Political Randomness

[LawBeefaroni]

That's the thing about Chicago aldermen. They are given the resources and power to do good, and they usually do to some degree. You have staff to respond to 311, so why not respond to 311? What seperates the good from the bad is how much they decide to take for themselves. Guys like Arena and Moreno took a lot (and will continue to do so with their pensions). I had my own reservations with Pawar and Waugespack (sp?) but compared to guys like Arena they are freaking angels.

I heard a lot of great stories out of 45. Streets and San and other machine clout guys were removing Garrido signs from private property. This got around to coppers who supported Garrido. It's surprising how well balanced a standoff between a streets & san crew and a pair of cops can be.

[Isgrimnur]

It's like a mobster movie in real life.

[Archinerd]

That's the thing about Chicago aldermen. They are given the resources and power to do good, and they usually do to some degree. You have staff to respond to 311, so why not respond to 311? What seperates the good from the bad is how much they decide to take for themselves. Guys like Arena and Moreno took a lot (and will continue to do so with their pensions).

Worthy of discussion, but that's not why he's unpopular.
Some people are mad because the new development is an Aldi and not a Whole Foods, jets fly over our houses to land at O'hare, and he's allowing multi story buildings to be constructed next to a major transit hub.

[LawBeefaroni]

That's the thing about Chicago aldermen. They are given the resources and power to do good, and they usually do to some degree. You have staff to respond to 311, so why not respond to 311? What seperates the good from the bad is how much they decide to take for themselves. Guys like Arena and Moreno took a lot (and will continue to do so with their pensions).

Worthy of discussion, but that's not why he's unpopular.
Some people are mad because the new development is an Aldi and not a Whole Foods, jets fly over our houses to land at O'hare, and he's allowing multi story buildings to be constructed next to a major transit hub.

He's unpopular outside of his ward, as most aldermen are, because he's an ass. In his ward mostly because he pissed off the first responders who happen to live there and because of his lower income housing project(s). And the multistory buildings and other stuff you mentioned.

The O'hare flight path thing is a bit puzzling though. For all his problems, that doesn't seem like something he has/had any control over.

Edit:


BTW, something like 420 units are scheduled to come online at the end in this Summer at the redeveloped Lathrop Homes in our neighborhood. Watching closely for the mixed-income development miracle. Very much hoping it succeeds.

[LawBeefaroni]

It's like a mobster movie in real life.

I was going to write a long treatise on how hearingng the complaints and defenses of Aldermen today is like hearing the stories about the mob back in the day from family and friends. But I'm saving that for a book or something.

Short version, on the one hand, safe neighborhoods and great garbage pickup. On the other, some guy gets his head shot off with a 12-guage in front of you and your kids at the neighborhood restaurant.

TIF misappropriations aren't exactly murder, of course, but no alderman is as cool as a mobster either.

[El Guapo]

Rep. Omar gets less subtle:

“To me, it’s something that becomes designed to end the debate because you get in this space of – yes, I know what intolerance looks like and I’m sensitive when someone says, ‘The words you used Ilhan, are resemblance of intolerance.’ And I am cautious of that and I feel pained by that. But it’s almost as if, every single time we say something regardless of what it is we say…we get to be labeled something. And that ends the discussion. Because we end up defending that and nobody ever gets to have the broader debate of what is happening with Palestine.”

“So for me, I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country,” Rep. Omar exclaimed, seeming to suggest, as Tlaib had in a tweet of her own, dual loyalty among a particular group of Americans. Loud rounds of applause and shouts of affirmation punctuated the event’s heavy focus on Israel.

And less subtle still:

https://twitter.com/jonathanchait/statu ... 1118095366

[hepcat]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

[LawBeefaroni]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

Is quasi-kinda-anti-semitism a thing? Cause she may have it.

[hepcat]

That's beside the point. I've not encountered enough of her to have an opinion on that. That doesn't change my belief that immediately equating disagreement with Israeli policy with antisemitism is wrong.

...although to be fair, I'm pretty sure everyone here other than perhaps Rip understands that.

[Defiant]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

[Defiant]

And less subtle still:

https://twitter.com/jonathanchait/statu ... 1118095366

After like, what, four of these incidents, can we just get her a sign that says "Has not said anything anti-Semitic in XXX days"? Or is three digits too optimistic?

[hepcat]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

[Defiant]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

Except that the person she quoted in the tweet wasn't calling her anti-Semitic for not supporting Israel. They were criticizing her previous usage of the dual-loyalty trope.

