Marvel Cinematic Universe: Phases Four and Five

[Daehawk]

Portman is going to make one skinny Thor who moves like a girl She has no muscles. Then again I said that about the new Wonder Woman.

[Sudy]

Marvel should just create a new character called SpiderGuy and pay to get Holland out of his contract to Sony.

Night Monkey?

[hepcat]

[gameoverman]

It's hard to believe these two corporations figured out a way to work together on this, made all kinds of money, made fans happy, and now it's over after only two SM movies plus MCU appearances. The egos involved must be beyond massive to screw this up like this.

[hepcat]

I suspect greed is more to blame.

[Hrothgar]

I suspect greed is more to blame.

If the reports are true, Marvel wanted to go from 5% of the profits to 50%. That's a pretty big move. Though I have to wonder if it's not a trial balloon by both sides. Whoever gets the most heat will have incentive to bend.

[morlac]

I suspect greed is more to blame.

If the reports are true, Marvel wanted to go from 5% of the profits to 50%. That's a pretty big move. Though I have to wonder if it's not a trial balloon by both sides. Whoever gets the most heat will have incentive to bend.

Big move but only getting 5% was kind of ridiculous considering they did all the work. Even a 50/50 split is a great deal for Sony to basically just sign paperwork. I do kind have to wonder WTF Marvel was thinking making Spiderman such an integral part of their universe if there was even a slight chance they couldn't keep this partnership. I don't see how they can't get this worked out but who knows, maybe Sony is feeling all good about themselves because Venom somehow made a bunch of money.

[pr0ner]

It was only 5% of first day gross, even.

[hepcat]

I do kind have to wonder WTF Marvel was thinking making Spiderman such an integral part of their universe if there was even a slight chance they couldn't keep this partnership.

This. It seems rather short sighted. Especially considering the numerous other popular heroes in their licensed stable.

[msteelers]

I'm going through the five stages of grief over this. First, denial. When I first read the reports I figured it was all a bunch of overblown click bait. Without a deal announced, it was only a matter of time before stories would be published saying the agreement was dead. Then came anger. Those jerks at Sony and Disney are too greedy! Just suck it up and get this done for the fans you idiots! Bargaining came in the form of a boycott of all future Sony Spider-Man films. No, scratch that. I won't watch another Sony film EVER AGAIN!

I'm currently in stage four: depression.

Of course Disney would want more money for their work. They gave Sony a sweetheart deal, and in the process made the biggest movie ever in EndGame while producing the best performing movie in the history of Sony's movie studio. They deserve to get a pay raise if they are to continue, and feel like they hold all the power here. Meanwhile, Sony is likely sitting there thinking that they just made an Oscar winning Spidey film without Disney's help, Venom was a huge financial hit, and they've got Tom Holland locked up as the Spider-Man of the future. Sony thinks they have all the power here.

I still think its possible that a deal gets made, and maybe it's still likely to happen. But there's a real chance that it doesn't get done, and that sucks.

[TheMix]

Sony has Tom Holland, but what about the suit? It would be really weird now to see a new Spiderman movie where he just wore a "normal" suit. I'd be surprised if Disney let Sony use any mention of Tony Stark. This just sucks. My guess is that Sony is going to get most of the blow back on this.

[Malificent]

Sony has Tom Holland, but what about the suit? It would be really weird now to see a new Spiderman movie where he just wore a "normal" suit. I'd be surprised if Disney let Sony use any mention of Tony Stark. This just sucks. My guess is that Sony is going to get most of the blow back on this.

Since Sony's track record on Spider-man films in the past is...spotty, I would guess you're right.

[morlac]

I disagree, Sony does have all the power here. Precisely because Marvel made Spiderman such a centerpiece. They have already proven they can still make money cranking out crappy Spiderman movies. Plus Spiderverse and Venom have them feeling cocky. i for one can not wait to see what dance number they put in the next one. They really missed a chance with Homecoming.

Edit to add:

I was never all enamored with the Iron spider suit. I felt it completely unnecessary beyond a plot crutch and degraded his innate abilities to a sidebar. They leaned on it way too much imo. It did provide some comic relief moments but I don't know, I never really liked it on a whole. Of course once you open that can of worms your pretty much stuck to it moving forward, which they seemed to have no problem with.

[hepcat]

I felt the same way about the Iron Spidey suit as well. It felt way too much like Marvel trying to create a new Iron Man instead of relying on a tried and true character and all his strengths and the weaknesses that made him relatable in the first place.

But I do think Marvel has the power here. Folding any property into the MCU is like a license to print money. And while Into the Spiderverse and Venom made cash, only Spiderverse was critically acclaimed. The usual Sony modus operandi is to crank out crap and rely on fan boys to generate the box office. Because after the initial word of mouth gets out, they don't have a prayer when it comes to generating cash outside that group.

Marvel, on the other hand, has proven they can get comic book and non comic book fans alike in the seats.

