The Confederate Flag Thread

[Grifman]

War is Boring

The Navy operates one ship, a guided-missile cruiser named the USS Chancellorsville, commissioned in 1989 in honor of the Civil War battle that occurred in Virginia. Some historians consider the battle a major Confederate victory, according to an August 2017 Congressional Research Service report on military installations with Confederate names.

This is totally irrelevant. The Navy has a long history of naming ships after famous battles in US history. Are we really going to start ignoring battles that happened to be Confederate victories against Union forces?

[Combustible Lemur]

War is Boring

The Navy operates one ship, a guided-missile cruiser named the USS Chancellorsville, commissioned in 1989 in honor of the Civil War battle that occurred in Virginia. Some historians consider the battle a major Confederate victory, according to an August 2017 Congressional Research Service report on military installations with Confederate names.

This is totally irrelevant. The Navy has a long history of naming ships after famous battles in US history. Are we really going to start ignoring battles that happened to be Confederate victories against Union forces?

With the current state of our society and the the gross legacy of using historical ties to the confederacy to gall and subdue racial minorities in the south...... Maybe.
It even mentions in the article that this was just prior to the world wars when there was specifically a resurgence of racially aggravating symbols across the country.



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[em2nought]

It even mentions in the article that this was just prior to the world wars when there was specifically a resurgence of racially aggravating symbols across the country.

Maybe it was just a good way to get southerners to volunteer to go die in the trenches on the Western Front?

Not all ships are named after victories.

[hepcat]

War is Boring

The Navy operates one ship, a guided-missile cruiser named the USS Chancellorsville, commissioned in 1989 in honor of the Civil War battle that occurred in Virginia. Some historians consider the battle a major Confederate victory, according to an August 2017 Congressional Research Service report on military installations with Confederate names.

This is totally irrelevant. The Navy has a long history of naming ships after famous battles in US history. Are we really going to start ignoring battles that happened to be Confederate victories against Union forces?

With the current state of our society and the the gross legacy of using historical ties to the confederacy to gall and subdue racial minorities in the south...... Maybe.
It even mentions in the article that this was just prior to the world wars when there was specifically a resurgence of racially aggravating symbols across the country.



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I’m good with naming them only after Union victories if going with Civil War battles. We don’t name our vessels after battles we lost in other wars, do we? Legit question, by the way. I don’t know offhand.

[em2nought]

We don’t name our vessels after battles we lost in other wars, do we? Legit question, by the way. I don’t know offhand.

That's the USS Bunker Hill in the photograph so...

By Union standards up until Gettysburg, not running as fast as your legs could carry you the whole way back to D.C. after a battle might be an accomplishment. Again, I doubt any confederate flag waving yokel likes to hear mention of Chancellorsville even if it was a battlefield victory. I think they'd have rather lost on the books, and kept Stonewall Jackson alive.

...and a more contemporary example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wake_Island

It seems to be losses where at least a significant stand was made?

[LawBeefaroni]

War is Boring

The Navy operates one ship, a guided-missile cruiser named the USS Chancellorsville, commissioned in 1989 in honor of the Civil War battle that occurred in Virginia. Some historians consider the battle a major Confederate victory, according to an August 2017 Congressional Research Service report on military installations with Confederate names.

This is totally irrelevant. The Navy has a long history of naming ships after famous battles in US history. Are we really going to start ignoring battles that happened to be Confederate victories against Union forces?

With the current state of our society and the the gross legacy of using historical ties to the confederacy to gall and subdue racial minorities in the south...... Maybe.
It even mentions in the article that this was just prior to the world wars when there was specifically a resurgence of racially aggravating symbols across the country.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I’m good with naming them only after Union victories if going with Civil War battles. We don’t name our vessels after battles we lost in other wars, do we? Legit question, by the way. I don’t know offhand.

Does this count?

USS Falmouth

Burning of Falmouth.

[em2nought]

Does this count?

USS Falmouth

Burning of Falmouth.

I think this is the Battle of Falmouth they were thinking of http://woodsholemuseum.org/giffordpaint ... itish.html

[Blackhawk]

You all give the Confederate flag folks too much credit. I doubt 99% of them could even identify most of the named battles as being in the Civil War, let alone who won them or who died there. The flag is 'their heritage', they just have no clue what that heritage actually is.

/edit - and just to be fair, I doubt the other side would do much better.

[LordMortis]

Why is it every time I try to find common cause with "Democrats are responsible for Jim Crow and racism" by agreeing and asking to eliminate their influence by removing all these monuments to their bigotry the laser focused talking point shifts?