[Defiant]

Meanwhile, in the unenlightened third world country of (checks notes) Belgium:

Participants in a street celebration in the Belgian city of Aalst paraded giant puppets of Orthodox Jews and a rat atop money bags.

Belgian carnival float features puppets of grinning Jews, a rat and money bags

[El Guapo]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

Except that the person she quoted in the tweet wasn't calling her anti-Semitic for not supporting Israel. They were criticizing her previous usage of the dual-loyalty trope.

Yup. Essentially no one thinks that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's the questioning of the loyalty of those who support Israel (which, as you note, has a long and dark history).

[hepcat]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

Except that the person she quoted in the tweet wasn't calling her anti-Semitic for not supporting Israel. They were criticizing her previous usage of the dual-loyalty trope.

My mistake then. I should have quoted the section that i was speaking to.

[pr0ner]

About the Omar stuff:

https://twitter.com/RebeccaRKaplan/stat ... 4979784704

Instead, the text references a 2010 “working definition” of anti-Semitism drafted by the State Department which references the fact that includes accusations of dual loyalty as an example of anti-Jewish prejudice.

[Combustible Lemur]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

Except that the person she quoted in the tweet wasn't calling her anti-Semitic for not supporting Israel. They were criticizing her previous usage of the dual-loyalty trope.

Yup. Essentially no one thinks that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's the questioning of the loyalty of those who support Israel (which, as you note, has a long and dark history).

Whether they beleive it or just use it as a cudgel is up for debate. What's getting missed in this debate is that both things are true.

Omar is probably anti Semitic based on previous language and her choices of friends.
She is also correct that the pro Isreal lobby in this country uses anti semitism as a cudgel to discredit naysayers.

There is a hugely long and dark history of anti Semitic tropes including around dual loyalty.

Isreal is an ethno state and the avowed goal of hard liners is to shore up that policy at the expense of the traditional competing populace.

If I call England a bunch of sheep shagging ponces. No one is going to say I hate white people. But if I say Israeli policies skirt the lines of aparteid much of the criticism will be accusatory of anti semitism.

Hammas promotes terrorism. Israeli policies and interdictions often exacerbate tensions result in the deaths of Palestinians.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[El Guapo]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

Except that the person she quoted in the tweet wasn't calling her anti-Semitic for not supporting Israel. They were criticizing her previous usage of the dual-loyalty trope.

Yup. Essentially no one thinks that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's the questioning of the loyalty of those who support Israel (which, as you note, has a long and dark history).

Whether they beleive it or just use it as a cudgel is up for debate. What's getting missed in this debate is that both things are true.

Omar is probably anti Semitic based on previous language and her choices of friends.
She is also correct that the pro Isreal lobby in this country uses anti semitism as a cudgel to discredit naysayers.

There is a hugely long and dark history of anti Semitic tropes including around dual loyalty.

Isreal is an ethno state and the avowed goal of hard liners is to shore up that policy at the expense of the traditional competing populace.

If I call England a bunch of sheep shagging ponces. No one is going to say I hate white people. But if I say Israeli policies skirt the lines of aparteid much of the criticism will be accusatory of anti semitism.

Hammas promotes terrorism. Israeli policies and interdictions often exacerbate tensions result in the deaths of Palestinians.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I'm curious - would you describe (say) Russia or Poland as ethno-states?

Also, one issue with your example there is that England is not the only country that's majority white people, while Israel is literally the only Jewish-majority state. Hence if you really hate England there's no basis for thinking that you hate white people, while if you really hate Israel it's a little more logical to wonder whether the Jewish part is part of the equation. In some ways it's kind of like extreme criticism of Obama when he was in office - obviously racism isn't the only reason why one might really dislike Obama, and not all criticism of Obama is racist, but sometimes when someone is really going off on Obama, and touching on some traditional anti-black concepts, you at least start to wonder.

[Combustible Lemur]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

Except that the person she quoted in the tweet wasn't calling her anti-Semitic for not supporting Israel. They were criticizing her previous usage of the dual-loyalty trope.

Yup. Essentially no one thinks that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's the questioning of the loyalty of those who support Israel (which, as you note, has a long and dark history).

Whether they beleive it or just use it as a cudgel is up for debate. What's getting missed in this debate is that both things are true.

Omar is probably anti Semitic based on previous language and her choices of friends.
She is also correct that the pro Isreal lobby in this country uses anti semitism as a cudgel to discredit naysayers.

