The Trump Investigation(s) Thread

[Holman]

The easiest thing would simply be a Trump pardon after the election, but that might require Stone to spend a little time in prison.

That he's trying to use DOJ to make this happen now must mean he's absolutely terrified of what Stone could spill.

[El Guapo]

The easiest thing would simply be a Trump pardon after the election, but that might require Stone to spend a little time in prison.

That he's trying to use DOJ to make this happen now must mean he's absolutely terrified of what Stone could spill.

Remember that there's witness testimony that Stone was Trump's direct conduit to Wikileaks. Which would mean his link to the dump of e-mails stolen by Russia.

[Holman]

The easiest thing would simply be a Trump pardon after the election, but that might require Stone to spend a little time in prison.

That he's trying to use DOJ to make this happen now must mean he's absolutely terrified of what Stone could spill.

Remember that there's witness testimony that Stone was Trump's direct conduit to Wikileaks. Which would mean his link to the dump of e-mails stolen by Russia.

By the time Barr is through, Mueller will be under investigation and it will be GOP conventional wisdom that Russia did nothing whatsoever.

[Paingod]

NPR had someone on this morning who said the Washington Post reported that Barr was intending to lower the sentencing before the Raging Cheeto sent his tweet, by a full 12 hours or so. Like, we should be seeing paperwork or memos to this effect somewhere.

The cynic in me says this is just enough time for Rudy to knock on Barr's door and warm him that Da' Prez had a fierce one brewing and was going to 'splode the next morning so he better shake a leg.

[malchior]

Personally I'm wondering why we should care if the tweet came after the decision was already made? It's 1) still horrible because it effectively is the AG overriding line prosecutors in a manner that looks political and 2) is complete bullshit anyway because it presumes that other forms of communication don't exist as you mention. Barr's son works in the White House even. It's all a corrupt mess so we can assume that whatever the justifications are that they are lies. These guys are liars. This is the most obviously corrupt administration in history now. They do this all in plain sight. The time for benefit of the doubt or even believing their after the fact evidence is over.

[Zarathud]

NPR had someone on this morning who said the Washington Post reported that Barr was intending to lower the sentencing before the Raging Cheeto sent his tweet, by a full 12 hours or so. Like, we should be seeing paperwork or memos to this effect somewhere.

That interviewee in NPR worked with Barr and said repeatedly “It’s not like Nixon where things happened in the backroom” and Trump’s motivations were “transparent.” No shit. The political influence is happening in plain sight. No matter how much they papered and backdated it, the influence existed pre-tweet.

[Zarathud]

It's all a corrupt mess so we can assume that whatever the justifications are that they are lies. These guys are liars. This is the most obviously corrupt administration in history now. They do this all in plain sight. The time for benefit of the doubt or even believing their after the fact evidence is over.

The administration has been proven in court to lie about political influence (census, immigration bans). You can reliably assume the President to be a liar because (1) it’s readily apparent from the tweet and (2) it’s proven his administration repeatedly covers up.

[LawBeefaroni]

It's all a corrupt mess so we can assume that whatever the justifications are that they are lies. These guys are liars. This is the most obviously corrupt administration in history now. They do this all in plain sight. The time for benefit of the doubt or even believing their after the fact evidence is over.

The administration has been proven in court to lie about political influence (census, immigration bans). You can reliably assume the President to be a liar because (1) it’s readily apparent from the tweet and (2) it’s proven his administration repeatedly covers up.

One lie is a tragedy. A million lies is a statistic.

We are in statistic territory now and it's difficult for the vast majority to care about statistics.

[Kraken]

It's all a corrupt mess so we can assume that whatever the justifications are that they are lies. These guys are liars. This is the most obviously corrupt administration in history now. They do this all in plain sight. The time for benefit of the doubt or even believing their after the fact evidence is over.

The administration has been proven in court to lie about political influence (census, immigration bans). You can reliably assume the President to be a liar because (1) it’s readily apparent from the tweet and (2) it’s proven his administration repeatedly covers up.

Walter Shaub, former director of the Office of Government Ethics, likened Tuesday’s actions by Trump and the Justice Department to those in countries with authoritarian regimes.

“A corrupt authoritarian and his henchmen are wielding the Justice Department as a shield for friends and a sword for political rivals,” Shaub said Wednesday in a Twitter post. “It is impossible to overstate the danger.”

If there is still an Office of Government Ethics, it must be the most demoralized place in the world.

[Holman]

NPR had someone on this morning who said the Washington Post reported that Barr was intending to lower the sentencing before the Raging Cheeto sent his tweet, by a full 12 hours or so. Like, we should be seeing paperwork or memos to this effect somewhere.

