The Global Warming Thread

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:22 am

Meant to drop this on this thread a couple of days ago - Trump official pitches coal at climate change conference in Poland. Good lord.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:11 pm

I wanted to put this in the EBG Tesla thread, but it might get panties there in a wad. Can Trump kill the electric car?

EVs have become yet another battleground in America’s ubiquitous culture wars, targeted by many Republicans as eco-elitist Obamamobiles. Even before Trump took aim at the tax credit, GOP Senator John Barrasso of Wyoming had introduced a bill that would not only kill it but also would slap new federal fees on EV owners. At the same time, Democratic Rep. Peter Welch of Vermont has filed a pro-EV bill that would remove the 200,000-car threshold and extend the credit for 10 years. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer has said he’ll demand that any bipartisan infrastructure bill include permanent tax credits for EVs, while climate-conscious Democrats like incoming Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are pushing a “Green New Deal” that would bolster government support for EVs.
...
Now that electric vehicles are on the verge of going mainstream in the U.S., federal policy could become the primary obstacle to their spread. The Obama administration made a concerted effort to promote all kinds of alternatives to fossil fuels, from solar panels to advanced biofuels to LED lighting, and its 2009 economic stimulus bill included more than $2 billion to charge up a battery industry for electric vehicles in the U.S. By contrast, the Trump administration has aggressively promoted fossil fuels by opening new areas to mining and drilling, relaxing restrictions on air and water pollution, even floating a plan to bail out uneconomical plants.

Trump’s most consequential initiative for the electric-vehicle market could be his effort to reverse Obama’s stricter fuel-efficiency standards, which could dramatically reduce the pressure on automakers to replace gas-guzzlers with cleaner models. “That could be devastating,” says Mary Lunetta, a San Diego-based activist who leads an electric vehicle initiative for the Sierra Club. “The science shows we need to reduce emissions so quickly, and to do that we need to electrify transportation. It’s crazy that we’re even talking about going backwards.”

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:12 pm

Lolno. EVs are well beyond the powers of Trump to stop at this stage.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:23 pm

Trump is anti electric cars? He may as well show up at a Christian rally and demand equal time for Satan. (His deplorables wouldn't care).

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:31 pm

Jaymann wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:23 pm Trump is anti electric cars? He may as well show up at a Christian rally and demand equal time for Satan. (His deplorables wouldn't care).

Trump's conservatism is so fucking simple that he seems to long for a 1959 reset.

He is known never to use a computer or engage with the online world. He does tweet on his phone, but it's almost entirely in response to what he sees on his single-channel TV.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:25 pm

Actually, he's anti-GM, and GM is committing to EVs. If he has to kill electric cars to kill GM, so be it. (Fortunately for EVs and GM, he needs Congress to end the tax credits, and Congress is starting to regenerate its spine.)

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:06 am

Kraken wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:25 pm Actually, he's anti-GM, and GM is committing to EVs. If he has to kill electric cars to kill GM, so be it. (Fortunately for EVs and GM, he needs Congress to end the tax credits, and Congress is starting to regenerate its spine.)

But it's more than that. You know he'd mandate coal powered cars if he could figure out how. Hurting electric cars owns the libs.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:17 pm

Looks like the GOP pivot away from climate change denial has begun. However, it looks like denial will be replaced with a stalling strategy built around 'innovation' to solve the problem.

https://twitter.com/SenWhitehouse/statu ... 8852361217

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:20 pm

Now that they've secured investments in the frontrunners.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:27 pm

Hasn't innovation always been the rally cry that the deplorable have attacked? I'm confused.

Petrol because... Can't generate that mu... Can't store that mu... Can't make aff... Free market won'... Need relia...

Innovation has been their enemy every step of the way. I read the bit a lightning pace and don't understand any of it so I can only assume innovation is a mystic word they will use to mean nothing and then later begin referring to something as its opposite. Like innovative advancements in clean coal and innovations in fracking extractions and refinements.

Edit:

Went back and

“What the U.S. needs to do is participate in a long-term conversation about how you get to innovation, and it's going to need to be a conversation again that doesn’t start with alarmism,” he said. “But that starts with some discussion of the magnitude of the challenge, the global elements to it and how the U.S. shouldn't just do this as a feel-good measure but some sort of innovative proposal.”

“The nation is leading the way not because of punishing regulations, restrictive laws or carbon taxes but because of innovation and advanced technology, especially in the energy sector,” he wrote. “Making energy as clean as we can, as fast as we can, without raising costs to consumers will be accomplished through investment, invention and innovation.”