There is a hugely long and dark history of anti Semitic tropes including around dual loyalty.

Isreal is an ethno state and the avowed goal of hard liners is to shore up that policy at the expense of the traditional competing populace.

If I call England a bunch of sheep shagging ponces. No one is going to say I hate white people. But if I say Israeli policies skirt the lines of aparteid much of the criticism will be accusatory of anti semitism.

Hammas promotes terrorism. Israeli policies and interdictions often exacerbate tensions result in the deaths of Palestinians.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I'm curious - would you describe (say) Russia or Poland as ethno-states?

Also, one issue with your example there is that England is not the only country that's majority white people, while Israel is literally the only Jewish-majority state. Hence if you really hate England there's no basis for thinking that you hate white people, while if you really hate Israel it's a little more logical to wonder whether the Jewish part is part of the equation. In some ways it's kind of like extreme criticism of Obama when he was in office - obviously racism isn't the only reason why one might really dislike Obama, and not all criticism of Obama is racist, but sometimes when someone is really going off on Obama, and touching on some traditional anti-black concepts, you at least start to wonder.

Shit, I had a thorough response to this and it apparently deleted from my phone.
To try and repeat.
Russia, no. even though the govt. would like it to be. too big and diverse.
Poland, no idea.

A better example might be Japan. Maybe Korea. A nation that takes both its national and cultural identity from a distinct ethnic/cultural group.

You counter point serves both sides. It shows the theoretical absurdity af demanding that anti isreali sentiment is immediately anti Semitic. Which is often the case when convenient in the US. It also happens to often be true when it comes to Isreal.

The below link shows the both the hypocrisy and the breadth of anti semitism.
Republicans and Democrats Say Their Criticism of Ilhan Omar Is About Anti-Semitism. They’re Gaslighting You.

None of that means she isn't anti Semitic. Or that criticism of Isreal is. It does show that the conflation of the two is more political tool than actual concern.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[El Guapo]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

Except that the person she quoted in the tweet wasn't calling her anti-Semitic for not supporting Israel. They were criticizing her previous usage of the dual-loyalty trope.

Yup. Essentially no one thinks that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's the questioning of the loyalty of those who support Israel (which, as you note, has a long and dark history).

Whether they beleive it or just use it as a cudgel is up for debate. What's getting missed in this debate is that both things are true.

Omar is probably anti Semitic based on previous language and her choices of friends.
She is also correct that the pro Isreal lobby in this country uses anti semitism as a cudgel to discredit naysayers.

There is a hugely long and dark history of anti Semitic tropes including around dual loyalty.

Isreal is an ethno state and the avowed goal of hard liners is to shore up that policy at the expense of the traditional competing populace.

If I call England a bunch of sheep shagging ponces. No one is going to say I hate white people. But if I say Israeli policies skirt the lines of aparteid much of the criticism will be accusatory of anti semitism.

Hammas promotes terrorism. Israeli policies and interdictions often exacerbate tensions result in the deaths of Palestinians.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I'm curious - would you describe (say) Russia or Poland as ethno-states?

Also, one issue with your example there is that England is not the only country that's majority white people, while Israel is literally the only Jewish-majority state. Hence if you really hate England there's no basis for thinking that you hate white people, while if you really hate Israel it's a little more logical to wonder whether the Jewish part is part of the equation. In some ways it's kind of like extreme criticism of Obama when he was in office - obviously racism isn't the only reason why one might really dislike Obama, and not all criticism of Obama is racist, but sometimes when someone is really going off on Obama, and touching on some traditional anti-black concepts, you at least start to wonder.

Shit, I had a thorough response to this and it apparently deleted from my phone.
To try and repeat.
Russia, no. even though the govt. would like it to be. too big and diverse.
Poland, no idea.

A better example might be Japan. Maybe Korea. A nation that takes both its national and cultural identity from a distinct ethnic/cultural group.

You counter point serves both sides. It shows the theoretical absurdity af demanding that anti isreali sentiment is immediately anti Semitic. Which is often the case when convenient in the US. It also happens to often be true when it comes to Isreal.

The below link shows the both the hypocrisy and the breadth of anti semitism.
Republicans and Democrats Say Their Criticism of Ilhan Omar Is About Anti-Semitism. They’re Gaslighting You.

None of that means she isn't anti Semitic. Or that criticism of Isreal is. It does show that the conflation of the two is more political tool than actual concern.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Your link's not working.

