Random randomness

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Anonymous Bosch
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:59 pm I've been speaking with the founder of a large pigeon rescue center. It turns out that the medicine used to treat her specific problem in every other bird species in the world is the same. And that same medicine is toxic in pigeons and doves. The vet didn't know, and gave her the treatment they'd give any other bird. And I continued to syringe it down her throat every night, which is what probably killed her.
Oof, that's awful. So sorry for your loss.
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Re: Random randomness

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Anonymous Bosch wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:04 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:59 pm I've been speaking with the founder of a large pigeon rescue center. It turns out that the medicine used to treat her specific problem in every other bird species in the world is the same. And that same medicine is toxic in pigeons and doves. The vet didn't know, and gave her the treatment they'd give any other bird. And I continued to syringe it down her throat every night, which is what probably killed her.
Oof, that's awful. So sorry for your loss.
I gathered up all of the relevant information including clinical studies that shows a 75% mortality rate for doses less than we were giving her and sent it to the vet. It's just a fluke that doves and pigeons are the only birds for which it is toxic, and even avian vets don't realize it because they see them so rarely. I made sure to thank them for the effort and to tell them that there was no blame.

I know that I was following the best advice I had, from a professional, and that I was doing it with love and all the right intentions. I'm blameless.

And yet the knowledge that for five nights I sat there with someone who trusted and depended on me, told her I was going to help her feel better, and then pumped her full of the poison that killed her. It wasn't my fault, and I know that. But I still can't shake the knowledge that it was my hands. I won't be sleeping well tonight.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Daehawk »

You dont actually know thats what killed her BH. Also I would never mention this knowledge to the child. Let it be. Anyways you tried to help her and like you said went on the opinion of a practiced pro. Ive had to do that with both animals and people and Ive lost both.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

Given the prognosis of the diagnosis, and the lethality of the medicine in pigeons, we can be fairly confident that it is what killed her. From reading the studies the symptoms, the timing, everything is right in line with fenbendazole toxicity.

And of course I will never mention it to the kids.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Z-Corn »

I wish I could say something to take some of your pain away but I don't think that's possible. Sorry man. You know your intent. You didn't do anything wrong.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

Holman wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 9:27 pm That's a fifth of the crew (not counting bowlers), yet we never had a single bowling episode.
We never saw TNG dolphins, either.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Daehawk »

Hmmmm

TOS had a shapely communications officer
TNG had a shapely counselor
VOY had a shapely Borg with implants
ENT had a shapely Vulcan first officer with implants
DS9 had a ..hmmm tough one...maybe first officer but her religion made her wear dowdy clothing (Morn was a bit shapely..well he had a shape)
DIS I have no idea or care to
SNW will have a shapely first officer

I think I see the problem with Discovery.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by hitbyambulance »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:17 pm
Anonymous Bosch wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:04 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:59 pm I've been speaking with the founder of a large pigeon rescue center. It turns out that the medicine used to treat her specific problem in every other bird species in the world is the same. And that same medicine is toxic in pigeons and doves. The vet didn't know, and gave her the treatment they'd give any other bird. And I continued to syringe it down her throat every night, which is what probably killed her.
Oof, that's awful. So sorry for your loss.
I gathered up all of the relevant information including clinical studies that shows a 75% mortality rate for doses less than we were giving her and sent it to the vet. It's just a fluke that doves and pigeons are the only birds for which it is toxic, and even avian vets don't realize it because they see them so rarely. I made sure to thank them for the effort and to tell them that there was no blame.

I know that I was following the best advice I had, from a professional, and that I was doing it with love and all the right intentions. I'm blameless.