1) The nation is not leading the way. The nation has been actively sabotaging the way while we are the biggest consumers and polluters per capita.
2) So now, as industry has basically moved on without you and those who back you, you want start a long conversation. The exact conversation you've been refusing to participate in for the last 40 years?

Welcome to the party. Join the conversation. Don't expect to lead it as a condition of sitting at the table.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:41 pm

Wait until "innovation" comes down to "orbital space fortress for the 0.001%."

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:44 pm

LordMortis wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:27 pmWent back and

“What the U.S. needs to do is participate in a long-term conversation about how you get to innovation, and it's going to need to be a conversation again that doesn’t start with alarmism,” he said. “But that starts with some discussion of the magnitude of the challenge, the global elements to it and how the U.S. shouldn't just do this as a feel-good measure but some sort of innovative proposal.”

“The nation is leading the way not because of punishing regulations, restrictive laws or carbon taxes but because of innovation and advanced technology, especially in the energy sector,” he wrote. “Making energy as clean as we can, as fast as we can, without raising costs to consumers will be accomplished through investment, invention and innovation.”
1) The nation is not leading the way. The nation has been actively sabotaging the way while we are the biggest consumers and polluters per capita.
2) So now, as industry has basically moved on without you and those who back you, you want start a long conversation. The exact conversation you've been refusing to participate in for the last 40 years?

Welcome to the party. Join the conversation. Don't expect to lead it as a condition of sitting at the table.

Except this isn't them joining - it is just a different way for them to delay progress for their sponsors. Notice they are talking about natural gas, etc. They talk about punishing regulations which is code for avoiding strategies that have worked in other countries such as feed-in tariffs. This a cynical stall tactic again because they know they're losing on denial in the face of overwhelming evidence.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:09 pm

malchior wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:44 pm
LordMortis wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:27 pmWent back and

“What the U.S. needs to do is participate in a long-term conversation about how you get to innovation, and it's going to need to be a conversation again that doesn’t start with alarmism,” he said. “But that starts with some discussion of the magnitude of the challenge, the global elements to it and how the U.S. shouldn't just do this as a feel-good measure but some sort of innovative proposal.”

“The nation is leading the way not because of punishing regulations, restrictive laws or carbon taxes but because of innovation and advanced technology, especially in the energy sector,” he wrote. “Making energy as clean as we can, as fast as we can, without raising costs to consumers will be accomplished through investment, invention and innovation.”
1) The nation is not leading the way. The nation has been actively sabotaging the way while we are the biggest consumers and polluters per capita.
2) So now, as industry has basically moved on without you and those who back you, you want start a long conversation. The exact conversation you've been refusing to participate in for the last 40 years?

Welcome to the party. Join the conversation. Don't expect to lead it as a condition of sitting at the table.
Except this isn't them joining - it is just a different way for them to delay progress for their sponsors. Notice they are talking about natural gas, etc. They talk about punishing regulations which is code for avoiding strategies that have worked in other countries such as feed-in tariffs. This a cynical stall tactic again because they know they're losing on denial in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Then it matters not. Join the "long term conversation" on innovation already 40 years in progress or play lip service to it. The table is not theirs to control either way. They've lost to history. We can only hope it's in time to mitigate against the resistance already done its damage. The long conversation does not mean stalling any more.

Our local DTE ads have it right. The writing is on the wall. Change is now, even if we can't collectively take the shock of an all in change right now. Change is now. The roadmap is here. The current conversation is about improving the roadmap. The conversation about how to get the innovation was the conversation about improving STEM education. You know, the one where the GOP is trying to put the Christian God in Biology class and cut funding to public schools from all levels.

http://newsroom.dteenergy.com/2018-03-3 ... Q7379.dpbs

Change is concurrent with the conversation. Technology, innovation, and the needs of what it means to live on this planet isn't waiting for their vision of American Invention mysticism to frame the language favorable to their sponsors.

Again, we don't truly win as a nation, possibly as a species until they actually join the conversation, but joining the conversation, being part of innovation does not mean they drive the conversation or distract or get a refresher course. For instance, you take your alarmism comment and go sit out in the hall until your are truly read to join the conversation. If you are going to describe what industry is doing as if you are a wise prognosticator of what industry needs to do as a prescription to where we are today, please go sit at the children's table.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:23 pm

For all the obvious political and humanistic reasons, I believe the U.S. is a far better world leader than China.