Anyway, personally I see a lot of people constantly saying that people make any criticism of Israel anti-semitic, and I'm not sure I've ever seen someone actually say that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic (or that anti-Israeli sentiment is immediately anti-semitic). Clearly criticism of Israel is not by itself anti-semitic, though just as clearly some criticism crosses over into anti-Semitism. Ultimately I'm not sure that issue matters all that much when it comes to Omar, when her dual-loyalty remark is clearly anti-semitic.

[Holman]

Israeli politics are as contentious as U.S. politics.

Hating Netanyahu's thuggish racism isn't the same as hating Israel, and it certainly isn't automatically antisemitism, but long-established contours of debate mean that you -must- make the distinction in order to join any respectable discussion. If you fail to make the distinction between right-wing Israeli policies and Jewish identity, that's on you.

At the same time, jumping on Representative Omar for such failures when your own political allies have trafficked in multiple mirror versions of them for decades means that you're also just as much full of shit.

[Combustible Lemur]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

Except that the person she quoted in the tweet wasn't calling her anti-Semitic for not supporting Israel. They were criticizing her previous usage of the dual-loyalty trope.

Yup. Essentially no one thinks that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's the questioning of the loyalty of those who support Israel (which, as you note, has a long and dark history).

Whether they beleive it or just use it as a cudgel is up for debate. What's getting missed in this debate is that both things are true.

Omar is probably anti Semitic based on previous language and her choices of friends.
She is also correct that the pro Isreal lobby in this country uses anti semitism as a cudgel to discredit naysayers.

There is a hugely long and dark history of anti Semitic tropes including around dual loyalty.

Isreal is an ethno state and the avowed goal of hard liners is to shore up that policy at the expense of the traditional competing populace.

If I call England a bunch of sheep shagging ponces. No one is going to say I hate white people. But if I say Israeli policies skirt the lines of aparteid much of the criticism will be accusatory of anti semitism.

Hammas promotes terrorism. Israeli policies and interdictions often exacerbate tensions result in the deaths of Palestinians.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I'm curious - would you describe (say) Russia or Poland as ethno-states?

Also, one issue with your example there is that England is not the only country that's majority white people, while Israel is literally the only Jewish-majority state. Hence if you really hate England there's no basis for thinking that you hate white people, while if you really hate Israel it's a little more logical to wonder whether the Jewish part is part of the equation. In some ways it's kind of like extreme criticism of Obama when he was in office - obviously racism isn't the only reason why one might really dislike Obama, and not all criticism of Obama is racist, but sometimes when someone is really going off on Obama, and touching on some traditional anti-black concepts, you at least start to wonder.

Shit, I had a thorough response to this and it apparently deleted from my phone.
To try and repeat.
Russia, no. even though the govt. would like it to be. too big and diverse.
Poland, no idea.

A better example might be Japan. Maybe Korea. A nation that takes both its national and cultural identity from a distinct ethnic/cultural group.

You counter point serves both sides. It shows the theoretical absurdity af demanding that anti isreali sentiment is immediately anti Semitic. Which is often the case when convenient in the US. It also happens to often be true when it comes to Isreal.

The below link shows the both the hypocrisy and the breadth of anti semitism.
Republicans and Democrats Say Their Criticism of Ilhan Omar Is About Anti-Semitism. They’re Gaslighting You.

None of that means she isn't anti Semitic. Or that criticism of Isreal is. It does show that the conflation of the two is more political tool than actual concern.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Your link's not working.

Anyway, personally I see a lot of people constantly saying that people make any criticism of Israel anti-semitic, and I'm not sure I've ever seen someone actually say that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic (or that anti-Israeli sentiment is immediately anti-semitic). Clearly criticism of Israel is not by itself anti-semitic, though just as clearly some criticism crosses over into anti-Semitism. Ultimately I'm not sure that issue matters all that much when it comes to Omar, when her dual-loyalty remark is clearly anti-semitic.

I would note we're having this conversation while west Virginia Republicans are explicitly connecting Omar with the 911 terrorists.

That you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not a thing. I started noticing it a few years ago after the Israeli 20 day war.(I think thats what people called it.)Chris Hayes had a really good segment on this whole thing tonight including the guy who wrote the article I tried to link.
Its not that there isnt anti semitism, or that she isnt necessarily anti semitic. But the furor around it is political bullshit, that ignores all kinds of terrible shit in order to divert anti Israeli policy sentiment. And in fact the Netanyahu coalition has used it to great effect.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Combustible Lemur]

Israeli politics are as contentious as U.S. politics.