And yet the knowledge that for five nights I sat there with someone who trusted and depended on me, told her I was going to help her feel better, and then pumped her full of the poison that killed her. It wasn't my fault, and I know that. But I still can't shake the knowledge that it was my hands. I won't be sleeping well tonight.
utterly tragic. i can only imagine what i would be feeling if i found myself in the same situation.

yet, here is where you can take over from here - resolve to make a difference (for doves and pigeons, if you will) that attempts to not only make things right, but greatly exceeds it. you can't take this back, but you could strive to alleviate or prevent current and future harms. write to every avian vet in the country, informing them of this? adopt another abandoned or injured bird? there's any number of things you could do that would help.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Unagi »

Damn, Blackhawk down. :(

Really sorry to hear you are going through this.

I think getting another bird, to honor the love you all had for Barry, when the time is right is a good idea.
I think that could help your son a lot (knowing Barry would want other's to be taken care of too).
When the time is right, obviously.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

hitbyambulance wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 11:49 pm utterly tragic. i can only imagine what i would be feeling if i found myself in the same situation.

yet, here is where you can take over from here - resolve to make a difference (for doves and pigeons, if you will) that attempts to not only make things right, but greatly exceeds it. you can't take this back, but you could strive to alleviate or prevent current and future harms. write to every avian vet in the country, informing them of this?
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Kraken »

Daehawk wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 11:19 pm Hmmmm

TOS had a shapely communications officer
TNG had a shapely counselor
VOY had a shapely Borg with implants
ENT had a shapely Vulcan first officer with implants
DS9 had a ..hmmm tough one...maybe first officer but her religion made her wear dowdy clothing (Morn was a bit shapely..well he had a shape)
DIS I have no idea or care to
SNW will have a shapely first officer

I think I see the problem with Discovery.
If you're saying that a hot cast member would've make you care about DIS, then I got nothing. Discovery introduced the first-ever chubby crew member (Tilly) and she's become one of its stronger characters. I see that as a subtle diversity move. It's the first time we've seen a woman who isn't flattered by her Starfleet uniform.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Daehawk »

I looked her up. Never seen her but put up with her voice actor for her character in STO. My God she annoyed me to no end with how silly she was. Ugh. Seemed to me she was a character put there simply for PC ...not computer. Another ugh. So not seeing her on the show I dont watch is a plus I guess. I had to quit playing that part of the game.

As a positive she seemed sweet...just annoying.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Kraken »

I'm not going to argue with you about an actress you don't know playing a role you haven't seen in a show you don't watch. You win!
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Holman »

Isgrimnur wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 11:03 pm
Holman wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 9:27 pm That's a fifth of the crew (not counting bowlers), yet we never had a single bowling episode.
We never saw TNG dolphins, either.
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Re: Random randomness

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4 hours of intermittent sleep later, and it's time for a new day. Time to grit my teeth and offer the kids some normality and familiar routines.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Daehawk »

A pic from that crossover episode where Darwin from Seaquest DSV met a dolphin from STTNG

Enlarge Image
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Re: Random randomness

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Which one is which?
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Daehawk »

That one is Darwin. *points*
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Re: Random randomness

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No, I think it's this one. <double points>
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Unagi »

You both just pointed to the same one.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

More pet discussion, spoilered for those who don't want more downers.
Spoiler:
Today was a tough day. I slept about 4 1/2 hours last night, spread out in 45-minute segments. I let the kids sleep in, then got them up and nudged everything back into routines. We ate lunch, watched our favorite lunch show, and played a few hours of Borderlands 3 together. Normal stuff. The idea was to keep them busy and keep their mind off of what happened while it worked its way through their system. It worked. The kids are functioning again (including Ian.) They're talking and getting stuff done. It helped immensely that I was able to tell Ian that I'd arranged a used laptop for him, as he's losing his school loaner tomorrow (see my trading forum post.)

It was exhausting for me, though. I was already tired, and the only way I could keep myself from breaking down was to forcibly yank my mind away from thoughts about her. Keeping busy helped me, too. Let me tell you, I've had a lot of birds in my life. Some were just 'over there' pets, some were friends. I've never before had a bird form a pair bond with me. She'd decided that I was her mate. It's amazing how close they get when that happens, especially as pigeons are very smart, social, affectionate, and mate for life. Once they form that pair bond, they're absolutely devoted to that person. It was an amazing experience.

