Random randomness

Anonymous Bosch · Post by **Anonymous Bosch** » Sat May 16, 2020 10:04 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 8:59 pm I've been speaking with the founder of a large pigeon rescue center. It turns out that the medicine used to treat her specific problem in every other bird species in the world is the same. And that same medicine is toxic in pigeons and doves. The vet didn't know, and gave her the treatment they'd give any other bird. And I continued to syringe it down her throat every night, which is what probably killed her.

Oof, that's awful. So sorry for your loss.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat May 16, 2020 10:17 pm

Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 10:04 pm
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 8:59 pm I've been speaking with the founder of a large pigeon rescue center. It turns out that the medicine used to treat her specific problem in every other bird species in the world is the same. And that same medicine is toxic in pigeons and doves. The vet didn't know, and gave her the treatment they'd give any other bird. And I continued to syringe it down her throat every night, which is what probably killed her.
Oof, that's awful. So sorry for your loss.

I gathered up all of the relevant information including clinical studies that shows a 75% mortality rate for doses less than we were giving her and sent it to the vet. It's just a fluke that doves and pigeons are the only birds for which it is toxic, and even avian vets don't realize it because they see them so rarely. I made sure to thank them for the effort and to tell them that there was no blame.

I know that I was following the best advice I had, from a professional, and that I was doing it with love and all the right intentions. I'm blameless.

And yet the knowledge that for five nights I sat there with someone who trusted and depended on me, told her I was going to help her feel better, and then pumped her full of the poison that killed her. It wasn't my fault, and I know that. But I still can't shake the knowledge that it was my hands. I won't be sleeping well tonight.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sat May 16, 2020 10:27 pm

You dont actually know thats what killed her BH. Also I would never mention this knowledge to the child. Let it be. Anyways you tried to help her and like you said went on the opinion of a practiced pro. Ive had to do that with both animals and people and Ive lost both.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat May 16, 2020 10:30 pm

Given the prognosis of the diagnosis, and the lethality of the medicine in pigeons, we can be fairly confident that it is what killed her. From reading the studies the symptoms, the timing, everything is right in line with fenbendazole toxicity.

And of course I will never mention it to the kids.

Z-Corn · Post by **Z-Corn** » Sat May 16, 2020 10:52 pm

I wish I could say something to take some of your pain away but I don't think that's possible. Sorry man. You know your intent. You didn't do anything wrong.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sat May 16, 2020 11:03 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 9:27 pm That's a fifth of the crew (not counting bowlers), yet we never had a single bowling episode.

We never saw TNG dolphins, either.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sat May 16, 2020 11:19 pm

Hmmmm

TOS had a shapely communications officer
TNG had a shapely counselor
VOY had a shapely Borg with implants
ENT had a shapely Vulcan first officer with implants
DS9 had a ..hmmm tough one...maybe first officer but her religion made her wear dowdy clothing (Morn was a bit shapely..well he had a shape)
DIS I have no idea or care to
SNW will have a shapely first officer

I think I see the problem with Discovery.

hitbyambulance · Post by **hitbyambulance** » Sat May 16, 2020 11:49 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 10:17 pm
Anonymous Bosch wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 10:04 pm
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 8:59 pm I've been speaking with the founder of a large pigeon rescue center. It turns out that the medicine used to treat her specific problem in every other bird species in the world is the same. And that same medicine is toxic in pigeons and doves. The vet didn't know, and gave her the treatment they'd give any other bird. And I continued to syringe it down her throat every night, which is what probably killed her.
Oof, that's awful. So sorry for your loss.
I gathered up all of the relevant information including clinical studies that shows a 75% mortality rate for doses less than we were giving her and sent it to the vet. It's just a fluke that doves and pigeons are the only birds for which it is toxic, and even avian vets don't realize it because they see them so rarely. I made sure to thank them for the effort and to tell them that there was no blame.

I know that I was following the best advice I had, from a professional, and that I was doing it with love and all the right intentions. I'm blameless.

And yet the knowledge that for five nights I sat there with someone who trusted and depended on me, told her I was going to help her feel better, and then pumped her full of the poison that killed her. It wasn't my fault, and I know that. But I still can't shake the knowledge that it was my hands. I won't be sleeping well tonight.

utterly tragic. i can only imagine what i would be feeling if i found myself in the same situation.

yet, here is where you can take over from here - resolve to make a difference (for doves and pigeons, if you will) that attempts to not only make things right, but greatly exceeds it. you can't take this back, but you could strive to alleviate or prevent current and future harms. write to every avian vet in the country, informing them of this? adopt another abandoned or injured bird? there's any number of things you could do that would help.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Sun May 17, 2020 12:08 am

Damn, Blackhawk down.

Really sorry to hear you are going through this.

I think getting another bird, to honor the love you all had for Barry, when the time is right is a good idea.
I think that could help your son a lot (knowing Barry would want other's to be taken care of too).
When the time is right, obviously.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sun May 17, 2020 12:18 am

hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 11:49 pm utterly tragic. i can only imagine what i would be feeling if i found myself in the same situation.

yet, here is where you can take over from here - resolve to make a difference (for doves and pigeons, if you will) that attempts to not only make things right, but greatly exceeds it. you can't take this back, but you could strive to alleviate or prevent current and future harms. write to every avian vet in the country, informing them of this?