[LawBeefaroni]

Arguments born of rote memorization aren't up for discussion.

[Grifman]

War is Boring

The Navy operates one ship, a guided-missile cruiser named the USS Chancellorsville, commissioned in 1989 in honor of the Civil War battle that occurred in Virginia. Some historians consider the battle a major Confederate victory, according to an August 2017 Congressional Research Service report on military installations with Confederate names.

This is totally irrelevant. The Navy has a long history of naming ships after famous battles in US history. Are we really going to start ignoring battles that happened to be Confederate victories against Union forces?

With the current state of our society and the the gross legacy of using historical ties to the confederacy to gall and subdue racial minorities in the south...... Maybe.
It even mentions in the article that this was just prior to the world wars when there was specifically a resurgence of racially aggravating symbols across the country.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I’m good with naming them only after Union victories if going with Civil War battles. We don’t name our vessels after battles we lost in other wars, do we? Legit question, by the way. I don’t know offhand.

Late reading and responding but I know the Navy has had a USS Bataan, and that was no shining victory.

[Holman]

The modern US military was codified in an era (WW1 to WW2) when the ACW was understood as a family squabble recently overcome. (See for example D-Day's famous 29th Infantry Division, called "Blue and Gray" because its regiments included soldiers from Virginia and from northern states.) Many domestic bases were established or expanded during this era, so you get Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, etc simply because they were seen as recognizing local military figures.

At the time, national healing meant accommodation between whites and whites on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. African-American concerns were not yet part of the national narrative. Clearly times have changed since then.

Besides, (for example) Braxton Bragg was a pretty shitty commander all around.

[LordMortis]

Wow

[Holman]

Proud to see that. I was born in DeKalb County.

[malchior]

Pretty awesome. On a random note I saw a confederate flag license plate in Edmonton on Friday on the way to the airport. Thought it was odd...but not familiar with linkages to Canada with the Confederacy and/or potential other meanings.

[Isgrimnur]

Stay classy, Alabama.

CNN

As cities and states grapple with the future of Confederate monuments, the Alabama Supreme Court has weighed in on one: Putting plywood around its base violated state law.

The court on Wednesday upheld the state's protections of the monuments and cited Birmingham for building a black wooden box around the memorial. The city will be hit with a $25,000 fine.

Earlier this year, Jefferson County Circuit Judge Michael Graffeo overturned the Alabama Memorial Preservation Act, saying it violated the free-speech rights of communities.

That 2017 law -- directed at local governments -- bars the removal, renaming, removal and alteration of monuments, memorial streets, memorial buildings and architecturally significant buildings located on public property for 40 or more years.
...
The high court heard arguments on whether the plywood screen "altered" or "otherwise disturbed" the monument. In its 9-0 ruling, the justices said that it did by obstructing the view.

As to Birmingham's argument that it has a right to free speech, the court ruled "the city cannot assert any substantive constitutional rights against its creator state."

[Zarathud]

Irony, thy name is States Rights.

[dbt1949]

Some day they will do all this to Vietnam veterans too.

[Kurth]

Some day they will do all this to Vietnam veterans too.

Some say the Earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. Some say our President isn't an orangutang. Some say a lot of stuff.

[dbt1949]

[stessier]

Some day they will do all this to Vietnam veterans too.

Some say the Earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. Some say our President isn't an orangutang. Some say a lot of stuff.

Did you misread his quote?

[Holman]

If I had to guess, I'd say this was the work of drunk pissed-off kids rather than any political statement. (I honestly can't think of a group held in higher public regard than veterans. Examples of asshole graffiti do nothing to change that.)

This is a whole world away from the debate over Confederate monuments.

[El Guapo]

If I had to guess, I'd say this was the work of drunk pissed-off kids rather than any political statement. (I honestly can't think of a group held in higher public regard than veterans. Examples of asshole graffiti do nothing to change that.)

This is a whole world away from the debate over Confederate monuments.

Also, seems like this comparison is implicitly equating U.S. military veterans with Confederate veterans, in terms of status and where they are / should be in national memory? Seems odd to me. Why would questions about how to memoralize the veterans of an insurrection against the U.S. government (a literally traitorous cause) mean that people will one day turn on U.S. veterans from the Vietnam War?

[LawBeefaroni]

If I had to guess, I'd say this was the work of drunk pissed-off kids rather than any political statement. (I honestly can't think of a group held in higher public regard than veterans. Examples of asshole graffiti do nothing to change that.)

