Trump vs. Biden - the Final Showdown

[TheMix]

"persistent pattern"?

How many times has Biden spoken off script? 10k? 20k? And you provided 3 examples. That you find that a "persistent pattern" is likely far more telling of your prejudices than his.

I have quoted three and I think that is too many. Can I ask how many racist comments you think are OK?

Don't be an ass. I never stated that comments that could be perceived as racist are okay. I said that your jump to calling three comments out of tens of thousands of comments a "persistent pattern" is absurd.

And for the record, I'm going to take the stance that you are racist. I'm willing to bet that if we could look at every comment you ever made since you learned to speak, that we'd find at least 3 comments that could be taken as racist.

I'm reasonably confident that I've probably made some comments that were not fully thought through. Hell, by your measure I'm likely a sexist as well. And likely a lot of other "-ists".

The personal attacks are not really needed here. You could do better, I think.

It was not a personal attack. It was an opinion on how you were behaving.

You chose to ignore the point I was making and then imply I was stating something completely different. I would like to think that you could do better as well. You don't want to get called on bad behavior? Then don't do it.

Let me state it clearly then. I do not think racist comments are okay. Zero. None. However, unlike you, I don't believe that making a racist comment automatically makes someone a racist. I take other factors into account. Was it intentional? Is there a pattern? And, yes, I do feel that it takes a lot more than 3 to be a pattern. Unless we are talking about 3 times in a single conversation. But even then, I'd want to look at other conversations.

I can't imagine what kind of a life that you have. You clearly see things in black or white. Zero tolerance. Best of luck with that.

[Carpet_pissr]

I wonder if we asked Michelle or Barack, off-camera, off the record, if they thought Biden was a racist, what would they say? We will never know of course, but based just on the information we have about those three people, what would your best guess be?

You're being ridiculous, bro. Or you are using the word "racist" much too easily, like too many people these days.

It genuinely fills my heart with hope and joy in these dark days, to see us, as a nation, finally wake up to our previously almost unspoken problem and history wrt race. We've just never dealt with it "out in the open" as we are now. Unfortunately it took much longer than it should have, and way too much injustice and death for black people for us to get to that point, but here we are. I also think that we have (as a nation) a tendency to overreact to "big events" like this, and this seems to be no exception. I am NOT talking about the protests, which were EXACTLY the kind of reaction that was needed, and appropriate IMO. "Good trouble", as it were. I'm talking about culturally, and socially, the norm has very quickly become to default to calling someone a racist. Same thing happened with the Me Too movement...there were I think quite a few casualties in the response to that, which were not warranted.

[Zarathud]

"persistent pattern"?

How many times has Biden spoken off script? 10k? 20k? And you provided 3 examples. That you find that a "persistent pattern" is likely far more telling of your prejudices than his.

I have quoted three and I think that is too many. Can I ask how many racist comments you think are OK?

You are full of bullshit, Yojimbo.

I, personally, have made more than 3 insensitive comments in my lifetime. Doesn’t make me a racist.

If your intent is to “both sides” Biden and Trump on race, you have picked the wrong forum.

[YellowKing]

As someone who grew up in the south and was essentially immersed in racist attitudes since they came out of the womb, I can tell you that trying to be an unbiased good person is a constant daily struggle.

When I'm out jogging, and I see a black guy coming at me on the same side of the street, what do I do? I wave and say hello just like I would anyone else. But in my mind, for a split second, there's a fear he's going to do something to me. Intellectually I know that's horrible. But I've grown up in an environment that has conditioned me to think that way for four decades. And as much as I don't want to think it, I'd be lying if I said I didn't think it.

I do everything in my power to shield my kids from the prejudices I grew up with. I am quick to correct them if they stray. I consciously try to treat everyone as equals no matter race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I'd hope someone would judge me on those things, and not the innate biases that were instilled in me through my upbringing and my privilege.

There are probably posts on this very forum from 5 years ago that, if I were a celebrity, would get me canceled in a heartbeat. People change. Biases are going to be there. We need to judge people by their actions. Everybody's fighting their own war.

[Kurth]

"persistent pattern"?

How many times has Biden spoken off script? 10k? 20k? And you provided 3 examples. That you find that a "persistent pattern" is likely far more telling of your prejudices than his.

