Grifman wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:33 pmGenocide has a specific meaning, and you dilute the horror of the word by applying it to what Trump did.
Yeah, even if 3 million Americans end up dying from COVID....that's 1% of our population. That's nowhere remotely near genocidal levels.
Technically, it would depend on who that 1% were - if they comprised a large share of an ethnic group, then it could well be genocidal (especially if it were intentionally targeted or known in advance).
But while it has disproportionately affected some ethnic groups (like 2-3x more likely to affect them), it isn't anywhere close to genocidal levels.
Grifman wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:36 pmThe only medium term hope is that Trump at some point in the next 4 years either dies or is indicted for some sort of tax/financial fraud which then will absorb most of his limited intellectual capacity. Otherwise, he will continue his grip on the party.
Or - hear me out on this - we start jailing and hanging seditious politicians. Aggressive, sure. But this is getting absurd. Calling for the invalidation of votes for "political expediency" is unacceptable and even flirting with the idea should be hammered down. I'm confident in saying revolutions have started over less. That these morons want to casually toss out ideas antithetical to their sworn oath and our democracy cannot stand. If we allow this to go unchecked, we're just punting to the next crisis and I'm confident the next one will be worse.
This system has shown us that it is incapable of dealing with a major political party radicalizing. That isn't even a criticism of the system because maybe no system could but this system encouraged the behavior in its reliance in norms. And now this morning Trump absolutely was saying scary shit this morning about how he wanted to just save America. When the runway runs out on him it is going to be ugly. Very ugly. And the behavior of the party members is to hope it just ends peacefully. It's pure madness right now. No one will be held accountable. Nothing will be done to discourage him, them, or this type of behavior.
At this point my biggest worry is what happens on January 6, when Congress holds a session to certify the electoral college vote, presided over by Mike Pence, and some seditious bastard makes a motion to nullify the electoral college vote. I saw previous sessions, presided by Al Gore and Joe Biden, where any such BS talk was slammed down. What happens if Pence allows a vote on the motion?
Jaymann wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:35 pm
At this point my biggest worry is what happens on January 6, when Congress holds a session to certify the electoral college vote, presided over by Mike Pence, and some seditious bastard makes a motion to nullify the electoral college vote. I saw previous sessions, presided by Al Gore and Joe Biden, where any such BS talk was slammed down. What happens if Pence allows a vote on the motion?
malchior wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:24 pmThat isn't even a criticism of the system because maybe no system could but this system encouraged the behavior in its reliance in norms.
There are lots of systems that can cope with significant portions of the population radicalizing.
Just not any that are remotely democratic. This is what people mean when they say democracy is messy.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
Jaymann wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:35 pm
At this point my biggest worry is what happens on January 6, when Congress holds a session to certify the electoral college vote, presided over by Mike Pence, and some seditious bastard makes a motion to nullify the electoral college vote. I saw previous sessions, presided by Al Gore and Joe Biden, where any such BS talk was slammed down. What happens if Pence allows a vote on the motion?
Has Randy Rainbow spoofed "Tradition!" yet? [edit: yes]
"Better to talk to people than communicate via tweet." — Elontra
Jaymann wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:35 pm
At this point my biggest worry is what happens on January 6, when Congress holds a session to certify the electoral college vote, presided over by Mike Pence, and some seditious bastard makes a motion to nullify the electoral college vote. I saw previous sessions, presided by Al Gore and Joe Biden, where any such BS talk was slammed down. What happens if Pence allows a vote on the motion?
As weird as it seems, I don't believe a GOP senate majority would even go along with their insane House colleagues here. How many senators have signed on to the scheme? Not many openly IIRC.
I know that Romney and Toomey have called for everyone to accept the election, and I believe some others have as well.
Grifman wrote:Genocide has a specific meaning, and you dilute the horror of the word by applying it to what Trump did. He was criminally negligent, IMO, but that's not even close to genocide.
Point taken. Just making a point that Trump's "criminal negligence" killed thousands of people, and those people could be classified under a certain group. It was never my intent to compare it to any specific actual genocide, hence my phrase "a form of."
Little Raven wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:17 pmI'm honestly struggling to come up with an actionable indictment. What they're doing is awful...but I'm not sure it's illegal.
Lawyers can argue about laws. These clowns are absolutely in violation:
U.S. Constitution, Article VI, clause 3 wrote:The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution...