This is a whole world away from the debate over Confederate monuments.

Also, seems like this comparison is implicitly equating U.S. military veterans with Confederate veterans, in terms of status and where they are / should be in national memory? Seems odd to me. Why would questions about how to memoralize the veterans of an insurrection against the U.S. government (a literally traitorous cause) mean that people will one day turn on U.S. veterans from the Vietnam War?

Well, did turn on them once. I'd like to think we learned a valuable lesson but can't blame Vietnam vets for being doubtful.


Side note, I'm working on a project to identify and catalog all the veterans' memorials in my neighborhood. I have about 12 I'm aware of but there are probably several we haven't found yet (many were put up by block clubs on the sides of buildings during/immediately after wars and are hidden or covered) . 9 WWII, 3 Korea. No Vietnam. Ultimately we may put up a Vietnam one.

[El Guapo]

If I had to guess, I'd say this was the work of drunk pissed-off kids rather than any political statement. (I honestly can't think of a group held in higher public regard than veterans. Examples of asshole graffiti do nothing to change that.)

This is a whole world away from the debate over Confederate monuments.

Also, seems like this comparison is implicitly equating U.S. military veterans with Confederate veterans, in terms of status and where they are / should be in national memory? Seems odd to me. Why would questions about how to memoralize the veterans of an insurrection against the U.S. government (a literally traitorous cause) mean that people will one day turn on U.S. veterans from the Vietnam War?

Well, did turn on them once. I'd like to think we learned a valuable lesson but can't blame Vietnam vets for being doubtful.


Side note, I'm working on a project to identify and catalog all the veterans' memorials in my neighborhood. I have about 12 I'm aware of but there are probably several we haven't found yet (many were put up by block clubs on the sides of buildings during/immediately after wars and are hidden or covered) . 9 WWII, 3 Korea. No Vietnam. Ultimately we may put up a Vietnam one.

Yeah, I would think that hostility to Vietnam Vets would be more the issue than how Confederate vets were / are treated. But I think it's fair to say that the hostility to Vietnam Vets (which was mostly contemporaneous with the war) has subsided, and I'm not sure there's much of a reason to expect it to come back.

[Blackhawk]

Don't mistake the actions of individuals for the views of a society. The anti-vietnam wave of the 60s and 70s was a product of the blind idealism of the era, and we grew past it. Vietnam veterans are generally respected the same as any other veterans, and many Americans are ashamed at how they were treated, both by the protestors and by the government. We've had wars since that were unjustified and unpopular, and people went out of their way to make it clear that despite their feelings about the politics, they supported the troops themselves. We have, I like to think, learned our lesson.

The Confederacy, on the other hand, is a completely different matter. It's more akin to why there are no Nazi monuments in Germany. The cause was a shameful one, and doesn't need to be memorialized heroically.

[LawBeefaroni]

We've had wars since that were unjustified and unpopular, and people went out of their way to make it clear that despite their feelings about the politics, they supported the troops themselves. We have, I like to think, learned our lesson.

The lesson we appear to have learned is to trot out our new veterans at sporting events, spout off rote "thank you for your service," and leave them to fend off depression, PTSD, and everything else on their own.

[Blackhawk]

Fair point. But that's still a far cry from throwing things at them and belittling them.

[hitbyambulance]

We've had wars since that were unjustified and unpopular, and people went out of their way to make it clear that despite their feelings about the politics, they supported the troops themselves. We have, I like to think, learned our lesson.

The lesson we appear to have learned is to trot out our new veterans at sporting events, spout off rote "thank you for your service," and leave them to fend off depression, PTSD, and everything else on their own.

substandard health care in general. my uncle died because the crappy VA hospital he went to misdiagnosed TWO different cancers. (and my aunt died three weeks later, so she could even be considered an indirect casualty)

[Kurth]

Some day they will do all this to Vietnam veterans too.

Some say the Earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. Some say our President isn't an orangutang. Some say a lot of stuff.

Did you misread his quote?

Yep. I did. Same general point, though, which is made better by some of the later posts: Any equivalence between confederate monuments and memorials to Vietnam veterans (or vets from any conflict, regardless of popular support for that conflict) is entirely false.

[Smoove_B]

Nikki Haley, trying to take it back!

https://twitter.com/JasonSCampbell/stat ... 0329712641

Nikki Haley says the Confederate flag was about "service, and sacrifice, and heritage" until Dylan Roof "hijacked" it

Service, sacrifice and heritage. Those are three words I would not use to describe the Confederate flag, no.