I had a discussion with the kids today about having another pigeon sometime. We've still got all the necessary 'stuff.' The cage, the bowls, months worth of food, grit, vitamins, the works. What I told the kids, though, was there was a deciding factor: Let's say we get a pigeon named, say, Fred. When we look at Fred, do we think, "Fred", or do we think "Not Barry." When we can think "Fred", then we'll start talking to the rescue centers.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by ImLawBoy »

Our streak of ~3 years of no flooding in the basement came to an end on Thursday night. It wasn't bad, but I spent all day Friday cleaning up. The next streak did not make 3 days, so once the current rains stop I'll be back at it. :grund:
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Holman »

Blackhawk wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 5:26 pm More pet discussion, spoilered for those who don't want more downers.
Spoiler:
Today was a tough day. I slept about 4 1/2 hours last night, spread out in 45-minute segments. I let the kids sleep in, then got them up and nudged everything back into routines. We ate lunch, watched our favorite lunch show, and played a few hours of Borderlands 3 together. Normal stuff. The idea was to keep them busy and keep their mind off of what happened while it worked its way through their system. It worked. The kids are functioning again (including Ian.) They're talking and getting stuff done. It helped immensely that I was able to tell Ian that I'd arranged a used laptop for him, as he's losing his school loaner tomorrow (see my trading forum post.)

It was exhausting for me, though. I was already tired, and the only way I could keep myself from breaking down was to forcibly yank my mind away from thoughts about her. Keeping busy helped me, too. Let me tell you, I've had a lot of birds in my life. Some were just 'over there' pets, some were friends. I've never before had a bird form a pair bond with me. She'd decided that I was her mate. It's amazing how close they get when that happens, especially as pigeons are very smart, social, affectionate, and mate for life. Once they form that pair bond, they're absolutely devoted to that person. It was an amazing experience.

I had a discussion with the kids today about having another pigeon sometime. We've still got all the necessary 'stuff.' The cage, the bowls, months worth of food, grit, vitamins, the works. What I told the kids, though, was there was a deciding factor: Let's say we get a pigeon named, say, Fred. When we look at Fred, do we think, "Fred", or do we think "Not Barry." When we can think "Fred", then we'll start talking to the rescue centers.
Hang in there, and good luck to you and yours.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by ImLawBoy »

I'm watching the local news, and they're reporting that they've re-reversed the flow of the river due to the heavy rains and flooding we've had the last few days (pushing the water into the lake instead of having the down-river flooding). I'm hopeful we'll turn it back soon and start sending our garbage water back to St. Louis where it belongs.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by ImLawBoy »

Help me out here. Is this the way this is supposed to work? Isn't the water supposed to go the other direction?

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Re: Random randomness

Post by Sudy »

I think it depends on which side of Earth's crust you inhabit.

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(I'm sorry about you flood. I hope your long weekend is over soon.)

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Re: Random randomness

Post by Hrothgar »

ImLawBoy wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 am Help me out here. Is this the way this is supposed to work? Isn't the water supposed to go the other direction?
It's a magical spring. You should drink it to see if it has healing properties or makes you immortal. Or it could be cursed. You just never know.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Zarathud »

We have water in the kids’ bathroom. The paint on a corner of the ceiling is bubbling and water is dripping out the fan. New roof vents were put in a month ago, so now I’m second guessing the work.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by gbasden »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 6:58 pm I'm not doing well right now. I can't take much more like this. I've about had my fill of 2020.
I am so very sorry, BH. I've been struggling as well with the loss of some really dear friends and I can't imagine also having to cope with the loss of a beloved pet on top of that compounded by the state of the world right now. If there is anything I can do to help, please feel free to reach out.