Sony needs to get realistic and negotiate a better payout than 5 percent of opening day revenue for Marvel if they want to see box office takes like the last Spiderman movie. They can't steward a franchise to save their lives.

[Jaymann]

Hey maybe they will be forced to come up with some original content. Nah.

[Malificent]

I disagree, Sony does have all the power here. Precisely because Marvel made Spiderman such a centerpiece. They have already proven they can still make money cranking out crappy Spiderman movies. Plus Spiderverse and Venom have them feeling cocky. i for one can not wait to see what dance number they put in the next one. They really missed a chance with Homecoming.

But I think going into Phase 4, Marvel has so much flexibility. Sure, Spider-man has been the centerpiece, but the MCU has so many pieces now, with the addition of the X-Men and the Fantastic Four, the upcoming addition of the Eternals, and the fading of the prominence of the Avengers in their lineup. They can just shift their focus and people will keep on coming. Hell, that's basically what they are doing with the core Avengers now gone.

People have brand loyalty to the MCU, I think, built on an incredibly solid track record. I'm not saying by any means that the Sony Spider movies will crash and burn financially. But I think in terms of general blowback, Sony doesn't have the history to stand on.

We'll see.

[Isgrimnur]

I felt the same way about the Iron Spidey suit as well. It felt way too much like Marvel trying to create a new Iron Man instead of relying on a tried and true character and all his strengths and the weaknesses that made him relatable in the first place.

The suit has been in the comics for thirteen years.

[hepcat]

I wasn't saying it was pulled out of thin air. But it was never featured in the comics as heavily as it was in the Marvel backed Spidey films. Nor was it featured at all in any other outings outside Marvel endeavors.

[noxiousdog]

While this sucks for fans, this makes too much sense for Sony and Disney. Profits for all the Spiderman films and the ratings have all been about the same. Fiege is already stretched thin and has done fine without Spiderman, so without profit motive, they don't have much interest.

This is not all that surprising.

[Blackhawk]

Only one solution: Disney buys Sony!

Disney really does need Spidey, though. They are refreshing their entire stable of characters going forward. They need a few existing characters to bind everything together and make it all seem like the same universe.

[El Guapo]

Excerpt from draft script for next Avengers movie:

BANNER: Too bad that Spider-Man got hit by that bus, eh?
HAWK-EYE: Yup, that really is too bad. Oh well.

[Blackhawk]

BANNER: Too bad that Spider-Man got hit by that bus shoe, eh?

[Isgrimnur]

Come on. At least bring it into the 21st Century. Someone SWATted him.

[Sudy]

Come on. At least bring it into the 21st Century. Someone SWATted him.

Or... he committed suicide after being bullied online by Flash Thompson?

Or... he died in a school shooting?

Or... he drowned in a flood caused by climate change?

I couldn't find a punchline.

[$iljanus]

I for one am excited about welcoming the newest Avenger, Arachnid Lad!

[hepcat]

Excerpt from draft script for next Avengers movie:

BANNER: Too bad that Spider-Man got hit by that bus, eh?
HAWK-EYE: Yup, that really is too bad. Oh well.

My favorite will be the opening scene of the next Sony backed Spiderman which features Bob Newhart waking up next to his wife and telling her he dreamed that Spiderman joined the MCU.

By the way, does Sony own Paste Pot Pete? That's really the biggest issue for me at this point.

[morlac]

I disagree, Sony does have all the power here. Precisely because Marvel made Spiderman such a centerpiece. They have already proven they can still make money cranking out crappy Spiderman movies. Plus Spiderverse and Venom have them feeling cocky. i for one can not wait to see what dance number they put in the next one. They really missed a chance with Homecoming.

But I think going into Phase 4, Marvel has so much flexibility. Sure, Spider-man has been the centerpiece, but the MCU has so many pieces now, with the addition of the X-Men and the Fantastic Four, the upcoming addition of the Eternals, and the fading of the prominence of the Avengers in their lineup. They can just shift their focus and people will keep on coming. Hell, that's basically what they are doing with the core Avengers now gone.

People have brand loyalty to the MCU, I think, built on an incredibly solid track record. I'm not saying by any means that the Sony Spider movies will crash and burn financially. But I think in terms of general blowback, Sony doesn't have the history to stand on.

We'll see.

There is no bigger Marvel brand than Spiderman. He is the Magnum Opus. Especially now with no Ironman or Capt. It is going to be a huge convoluted mess to try and write him out of the Marvel Universe at this point if you even can due to not being able to mention him in any way, shape or form. Seriously, they'll have to go and retcon him out of everything like he never existed. Also, due to the long game Marvel plays with story arcs I suspect they will need to rewrite/rethink a bunch of crap for the Phase 4 arc. All Sony's got is the movies, they get zero from Merchandising (I did not realize this until I just looked it up.) That also explains Disney's willingness to agree to that shit deal in the first place. Also, why Sony is now playing hardball now and won't agree to the 50/50 split. they can prolly make that on their own with their mediocre movies while also opening up the opportunity for Venom/Spiderman crossovers.