I have quoted three and I think that is too many. Can I ask how many racist comments you think are OK?

That's your purity test? < 3 possibly racist comments? So who passes? Infants?

Going to be difficult to find a candidate.

If you believe that you cannot make a horrible comment without something horrible in your heart, and you consider that this man is aspiring to lead African Americans as President I don't think a high standard is that bad.

If you believe that racist comments are natural outgrowth of speech I would expect you to make all manner of allowances for every human who makes them all the time.

As long as you don't want it both ways I'm content.

I don’t believe you are posting from a place of good faith or sincerity, so I don’t give a rat’s ass about your level of contentment.

This is a stupid tangent.

[Yojimbo]

"persistent pattern"?

How many times has Biden spoken off script? 10k? 20k? And you provided 3 examples. That you find that a "persistent pattern" is likely far more telling of your prejudices than his.

I have quoted three and I think that is too many. Can I ask how many racist comments you think are OK?

Don't be an ass. I never stated that comments that could be perceived as racist are okay. I said that your jump to calling three comments out of tens of thousands of comments a "persistent pattern" is absurd.

And for the record, I'm going to take the stance that you are racist. I'm willing to bet that if we could look at every comment you ever made since you learned to speak, that we'd find at least 3 comments that could be taken as racist.

I'm reasonably confident that I've probably made some comments that were not fully thought through. Hell, by your measure I'm likely a sexist as well. And likely a lot of other "-ists".

The personal attacks are not really needed here. You could do better, I think.

It was not a personal attack. It was an opinion on how you were behaving.

You chose to ignore the point I was making and then imply I was stating something completely different. I would like to think that you could do better as well. You don't want to get called on bad behavior? Then don't do it.

Let me state it clearly then. I do not think racist comments are okay. Zero. None. However, unlike you, I don't believe that making a racist comment automatically makes someone a racist. I take other factors into account. Was it intentional? Is there a pattern? And, yes, I do feel that it takes a lot more than 3 to be a pattern. Unless we are talking about 3 times in a single conversation. But even then, I'd want to look at other conversations.

I can't imagine what kind of a life that you have. You clearly see things in black or white. Zero tolerance. Best of luck with that.

So, my return volley of your own use of numbers to ask what your acceptable parameters of racism resulted in your calling me an "ass".
Yet, I'm off base for suggesting (with 3 examples in his own words) that Biden might be a racist?

It sounds like you have more of a hair trigger with me, than I do with Biden. Would it be OK if I'd said that Biden was not a racist but he acts like one sometimes when he we wanders away from his prepared remarks? Maybe that is where we are missing each other.

[TheMix]

"persistent pattern"?

How many times has Biden spoken off script? 10k? 20k? And you provided 3 examples. That you find that a "persistent pattern" is likely far more telling of your prejudices than his.

I have quoted three and I think that is too many. Can I ask how many racist comments you think are OK?

Don't be an ass. I never stated that comments that could be perceived as racist are okay. I said that your jump to calling three comments out of tens of thousands of comments a "persistent pattern" is absurd.

And for the record, I'm going to take the stance that you are racist. I'm willing to bet that if we could look at every comment you ever made since you learned to speak, that we'd find at least 3 comments that could be taken as racist.

I'm reasonably confident that I've probably made some comments that were not fully thought through. Hell, by your measure I'm likely a sexist as well. And likely a lot of other "-ists".

The personal attacks are not really needed here. You could do better, I think.

It was not a personal attack. It was an opinion on how you were behaving.

You chose to ignore the point I was making and then imply I was stating something completely different. I would like to think that you could do better as well. You don't want to get called on bad behavior? Then don't do it.

Let me state it clearly then. I do not think racist comments are okay. Zero. None. However, unlike you, I don't believe that making a racist comment automatically makes someone a racist. I take other factors into account. Was it intentional? Is there a pattern? And, yes, I do feel that it takes a lot more than 3 to be a pattern. Unless we are talking about 3 times in a single conversation. But even then, I'd want to look at other conversations.

I can't imagine what kind of a life that you have. You clearly see things in black or white. Zero tolerance. Best of luck with that.