Glenn
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Re: Random randomness

Post by LordMortis »

ImLawBoy wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 am Help me out here. Is this the way this is supposed to work? Isn't the water supposed to go the other direction?

Image
The best you can hope for is that tree roots are growing into your storm drainage. It's about $150 from a reputable plumber. Though a $150 fix means after so many years they'll grow back. If you see sewage or drainage from you house, you're not so lucky.

(I should add $150 from a reputable plumber in SE Michigan wages)
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Paingod »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:30 pmGiven the prognosis of the diagnosis, and the lethality of the medicine in pigeons, we can be fairly confident that it is what killed her. From reading the studies the symptoms, the timing, everything is right in line with fenbendazole toxicity.
I'm very sorry to hear for your loss, and know it's crushing to think the cause was right there in your hands. I can't imagine the suck you're going through, especially with the child being so absolutely attached. :(

We're dealing with our own poisoned animal issue right now and don't really know what to do. I'll spoiler the story so it doesn't take up half a page.
Spoiler:
18 months ago my wife sold a Husky puppy to a runner. That runner loved his new running partner and they did everything together - until October of last years when the dog started being weirdly aggressive. It died down and he became his lovable self again, but again, after a couple months he went mental - then it died down and he was lovable. Then in March he went so insane that he actually bit part of his owner's pinky finger off.

They called us in confusion and desperation, hoping we could help. The dog was being hyper-aggressive and protective of his kennel, collar, and leash. My wife wanted to get involved because she had sold him this dog and was worried, as a breeder, that there might be some hidden aggression in the bloodline of her kennel. She agreed to take the dog temporarily since the owner wasn't going to be able to be anywhere near his dog after losing part of his finger.

We got to their house and were greeted by a happy, bouncing Husky that did everything right. He greeted us, sniffed us, let us pet him ... then he got weird and huddled under the kitchen table. He was wearing his leash and wouldn't let anyone touch it or him. I slipped on my cut-proof gloves and then a work gloves over those. I slowly approached him and he growled, but then rolled over and exposed his tummy. I gave him a gentle rub and then scratch under his chin. We locked eyes for half a second and I knew the chin was out. I barely started pulling my hand back when he snapped at it, full force. The only reason I have an index finger on my right hand is because of the cut-proof glove. He bit hard enough to bruise me to the bone through chain mail.

We were able to coax him out from under the table with promises of "go for a run?" and led him out to our car where we had a kennel in the back. He happily jumped up into the car and claimed the kennel as his. We locked him in quickly and his family bid him farewell.

When we got home, the dog was beyond insane. He had pulled his leash into the kennel with him and was doing his best impression of snaring, snapping, vicious murderdog anytime we put our hands near a latch to try and get the leash. Huskies are not small dogs with small teeth. Seeing a 70lb dog wanting to dismember you with nothing but a thin wire frame between the two of you is unsettling. It took a good 20 minutes of distracting him on one side and reaching in with a stick on the other to push the leash out so we had something to hold onto to control the dog.

Great, so we had a ball of death on a cloth rope. Now what? Well, he's got to come out. I did consider just letting him have the car, but I needed it to get to work eventually. I volunteered and put the gloves back on, unsure if I'd be able to grapple with the dog if it came to it. I stood as far back as I could and my wife opened the kennel. He wanted us dead, but not enough to leave the cage. I pulled on the leash enough to drag him out...

... and as soon as he was out of the kennel, he stopped with the murder and wanted to run and play. What. The. F$#k??? The dog then proceeded to poop not once, not twice, not three times - but five full loads as I walked him around the property. He was so stressed out that he was backed up for two or three day's worth of fecal matter.