[Isgrimnur]

Service, sacrifice and heritage. Those are three words I would not use to describe the Confederate flag, no.

Not without appropriate adjectives or prepositional phrases.

[Isgrimnur]

WaPo

Visions of sugar plums were not dancing in the heads of officials in Wake Forest, N.C. Instead, they saw protesters violently clashing with members of a local Confederate group who were set to march in the town’s 72nd annual Christmas parade later this month.

So to be safe, the town canceled it.

In a Wednesday night video message, Wake Forest Mayor Vivian Jones announced that the town’s downtown board of directors voted to cancel the Dec. 14 Christmas parade out of concern that “outside agitators” would show up to protest or defend the Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy, who planned to march in the event.

The decision in Wake Forest, located less than 20 miles outside Raleigh, comes almost a week after another nearby town, Garner, N.C., announced it was canceling its Christmas parade over possible protests of a float sponsored by a local Confederate group, the Raleigh News & Observer reported.

By the end of her video announcement, Jones was fighting tears.

“Based on information we have received in recent days, this year’s event has the potential to be one marked not by marching bands and Santa Claus but instead by protests between clashing groups from outside Wake Forest, with innocent bystanders caught in the middle,” Jones said. “It is due to these concerns that I support the decision of the Wake Forest Downtown Board of Directors to deny these outside agitators the opportunity to use Wake Forest to spread hate and incite violence.”

[Holman]

...until Dylan Roof "hijacked" it.

(Some of the kids in that photo are probably alive and watching Fox right now.)

[$iljanus]

...until Dylan Roof "hijacked" it.

(Some of the kids in that photo are probably alive and watching Fox right now.)

Or in the current administration...

[LawBeefaroni]

She's actually giving a big shout out to Roof, knowingly or not. That's exactly what he wants and the media has been very good about keeping his name out of things. But there she goes...

[Isgrimnur]

NPR

A judge has overturned a contentious settlement that the University of North Carolina system reached with the Sons of Confederate Veterans over the Confederate monument known as Silent Sam.

The November 2019 agreement required the UNC system to give Silent Sam to the Sons of Confederate Veterans, along with $2.5 million for its preservation and display. It was announced within minutes of a lawsuit filed by the group.

Orange County Superior Court Judge Allen Baddour — who originally signed off on that settlement — ruled Wednesday that the group lacked standing to bring its lawsuit in the first place.

[LordMortis]

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... bases.html

As states continue to grapple with the passionate debate over whether to display statues and other tributes to Confederate leaders, Marines have been told the materials won't be tolerated on any of the Corps' installations.

Commandant Gen. David Berger last week instructed top Marine leaders to remove Confederate-related paraphernalia from the service's bases worldwide. The directive is one of several forward-leaning initiatives Berger said he is "prioritizing for immediate execution."

It's weird the things I get happy over when I generally try to be mindful and respectful. This is just one of me irrational bugaboos. A symbol of treasonous pride I can't get past. I never saw it when I was kid watching The Dukes of Hazard but then guess I never saw local skin heads with battleflag patches or angry white pickup drivers addicted to guns and beer with whatever it is they have to prove when I was a kid either. (Come to think of it, drunks with guns and something intangible to prove is primarily why I never took on becoming a next generation of hunter after my parents and their parents before them)


Do what you want on your stuff. But thank you Commandant Gen. David Berger for taking it out of the Marines.

[Blackhawk]

I wonder how long until Trump counters it, the Commandant resigns, and Trump assigns Rush Limbaugh to the position.

[Isgrimnur]

CNN

State Sen. Dale Zorn, a Republican from Ida, apologized in a pair of Twitter posts Saturday for the face mask that he wore on the Michigan Senate floor on Friday.

"I'm sorry for my choice of pattern on the face mask I wore yesterday on the Senate floor. I did not intend to offend anyone; however, I realize that I did, and for that I am sorry. Those who know me best know that I do not support the things this pattern represents," Zorn said.

Zorn, in an interview with CNN affiliate WLNS, said his wife made the face mask for him and it was not a Confederate flag. He said that even if it were a Confederate flag, it represents a part of our history and we should be teaching about the "atrocities that happened during that time" so it doesn't happen again.

He told WLNS the mask was a pattern similar to that of either the Kentucky or Tennessee flag.

"My actions were an error in judgment for which there are no excuses and I will learn from this episode," he added in his apology statement on social media.

The correct bullshit answer would have been Arkansas or Mississippi, Senator.