So, my return volley of your own use of numbers to ask what your acceptable parameters of racism resulted in your calling me an "ass".
Yet, I'm off base for suggesting (with 3 examples in his own words) that Biden might be a racist?

It sounds like you have more of a hair trigger with me, than I do with Biden. Would it be OK if I'd said that Biden was not a racist but he acts like one sometimes when he we wanders away from his prepared remarks? Maybe that is where we are missing each other.

Seriously?

Let me try this again.

- You said Biden exhibits a "persistent pattern" of racist comments when off script. Then provided 3 examples.

- I said that three examples hardly constitutes a "persistent pattern". (Note: my issue was with the "persistent pattern" characterization.)

- Your response was to ask how many racist comments are OK. WTF? You implied that I think that racist comments are okay. That my only issue is the number. That's incredibly offensive. So, yeah, I got upset. You basically called me a racist. And I told you to stop being an ass. Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Would it be OK if I'd said that Biden was not a racist but he acts like one sometimes when he we wanders away from his prepared remarks?

That's perfectly valid. And I'd agree. "Sometimes" is a far sight from "persistent pattern". Depending on 1) how often he does this, and 2) his behavior when called on it (does he apologize? does he show remorse?), it's even likely that this is something that he needs to work harder on overcoming.

[Zarathud]

So, my return volley of your own use of numbers to ask what your acceptable parameters of racism resulted in your calling me an "ass".
Yet, I'm off base for suggesting (with 3 examples in his own words) that Biden might be a racist?

Off base is just the start, Yo. Your straw-man argument is stupid, non-responsive, and in bad faith.

Rip and msduncan made better arguments in their day.

If you are willing to call someone racist for 3 marginal quotes, you deserve to be shamed and derided. And tarred and feathered, if we want to go old school.

[Yojimbo]

That's perfectly valid. And I'd agree. "Sometimes" is a far sight from "persistent pattern". Depending on 1) how often he does this, and 2) his behavior when called on it (does he apologize? does he show remorse?), it's even likely that this is something that he needs to work harder on overcoming.

OK, so I did not intend to call you a racist - I thought you were the one who wanted to quantify this thing by watering down his "bad" comments by introducing the balance of his "good" comments. In my mind that brought statistics into play and the next logical step was to establish a ratio or threshold. What was logical to me in "debate mode" was hurtful to you - my bad for not having human empathy.

I think entirely too many people are calling each other racist in American today and I'm not interested in being that guy for you - I apologize if I was that guy today.

[Unagi]

This is kinda ironic, no?

[Yojimbo]

So, my return volley of your own use of numbers to ask what your acceptable parameters of racism resulted in your calling me an "ass".
Yet, I'm off base for suggesting (with 3 examples in his own words) that Biden might be a racist?

Off base is just the start, Yo. Your straw-man argument is stupid, non-responsive, and in bad faith.

Rip and msduncan made better arguments in their day.

If you are willing to call someone racist for 3 marginal quotes, you deserve to be shamed and derided. And tarred and feathered, if we want to go old school.

I suspect if I was calling Trump a racist and giving 1 quote (like Biden does all the time) it would be OK?

[Holman]

One thing I'm certain of:

If Joe Biden gaffed his way into something mildly offensive and a reporter called him on it, Biden would be the first to own the error and ask to be educated about it.

If Donald Trump Stephen-Millered his way into a howlingly racist talking point and and a reporter called him on it, Trump would triple-down on the offense before storming out of the interview and taking to Twitter to call for the reporter to be fired.

[Yojimbo]

One thing I'm certain of:

If Joe Biden gaffed his way into something mildly offensive and a reporter called him on it, Biden would be the first to own the error and ask to be educated about it.

If Donald Trump Stephen-Millered his way into a howlingly racist talking point and and a reporter called him on it, Trump would triple-down on the offense before storming out of the interview and taking to Twitter to call for the reporter to be fired.

OK, I can't actually argue with any of that. Trump lacks gravitas and grace.

[TheMix]

I can't even parse that last statement. What does "like Biden does all the time" mean? Do you mean that Biden is calling Trump a racist frequently and providing a quote as an example? If so, unless the example is always the same, then your "all the time" would strongly suggest that Trump is making enough racist comments to be firmly in the "persistent pattern" camp.