That interviewee in NPR worked with Barr and said repeatedly “It’s not like Nixon where things happened in the backroom” and Trump’s motivations were “transparent.” No shit. The political influence is happening in plain sight. No matter how much they papered and backdated it, the influence existed pre-tweet.

That's where we are now: "crimes committed out in the open can't possibly be crimes because they weren't committed in secret."

[pr0ner]

It's all a corrupt mess so we can assume that whatever the justifications are that they are lies. These guys are liars. This is the most obviously corrupt administration in history now. They do this all in plain sight. The time for benefit of the doubt or even believing their after the fact evidence is over.

The administration has been proven in court to lie about political influence (census, immigration bans). You can reliably assume the President to be a liar because (1) it’s readily apparent from the tweet and (2) it’s proven his administration repeatedly covers up.

Walter Shaub, former director of the Office of Government Ethics, likened Tuesday’s actions by Trump and the Justice Department to those in countries with authoritarian regimes.

“A corrupt authoritarian and his henchmen are wielding the Justice Department as a shield for friends and a sword for political rivals,” Shaub said Wednesday in a Twitter post. “It is impossible to overstate the danger.”

If there is still an Office of Government Ethics, it must be the most demoralized place in the world.

There is. I have to mail my annual financial disclosure form to them tomorrow.

[coopasonic]

Not going to claim executive privilege?

[pr0ner]

Not going to claim executive privilege?

Us bureaucratic peons aren't so lucky.

[malchior]

The Democratic party is ridiculous. They are incompetents top to bottom. Why did they even impeach? It really seems like they have no strategy at all.

They had to know the GOP would act the way they did so the only reason to do it would be to hammer them. Instead they are pivoting to the 2018 strategy? I should not be surprised but I'm still staggered sometimes by HOW USELESS they are.

I want to scream at them you can do both. Let the candidates carry the election message and you hammer on the GOP with your investigative powers. This is not rocket science. So while he does dictator things you are going to talk about M4A or ACA. FFS this is the best idea they have?

[LawBeefaroni]

So while he does dictator things you are going to talk about M4A or ACA. FFS this is the best idea they have?

They are totally lost.

[Drazzil]

The easiest thing would simply be a Trump pardon after the election, but that might require Stone to spend a little time in prison.

That he's trying to use DOJ to make this happen now must mean he's absolutely terrified of what Stone could spill.

Remember that there's witness testimony that Stone was Trump's direct conduit to Wikileaks. Which would mean his link to the dump of e-mails stolen by Russia.

Would it even matter? He's already doing worse stuff publically now. The Republicans don't care.

And how many Trump voters do you think will double down on stupid just because they don't want to admit; to themselves, or others how stupid they were the first time?

The Republicans in office don't care. Party unity above all else.

To change a horse mid stream requires recognizing and acknowledging how deep the water is...

and that maybe you shoulda brought an ox instead of that mustang.

*shrug*

[Drazzil]

This is what I don't get about Trump. He's 72. Not great at making money, up to his eyeballs in debt and NOT worried about his legacy AT ALL. He's gotta realize that he's going to die soon, and whatever penny ante small time profits he pulls now are going to be erased when the stock market collapses, and his name will be shit for eternity. Like Hoover, only with less personal ethics.

The only money he will have is the speaking engagements he will score; and there won't be many. His whole family is stupid; just absolutely moronic (Except for Barron, he's just a kid) and won't be able to maintain his house of cards when hes gone. His family will within ten years I think NEED a social safety net. He must not care. Are we SURE all his kids are his?

[Drazzil]

Jesus poor Barron. That kids going to have to move to Russia to get any hope of a job; depending on if Putin is in power. Theres another thing that sucks. He's going to be less popular then Pablo Escobar's kid, last I checked he's more or less persona non grata in most of South America.

Fuuuuuck. Always work in electrical engineering.

[Holman]

Jesus poor Barron. That kids going to have to move to Russia to get any hope of a job; depending on if Putin is in power. Theres another thing that sucks. He's going to be less popular then Pablo Escobar's kid, last I checked he's more or less persona non grata in most of South America.

Fuuuuuck. Always work in electrical engineering.

Barron is innocent.

I taught an Eisenhower kid. Today all the Eisenhowers are liberal Democrats.

[Drazzil]

Jesus poor Barron. That kids going to have to move to Russia to get any hope of a job; depending on if Putin is in power. Theres another thing that sucks. He's going to be less popular then Pablo Escobar's kid, last I checked he's more or less persona non grata in most of South America.