Hating Netanyahu's thuggish racism isn't the same as hating Israel, and it certainly isn't automatically antisemitism, but long-established contours of debate mean that you -must- make the distinction in order to join any respectable discussion. If you fail to make the distinction between right-wing Israeli policies and Jewish identity, that's on you.

At the same time, jumping on Representative Omar for such failures when your own political allies have trafficked in multiple mirror versions of them for decades means that you're also just as much full of shit.

This.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Defiant]

Russia, no. even though the govt. would like it to be. too big and diverse.

FYI, about 78% of Russians are ethnically Russian. About 75% of Israel is Jewish.

[Combustible Lemur]

Russia, no. even though the govt. would like it to be. too big and diverse.

FYI, about 78% of Russians are ethnically Russian. About 75% of Israel is Jewish.

Huh, you learn something new everyday.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[GreenGoo]

Meanwhile, in the unenlightened third world country of (checks notes) Belgium:

Participants in a street celebration in the Belgian city of Aalst paraded giant puppets of Orthodox Jews and a rat atop money bags.

Belgian carnival float features puppets of grinning Jews, a rat and money bags

On the plus side Belgium has very little influence on Americans or American policies on Israel.

[El Guapo]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

Except that the person she quoted in the tweet wasn't calling her anti-Semitic for not supporting Israel. They were criticizing her previous usage of the dual-loyalty trope.

Yup. Essentially no one thinks that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's the questioning of the loyalty of those who support Israel (which, as you note, has a long and dark history).

Whether they beleive it or just use it as a cudgel is up for debate. What's getting missed in this debate is that both things are true.

Omar is probably anti Semitic based on previous language and her choices of friends.
She is also correct that the pro Isreal lobby in this country uses anti semitism as a cudgel to discredit naysayers.

There is a hugely long and dark history of anti Semitic tropes including around dual loyalty.

Isreal is an ethno state and the avowed goal of hard liners is to shore up that policy at the expense of the traditional competing populace.

If I call England a bunch of sheep shagging ponces. No one is going to say I hate white people. But if I say Israeli policies skirt the lines of aparteid much of the criticism will be accusatory of anti semitism.

Hammas promotes terrorism. Israeli policies and interdictions often exacerbate tensions result in the deaths of Palestinians.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I'm curious - would you describe (say) Russia or Poland as ethno-states?

Also, one issue with your example there is that England is not the only country that's majority white people, while Israel is literally the only Jewish-majority state. Hence if you really hate England there's no basis for thinking that you hate white people, while if you really hate Israel it's a little more logical to wonder whether the Jewish part is part of the equation. In some ways it's kind of like extreme criticism of Obama when he was in office - obviously racism isn't the only reason why one might really dislike Obama, and not all criticism of Obama is racist, but sometimes when someone is really going off on Obama, and touching on some traditional anti-black concepts, you at least start to wonder.

Shit, I had a thorough response to this and it apparently deleted from my phone.
To try and repeat.
Russia, no. even though the govt. would like it to be. too big and diverse.
Poland, no idea.

A better example might be Japan. Maybe Korea. A nation that takes both its national and cultural identity from a distinct ethnic/cultural group.

You counter point serves both sides. It shows the theoretical absurdity af demanding that anti isreali sentiment is immediately anti Semitic. Which is often the case when convenient in the US. It also happens to often be true when it comes to Isreal.

The below link shows the both the hypocrisy and the breadth of anti semitism.
Republicans and Democrats Say Their Criticism of Ilhan Omar Is About Anti-Semitism. They’re Gaslighting You.

None of that means she isn't anti Semitic. Or that criticism of Isreal is. It does show that the conflation of the two is more political tool than actual concern.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Your link's not working.

Anyway, personally I see a lot of people constantly saying that people make any criticism of Israel anti-semitic, and I'm not sure I've ever seen someone actually say that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic (or that anti-Israeli sentiment is immediately anti-semitic). Clearly criticism of Israel is not by itself anti-semitic, though just as clearly some criticism crosses over into anti-Semitism. Ultimately I'm not sure that issue matters all that much when it comes to Omar, when her dual-loyalty remark is clearly anti-semitic.

I would note we're having this conversation while west Virginia Republicans are explicitly connecting Omar with the 911 terrorists.