If you are talking about the behavior of folks on this forum, then you just need to go back and do some reading. There are PLENTY of examples in this forum alone of Trump saying and doing racist things. We are way beyond bothering with counting examples with Trump.

Which in and of itself should answer your question. You don't even have to provide an example for Trump. Short of invoking Issie, I would easily believe that there are at least 200 examples of Trump's racist behavior in this forum. I would treat any example that I haven't seen before as just another one for the pile. For myself, I would not require that the pile be provided every time.

But that evidence does not exist for Biden. So, yes, I think it's fair to expect people to want more than a few examples if you want to press your case.

[Holman]

OK, I can't actually argue with any of that. Trump lacks gravitas and grace.

We've been opposing racism as a serious issue, and now the problem is "gravitas and grace"? What?

[Alefroth]

I remember when we used to debate whether Trump was racist, or just acted that way to get the support of racists. Oh 2018, I miss you.

[TheMix]

I remember when we used to debate whether Trump was racist, or just acted that way to get the support of racists. Oh 2018, I miss you.

I almost added that at the beginning we debated about Trump. But I couldn't remember that far back. It feels like he's always been racist.

Edit: That is, it feels like we've always known for sure, without a doubt, that he was racist. (On reflection I remembered that there have been stories about his racism for decades. But I didn't pay any attention to him prior to recent history. So I didn't "know" it.)

[Kraken]

As someone who grew up in the south and was essentially immersed in racist attitudes since they came out of the womb, I can tell you that trying to be an unbiased good person is a constant daily struggle.

I was raised openly and unapologetically racist, unaware that there was anything wrong with that. The most liberal sentiment in my family was my mom's contention that we ought to be nice to those people because they couldn't help being born that way. I didn't even learn to hide it until I was in my 20s, and I didn't actually start revising my opinions until quite some time later -- slowly, grudgingly, in fits and starts. I'm still not the most woke person and never will be, but I've come a long way from where I started and I'm aware of my lingering biases, and trying to exorcise them. BLM has been a good catalyst for that.

Y'all wouldn't have liked me as a young man. Like you said, one wouldn't have to dig very deep to find offensive sentiments in my past...and not even my very distant past.

[Yojimbo]

OK, I can't actually argue with any of that. Trump lacks gravitas and grace.

We've been opposing racism as a serious issue, and now the problem is "gravitas and grace"? What?

Sorry, I was not clear. The difference between the two men that you illustrated so clearly is that both make racist comments but only one of them possibly has the grace to admit his failings and the gravitas to adjust his behavior in order to move forward. If fighting racism was your only 'serious issue' for a Presidential election I cannot imagine any of the white old men discussed here would work for you.

[Holman]

I remember when we used to debate whether Trump was racist, or just acted that way to get the support of racists. Oh 2018, I miss you.

I almost added that at the beginning we debated about Trump. But I couldn't remember that far back. It feels like he's always been racist.

Edit: That is, it feels like we've always known for sure, without a doubt, that he was racist. (On reflection I remembered that there have been stories about his racism for decades. But I didn't pay any attention to him prior to recent history. So I didn't "know" it.)

Still, there was a whole journalistic mood during the 2016 campaign suggesting that Trump was actually a savvy out-of-the-box provocateur owning the libs and that no one who had been such a successful NYC businessman could hold such backwoods attitudes. Evidence: photo of Trump with this or that black celebrity.

Critics calling him a racist were dismissed as unserious for playing the race card.

[Holman]

OK, I can't actually argue with any of that. Trump lacks gravitas and grace.

We've been opposing racism as a serious issue, and now the problem is "gravitas and grace"? What?

Sorry, I was not clear. The difference between the two men that you illustrated so clearly is that both make racist comments but only one of them possibly has the grace to admit his failings and the gravitas to adjust his behavior in order to move forward. If fighting racism was your only 'serious issue' for a Presidential election I cannot imagine any of the white old men discussed here would work for you.

I find that I too don’t believe you are posting from a place of good faith or sincerity.

[Unagi]

OK, I can't actually argue with any of that. Trump lacks gravitas and grace.

We've been opposing racism as a serious issue, and now the problem is "gravitas and grace"? What?