Association of Avian Veterinarians

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sun May 17, 2020 12:51 am

Daehawk wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 11:19 pm Hmmmm

TOS had a shapely communications officer
TNG had a shapely counselor
VOY had a shapely Borg with implants
ENT had a shapely Vulcan first officer with implants
DS9 had a ..hmmm tough one...maybe first officer but her religion made her wear dowdy clothing (Morn was a bit shapely..well he had a shape)
DIS I have no idea or care to
SNW will have a shapely first officer

I think I see the problem with Discovery.

If you're saying that a hot cast member would've make you care about DIS, then I got nothing. Discovery introduced the first-ever chubby crew member (Tilly) and she's become one of its stronger characters. I see that as a subtle diversity move. It's the first time we've seen a woman who isn't flattered by her Starfleet uniform.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sun May 17, 2020 1:54 am

I looked her up. Never seen her but put up with her voice actor for her character in STO. My God she annoyed me to no end with how silly she was. Ugh. Seemed to me she was a character put there simply for PC ...not computer. Another ugh. So not seeing her on the show I dont watch is a plus I guess. I had to quit playing that part of the game.

As a positive she seemed sweet...just annoying.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sun May 17, 2020 9:44 am

I'm not going to argue with you about an actress you don't know playing a role you haven't seen in a show you don't watch. You win!

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun May 17, 2020 10:04 am

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 11:03 pm
Holman wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 9:27 pm That's a fifth of the crew (not counting bowlers), yet we never had a single bowling episode.
We never saw TNG dolphins, either.

BAM!

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun May 17, 2020 11:32 am

4 hours of intermittent sleep later, and it's time for a new day. Time to grit my teeth and offer the kids some normality and familiar routines.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sun May 17, 2020 11:51 am

A pic from that crossover episode where Darwin from Seaquest DSV met a dolphin from STTNG

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Sun May 17, 2020 2:53 pm

Which one is which?

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sun May 17, 2020 2:59 pm

That one is Darwin. *points*

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Sun May 17, 2020 3:46 pm

No, I think it's this one. <double points>

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Sun May 17, 2020 4:51 pm

You both just pointed to the same one.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun May 17, 2020 5:26 pm

More pet discussion, spoilered for those who don't want more downers.

Spoiler:

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Sun May 17, 2020 6:45 pm

Our streak of ~3 years of no flooding in the basement came to an end on Thursday night. It wasn't bad, but I spent all day Friday cleaning up. The next streak did not make 3 days, so once the current rains stop I'll be back at it.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun May 17, 2020 6:56 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sun May 17, 2020 5:26 pm More pet discussion, spoilered for those who don't want more downers.

Spoiler:
Today was a tough day. I slept about 4 1/2 hours last night, spread out in 45-minute segments. I let the kids sleep in, then got them up and nudged everything back into routines. We ate lunch, watched our favorite lunch show, and played a few hours of Borderlands 3 together. Normal stuff. The idea was to keep them busy and keep their mind off of what happened while it worked its way through their system. It worked. The kids are functioning again (including Ian.) They're talking and getting stuff done. It helped immensely that I was able to tell Ian that I'd arranged a used laptop for him, as he's losing his school loaner tomorrow (see my trading forum post.)

It was exhausting for me, though. I was already tired, and the only way I could keep myself from breaking down was to forcibly yank my mind away from thoughts about her. Keeping busy helped me, too. Let me tell you, I've had a lot of birds in my life. Some were just 'over there' pets, some were friends. I've never before had a bird form a pair bond with me. She'd decided that I was her mate. It's amazing how close they get when that happens, especially as pigeons are very smart, social, affectionate, and mate for life. Once they form that pair bond, they're absolutely devoted to that person. It was an amazing experience.

I had a discussion with the kids today about having another pigeon sometime. We've still got all the necessary 'stuff.' The cage, the bowls, months worth of food, grit, vitamins, the works. What I told the kids, though, was there was a deciding factor: Let's say we get a pigeon named, say, Fred. When we look at Fred, do we think, "Fred", or do we think "Not Barry." When we can think "Fred", then we'll start talking to the rescue centers.

Hang in there, and good luck to you and yours.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Sun May 17, 2020 11:42 pm

Daehawk wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 2:45 pm Chicago reversed its river to save itself from pollution

I'm watching the local news, and they're reporting that they've re-reversed the flow of the river due to the heavy rains and flooding we've had the last few days (pushing the water into the lake instead of having the down-river flooding). I'm hopeful we'll turn it back soon and start sending our garbage water back to St. Louis where it belongs.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 am

Help me out here. Is this the way this is supposed to work? Isn't the water supposed to go the other direction?

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Mon May 18, 2020 1:04 am

I think it depends on which side of Earth's crust you inhabit.