But if we continue on our current path and China verifiably emerges tomorrow with a long-term tech commitment to bearable living conditions around the globe, I will absolutely sign on to their North-American-East-Sector Loyalty Program (computer-translated Mandarin edition 1.0).

I fucking hate it. but that's where we are.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:53 am

Holman wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:23 pmbearable living conditions

Are we talking climate, political, or social conditions? I actually doubt there's a good - quick - solution that satisfies any majority on all three fronts. While I think you can certainly talk a number of educated or wealthy people into taking measures to reduce or reverse their carbon footprint, I think the vast vast majority of people worldwide are more concerned with where their next few meals are coming from than climate change, and I don't see how we can convince them otherwise.

I think a country like China has the social structure to enforce that sort of change. I don't think the US does. I can't see 300 million average Americans agreeing to suffer in any way to help improve the climate until they're forced to - and we'd be rioting in the streets for months if anyone ever tried.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:46 pm

Meanwhile, US carbon emissions surged last year.

Despite the ongoing decline of coal plants, America's CO2 emissions rose 3.4% last year, the biggest increase in eight years. While Trump's war on the environment certainly hasn't helped matters, the real blame lies with the overheated economy.

“The big takeaway for me is that we haven’t yet successfully decoupled US emissions growth from economic growth,” said Trevor Houser, a climate and energy analyst at Rhodium Group.

As US manufacturing boomed, for instance, emissions from the nation’s industrial sectors — including steel, cement, chemicals, and refineries — increased 5.7 percent.

Policy makers working on climate change at the federal and state levels have so far largely shied away from regulating heavy industry, which directly contributes about one-sixth of the country’s carbon emissions. Instead, they’ve focused on decarbonizing the electricity sector through actions like promoting wind and solar power.

But even as power generation has gotten cleaner, those overlooked industrial plants and factories have become a larger source of climate pollution. Rhodium Group estimates the industrial sector is on track to become the second-biggest source of emissions in California by 2020, behind only transportation, and the biggest source in Texas by 2022.

This planet needs a good recession.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:45 pm

Any guesses as to the 4 warmest years in recorded history?

1. 2017
2. 2016
3. 2015
4. 2018

I'm sure the climate deniers will say, "See, it's getting cooler!"

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:41 pm

Oceans absorb 93% of the world's heat, and they are warming 40% faster than estimated just five years ago.

“2018 is going to be the warmest year on record for the Earth’s oceans,” said Zeke Hausfather, an energy systems analyst at the independent climate research group Berkeley Earth and an author of the study. “As 2017 was the warmest year, and 2016 was the warmest year.”

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:56 am

Isn't the conclusion we're too late now? So new invention and innovation are the only hope left for us.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:05 pm

We are already flirting with the 1.5-degree target and will inevitably pass the 2.0-degree target that signifies catastrophe. In that sense, it's too late. However, unless we mend our ways (and quickly), we'll blow through 2.0 degrees and keep right on going. So in that sense, it's not too late. It depends on how much catastrophe you're willing to bequeath your children. All of us will be safely dead before it comes to that.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:49 pm

Jaymann wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:45 pm Any guesses as to the 4 warmest years in recorded history?

1. 2017
2. 2016
3. 2015
4. 2018

I'm sure the climate deniers will say, "See, it's getting cooler!"

Easy... Trump talking out of his ass

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:08 pm

I think the response is, "how are the libs going to explain the magnetic poles moving being man made?"

(not kidding)

BTW, is libs supposed to be some sort of insult I can't see?

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:37 am

Wherein President Trump thinks we need global warming, all because it's windy and very cold in a lot of the US today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTr ... 9725160448

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:37 am

pr0ner wrote:Wherein President Trump thinks we need global warming, all because it's windy and very cold in a lot of the US today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTr ... 9725160448

... Yet again...

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:21 pm

Yep, definitely not the first time he's made that claim while POTUS.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:40 pm

Always the loudest, stupidest person in every room.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:07 pm

Love how he takes a "Stay Safe, Americans!" public-service announcement and makes it a dick move.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:13 pm

According to The Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast, the GOP is the the only political party in the world that has a platform of denial of climate change. Sad.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:20 pm

I really hope we can dislodge these assclowns once and for all two years from now, if not sooner.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:24 pm

Holman wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:07 pm Love how he takes a "Stay Safe, Americans!" public-service announcement and makes it a dick move.

It's hard to imagine anyone being "accidentally" this bad at being president. You'd think you'd have to work hard at being this terrible.