Sorry, I was not clear. The difference between the two men that you illustrated so clearly is that both make racist comments but only one of them possibly has the grace to admit his failings and the gravitas to adjust his behavior in order to move forward. If fighting racism was your only 'serious issue' for a Presidential election I cannot imagine any of the white old men discussed here would work for you.

One is a serious fucking joke though, if fighting racism was your only serious issue.

Do you understand which of the two?

[Zarathud]

If fighting racism was your only 'serious issue' for a Presidential election I cannot imagine any of the white old men discussed here would work for you.

You don’t get to “both sides are racist” the man who was a respectful partner as Vice President to the first Black President with the man who questioned his citizenship.

That’s bullshit.

Stupid bullshit that is worthy only of derision. If you had ANY credibility, you’ve exhausted it.

[malchior]

Still, there was a whole journalistic mood during the 2016 campaign suggesting that Trump was actually a savvy out-of-the-box provocateur owning the libs and that no one who had been such a successful NYC businessman could hold such backwoods attitudes. Evidence: photo of Trump with this or that black celebrity.

Critics calling him a racist were dismissed as unserious for playing the race card.

While those of us in the NYC metro area all looked at each other, "Everyone has to know he is super racist, right? I mean holy shit...the Central Park 5 shit alone..." He rose to power on the back of Birtherism and demonizing Mexicans. The media was just completely derelict and *still* doesn't recognize how disastrous they were in 2016.

[Jaymann]

Still, there was a whole journalistic mood during the 2016 campaign suggesting that Trump was actually a savvy out-of-the-box provocateur owning the libs and that no one who had been such a successful NYC businessman could hold such backwoods attitudes. Evidence: photo of Trump with this or that black celebrity.

Critics calling him a racist were dismissed as unserious for playing the race card.

While those of us in the NYC metro area all looked at each other, "Everyone has to know he is super racist, right? I mean holy shit...the Central Park 5 shit alone..." He rose to power on the back of Birtherism and demonizing Mexicans. The media was just completely derelict and *still* doesn't recognize how disastrous they were in 2016.

Yeah, those idiots wanted a horse race because they thought they had Secretariat against Foolish Pleasure, but Foolish Pleasure won.

[RunningMn9]

OK, I can't actually argue with any of that. Trump lacks gravitas and grace.

He’s also a demonstrably racist human garbage person.

[Yojimbo]

I had to go look up the Central Park Five - thank you for the education. Trump being Trump, yuck. I heard part of an NPR story on this years ago but never got the whole story.

It is 100% unfair of me to expect you all to see Biden as racist, we just don't share enough perspective. Many of you have invested a lot of emotion and energy in his campaign. But surely you see that calling him: "a mostly nice man who says racist things when no one is minding him" is not any kind of streatch.

But Biden and the Democrat Party highlight the hypocrisy of the cancel culture. Biden gets a pass for whatever he says for the "greater good". The Democrat Party has done more to hinder the rights of African Americans than any organization save maybe the kkk - but I bet the klan never had the power that the DNC wields. Up until the 1960s the Democrat Party was openly racist and suppressing reforms. But the Democrat party gets a pass because it has changed! No one in that party today would ever be guilty of acting like a racist - except the most important Leader in the whole organization who (quotes above) says terrible things about African Americans sometimes.

I know that you all don't see this at all. Or you are in "the ends justify the means" mode at this point. With respect to you all and Mr. Takei, I have held my nose and voted for who my party told me to before - it did not help me sleep at night.

[Zarathud]

You have no idea what you’re talking about, Yo. Your posts show a motive to divide based on poor arguments.

Your personal crusade against cancel culture is contradicted by your desire to apply it against Biden. But it’s nothing new. Public shaming for unacceptable behavior has deep roots back to feudal and puritan society. Clutch your pearls elsewhere.

My wife’s family lived in Delaware for years. They’ve met Biden, even had him stop by their house. He’s a politician but a decent human being. Listen to him talk, and it’s evident. He’s a creature of his generation, yes, but he’s walked the walk on racial issues for well over a decade. Actions, not innuendo, matter.

Black Americans are Biden’s biggest supporters and base, and you are going to fail to convince them otherwise. They know him, you don’t. What’s your agenda, Yojimbo?

[LordMortis]

I had to go look up the Central Park Five - thank you for the education. Trump being Trump, yuck. I heard part of an NPR story on this years ago but never got the whole story.