Fuuuuuck. Always work in electrical engineering.

Barron is innocent.

I taught an Eisenhower kid. Today all the Eisenhowers are liberal Democrats.

See above. I said the same thing.

[Drazzil]

[Kraken]

Jesus poor Barron. That kids going to have to move to Russia to get any hope of a job; depending on if Putin is in power. Theres another thing that sucks. He's going to be less popular then Pablo Escobar's kid, last I checked he's more or less persona non grata in most of South America.

Fuuuuuck. Always work in electrical engineering.

Barron is innocent.

I taught an Eisenhower kid. Today all the Eisenhowers are liberal Democrats.

Today, Dwight qualifies as a liberal Democrat.

[Drazzil]

I said the same in a post that my internet swallowed. Damn it.

[El Guapo]

The Democratic party is ridiculous. They are incompetents top to bottom. Why did they even impeach? It really seems like they have no strategy at all.

They had to know the GOP would act the way they did so the only reason to do it would be to hammer them. Instead they are pivoting to the 2018 strategy? I should not be surprised but I'm still staggered sometimes by HOW USELESS they are.

I want to scream at them you can do both. Let the candidates carry the election message and you hammer on the GOP with your investigative powers. This is not rocket science. So while he does dictator things you are going to talk about M4A or ACA. FFS this is the best idea they have?

I'll be honest - this seems like a reasonable approach to take. I would subpoena Bolton myself, even though that's probably not going to work (Bolton would probably refuse to appear, any litigation would be resolved after the election). But as to the broader picture - at this point the public knows about as much as it wants to know about Trump being a corrupt criminal. So pivoting towards "Trump is going to destroy your access to healthcare and ruin your ability to provide for your family" seems like a reasonable strategy, because it's appealing to people on what's most obviously going to impact their lives (and also is areas where Democrats enjoy their strongest popular support). Also it's weird to complain about them using the 2018 strategy when...that strategy worked?

And yeah, you can do both to some degree, but at some point you're going to have to pick what's your main focus and what's not.

[YellowKing]

Bolton's stuff is going to come out anyway, if he wants it to come out. While the White House may make some attempt to censor certain aspects of the book, it's highly unlikely they are going to be able to whittle it down into nothing. And nothing is stopping him from hitting every news outlet with his story after the book is published.

[malchior]

I'll be honest - this seems like a reasonable approach to take. I would subpoena Bolton myself, even though that's probably not going to work (Bolton would probably refuse to appear, any litigation would be resolved after the election). But as to the broader picture - at this point the public knows about as much as it wants to know about Trump being a corrupt criminal. So pivoting towards "Trump is going to destroy your access to healthcare and ruin your ability to provide for your family" seems like a reasonable strategy, because it's appealing to people on what's most obviously going to impact their lives (and also is areas where Democrats enjoy their strongest popular support).

Except Trump is going to be announcing investigations against candidates and dropping fire from the skies. Yeah people are totally going to say focused on the healthcare message. The Democrats still haven't figured out that elections against Trump can't be run with the same old playbook.

Also it's weird to complain about them using the 2018 strategy when...that strategy worked?

Yes - it worked but it was a totally different election. Most notably Trump wasn't on the ticket. Still it wasn't my point to argue the strategy wasn't effective or not. It is that they knew impeachment wasn't going to get him removed. They had ample time to prepare for what happened next. What that is...is nothing. They are not going to press any advantage at all? That they did it and then move on reduces the efficacy of one of their most potent weapons to attack vulnerable Senators down ticket that they need to go after.

If they keep showing that Trump is doing terrible things and keep the pressure on, it makes the people who absolved him look like idiots. Instead they'll let it sink out of sight and the public will have forgotten about it by the fall. Contrast the approach to how the GOP work which is to attack constantly from all angles with bullshit. The Senate is almost certainly going to do everything they can to undermine the impeachment. However, the Democrats who have a laundry list of legitimate issues are shelving them to talk about a chicken in every pot? It is complete incompetence.

And yeah, you can do both to some degree, but at some point you're going to have to pick what's your main focus and what's not.

Talking about healthcare isn't going to win this election. Focusing on it is insane considering what is going to come.

Rick Wilson says it best here.

Policy is meaningless.

[YellowKing]

Are there people out there living under a rock that don't already have their minds made up on Trump? I don't see how there's enough of them to swing an election.

What you have to do is persuade the apathetic voters that are content with the status quo unless someone tells them otherwise. And I don't see how you do that without advancing your policy agenda and giving them an alternative.

