $120 + shipping to get what they're offering here. It's not that I don't see value in it, it just seems like...too much. I might just wait for a retail offering, depending on how I ultimately feel about what I have so far.

Similarly I was looking at Deep Madness, but the idea of having 37lbs of miniatures is making me twitchy - even if I like the theme and the fact that it's a reprint edition.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:35 pm

I backed Deep Madness, then thought better of it as the price with shipping was way over what I should be spending. I then backed Dark Venture: An Adventure Card Game because...well...it says Adventure Card Game.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:48 pm

Yup, I mentioned it a few pages back - it looks really interesting and the price point is low enough that I feel comfortable.

I didn't realize it has a related (?) game on STEAM - Galactic Keep?

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:33 pm

Ahhh, I was trying to remember how I came across it. I thought it was just a happy accident like To Set A Watch was for me (found while browsing kickstarter). But now I realize you are the hepcat whisperer.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:24 pm

Aeon's End on Steam

That's... intriguing.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:43 pm

This is one of those times where I think I would rather stick with the actual boardgame. It’s still one of my favorites.

MonkeyFinger · Post by **MonkeyFinger** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:10 am

coopasonic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:24 pm Aeon's End on Steam

That's... intriguing.

And "digital sleeves" for the cards? Okay.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:23 am

Digital Sleeves = Alternate card backs

MonkeyFinger · Post by **MonkeyFinger** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:26 am

coopasonic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:23 am Digital Sleeves = Alternate card backs

Ah, okay. Less odd now.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:46 am

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:43 pm This is one of those times where I think I would rather stick with the actual boardgame. It’s still one of my favorites.

Yeah I haven't pulled the trigger because I am not sure I would play it. I am already around $200 in on Aeon's End and very much looking forward to Legacy. I don't need another way to play. It's not like it's Gloomhaven.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:27 am

I'll probably get it just as an alternate method of playing when the physical game isn't an option. I sprung for the digital version of One Deck Dungeon so that I could play on the laptop while traveling, and that was a fantastic way to spend the time back and forth from GenCon.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:06 pm

Two player games aren't really my thing but Clostrophobia 1643 is up now. It's basically a pre-order as it ships in January. I'm curious how well this type of business practice will be received as it's technically going against Kickstarter's terms of service and is not in the spirit of the platform in general.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:27 pm

Lordnine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:06 pm Two player games aren't really my thing but Clostrophobia 1643 is up now. It's basically a pre-order as it ships in January. I'm curious how well this type of business practice will be received as it's technically going against Kickstarter's terms of service and is not in the spirit of the platform in general.

As long as KS gets their cut.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:34 pm

Lordnine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:06 pm Two player games aren't really my thing but Clostrophobia 1643 is up now. It's basically a pre-order as it ships in January. I'm curious how well this type of business practice will be received as it's technically going against Kickstarter's terms of service and is not in the spirit of the platform in general.

I think KS changed a long time ago. It went from a way get passion projects done by independents to being shared as a business model to mitigate against loss for major corporate entities. When it welcomed the later, it set precedent for becoming a pre-release distribution model. Though I imagine is they get enough complaints KS would curb that behavior to maintain facade of their vision.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:40 pm

Lordnine wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:06 pm I'm curious how well this type of business practice will be received as it's technically going against Kickstarter's terms of service and is not in the spirit of the platform in general.

Kickstarter has been a pre-order business for quite some time now. CMON, Eagle Gryphon, Ares Games, the list of bigger design houses using KS for essentially pre-orders is rather long at this point.

Chrisoc13 · Post by **Chrisoc13** » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:33 am

I'm backing too many games right now but they look so good.

Backing pipeline. I love what I've seen of it.

Backing City of big shoulders. I mean it's an mid to heavy economic game about Chicago... I can't miss that.

And backing the second printing of welcome to...

Plus one more coming soon. That's 4 active Kickstarters (with bios Genesis) at once with another to come.