It is 100% unfair of me to expect you all to see Biden as racist, we just don't share enough perspective. Many of you have invested a lot of emotion and energy in his campaign. But surely you see that calling him: "a mostly nice man who says racist things when no one is minding him" is not any kind of streatch.

But Biden and the Democrat Party highlight the hypocrisy of the cancel culture. Biden gets a pass for whatever he says for the "greater good". The Democrat Party has done more to hinder the rights of African Americans than any organization save maybe the kkk - but I bet the klan never had the power that the DNC wields. Up until the 1960s the Democrat Party was openly racist and suppressing reforms. But the Democrat party gets a pass because it has changed! No one in that party today would ever be guilty of acting like a racist - except the most important Leader in the whole organization who (quotes above) says terrible things about African Americans sometimes.

I know that you all don't see this at all. Or you are in "the ends justify the means" mode at this point. With respect to you all and Mr. Takei, I have held my nose and voted for who my party told me to before - it did not help me sleep at night.

From the other side of things, being a more conservative tending refuge, I'm much more comfortable holding my nose Biden now than I was for Clinton in 2016. That is in no small part from having seen Trump get elected after watching his power and authority swell in 2015. And part of that comfort is on the back of how he has fanned the flames of racial disparity often expressed policing by racial injustice and in changing federal law enforcement and regulation to target the poor and desperate which disproportionately affects those who aren't me (aka a lower middle class middle aged white guy)

I share your distrust of a democratic party that chose Biden as the best in the field, that he is old white guy who was raised with the old white guy narrative which includes fighting his own prejudices. But I do get a sense the Biden is fighting them and trying to be a better person and the alternative Trump, who... is not... I still sit with my desire to have had Booker or Beto as my choices from the field, but a choice between Biden and Trump, isn't a choice. I'll revisit that stance in 2018 and 2020, though the democrats have along way to further fall or the GOP needs a miracle for me generally turn away. In the meantime, I sill believe my voice is best heard in the primaries (something I am very disappointed to have not participated in this cycle)

[stessier]

I had to go look up the Central Park Five - thank you for the education. Trump being Trump, yuck. I heard part of an NPR story on this years ago but never got the whole story.

It is 100% unfair of me to expect you all to see Biden as racist, we just don't share enough perspective. Many of you have invested a lot of emotion and energy in his campaign. But surely you see that calling him: "a mostly nice man who says racist things when no one is minding him" is not any kind of streatch.

But Biden and the Democrat Party highlight the hypocrisy of the cancel culture. Biden gets a pass for whatever he says for the "greater good". The Democrat Party has done more to hinder the rights of African Americans than any organization save maybe the kkk - but I bet the klan never had the power that the DNC wields. Up until the 1960s the Democrat Party was openly racist and suppressing reforms. But the Democrat party gets a pass because it has changed! No one in that party today would ever be guilty of acting like a racist - except the most important Leader in the whole organization who (quotes above) says terrible things about African Americans sometimes.

I know that you all don't see this at all. Or you are in "the ends justify the means" mode at this point. With respect to you all and Mr. Takei, I have held my nose and voted for who my party told me to before - it did not help me sleep at night.

So I don't understand what your point is. Are you Black? Are you pointing out how this choice is effecting you personally?

I'm listening to a lot of Black voices now - reading books, listening to interviews, podcasts - and if so, yours is a minority opinion. The leaders I'm listening to strongly support Biden, are happy with his choice for Vice President, and are continuing to work to make sure they maintain their influence as Biden builds out his team.

Feel free to share some personal stories of how this is effecting you, but just spouting old history which has no bearing on the current situation really isn't moving the conversation forward.

[Exodor]

The Democrat Party has done more to hinder the rights of African Americans than any organization save maybe the kkk -

....Really?




You remind me of my old college buddy I follow on twitter who's a big Yang supporter. He's been whining about Biden since about February and I finally had to unfollow him. He just can't seem to grasp that the choice isn't between Trump and some mythical perfect candidate, it's a binary choice between Trump and Biden. And for anyone who wants progressive policies that should be an absolute no-brainer.

[Yojimbo]

The Democrat Party has done more to hinder the rights of African Americans than any organization save maybe the kkk -

....Really?