We built a routine where we'd lead the dog in and out of a cage in the basement for the night and leave him outside in an open-air kennel he could run in near the other huskies. He was vicious anytime anyone got near his cage or touched his collar or leash. On the third day my wife made the mistake (as I knew she would) of "forgetting" (too complacent) to put the protective gloves on when dealing with him and earned herself a nasty puncture from a bite that needed stitches. Everything was fine until he grabbed an oily rag out of a bin when he came into the basement and she reached over to grab it from him.

Fast-forward weeks later and the dog is completely calm now. He doesn't show any signs of hate or aggression, but will nip at hands that displease him - like touching the back of his neck or cleaning him.

So what gives and why is this a poisoning story?

Bravecto from Merck. Each outbreak of intense aggression in the dog was linked like clockwork with an injected dose of this flea and tick medication. In short, the dog became hyper-aggressive afterwards for weeks and then returned to normal before his next dose - and he was getting worse with each subsequent dose. The first one in made him nasty. The second one made him hostile. The third one made him insane.

We worked with our vet and the owner's vet to get them to open a case with Merck about it, but nothing seems to have come of it. It's clearly a known issue as a Google search turns up more than one tale of it being linked to dogs going insane.
So now we've got a Husky we're not sure what to do with. He's a sweet, beautiful boy - but has learned that he can snap at hands to get what he wants and very likely will be put down if we bring him to a shelter, and we have no place to permanently house him - never mind that we've got kids and other animals we don't really want him interacting with. His owner doesn't seem to want him back and we only have a temporary agreement to hold the dog.

So think twice about Bravecto from Merck if your vet recommends it. It seems to have clearly driven this dog insane, and there seem to be a lot of other unlisted side-effects.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Unagi »

ImLawBoy wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 am Help me out here. Is this the way this is supposed to work? Isn't the water supposed to go the other direction?

Image
I've not posted - but we got the same exact thing Thursday night - and then again !!! - last night.


Dealing with a flooded basement - OMG this sucks.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Daehawk »

I think drains like that are just installed backwards. I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night so might be wrong on that.

Good luck with it all though. Maybe it wont last long. Wonder if you could seal it with a rubber gasket and something heavy?
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Unagi »

Yep, you need to flip that drain cover over the other way 'round.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

When you call the plumber, ask about a backflow preventer.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by ImLawBoy »

I had someone put in something at the drains that was supposed to stop it, but it didn't take I guess. The last time we had someone come out to quote us a fix, it was in the $12-15K range because of all the work that would need to be done, and that didn't take into account the iron fence out front they'd need to remove and I have to get replaced. It hadn't happened in a long time, and I was hoping that a lot of the water/sewer work that had been going on in my neighborhood because of new construction had fixed the issue. Apparently not.
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

Depends on if it’s coming from inside the house or not.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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LordMortis
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:26 pm

Re: Random randomness

Post by LordMortis »

Isgrimnur wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:21 pm When you call the plumber, ask about a backflow preventer.
That's what tree roots tend to screw up. I what I assume the problem was if the water is clean and came in after a storm.

ImLawBoy wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:24 pm I had someone put in something at the drains that was supposed to stop it, but it didn't take I guess. The last time we had someone come out to quote us a fix, it was in the $12-15K range because of all the work that would need to be done, and that didn't take into account the iron fence out front they'd need to remove and I have to get replaced. It hadn't happened in a long time, and I was hoping that a lot of the water/sewer work that had been going on in my neighborhood because of new construction had fixed the issue. Apparently not.
Ugh. That was what I feared when I was getting storm/thawing back up. I was dancing a dance when he just took a huge auger and cleaned up the drainage so "backflow preventer" could close.
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Jaymon
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Re: Random randomness

Post by Jaymon »

im just so tired all the time
Bunnies like beer because its made from hops.
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Holman
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Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: Random randomness

Post by Holman »

ImLawBoy wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 am Help me out here. Is this the way this is supposed to work? Isn't the water supposed to go the other direction?

Image
Dammit! You bought the house upside down!!

Seriously, though, you have my sympathies. Just know that it could be worse.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
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