But no.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:25 pm

Jaymann wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:13 pm According to The Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast, the GOP is the the only political party in the world that has a platform of denial of climate change. Sad.

If this includes Italy and their "arrest scientists for not predicting this specific earthquake" then man, yeah, not a good race to win America.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:08 pm

I'm starting to think AOC needs her own thread. She just schooled Huckabee-Sanders re: God's opinion on climate change.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:39 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:08 pm I'm starting to think AOC needs her own thread. She just schooled Huckabee-Sanders re: God's opinion on climate change.

Do share.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:36 am

edit: Too lazy tonight to make a clean post. Hopefully you can parse the nested quotes and such.

Remus West wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:39 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:08 pm I'm starting to think AOC needs her own thread. She just schooled Huckabee-Sanders re: God's opinion on climate change.
Do share.

Sorry, was on the phone at the time.

the hill

Not sure of the source I linked, but you can find it other places using "AOC Huckabee" search term. The details are slightly more obnoxious from Huckabee since she essentially mocks the idea that the current administration would value her input on anything at all, let alone climate change. The quote below is only the climate change part.

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y) on Wednesday responded to White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders telling her to leave climate change up to a “much higher authority” by invoking the Bible.

While not quoting specific verses, the freshman lawmaker invoked scripture in defense of her impassioned pleas to address climate change.

“Genesis 1: God looked on the world & called it good not once, not twice, but seven times,” she tweeted. “Genesis 2: God commands all people to 'serve and protect' creation.”

"Leviticus: God mandates that not only the people, but the land that sustains them, shall be respected," she added.

Apparently she and Sarah's father got into it in december.

AOC vs Mike Huckabee

“Ocasio-Cortez compares her election to moon landing. Huh? Big difference. Moon landing was LUNAR, not LOONEY; Moon landing done by ppl who knew what they were doing...those who elected someone who thought there were 3 branches of Congress did NOT,” he tweeted, linking to a Daily Mail article reporting the speech in which she drew the comparison.

Ocasio-Cortez doubled down on the comparison, however, this time with reference to her Green New Deal.

“A Green New Deal will take a level of ambition + innovation on the scale of the moon landing. We’ve been done it before, and can do it again,” she wrote.

She also aimed a barb at Huckabee’s daughter, White House Press Secretary Huckabee Sanders—and questioned why he still uses the title 'Governor' on his Twitter profile.

“Leave the false statements to Sarah Huckabee. She’s much better at it.”

“Also, you haven’t been a Governor of any state for 10+ years now.”

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:09 pm

Trump is at it again, this time actively calling for Global Warming (also known as "Global Waming" in Trump speak).

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 4010404864

DJT, in case of deletion wrote:In the beautiful Midwest, windchill temperatures are reaching minus 60 degrees, the coldest ever recorded. In coming days, expected to get even colder. People can’t last outside even for minutes. What the hell is going on with Global Waming? Please come back fast, we need you!

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:10 pm

&$%#%@%%$%@$#%@^!&@*#*@&$%#%@%%$%@$#%@^!&@*#*@

<something horrible that might draw scrutiny from government agencies>

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:29 pm

Of course Trump doesn't have the capacity (or desire) to understand how these things work, but increased ice-melting in the Arctic causes a weakening of the jet stream that normally keeps this cold winds up north. So more global warming = more of these extreme winter events in the US.

Bad Demographic · Post by **Bad Demographic** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:35 pm

When I was younger I considered dealing with this kind of cold a sort of badge of honor - like, "I went for a walk in -80 degree windchill temps!". I'm older and smarter now. (I hope).

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:05 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:29 pm Of course Trump doesn't have the capacity (or desire) to understand how these things work, but increased ice-melting in the Arctic causes a weakening of the jet stream that normally keeps this cold winds up north. So more global warming = more of these extreme winter events in the US.

The mechanism(s) that drive these rogue vortices aren't well understood yet. In addition to the one you mentioned, I read today that a huge lump of stratospheric air can sink to ground level and warm rapidly, causing the main vortex to fragment; the resulting mini-vortices can then breach the jet stream and reach anywhere in the northern hemisphere. (No link because I can't remember where I read it.) Scientists agree that climate change is probably behind both of these processes, and that they are likely to become more frequent, but the details are still unproven. I'm sure someone just needs to explain this to Trump.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:53 pm

Kraken wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:05 pm I'm sure someone just needs to explain this to Trump.

I'm sure he'd just conclude we need to do better raking the jet stream or some such.