"Before I knew it, I was aboard the hover vessel and was not heading into outer space, but inner space, heading towards the earth's molten core. For that is the domain of the third alien, whose name, he soon told me was Lord Kinbote."

(I'm sorry about you flood. I hope your long weekend is over soon.)

Hrothgar · Post by **Hrothgar** » Mon May 18, 2020 1:50 am

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 am Help me out here. Is this the way this is supposed to work? Isn't the water supposed to go the other direction?

It's a magical spring. You should drink it to see if it has healing properties or makes you immortal. Or it could be cursed. You just never know.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Mon May 18, 2020 1:58 am

We have water in the kids’ bathroom. The paint on a corner of the ceiling is bubbling and water is dripping out the fan. New roof vents were put in a month ago, so now I’m second guessing the work.

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Mon May 18, 2020 2:42 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 6:58 pm I'm not doing well right now. I can't take much more like this. I've about had my fill of 2020.

I am so very sorry, BH. I've been struggling as well with the loss of some really dear friends and I can't imagine also having to cope with the loss of a beloved pet on top of that compounded by the state of the world right now. If there is anything I can do to help, please feel free to reach out.

Glenn

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon May 18, 2020 6:55 am

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 am Help me out here. Is this the way this is supposed to work? Isn't the water supposed to go the other direction?

The best you can hope for is that tree roots are growing into your storm drainage. It's about $150 from a reputable plumber. Though a $150 fix means after so many years they'll grow back. If you see sewage or drainage from you house, you're not so lucky.

(I should add $150 from a reputable plumber in SE Michigan wages)

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon May 18, 2020 8:30 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 10:30 pmGiven the prognosis of the diagnosis, and the lethality of the medicine in pigeons, we can be fairly confident that it is what killed her. From reading the studies the symptoms, the timing, everything is right in line with fenbendazole toxicity.

I'm very sorry to hear for your loss, and know it's crushing to think the cause was right there in your hands. I can't imagine the suck you're going through, especially with the child being so absolutely attached.

We're dealing with our own poisoned animal issue right now and don't really know what to do. I'll spoiler the story so it doesn't take up half a page.

Spoiler:

So now we've got a Husky we're not sure what to do with. He's a sweet, beautiful boy - but has learned that he can snap at hands to get what he wants and very likely will be put down if we bring him to a shelter, and we have no place to permanently house him - never mind that we've got kids and other animals we don't really want him interacting with. His owner doesn't seem to want him back and we only have a temporary agreement to hold the dog.

So think twice about Bravecto from Merck if your vet recommends it. It seems to have clearly driven this dog insane, and there seem to be a lot of other unlisted side-effects.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon May 18, 2020 8:45 am

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 am Help me out here. Is this the way this is supposed to work? Isn't the water supposed to go the other direction?

I've not posted - but we got the same exact thing Thursday night - and then again !!! - last night.

Dealing with a flooded basement - OMG this sucks.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Mon May 18, 2020 11:08 am

I think drains like that are just installed backwards. I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night so might be wrong on that.

Good luck with it all though. Maybe it wont last long. Wonder if you could seal it with a rubber gasket and something heavy?

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon May 18, 2020 11:20 am

Yep, you need to flip that drain cover over the other way 'round.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon May 18, 2020 12:21 pm

When you call the plumber, ask about a backflow preventer.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon May 18, 2020 12:24 pm

I had someone put in something at the drains that was supposed to stop it, but it didn't take I guess. The last time we had someone come out to quote us a fix, it was in the $12-15K range because of all the work that would need to be done, and that didn't take into account the iron fence out front they'd need to remove and I have to get replaced. It hadn't happened in a long time, and I was hoping that a lot of the water/sewer work that had been going on in my neighborhood because of new construction had fixed the issue. Apparently not.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon May 18, 2020 12:25 pm

Depends on if it’s coming from inside the house or not.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon May 18, 2020 12:55 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Mon May 18, 2020 12:21 pm When you call the plumber, ask about a backflow preventer.

That's what tree roots tend to screw up. I what I assume the problem was if the water is clean and came in after a storm.

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon May 18, 2020 12:24 pm I had someone put in something at the drains that was supposed to stop it, but it didn't take I guess. The last time we had someone come out to quote us a fix, it was in the $12-15K range because of all the work that would need to be done, and that didn't take into account the iron fence out front they'd need to remove and I have to get replaced. It hadn't happened in a long time, and I was hoping that a lot of the water/sewer work that had been going on in my neighborhood because of new construction had fixed the issue. Apparently not.

Ugh. That was what I feared when I was getting storm/thawing back up. I was dancing a dance when he just took a huge auger and cleaned up the drainage so "backflow preventer" could close.

Jaymon · Post by **Jaymon** » Mon May 18, 2020 2:26 pm

im just so tired all the time

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon May 18, 2020 8:02 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon May 18, 2020 12:45 am Help me out here. Is this the way this is supposed to work? Isn't the water supposed to go the other direction?

Dammit! You bought the house upside down!!

Seriously, though, you have my sympathies. Just know that it could be worse.