The oath:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.
They've clearly violated it. Let's all agree on how to deal with it - something stronger than a finger wag. I want them dangling from a rope, but I'm not unreasonable; I can compromise.
Grifman wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:36 pmThe only medium term hope is that Trump at some point in the next 4 years either dies or is indicted for some sort of tax/financial fraud which then will absorb most of his limited intellectual capacity. Otherwise, he will continue his grip on the party.
Or - hear me out on this - we start jailing and hanging seditious politicians. Aggressive, sure. But this is getting absurd. Calling for the invalidation of votes for "political expediency" is unacceptable and even flirting with the idea should be hammered down. I'm confident in saying revolutions have started over less. That these morons want to casually toss out ideas antithetical to their sworn oath and our democracy cannot stand. If we allow this to go unchecked, we're just punting to the next crisis and I'm confident the next one will be worse.
The legal theories here are of course ridiculous but are not in and of themselves “seditious” because the Republicans are using the courts, which is an entirely legal manner in which to proceed. It would only be sedition if they started operating extra legally, setting up their own courts or laws, or using armed force to oppose the legal authorities. As long as they go to court and abide by the court decision, you can’t legally say they are guilty of sedition, even though “in spirit” they are.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Grifman wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:56 pmThe legal theories here are of course ridiculous but are not in and of themselves “seditious” because the Republicans are using the courts, which is an entirely legal manner in which to proceed. It would only be sedition if they started operating extra legally, setting up their own courts or laws, or using armed force to oppose the legal authorities. As long as they go to court and abide by the court decision, you can’t legally say they are guilty of sedition, even though “in spirit” they are.
That's...not a take I've heard or seen, but I'll run with it. Let's go after the seditious lawyers then that agreed to file these documents with the courts. Better: the lawyers that filed these suits should be disbarred, stripped of their authority and removed from any public office they hold.
Grifman wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:56 pmThe legal theories here are of course ridiculous but are not in and of themselves “seditious” because the Republicans are using the courts, which is an entirely legal manner in which to proceed. It would only be sedition if they started operating extra legally, setting up their own courts or laws, or using armed force to oppose the legal authorities. As long as they go to court and abide by the court decision, you can’t legally say they are guilty of sedition, even though “in spirit” they are.
That's...not a take I've heard or seen, but I'll run with it. Let's go after the seditious lawyers then that agreed to file these documents with the courts. Better: the lawyers that filed these suits should be disbarred, stripped of their authority and removed from any public office they hold.
No real difference between the lawyers and those that hire them. Seriously, if this was so legally clear and could be done so easily, then why isnt it being done? Ask your self that question.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Grifman wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:37 pm
No real difference between the lawyers and those that hire them. Seriously, if this was so legally clear and could be done so easily, then why isnt it being done? Ask your self that question.
Because in the age of Trump, no politician is held to account? I guess I could start there. Remember what they did to Al Franken? Not saying it it was good or bad, but I'm pretty confident in saying this is demonstrably worse. He should have just simply re-registered as a (R) - he would have been fine.
Grifman wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:37 pm
No real difference between the lawyers and those that hire them. Seriously, if this was so legally clear and could be done so easily, then why isnt it being done? Ask your self that question.
Because in the age of Trump, no politician is held to account? I guess I could start there. Remember what they did to Al Franken? Not saying it it was good or bad, but I'm pretty confident in saying this is demonstrably worse. He should have just simply re-registered as a (R) - he would have been fine.
We were arguing sedition, weren’t we? Now you move the goalposts. Sure, I’d love to hold them to account in some way, but I’d like rainbows and puppies too. As long as their constituents are brainwashed Trumpers, and as long as they don’t actually break the law, not much can be done.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
I'm not moving any goalposts - I'm just pointing out that magically Al Franken was held to account for his actions and in doing so, resigned. We can quibble over the details, but I'm going to say signing documents trying to invalidate the votes of millions of Americans is magnitudes of order worse than what Franken answered for.
I refuse - refuse to believe that what they did is a shoulder shrug moment. If it is, then we're done here in the colonies; turn off the lights. Or we're headed for civil war. Maybe both.
Just one time - once - I want consequences for this folks. As a citizen, I'm offended. As a public servant, I'm offended. As a public official, I'm offended.