That you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not a thing. I started noticing it a few years ago after the Israeli 20 day war.(I think thats what people called it.)Chris Hayes had a really good segment on this whole thing tonight including the guy who wrote the article I tried to link.
Its not that there isnt anti semitism, or that she isnt necessarily anti semitic. But the furor around it is political bullshit, that ignores all kinds of terrible shit in order to divert anti Israeli policy sentiment. And in fact the Netanyahu coalition has used it to great effect.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

But this kind of response is also part of the problem. A lot of the response's to complaints about Omar's remarks are basically "Yeah, but what about the West Virginia GOP?" Or "yeah, but that's not *the real problem*". Few people are willing to defend Omar's remarks, from what I can tell, but lots of people are willing to minimize or partially excuse it via whataboutism. Obviously what was said about Omar in West Virginia was even worse, and has been pretty roundly condemned on a national level. But that has nothing to do with whether Omar's remarks are anti-Semitic.

It comes off like there's some sort of implicit trade-off between criticizing Israel and criticizing Israel's critics, or between criticizing right-wing anti-Semitism and left-wing anti-Semitism. We can do both and all of these things at the same time.

[Combustible Lemur]

I'm on her side on this. Disagreeing with Israeli policies should NOT be a de facto declaration of hate towards the Jewish race. I would even go so far as to say it's extremely dangerous to do so.

It's the implication that anyone who supports Israel has pledged their loyalty to Israel, or even is more loyal to Israel than the US. It's also an old anti-Semitic canard.

Does anyone question the loyalty of people who support the UK or Canada or Germany or Florida?

Something I wasn't addressing. I was simply agreeing with what she wrote about disagreement with Israel being considered antisemitism. It's something I've run into before that I find disturbing.

Except that the person she quoted in the tweet wasn't calling her anti-Semitic for not supporting Israel. They were criticizing her previous usage of the dual-loyalty trope.

Yup. Essentially no one thinks that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. It's the questioning of the loyalty of those who support Israel (which, as you note, has a long and dark history).

Whether they beleive it or just use it as a cudgel is up for debate. What's getting missed in this debate is that both things are true.

Omar is probably anti Semitic based on previous language and her choices of friends.
She is also correct that the pro Isreal lobby in this country uses anti semitism as a cudgel to discredit naysayers.

There is a hugely long and dark history of anti Semitic tropes including around dual loyalty.

Isreal is an ethno state and the avowed goal of hard liners is to shore up that policy at the expense of the traditional competing populace.

If I call England a bunch of sheep shagging ponces. No one is going to say I hate white people. But if I say Israeli policies skirt the lines of aparteid much of the criticism will be accusatory of anti semitism.

Hammas promotes terrorism. Israeli policies and interdictions often exacerbate tensions result in the deaths of Palestinians.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I'm curious - would you describe (say) Russia or Poland as ethno-states?

Also, one issue with your example there is that England is not the only country that's majority white people, while Israel is literally the only Jewish-majority state. Hence if you really hate England there's no basis for thinking that you hate white people, while if you really hate Israel it's a little more logical to wonder whether the Jewish part is part of the equation. In some ways it's kind of like extreme criticism of Obama when he was in office - obviously racism isn't the only reason why one might really dislike Obama, and not all criticism of Obama is racist, but sometimes when someone is really going off on Obama, and touching on some traditional anti-black concepts, you at least start to wonder.

Shit, I had a thorough response to this and it apparently deleted from my phone.
To try and repeat.
Russia, no. even though the govt. would like it to be. too big and diverse.
Poland, no idea.

A better example might be Japan. Maybe Korea. A nation that takes both its national and cultural identity from a distinct ethnic/cultural group.

You counter point serves both sides. It shows the theoretical absurdity af demanding that anti isreali sentiment is immediately anti Semitic. Which is often the case when convenient in the US. It also happens to often be true when it comes to Isreal.

The below link shows the both the hypocrisy and the breadth of anti semitism.
Republicans and Democrats Say Their Criticism of Ilhan Omar Is About Anti-Semitism. They’re Gaslighting You.

None of that means she isn't anti Semitic. Or that criticism of Isreal is. It does show that the conflation of the two is more political tool than actual concern.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Your link's not working.

Anyway, personally I see a lot of people constantly saying that people make any criticism of Israel anti-semitic, and I'm not sure I've ever seen someone actually say that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic (or that anti-Israeli sentiment is immediately anti-semitic). Clearly criticism of Israel is not by itself anti-semitic, though just as clearly some criticism crosses over into anti-Semitism. Ultimately I'm not sure that issue matters all that much when it comes to Omar, when her dual-loyalty remark is clearly anti-semitic.