The Democrats don't have to provide examples of how Trump is a terrible person - he'll do a great job of that on his own.

I agree that in the end, policy probably doesn't matter as much as turnout. But I think turnout will take care of itself. Piling on Trump just seems like a recipe to drive GOP turnout instead.

[malchior]

Are there people out there living under a rock that don't already have their minds made up on Trump? I don't see how there's enough of them to swing an election.

This isn't the point. The fight is in the margins in 4 or 5 states. The Democrats have to have a mentality to *battle* for each vote. That is about the only thing about Bloomberg I can positively point at. He gets that.

What you have to do is persuade the apathetic voters that are content with the status quo unless someone tells them otherwise. And I don't see how you do that without advancing your policy agenda and giving them an alternative.

The apathetic aren't going to rally to policy at this point. These races are about individuals now.

The Democrats don't have to provide examples of how Trump is a terrible person - he'll do a great job of that on his own.

This isn't the point. They are fighting a literal war for the United States right now against the GOP and they are tying a hand behind their back. They need to win as many seats as the can in the Senate. They need to keep the House (though it'd be hard to lose it at this point). They can't even decide on a candidate to rally them and they are taking the foot off the throttle in essentially the only part of the government they have power in? It is malpractice.

[Paingod]

How accurate is this? I always thought the Department of Justice was a self-sustained "Judicial" (non-presidential) branch. Chris Hayes reminds us that the DOJ is only impartial on the President's whim. The only thing to stop it from being abused by a President are norms and expectations, not laws and the constitution. We know how Trump feels about norms and following them.

[Unagi]

I look at ever Department Of to be a part of the Executive.

[El Guapo]

I'll be honest - this seems like a reasonable approach to take. I would subpoena Bolton myself, even though that's probably not going to work (Bolton would probably refuse to appear, any litigation would be resolved after the election). But as to the broader picture - at this point the public knows about as much as it wants to know about Trump being a corrupt criminal. So pivoting towards "Trump is going to destroy your access to healthcare and ruin your ability to provide for your family" seems like a reasonable strategy, because it's appealing to people on what's most obviously going to impact their lives (and also is areas where Democrats enjoy their strongest popular support).

Except Trump is going to be announcing investigations against candidates and dropping fire from the skies. Yeah people are totally going to say focused on the healthcare message. The Democrats still haven't figured out that elections against Trump can't be run with the same old playbook.

Also it's weird to complain about them using the 2018 strategy when...that strategy worked?

Yes - it worked but it was a totally different election. Most notably Trump wasn't on the ticket. Still it wasn't my point to argue the strategy wasn't effective or not. It is that they knew impeachment wasn't going to get him removed. They had ample time to prepare for what happened next. What that is...is nothing. They are not going to press any advantage at all? That they did it and then move on reduces the efficacy of one of their most potent weapons to attack vulnerable Senators down ticket that they need to go after.

If they keep showing that Trump is doing terrible things and keep the pressure on, it makes the people who absolved him look like idiots. Instead they'll let it sink out of sight and the public will have forgotten about it by the fall. Contrast the approach to how the GOP work which is to attack constantly from all angles with bullshit. The Senate is almost certainly going to do everything they can to undermine the impeachment. However, the Democrats who have a laundry list of legitimate issues are shelving them to talk about a chicken in every pot? It is complete incompetence.

And yeah, you can do both to some degree, but at some point you're going to have to pick what's your main focus and what's not.

Talking about healthcare isn't going to win this election. Focusing on it is insane considering what is going to come.

Rick Wilson says it best here.

Policy is meaningless.

We're not talking about abstract policy papers here. We're talking about "if Trump is reelected, millions of people will lose access to healthcare."

To me it kind of boils down to this - in October 2020, do you want the front page headlines to be "Trump's Reelection Threatens Millions of People's Access to Healthcare" or "Democrats Raise Questions About Trump's Improper Conduct in [50th Scandal]"?

[malchior]

How accurate is this? I always thought the Department of Justice was a self-sustained "Judicial" (non-presidential) branch. Chris Hayes reminds us that the DOJ is only impartial on the President's whim. The only thing to stop it from being abused by a President are norms and expectations, not laws and the constitution. We know how Trump feels about norms and following them.

Very accurate. The DOJ re-normed itself after Watergate by explicitly embedding into its culture a non-political approach to administering justice. That is why so many folks are hanging off alarms now because what is happening is going back to the Nixon-ian 'I am the law' approach and beyond.

[malchior]

We're not talking about abstract policy papers here. We're talking about "if Trump is reelected, millions of people will lose access to healthcare."