You remind me of my old college buddy I follow on twitter who's a big Yang supporter. He's been whining about Biden since about February and I finally had to unfollow him. He just can't seem to grasp that the choice isn't between Trump and some mythical perfect candidate, it's a binary choice between Trump and Biden. And for anyone who wants progressive policies that should be an absolute no-brainer.

Really, really. All of those Civil War statues that were/are getting torn down was/is (IMO) an internal Democrat issue since all of those people evolved into Democrats. We used to teach this extensively in school - like for 2 years. This can all be looked up easily.

And, no, I will not be paying you back rent from uniy.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Really, really. All of those Civil War statues that were/are getting torn down was/is (IMO) an internal Democrat issue since all of those people evolved into Democrats.

Where is the extra large rolley-eyes emoji when you need it?

[Jaymann]

There is a reason all the old southern Democrats are now Republicans.

[malchior]

This is ill-advised framing. Yes the party that pushed 'racist' policy flipped -- cynically to put a point on it -- but coalitions change all the time. 2016 showed the poorer white mostly and sometimes pro-Union people aligned with the Republicans in certain states even though it was taking money out of their own pockets. Lincoln freed the slaves, etc. And his political 'descendant' now occupies the WH and is the most openly racist President in modern history. Anyway it is pointless to make broad statements like this.

[noxiousdog]

The Democrat Party has done more to hinder the rights of African Americans than any organization save maybe the kkk -

....Really?




You remind me of my old college buddy I follow on twitter who's a big Yang supporter. He's been whining about Biden since about February and I finally had to unfollow him. He just can't seem to grasp that the choice isn't between Trump and some mythical perfect candidate, it's a binary choice between Trump and Biden. And for anyone who wants progressive policies that should be an absolute no-brainer.

Really, really. All of those Civil War statues that were/are getting torn down was/is (IMO) an internal Democrat issue since all of those people evolved into Democrats. We used to teach this extensively in school - like for 2 years. This can all be looked up easily.

And, no, I will not be paying you back rent from uniy.

But who is trying to prevent it _now_? I don't care what a party platform was 100 years ago.

[Yojimbo]

So I don't understand what your point is. Are you Black? Are you pointing out how this choice is effecting you personally?

I'm listening to a lot of Black voices now - reading books, listening to interviews, podcasts - and if so, yours is a minority opinion. The leaders I'm listening to strongly support Biden, are happy with his choice for Vice President, and are continuing to work to make sure they maintain their influence as Biden builds out his team.

Feel free to share some personal stories of how this is effecting you, but just spouting old history which has no bearing on the current situation really isn't moving the conversation forward.

Gosh, you flatter me with your personal interest in me (know that I am very much attached to another, please). Do you want to check my head shape too - so that you can know more about how much my political opinion matters? I'm a US citizen (Trump might not think I'm "Natural Born") who has opinions - I hope that can be enough for you.

[Yojimbo]

But who is trying to prevent it _now_? I don't care what a party platform was 100 years ago.

Who is? I suspect anyone who engages in racist behavior, honestly. That is why "a few frank comments" by Biden matter to me at all.

[noxiousdog]

But who is trying to prevent it _now_? I don't care what a party platform was 100 years ago.

Who is? I suspect anyone who engages in racist behavior, honestly. That is why "a few frank comments" by Biden matter to me at all.

That's convenient. To echo others, I find that I don’t believe you are posting from a place of good faith or sincerity.

[The Meal]

But Biden and the Democrat Party highlight the hypocrisy of the cancel culture. Biden gets a pass for whatever he says for the "greater good". The Democrat Party has done more to hinder the rights of African Americans than any organization save maybe the kkk - but I bet the klan never had the power that the DNC wields. Up until the 1960s the Democrat Party was openly racist and suppressing reforms. But the Democrat party gets a pass because it has changed! No one in that party today would ever be guilty of acting like a racist - except the most important Leader in the whole organization who (quotes above) says terrible things about African Americans sometimes.

I know that you all don't see this at all. Or you are in "the ends justify the means" mode at this point. With respect to you all and Mr. Takei, I have held my nose and voted for who my party told me to before - it did not help me sleep at night.

You show your tell too openly.