I would note we're having this conversation while west Virginia Republicans are explicitly connecting Omar with the 911 terrorists.

That you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not a thing. I started noticing it a few years ago after the Israeli 20 day war.(I think thats what people called it.)Chris Hayes had a really good segment on this whole thing tonight including the guy who wrote the article I tried to link.
Its not that there isnt anti semitism, or that she isnt necessarily anti semitic. But the furor around it is political bullshit, that ignores all kinds of terrible shit in order to divert anti Israeli policy sentiment. And in fact the Netanyahu coalition has used it to great effect.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

But this kind of response is also part of the problem. A lot of the response's to complaints about Omar's remarks are basically "Yeah, but what about the West Virginia GOP?" Or "yeah, but that's not *the real problem*". Few people are willing to defend Omar's remarks, from what I can tell, but lots of people are willing to minimize or partially excuse it via whataboutism. Obviously what was said about Omar in West Virginia was even worse, and has been pretty roundly condemned on a national level. But that has nothing to do with whether Omar's remarks are anti-Semitic.

It comes off like there's some sort of implicit trade-off between criticizing Israel and criticizing Israel's critics, or between criticizing right-wing anti-Semitism and left-wing anti-Semitism. We can do both and all of these things at the same time.

It gets to double standards and bias.

A liberal is vaguely anti Semitic. And its a national conversation.
The republican party embraces white nationalism on a daily basis when it suits their purposes and it's business as usual.

People suggest that Israeli lobbyists play on ethnic loyalties. And we're ushering in the next holocaust.

Many of these same people decrying how awful this trope usage is didn't blink an eye at shredding the constitution to show loyalty to a president over their country.

And remain relatively quiet over genocides across the world. Yemen, Rhohinga, China,

Save us the fucking pearl clutching.
And I sure as shit am not going to listen to any Republican say anything about a Muslim woman making unacceptable remarks.

To be clear. This "people are trying to say oh well" :she's been officially reprimanded dragged through the media, in danger of being censured, made enemies of her leadership, and continues to be harrased as a Muslim. Within months of being sworn in. How fucking long has Steve King just been cruising.

If that's whataboutism fine I'm okay with that. The Jewish people have had thousands of bad years and it's still going on. So have a lot of other populations. There aren't any sports teams with Jewish slurs as their logo.

Do both, but every time the left eats itself over minor but deeply felt purity tests the far right laughs it's ass off, spreads another explicitly racist Meme, and wins elections through cultural solidarity.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Defiant]

Few people are willing to defend Omar's remarks, from what I can tell, but lots of people are willing to minimize or partially excuse it via whataboutism.

Yes, I've seen a number of people respond that they don't see that particular dogwhistle (never mind that that's why they're dogwhistles) so she can't have said anything anti-Semitic, and I've had a couple say that maybe Jewish people are just overly sensitive. And all I can think is...

https://twitter.com/ScottChalleen/statu ... 4173309952

If a minority tells me something is racist, I listen to them.

If a woman tells me something is sexist, I listen to them.

If an LGBT person tells me something is homophobic, I listen to them.

When Jewish people tel you something is anti-Semitic, we should listen to them.

[Defiant]

A liberal is vaguely anti Semitic. And its a national conversation.
The republican party embraces white nationalism on a daily basis when it suits their purposes and it's business as usual.

Plenty of us have called out both. The difference is that the Democratic leadership is actually does something. The Republican party rarely, if ever, responds.

[Remus West]

Part of the issue with using other nations is that Isreal claims all Jews (regardless of nationality) while other nations do not to my knowledge make similar claims.

[El Guapo]

It gets to double standards and bias.

A liberal is vaguely anti Semitic. And its a national conversation.
The republican party embraces white nationalism on a daily basis when it suits their purposes and it's business as usual.

People suggest that Israeli lobbyists play on ethnic loyalties. And we're ushering in the next holocaust.

Many of these same people decrying how awful this trope usage is didn't blink an eye at shredding the constitution to show loyalty to a president over their country.

And remain relatively quiet over genocides across the world. Yemen, Rhohinga, China,

Save us the fucking pearl clutching.
And I sure as shit am not going to listen to any Republican say anything about a Muslim woman making unacceptable remarks.

To be clear. This "people are trying to say oh well" :she's been officially reprimanded dragged through the media, in danger of being censured, made enemies of her leadership, and continues to be harrased as a Muslim. Within months of being sworn in. How fucking long has Steve King just been cruising.