To me it kind of boils down to this - in October 2020, do you want the front page headlines to be "Trump's Reelection Threatens Millions of People's Access to Healthcare" or "Democrats Raise Questions About Trump's Improper Conduct in [50th Scandal]"?

My point isn't about policy papers. It is that the Democrats are up against a cult of personality. It isn't about dirtying him up. It is about approaching the election as total warfare. Trump is going to assault us like never before and if the Democrats only headline is that he is 'Threating their healthcare' I suspect they'll lose. Maybe not broadly but they'll lose the WH and the nation with it. They need to bring a fight that frankly isn't going to be fought on policy ground. Look back at 2016, Clinton brought tons of policy. Trump brought almost none. This year he will bring fire and fury. Policy isn't going to mean jack shit this year.

[gilraen]

How accurate is this? I always thought the Department of Justice was a self-sustained "Judicial" (non-presidential) branch.

DOJ is part of the executive branch, unlike the actual courts, which are the judicial branch.

[LawBeefaroni]

This year he will bring fire and fury.

From the largest bully pulpit in the world.

But hey, less than one percent of Americans may lose healthcare! Get out the vote!

[malchior]

This is the type of bullshit you are going to see this year. Lying. Obfuscating. Bullshitting. Attacking reality.

Edit: One more viewpoint to try to explain my argument about the Democrats being incompetent. Focusing on anything in exclusion of other avenues is a strategic blunder in my view because it cedes the battleground to Trump. He will be attacking them and will capture the headlines. The Democrats need to keep the pressure on with public investigations because it is one of their most powerful ways to *drive headlines*. This is like General Mills cancelling 50% of their weak selling cereal products and giving up shelf space to a competitor. They need investigations *and* candidates pushing their vision in an easily explainable and unfortunately show-y way to keep their message on the front page to make impact.

It's a video of asshole Trumpist WH "trade advisor" Peter Navarro gaslighting us in the face of absolute economics facts to the point that the newsperson literally throws her hands in the air!

[El Guapo]

This is the type of bullshit you are going to see this year. Lying. Obfuscating. Bullshitting. Attacking reality.

Edit: One more viewpoint to try to explain my argument about the Democrats being incompetent. Focusing on anything in exclusion of other avenues is a strategic blunder in my view because it cedes the battleground to Trump. He will be attacking them and will capture the headlines. The Democrats need to keep the pressure on with public investigations because it is one of their most powerful ways to *drive headlines*. This is like General Mills cancelling 50% of their weak selling cereal products and giving up shelf space to a competitor. They need investigations *and* candidates pushing their vision in an easily explainable and unfortunately show-y way to keep their message on the front page to make impact.

It's a video of asshole Trumpist WH "trade advisor" Peter Navarro gaslighting us in the face of absolute economics facts to the point that the newsperson literally throws her hands in the air!

But they are going to keep doing investigations, as the NYT article says. The NYT article (which is not 100% clear in places) appears to be prompted by Pelosi issuing some instructions / guidance to her caucus relative to their reelection races. It sounds like her general guidance is, in the context of those races, to focus on a select number of overwhelming popular issues, including healthcare. So... they're going to have investigations *and* candidates pushing their vision in an easily explainable and unfortunately show-y way to keep their message on the front page to make impact.

[malchior]

But they are going to keep doing investigations, as the NYT article says.

I think that you have to read it holistically in context, investigations are going to be muted. They are worried about elevating or amplifying his activity. Which makes some sense until you consider that he has the media auto-broadcasting his twitter feed and has an attack news network. He has a voice no matter what. It read to me like they are taking their foot way off the throttle there. It sounded like a 95% turn to focus on policy which is a where I'm coming from. I guess we'll see but I don't think it's a bad bet to bank on Democratic incompetence.

As another aside, I'll be clear that this wasn't about Bolton either - I'm ok with passing on Bolton. He is attention seeking clearly to sell books. Let the book go live then maybe bring him in down the line based on things he says in the book. However, IMO you have to attempt to bring him in. It'll drive headlines.

So... they're going to have investigations *and* candidates pushing their vision in an easily explainable and unfortunately show-y way to keep their message on the front page to make impact.

Again I read that as Pelosi essentially saying 'focus on winning' in the way that lost them 2016. They are living in the past. There is no indication at least yet that they understand the case for change which is why Bernie and Bloomberg are literally co-opting their party right now.

[Holman]

More pardon news...



EDIT: the messenger was Rohrabacher.

[malchior]

I believe this isn't entirely news. IIRC Roger Stone was bandying a pardon for Assange.