AWS260 · Post by **AWS260** » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:49 am

Re-posting my Pipeline impressions here, since it's now live on Kickstarter. Despite really liking it, I probably won't be backing this -- it's too heavy to play with my family, and I know that others in my broader boardgaming circle will get their own copies, so I'll still be able to play it from time to time.

AWS260 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:29 pm I just played a very fun game of Pipeline, which is coming to Kickstarter next month. The designer is local and brought a pre-production copy to my FLGS.

Pipeline is a fairly heavy Euro engine-builder about running an oil refinery. The basic economic cycle is straightforward: buy crude oil, upgrade it in your refinery, sell it for a profit, then spend that profit to improve your refinery and buy more crude oil. Within that cycle are many, many variables.

First, your refinery: it is made up of tiles that you arrange Galaxy Trucker-style to make long, twisty pipelines. The longer the pipeline, the higher-grade oil it can produce. At the beginning of the game, you'll barely be able to afford two tiles, but by the end you'll be managing a sprawling complex.

The marketplace(s): This is where you buy crude and sell refined oil. There are three types of oil (grey, blue, and orange, just like in nature), and three marketplaces. Each marketplace will let you buy one type of oil and sell the other two. Bouncing between marketplaces is crucial -- but it also uses up precious actions.

Contracts and orders: These pay better than just selling oil in the marketplace, but each requires a specific combination of oil.

There are also machines that automate refining, tanks for storing your oil, and a modest tech tree.

Everything is bought and sold with dollars, but the most valuable resource in Pipeline is actions. You only have one action per round, and only 18 rounds in the game. There are ways to squeeze in extra actions -- by automating your refinery or paying money for a specific secondary action -- and you have to make the most of them.

I found it all a bit much when I first sat down to play, but everything started making sense pretty quickly. It seems like "multiplayer solitaire" on the surface, but by the end I was seeing multiple ways to block other players' plans -- and had my own master plan blocked, causing me to come in last. (In fairness, I was probably coming in last regardless.)

I'll post in the Kickstarter thread when Pipeline goes live. Definitely worth a look for Euro-lovers.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:04 pm

Just backed Reavers of Midgard.

Huge fan of Champions of Midgard, so this one was an easy decision.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:40 am

Really happy to see Barrage hit all its stretch goals. Currently this is probably my most anticipated Kickstarter.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:00 am

Nemo's War expansion and reprint coming on 11/27 to Kickstarter. Of note:

Yes, the same great Nemo's War game that the critics adore is being reprinted, this time is a roughly 12" square (Ticket to Ride) size box which should include a (new, proper) insert tray. All of the game components inside the box are the same as before. If you have a friend who has missed the boat (i.e., the Nautilus), then this is their chance to get their ticket for the adventure of a lifetime!

I half-assed a sorting solution, but if they can include a tray that does the job, that would be ideal.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:17 am

coopasonic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:46 am
hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:43 pm This is one of those times where I think I would rather stick with the actual boardgame. It’s still one of my favorites.
Yeah I haven't pulled the trigger because I am not sure I would play it. I am already around $200 in on Aeon's End and very much looking forward to Legacy. I don't need another way to play. It's not like it's Gloomhaven.

I'm thinking about it and even thinking about paying for one a very few beta spots but I can't see solo play as being enjouyable so I'd want to get the game with others who want to get the game and then somehow coordinate MP play sometime and do it enough to warrant the price.

And here I am thinking about it...

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:18 am

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:00 am Nemo's War expansion and reprint coming on 11/27 to Kickstarter. Of note:

Yes, the same great Nemo's War game that the critics adore is being reprinted, this time is a roughly 12" square (Ticket to Ride) size box which should include a (new, proper) insert tray. All of the game components inside the box are the same as before. If you have a friend who has missed the boat (i.e., the Nautilus), then this is their chance to get their ticket for the adventure of a lifetime!
I half-assed a sorting solution, but if they can include a tray that does the job, that would be ideal.

They're doing that with the Dawn of the Zeds reprint and expansions kickstarter. You can add on a new box only in the pledge manager if you're a backer for the expansions and have the first print run of the new edition. I'm fine with how I have the games sorted now, so I'm not going to bite on such a thing for either game.