If that's whataboutism fine I'm okay with that. The Jewish people have had thousands of bad years and it's still going on. So have a lot of other populations. There aren't any sports teams with Jewish slurs as their logo.

Do both, but every time the left eats itself over minor but deeply felt purity tests the far right laughs it's ass off, spreads another explicitly racist Meme, and wins elections through cultural solidarity.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

First, this wasn't that vague, and she wasn't talking about the loyalties of Israeli "lobbyists", she was talking about the loyalty of any Americans who support Israel.

Second, obviously a lot of people (especially Republican leadership) are arguing in bad faith when they are complaining about Omar's remarks. They don't *really* care about anti-Semitism, they just care about scoring political points. And obviously Republicans have tolerated (and encouraged) a lot of bigotry within their party. But why does that matter on the Omar debate? Does the fact that Republicans refuse to police the bigots within their ranks mean that the Democrats should also refuse to do so? Won't we wind up with a Democratic Party with standards just as low as the Republicans if we go down that road? So sure, don't listen to Jim Jordan or Kevin McCarthy when they complain about Omar (but then, we shouldn't be listening to them on anything), but that doesn't mean anything when discussing Omar's anti-Semitism.

Lastly, I'm reading the second half of your post as basically saying that addressing anti-Semitism within the Democratic Party is not as important as maintaining unity within the Democratic Party. Is that your position, or am I misreading you?

FWIW I am pretty satisfied with where Democratic leadership came out on this - a resolution condemning anti-Semitism that is clearly addressed towards Omar's remarks, but without censuring her or condemning her by name, seems pretty reasonable. But still serves the purpose of labeling this type of anti-Semitism as properly out of bounds.

[Isgrimnur]

Part of the issue with using other nations is that Isreal claims all Jews (regardless of nationality) while other nations do not to my knowledge make similar claims.

What do you think the public justification for the invasion of Crimea was?

[Holman]

Part of the issue with using other nations is that Isreal claims all Jews (regardless of nationality) while other nations do not to my knowledge make similar claims.

Do they really?

I might be wrong, but the closest I've heard to this is that all Jews have the right to immigrate to Israel and take citizenship (although even this has been limited when the Jews are, say, Ethiopian). An American Jew living in America (or even vacationing in Israel) is not automatically a citizen of Israel; they must move there and take steps to become one.

[Combustible Lemur]

A liberal is vaguely anti Semitic. And its a national conversation.
The republican party embraces white nationalism on a daily basis when it suits their purposes and it's business as usual.

Plenty of us have called out both. The difference is that the Democratic leadership is actually does something. The Republican party rarely, if ever, responds.

Agreed, simply an observation of the national conversation. And even at the national level I've seen nuance.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[El Guapo]

Part of the issue with using other nations is that Isreal claims all Jews (regardless of nationality) while other nations do not to my knowledge make similar claims.

Well, this isn't exactly right, with the caveat that I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "claiming all Jews". Under Israeli law anyone with Jewish ancestry is allowed to freely immigrate to Israel and become citizens - they use the Nuremburg law definition of at least one Jewish grandparent (under the logic that if you're Jewish enough to be murdered by the Nazis, you're Jewish enough for Israel). That's not unique to Israel, insofar as you can become a citizen of some countries (like Ireland or Finland) if you have at least one grandparent with the corresponding identity (e.g., one Irish or Finnish grandparent).

[Combustible Lemur]

Deleted. Didn't say what I wanted to say the way I meant it to say.

[Defiant]

Part of the issue with using other nations is that Isreal claims all Jews (regardless of nationality) while other nations do not to my knowledge make similar claims.

Do they really?

I might be wrong, but the closest I've heard to this is that all Jews have the right to immigrate to Israel and take citizenship (although even this has been limited when the Jews are, say, Ethiopian). An American Jew living in America (or even vacationing in Israel) is not automatically a citizen of Israel; they must move there and take steps to become one.

Which a number of other countries have something similar.

That said, it has also taken an interest in the safety of those Jews who aren't citizens - for example, historically they pushed to allow Jews to leave the Soviet Union and the airlifting of Ethiopian Jews.

[Remus West]

I just carry the impression (and I'm open to that impression changing) that Isreal puts themselves in a position where they seem to be speaking on behalf of all Jews (regardless of whether they are or not, just that they present themselves that way).

I would note two things though. First I do not think that Isreal no longer being a nation would be the end of all Jews (it would be very bad but I expect the religion to survive) Second, regardless of the first thing I do believe we should support Isreal in general - just not in everything.