[hepcat]

I think you underestimate the X Men. Especially Wolverine. I think that character alone has been forced into more comic series than any other over the years.

[morlac]

I am not. Spiderman is the most popular and profitable comic book character for them and has been for 50 + years.


According to The-Numbers website, the titular Spider-Man movies (not including Civil War and Infinity War) have grossed over $4.8B in the Worldwide Box Office. This puts Spider-Man ahead of all titular Batman movies $4.5B and right behind the entire X-Men franchise $5 B (including $800M from Deadpool).
---take out Deadpool and Spiderman movies made more than X Men movies.

According to the website the Hollywood Reporter, Spider-man leads all superheroes in licensed products with over $1B in global retail sales annually. In 2014, Spider-Man merchandise sold more than the Superman, Batman and the Avengers combined.
---not even close

IIRc Spiderman is also the third highest grossing comic book series behind DC's Big 2.

He is a spidery juggernaut of profitability.

[hepcat]

I stand corrected.

[gameoverman]

I don't think it's about money. When it's about money then business people negotiate. Ego is another thing. Can the people at Sony admit, by entering a deal with Marvel, that Sony can't make Spider-Man work without Marvel? Can Marvel admit, by reducing their demands, that they really want/need Spider-Man in their MCU?

Sony has already taken a hit to their public prestige by doing the first deal. They might feel that if they continue they will be seen as Marvel's ineffectual minions. Maybe someone high up at Sony is asking those a bit lower "Can't you guys do something on your own? You have Spider-Man and Venom up and running, what do you need Marvel for?".

[hepcat]

If it was about egos in the way you say it is, Sony would never have licensed Spidey to Disney to begin with.

[morlac]

I stand corrected.

Only on that part. Marvel did insert Wolverin into pretty much everything from the 90's on. I even have a first run Spiderman vs Wolverine from '87...nuff said.

[gameoverman]

If it was about egos in the way you say it is, Sony would never have licensed Spidey to Disney to begin with.

I think they were desperate, desperate enough to seek help. They hit rock bottom and had a moment of clarity. Now, after making tons of money with the last two Spider-Man movies, plus the animated movie, PLUS the Venom movie, Sony is riding a major high. It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out the people at Sony have now convinced themselves that they were the ones who helped Marvel. The big moment everyone focused on in Infinity War was the Iron Man/Spider-Man scene at the end. Sony might believe that Spider-Man made the last Marvel movies good, better than Marvel could have done without him.

[Blackhawk]

Sony and Disney both have a reputation for being hard asses when it comes to compromise.

[msteelers]

Sony and Disney both have a reputation for being hard asses when it comes to compromise.

I don’t think Disney is being unreasonable here though.

The current deal had it so that Sony paid for the solo Spider-Man movies, and they got almost all of the profits. Disney reportedly asked for half of the profits, in exchange for paying half the production costs. That’s obviously a lot of money, and I’m not surprised Sony turned it down, but offering to split profits in exchange for taking on part of the cost is not unreasonable at all. Surely there’s a number that works for both sides, but it looks like Sony walked away without a counter offer. I’m sure that took Disney by surprise, prompting them to leak this story to the press.

[Blackhawk]

Not at all unreasonable, from the side we've heard. I just mean that they're both known to be... stubborn at the bargaining table. They both like being the one dictating the terms from a position of power.

[rittchard]

The article I just read claimed that Disney didn't want Kevin Feige spending that much time on Spiderman given all the other stuff he has going on unless they had a bigger stake in it. Which makes sense and seems fair enough to me. Reading between the lines it still boiled down to money/ego or whatever, but it really seems like Sony stands to lose more than Disney, and as usual the biggest losers are all the fans. Cut off from the rest of the MCU, a new Spiderman movie will need a lot more going for it to be as successful. I suspect they think simply doing Spiderman vs Venom will be enough, and that might work for one movie but what about after?

MCU has tons of other stuff to work with, particularly a little group we might have heard of called the X-Men and a kind of popular character called Wolverine. Just a hint of one claw and people will have forgotten all about Spiderman. Just kidding, Spidey fans!!!

Now all SpiderGuy jokes aside, what I would do is continue the storyline already established so that Peter Parker has to completely change his name and identity. Since Tony loved him so much, make him a Stark. Let's just call him Brandon Stark, or Tony Stark Jr. He needs a new costume to go with it, and that's just money. Iron Spider? Metal Tarantula? Who cares, just get Tom Holland back. No need to mention the name Peter Parker or Spiderman in the MCU, but continue the storyline. Cross him over to the X-Men movie and make Sony cry.

[Blackhawk]

I don't know. I can see them wanting to let the X-Men cool off on the side for a few years to get the bad taste out of people's mouths.

[hepcat]

I'm guessing Holland is locked into a Sony contract and won't be jumping to the MCU any time soon.

My worry is that this means we're getting a crappy Venom/Spiderman crossover in the not too distant future.