Powell describes Spyder in court filings as a former “Military Intelligence expert,” and his testimony is offered to support one of her central claims. In a declaration filed in four states, Spyder alleges that publicly available data about server traffic shows that voting systems in the United States were “certainly compromised by rogue actors, such as Iran and China.”
Records show that Merritt is an Army veteran and that he enrolled in a training program at the 305th Military Intelligence Battalion, the unit he cites in his declaration. But he never completed the entry-level training course, according to Meredith Mingledorff, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Army Intelligence Center of Excellence, which includes the battalion.
“He kept washing out of courses,” said Mingledorff, citing his education records. “He’s not an intelligence analyst.”
His separation papers, which he provided to The Post, make no mention of intelligence training. They show that he spent the bulk of his decade in the Army as a wheeled vehicle mechanic. He deployed to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, where he said he worked in security and route clearance. He held the rank of specialist when he was honorably discharged in 2013, having received several commendations.
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:01 pmWe can quibble over the details, but I'm going to say signing documents trying to invalidate the votes of millions of Americans is magnitudes of order worse than what Franken answered for.
And maybe it is, but it's not illegal.
It's not illegal to believe crazy things. It's not illegal to say crazy things. It's not even illegal to ask a court to rule on your crazy thoughts...it's just a very expensive way to get laughed at.
And Trump and his lawyers HAVE been laughed at. Every time. The system is holding.
But you SHOULD be offended. Never vote for one of these clowns again.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
Smoove_B wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:01 pm
I'm not moving any goalposts - I'm just pointing out that magically Al Franken was held to account for his actions and in doing so, resigned. We can quibble over the details, but I'm going to say signing documents trying to invalidate the votes of millions of Americans is magnitudes of order worse than what Franken answered for.
I refuse - refuse to believe that what they did is a shoulder shrug moment. If it is, then we're done here in the colonies; turn off the lights. Or we're headed for civil war. Maybe both.
Just one time - once - I want consequences for this folks. As a citizen, I'm offended. As a public servant, I'm offended. As a public official, I'm offended.
I am offended and as upset as you are, and I would love to see some consequences for what I consider to be a violation of their oaths to the Constitution. But you have as of yet not stated a realistic way for those consequences to take place of what those consequences realistically should be. Charging sedition is not going to work.
Last edited by Grifman on Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
If it makes you feel any better, though, Smoove - Ken Paxton has almost certainly done several illegal things, and since he didn't deliver for Trump, I'd be surprised if Trump decides to pardon him. I think there's a very good chance he ends up behind bars - the FBI has not been subtle about hinting that they're on to him.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
Little Raven wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:41 pm
If it makes you feel any better, though, Smoove - Ken Paxton has almost certainly done several illegal things, and since he didn't deliver for Trump, I'd be surprised if Trump decides to pardon him. I think there's a very good chance he ends up behind bars - the FBI has not been subtle about hinting that they're on to him.
The smart thing for the FBI would be to file charges on 1/21, when Paxton is out of range of an Agolf pardon.
Kraken wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:59 pmI wonder if the Union would try to preserve itself again, or just say good riddance to bad trash. Enjoy your Gilead.
No one gets to leave, no matter how happy some people would be to see others go. We're all in this together.
/. "She climbed backwards out her
\/ window into Outside Over There."
Powell describes Spyder in court filings as a former “Military Intelligence expert,” and his testimony is offered to support one of her central claims. In a declaration filed in four states, Spyder alleges that publicly available data about server traffic shows that voting systems in the United States were “certainly compromised by rogue actors, such as Iran and China.”
Records show that Merritt is an Army veteran and that he enrolled in a training program at the 305th Military Intelligence Battalion, the unit he cites in his declaration. But he never completed the entry-level training course, according to Meredith Mingledorff, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Army Intelligence Center of Excellence, which includes the battalion.
“He kept washing out of courses,” said Mingledorff, citing his education records. “He’s not an intelligence analyst.”
His separation papers, which he provided to The Post, make no mention of intelligence training. They show that he spent the bulk of his decade in the Army as a wheeled vehicle mechanic. He deployed to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, where he said he worked in security and route clearance. He held the rank of specialist when he was honorably discharged in 2013, having received several commendations.
Ten years in the Army and didn't make corporal?
SPC is an equivalent rank to CPL for those that are technicians. Still, E-4 after ten years is not good, I made it in three.
